What defines a "Hero"?

[SMac8988]

I am currently working on a section of my homebrew campaign, in which my plays are going to go under trails to show they have what it takes to be hero.

My question is what do my fellow DMs think are the traits i should test them on, and any trial ideas to put them through. I was thinking of having some things from greek mythology; like the impentrable hided lion, stuff like that. But i would like to challenge them more than just with fights. They have been craving a few really good/hard puzzels.

[Coffee_Dragon]

They should have the strength to carry on, the ability to cast their fears aside, and the knowledge that they can survive.

[eastmabl]

A short list:


strong
fast
fresh from the fight
sure
soon
larger than life

[SMac8988]

A short list:


strong
fast
fresh from the fight
sure
soon
larger than life


Lol thanks.

[Ninja_Prawn]

To some extent, the definition of 'hero' depends on the cultural context you're operating in. Some things I might look for:

Willing to sacrifice self for others.
Brave and courageous.
Exceptionally talented/skilled at something.
Has defeated/averted a threat to innocent people or society as a whole.

I wouldn't necessarily say that 'solving puzzles' was a heroic act, unless it achieves/demonstrates one of the above.

[Oramac]

They have been craving a few really good/hard puzzels.

Maybe give them some form of the Prisoner's Dilemma. Or false information they need to interpret correctly to avoid XYZ bad thing happening.

Or something like that.

[Joe the Rat]

Don't forget having a fundamental flaw (hubris is popular) that will lead to their downfalls. Or is that too classical?

Look for a challenge that is tailor made for each character. Something that shows they are the best at something. Or something that forces them to show a trait (not giving up), or overcoming a failing (knowing when to ask for help).

[MrStabby]

A short list:


strong
fast
fresh from the fight
sure
soon
larger than life


Damn it! Now the song wont go away!

[lebefrei]

More than human. Less than godly. They don't necessarily have to save anyone, but they have to be larger than life and revered as such. Especially if you're looking at it from a classical Greek perspective.

These people, through mighty deeds, monsters slain, battles won, hardships overcome are the sort that people in taverns talk about. X wants to be them, Y wants to be with them should apply. They're figures of awe, jealousy, respect, and even fear.

[SMac8988]

I was thinking that they would have been brought before an crypt of a persevered king. And if they roll a history check he will be a great leader, viewed by many as the hero of the people and typically viewed by many leaders as what a truly great king should be. Have it have been so long ago many people have forgotten him. Then if they do exceptional, like upper 20's roll, have them also know of his fall, which lead the country into the last great war lasting nearly 100 years.

I was thinking that they would enter into his crypt and his tome would be in the floor with a large glass top showing the kings rotted body surrounded by several relics of his past; each would be linked to a challenge and upon completion of each task the relic would begin filling the crypt with energy and upon completion of all the king would rise and be their boss fight for this section. I just need to decide on the relics and tasks linked to each.

Figured one for strength - Maybe a fight against a great beast or taming of a powerful monster
But idk about the rest...

[JumboWheat01]

While all these notes are good, we need to remember the societal objectiveness of what qualifies one to be called "hero." A hero to the orcs, for example, would be a vile villain to just about anyone else. A "heroic" goblin is the one who stepped back last.

Heck, even within the same race, what qualifies one person as a hero may not be the same as what qualifies another. It's all such a confusing subject.

[Finieous]

Murderhobo. From Wikipedia: "A classical hero is considered to be a 'warrior who lives and dies in the pursuit of honor' and asserts his or her greatness by "the brilliancy and efficiency with which they kill". Each classical hero's life focuses on fighting, which occurs in war or during an epic quest. Classical heroes are commonly semi-divine and extraordinarily gifted, like Achilles, or, alternatively, are like Beowulf, evolving into heroic characters through their perilous circumstances. While these heroes are incredibly resourceful and skilled, they are often foolhardy, court disaster, risk their followers' lives for trivial matters, and behave arrogantly in a childlike manner."

I replace "pursuit of honor" with "pursuit of treasure and personal glory," but yeah. Murderhobo.

[CantigThimble]

Murderhobo. From Wikipedia: "A classical hero is considered to be a 'warrior who lives and dies in the pursuit of honor' and asserts his or her greatness by "the brilliancy and efficiency with which they kill". Each classical hero's life focuses on fighting, which occurs in war or during an epic quest. Classical heroes are commonly semi-divine and extraordinarily gifted, like Achilles, or, alternatively, are like Beowulf, evolving into heroic characters through their perilous circumstances. While these heroes are incredibly resourceful and skilled, they are often foolhardy, court disaster, risk their followers' lives for trivial matters, and behave arrogantly in a childlike manner."

I replace "pursuit of honor" with "pursuit of treasure and personal glory," but yeah. Murderhobo.

Yeah, Odysseus was basically a murderhobo. Of course, sometimes he used trickery or fame to get what he wanted instead of murder but still.

[Finieous]

I just think the last line so perfectly describes most D&D characters I've known over the past 35 years. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Joeltion]

If you take Greek fluff into account, then a "Hero" is really just anyone with a great destiny. Yeah, most classical heroes had divine blood, but that just pushed towards that greater destiny. "Heroes" in the classical sense, are not just the best, the strongest, or the most gifted, but the "only ones" who can accomplish a certain task.

Only Heracles could complete his works. Only Odyseus could effectively shot his own bow. It's even explicit outside of Greek Mythology: David was so good at shooting pebbles that only he could defeat Goliath. Only Robin Hood could gather and organize the locals to rebel against the Sheriff of Sherwood. Sometimes the hero is just the guy that fits the story so good, that he becomes the only option.

If you wanna involve your players into feeling the Heroic Trip, maybe you should focus on looking what are their quircks, either as players or as characters. Not just the values on their sheets (after all, anyone can have +5 str), but what sets them apart from the crowd. For trials and such, think something like the last part of Harry Potter and the Stoned Philosopher (lol): They could get past the Cerberus because something Hagrid told them. They could get past the chess board because Ron was a chess freak. They could get past the potion test because Hermione was so good at logic. And Harry excelled at fetching shiny things in the ceiling.

Dunno if it helps, but that's what I'd do: fit the story/trials to the characters. Turn them not into just any murderhobo, but the Murderhobo Who Dared and Succeeded.

[Temperjoke]

What you should do is take a common trope idea, like the test never ended. See, you set each individual player with a trial that suits them stupidly well. So well, in fact that they should easily pass it from all appearances. Then, when the group reconvenes after their individual test, you place the proof of their victory within their reach, but only accessible if they are judged to be true "heroes". When they go to take it, the access falls away, or the item crumbles in their hands.

This is the real test. See, the room or guardian or whatever is judging them is watching their response. If their characters immediately turn on each other or decide to not return with their proof, then they are judged to not be heroes. But on the other hand, they support each other and take their loss in stride, and return without their proof or with it damaged, then it's suddenly revealed that the test never ended and the mark of a true hero is seeing their duty through no matter the hardship.

[KorvinStarmast]

A hero is a sandwich (http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-hero-sandwich.htm).

[SMac8988]

What i have so far is:

The great king earned his title by saving the widowed queen from a hidden assasin within her court. Upon saving her she gave him a series of quest to earn her heart, and her kingdom.
First trail is based off int, there will be an Oni disguising himself as a member of the court and the group will have to figure out who and kill it.

Seeing the intelegence of the king, the queen wished to test his physical might, and requested his slay a great beast in the mountains north of her kingdom.
There the group will find a great lion, gonna make a dire lion, with a few females at his side. The lion will be based of the one from hercules, and have resistance to pierce and slashing damage.

Upon returning with the beasts hide, she wished to see how he would deal with a diplomatic problem. In the great ancient forest
To the south, A Ent, the last of his kind in the area, has begun attacking a small logging town and she wished for him to investigate
The group will have to go and speak with the great tree, and decide how they will deal with it.

I am looking for 2 more, one based off a puzzel of sorts and maybe something about speed, or reactions?

What does everyone think?

[Corran]

What defines a hero? Many things. Most of all, imo, a complete lack of awareness of any devious threat. Heroes lack in cautiousness and in common sense.

[Biggstick]

What i have so far is:

The great king earned his title by saving the widowed queen from a hidden assasin within her court. Upon saving her she gave him a series of quest to earn her heart, and her kingdom.
First trail is based off int, there will be an Oni disguising himself as a member of the court and the group will have to figure out who and kill it.

Seeing the intelegence of the king, the queen wished to test his physical might, and requested his slay a great beast in the mountains north of her kingdom.
There the group will find a great lion, gonna make a dire lion, with a few females at his side. The lion will be based of the one from hercules, and have resistance to pierce and slashing damage.

Upon returning with the beasts hide, she wished to see how he would deal with a diplomatic problem. In the great ancient forest
To the south, A Ent, the last of his kind in the area, has begun attacking a small logging town and she wished for him to investigate
The group will have to go and speak with the great tree, and decide how they will deal with it.

I am looking for 2 more, one based off a puzzel of sorts and maybe something about speed, or reactions?

What does everyone think?

For your first trial, it would seem more like it's based off of the Insight of the group, as well as they're ability to discover information about people through other people (usually done through Persuasion, Deception, or Intimidation). I'll give you that they might do a little bit of Investigation if they're searching through the different places that members of the court live, but that feels like a very small part of said trial.

To make a more puzzle based trial for your 4th, the queen might have a great mine that has yet to have been accessed by the kingdom. The reason it's currently useless is that it's inside of a mountain that used to be occupied by dwarves. For some reason the dwarves are no more, but that doesn't mean they didn't leave traps or puzzles behind to keep non-dwarves from getting into their precious mines. Throw in some random fight encounters, but have it primarily be based around the puzzles the dwarves (and whatever else has taken residence in said mine) have put up.

The last trial would piggy back off the 4th trial pretty well. Having proven your negotiation skills, your detective skills, and your strength, there is nothing left to prove to the queen. That is, until a rival kingdom/group comes after your freshly cleared out mines (Or sieging the kingdom, or anything along those lines). The reaction and speed part could involve making decisions quickly in how to defend the kingdom, as well as arriving there quickly and in a timely manner. Hopefully there was a fail-safe of some sort built into the mines (or whatever you're attempting to defend) that can only be accessed by someone who has incredible reflexes and dexterity.

Having defended the kingdom on top of all said trials will surely be enough for the Queen, won't it?

Edited for spelling.

[KorvinStarmast]

What i have so far is:

The great king earned his title by saving the widowed queen from a hidden assasin within her court. Upon saving her she gave him a series of quest to earn her heart, and her kingdom.

She's quite the romantic. King might want to consider a different gal for his queen.

[GraakosGraakos]

Well...

"Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."

Remember those who are lost. Fight for those who cannot fight for themselves. Unite instead of divide; bring men together.

[SMac8988]

I really want to do the oni mission as a psudo simple murder mystery. Having them spend about two hours of play on it. Anyone have any suggestions on how to set that up?

the intellegence one i am making a library that the no one has entered in many years, a long time, due to the many doors the guard the final chamber. Each door will respent a different race, with a riddle written above its head in that races language. In the room their will be books that can help to decode the language if they do not know it. There will also be a opening jn the door, and each room will also have 3 objects. The riddle will be one of the objects and when placed the door will open. There will be 7 ofnthese doors.

Im still stuck on the speed one.

[Sigreid]

There are some stories of trials for Celtic heroes that might fit the bill. No idea if they were original to the legends or something made up along the way, but I doubt it matters.

Run to the top of a mountain with your hands tied behind your back and being chased by the other warriors. You must go under any branch in your path that is the height of your knee or lower and go over any branch as high as your forhead.
12 members of your tribe are selected to throw spears at you. you are unable to move your feet. The spears will be thrown 1 then 2 then 3 etc. until all 12 throw their spears at the same time.
You must successfully hunt and bring down a stag, alone and unarmed.


That's just a few examples I've read, but you get the idea.

[SMac8988]

There are some stories of trials for Celtic heroes that might fit the bill. No idea if they were original to the legends or something made up along the way, but I doubt it matters.

Run to the top of a mountain with your hands tied behind your back and being chased by the other warriors. You must go under any branch in your path that is the height of your knee or lower and go over any branch as high as your forhead.
12 members of your tribe are selected to throw spears at you. you are unable to move your feet. The spears will be thrown 1 then 2 then 3 etc. until all 12 throw their spears at the same time.
You must successfully hunt and bring down a stag, alone and unarmed.


That's just a few examples I've read, but you get the idea.

Love the Last one! !!

[Slipperychicken]

There are some stories of trials for Celtic heroes that might fit the bill. No idea if they were original to the legends or something made up along the way, but I doubt it matters.

12 members of your tribe are selected to throw spears at you. you are unable to move your feet. The spears will be thrown 1 then 2 then 3 etc. until all 12 throw their spears at the same time.


That is 78 spear-throws in total. In 5e you'd have to be pretty high level to have even a chance to survive that. Though it depends on how well-armored you're allowed to be.


If you have AC 12 (reasonable for unarmored) and the tribesmen have just 13 strength and proficiency (like the Guard statblock), you can expect to take 224.5 points of damage. Just to reiterate, if you can endure 225 damage over the course of the trial through healing or other means, you have a ~50% chance of being at 0hp or lower by the end of it. A level 20 fighter with 18 con will have about 204 hit points, and can recover 1d10+20 (25.5), barely scraping over that threshold. This guy is supposed to be a figure whose martial prowess helps shape the destiny of the entire universe, and his chance to pass this trial is slightly better than a coin flip.


If you have AC 18 (more reasonable for armored or an AC-focused barbarian) and the tribesmen are as I described above, expected damage is 118.95. That's a lot more survivable, but still likely to KO a mid-leveled character. If the tribesmen had strength 14 each, they'd deal 163.8 damage on average.

[Sigreid]

That is 78 spear-throws in total. In 5e you'd have to be pretty high level to have even a chance to survive that. Though it depends on how well-armored you're allowed to be.


If you have AC 12 (reasonable for unarmored) and the tribesmen have just 13 strength and proficiency (like the Guard statblock), you can expect to take 224.5 points of damage. Just to reiterate, if you can endure 225 damage over the course of the trial through healing or other means, you have a ~50% chance of being at 0hp or lower by the end of it. A level 20 fighter with 18 con will have about 204 hit points, and can recover 1d10+20 (25.5), barely scraping over that threshold. This guy is supposed to be a figure whose martial prowess helps shape the destiny of the entire universe, and his chance to pass this trial is slightly better than a coin flip.


If you have AC 18 (more reasonable for armored or an AC-focused barbarian) and the tribesmen are as I described above, expected damage is 118.95. That's a lot more survivable, but still likely to KO a mid-leveled character. If the tribesmen had strength 14 each, they'd deal 163.8 damage on average.

Yep, that particular one was attributed to joining the Red Branch, the group Cu Culin was supposed to be a part of.

In general though, you would want a series of tests that demonstrate uncommon skill, courage, determination and self reliance.

[JackPhoenix]

Math

If he's a barbarian (not unreasonable if we're talking about Cú Chulainn), he can also rage for half damage. I guess "not moving your feet" would prevent dodge (unless he's copying Neo's bullet time dodging from Matrix), if not, the opponents are also attacking at disadvantage.

I'm not that good with math, but I think the resulting damage in such case would be something like 30, easily survivable even at lower levels.

[Sigreid]

If he's a barbarian (not unreasonable if we're talking about Cú Chulainn), he can also rage for half damage. I guess "not moving your feet" would prevent dodge (unless he's copying Neo's bullet time dodging from Matrix), if not, the opponents are also attacking at disadvantage.

I'm not that good with math, but I think the resulting damage in such case would be something like 30, easily survivable even at lower levels.

The method on that story was not really duplicateable in RAW 5e. It was described as blocking the spears with his own, and as they were thrown at the same time the more that were thrown the easier it was to set up a chain block, knocking one in to the next into the next, etc.

[Tanarii]

While these heroes are incredibly resourceful and skilled, they are often foolhardy, court disaster, risk their followers' lives for trivial matters, and behave arrogantly in a childlike manner."Wow. Next time someone asks me what the hell D&D is all about, this is going to be my summary. :)

[Zalabim]

The method on that story was not really duplicateable in RAW 5e. It was described as blocking the spears with his own, and as they were thrown at the same time the more that were thrown the easier it was to set up a chain block, knocking one in to the next into the next, etc.

The method I thought for a D&D setting would be to convince enough of them to not try to kill you. Be the one who can unite all 12 of your tribesmen and you'd pass with flying colors. Basically, it looks like a test of endurance, but it's actually a test of persuasion. Of course, then an outsider comes along and actually withstands the whole test and proves he's also a hero.

[Slipperychicken]

The method I thought for a D&D setting would be to convince enough of them to not try to kill you. Be the one who can unite all 12 of your tribesmen and you'd pass with flying colors. Basically, it looks like a test of endurance, but it's actually a test of persuasion. Of course, then an outsider comes along and actually withstands the whole test and proves he's also a hero.

Something about "beg to be spared from your obligations" doesn't quite strike me as the way to separate heroes from non-heroes.

[Gignere]

An assassin only kills someone for lots of gold.

A hero will kill someone for a thanks.

That is the difference between a hero and assassin.

[Vogonjeltz]

I am currently working on a section of my homebrew campaign, in which my plays are going to go under trails to show they have what it takes to be hero.

My question is what do my fellow DMs think are the traits i should test them on, and any trial ideas to put them through. I was thinking of having some things from greek mythology; like the impentrable hided lion, stuff like that. But i would like to challenge them more than just with fights. They have been craving a few really good/hard puzzels.

You could have them enter a mystical portal in which their character is tested.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlayerPersonalityQuiz

Upon entering they are confronted by a series of classical challenge scenarios where they make a decision that reflects back upon who they are:

1) Riding to deliver a critical message to their king, they hear a cry for help in the woods. Do they stop to help, or ride on?
Alternate scenarios all revolve around the juxtiposition of duty vs compassion.

2) They sit in judgment as a magistrate, a man is brought in. He stole bread to feed his family, how do they respond?
Alternate scenarios are endless, the critical element is that the character is the one who sits in judgment. This can also be read as competing desires of justice/law/duty/compassion/mercy, etc...

[Sigreid]

A few other ideas for trials:


Climb a massive cliff, starting at dawn, and watch the sunset from the top.
Swim an Amazon scale river. (seriously, it's huge)
Spend the night locked in a tomb that is believed to house the restless dead
Venture to a sacred place and meditate through the night. If you are worthy the spirits will send you a vision. If you are unworthy you will be greivously wounded.
Jump from a high cliff into a small pool of water to prove your courage



Each of these would test your strength, your courage, your determination and/or your worthiness in the eyes of your tribe's ancestral spirits.

[Serket]

I was just now watching a relevant video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IyPc5nw0Wk