Why do monks have lower hit die?

[xroads]

I've always wondered, why do monks always have a lower hit die then fighters? The class is dedicated to "harnessing the power of the body in pursuit of physical and spiritual perfection." (pg 45, PHB). Wouldn't it stand to reason that their hit dice should be comparable to other physical type classes?

[D.U.P.A.]

Because they have better armor and generally more options at defending. Also they do not need any equipment.

[Lines]

Because they have better armor and generally more options at defending. Also they do not need any equipment.

They don't have better armour. Their AC is between 10 and 20, generally starting 15-16. It is increased by their primary stat (so will tend to start at 15 and hit 17 by level 8) and their tertiary stat (not so good, maximising both wisdom and dexterity will leave their constitution dangerously low and they already have a small hit die), while in contrast a fighter's armour will start at 16-18 and reach 18-21 by the time they get plate.

And what does not needing equipment have to do with it?

[wunderkid]

Personally when I picture a monk I see a Bruce Lee type of build. Incredibly lithe and wirey. But not a hulking brute like you'd expect from the typical fighter/barbarian. So the hit dice comes more from the stereotype build.

The monks defence becomes better when they reach the pinnacle of their skill.

Fighters just throw on armor.

That's just my take on why it is how it is. Obviously there's nothing stopping you actually playing the wirey swordfighter or the brutish monk. But from the stereotypical concept side of things my guess is that's why the designers gave them those hit die

[lebefrei]

The designers appear to have gone with some sort of musculature equation by class, something like:

Hulking:d12
Burly:d10
Average or Lithe:d8
Frail:d6

In my opinion this is based on how useful strength is to each class, and that determines hit die. This combined with constitution determines your hit points, being the representation of your ability to shrug off bodily harm before being knocked out or killed.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I've always wondered, why do monks always have a lower hit die then fighters? The class is dedicated to "harnessing the power of the body in pursuit of physical and spiritual perfection." (pg 45, PHB). Wouldn't it stand to reason that their hit dice should be comparable to other physical type classes?

It's just a mechanical balance thing. Monks get additional features to avoid damage, such as evasion, improved saves, higher speed, the ability to dodge or disengage as a bonus action, etc. Fighters on the other hand gain the ability to take more damage, with a higher hit die and second wind. The idea would be for the classes to be comparatively resilient overall, but how they accomplish it in the specific creates the mechanical flavor, which hopefully aligns with the thematic flavor.

[hymer]

It's just a mechanical balance thing. Monks get additional features to avoid damage, such as evasion, improved saves, higher speed, the ability to dodge or disengage as a bonus action, etc. Fighters on the other hand gain the ability to take more damage, with a higher hit die and second wind. The idea would be for the classes to be compatibly resilient overall, but how they accomplish it in the specific creates the mechanical flavor, which hopefully aligns with the thematic flavor.

I agree with this. The fighter is intended to be able to stand toe to toe with even tuff basturds. The monk is more supposed to slip away after delivering a series of hits. Different roles require different tools to various degrees.

[Belac93]

Monks are better at avoiding damage, to start, and also I believe that they had this amount or the equivalent health in earlier editions. So, tradition.

[CantigThimble]

Fighters trade blows, monks never take them at all. The best way to get that physical perfection is to not let it get hit by an axe. As a result they haven't been punched in the face NEARLY as much as fighters or barbarians have.

[JumboWheat01]

Monks are better at avoiding damage, to start, and also I believe that they had this amount or the equivalent health in earlier editions. So, tradition.

Not that they haven't done away with traditional hit dice. Sorcerers and Wizards are using d6 now instead of d4. I believe Rogues and Bards also got updated from d6 to d8. I'm actually surprised Fighters didn't go to d12 with all the dice changing.

Anyhoo, yeah, Monks are great at avoiding damage, especially spell damage thanks to (eventually) having proficiency in ALL saving throws, the only class that can really do that without dumping ASI after ASI. Assuming you can take Resilience several times, one for each stat. As spells are really where most of the nasty damage is at, that gives monks a very powerful edge over most other melee fighters.

They're also not too shabby at dodging weapon attacks, what with their huge movement speed. Hard for melee to get close to smack them if they can move so far away.

[EvanescentHero]

They're also not too shabby at dodging weapon attacks, what with their huge movement speed. Hard for melee to get close to smack them if they can move so far away.

On top of that, if a monk gets targeted with an arrow or a bolt, they take way less damage from it than other classes.

[Lines]

Not that they haven't done away with traditional hit dice. Sorcerers and Wizards are using d6 now instead of d4. I believe Rogues and Bards also got updated from d6 to d8. I'm actually surprised Fighters didn't go to d12 with all the dice changing.

Anyhoo, yeah, Monks are great at avoiding damage, especially spell damage thanks to (eventually) having proficiency in ALL saving throws, the only class that can really do that without dumping ASI after ASI. Assuming you can take Resilience several times, one for each stat. As spells are really where most of the nasty damage is at, that gives monks a very powerful edge over most other melee fighters.

They're also not too shabby at dodging weapon attacks, what with their huge movement speed. Hard for melee to get close to smack them if they can move so far away.

Ranger's d10 now, too.

[JackPhoenix]

Ranger's d10 now, too.

Nothing new there. They were d10 in 3.0, PF and older editions, only 3.5 gave them d8

[Tanarii]

Because the comparison you should be making for Monks is Rogues, not Fighters.

[Malifice]

Anyhoo, yeah, Monks are great at avoiding damage, especially spell damage thanks to (eventually) having proficiency in ALL saving throws, the only class that can really do that without dumping ASI after ASI. Assuming you can take Resilience several times, one for each stat.

You cant take the same feat more than once by RAW, even if feats are used in your game.

[Citan]

They don't have better armour. Their AC is between 10 and 20, generally starting 15-16. It is increased by their primary stat (so will tend to start at 15 and hit 17 by level 8) and their tertiary stat (not so good, maximising both wisdom and dexterity will leave their constitution dangerously low and they already have a small hit die), while in contrast a fighter's armour will start at 16-18 and reach 18-21 by the time they get plate.

And what does not needing equipment have to do with it?
While I agree with you that they usually don't have better AC than others, I'd daresay they have at least as good "armour" in the sense of reducing damage taken.

Also, I strongly disagree on the idea that WIS would be a tertiary stat. It's arguably the primary stat for Open Hand Monk and at least secondary stat for all others.
A Monk that doesn't prone or stun reliably is not filling his primary role.

And while a lower stat attack can be compensated in many ways (buff spells, advantage, condition inflicted) thanks to ally's help or a minimum dip in another class...
There are only a very few ways to help Monk abilities hit, mainly Bane or Bestow Curse on an enemy or a few class features, and all of them are unavailable to Monk (since we are talking about a Monk with low WIS, learning a Bane would be a waste, all other features are too "high" in classes to be attainable without severely reducing Monk levels).

Also, while indeed there are nasty spells targeting Constitution, Monk eventually gets proficiency in it so it mitigates the need of upping. Monk doesn't concentrate on anything either so no problem here. And he gets several ways to reduce damage at the cost of his concentration.
So, imo, it's Constitution which is definitely the tertiary stat for all Monks.

[djreynolds]

I've always wondered, why do monks always have a lower hit die then fighters? The class is dedicated to "harnessing the power of the body in pursuit of physical and spiritual perfection." (pg 45, PHB). Wouldn't it stand to reason that their hit dice should be comparable to other physical type classes?

I agree, they should get 1d10 or 1d12. Why not?

[ThatKreacher]

You cant take the same feat more than once by RAW, even if feats are used in your game.

not true, you may take a feat only once unless the feat's description says otherwise. Elemental Adept is a feat that can be taken multiple times, to a total of 5 times, choosing a different element each time. Personally, I think Resilient, Skilled, and Weapon Master should also be able to be taken multiple times, and would allow it in my game, but that's just me.

[Zalabim]

The Open Hand path also gets Wholeness of Body, which is like +1.5 to your constitution modifier, or slightly more than one step better hit die. Shadow Monk is more like a rogue. 4Elements Monk is more like a caster. Sun Soul is also more like a caster. Long Death monk should be getting temporary HP multiple times a day, which is probably the best of them all.

This is on top of passive and active defenses like Stunning Strike, so they don't get attacked as much, Evasion to take less damage from common effects, and Diamond Soul to take less damage from everything else.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I agree, they should get 1d10 or 1d12. Why not?

Begging the question, Why?

[djreynolds]

Begging the question, Why?

Because many players want to use the monk as their melee guy, rangers get 1d10 so why not monk? Its 2HP.

[Cybren]

Because many players want to use the monk as their melee guy, rangers get 1d10 so why not monk? Its 2HP.

Technically it's 1HP, d8 averages 4.5 and d10 averages 5.5. But either way- they don't need the HP, they get other defensive abilities (like patient defense, or all save proficiencies)

[Tanarii]

Because many players want to use the monk as their melee guy, rangers get 1d10 so why not monk? Its 2HP.

Because sacred cows. Sort of for HD, but definitely for archetype.

Ranger are fighter/rogue/Druid hybrids. Monks are just unarmed rogue analogues.

[MaxWilson]

Nothing new there. They were d10 in 3.0, PF and older editions, only 3.5 gave them d8

Not all older editions. IIRC they were d8 in AD&D (1e), with a bonus d8 at first level.

[JackPhoenix]

Not all older editions. IIRC they were d8 in AD&D (1e), with a bonus d8 at first level.

Ah. They had d10 in 2e, and I'm totally unfamiliar with older editions, I thought it would be the same, with 3.5 as the only outlier.

[Tanarii]

Not all older editions. IIRC they were d8 in AD&D (1e), with a bonus d8 at first level.Capping at 11d8 at tenth, with +2 per level after.

Comparatively Fighters got 9d10 +3/level.

That means at tenth, fighters 52.5 vs Rangers 49.5, with rangers losing 1 hp/level thereafter. Or looking at it another way, Rangers start with +3.5 hp at level 1, and lost 1 hp/ level relative thereafter, with another +1.5 hp bonus at level ten instead of losing 1.

Monks were similar, starting with 2d4 and gaining 1d4 per level, vs thieves getting d6 / level to level 10 and +1/level after.

It's simpler to just give rangers a d10 and monks whatever rogues are getting (d8 in this edition). :p

[JumboWheat01]

Capping at 11d8 at tenth, with +2 per level after.

Comparatively Fighters got 9d10 +3/level.

That means at tenth, fighters 52.5 vs Rangers 49.5, with rangers losing 1 hp/level thereafter. Or looking at it another way, Rangers start with +3.5 hp at level 1, and lost 1 hp/ level relative thereafter, with another +1.5 hp bonus at level ten instead of losing 1.

...I am so glad we live in much simpler times than the old AD&D days.