Optimizing (the Underrated). Part 3. Two weapon fighting

[PoeticDwarf]

Perfect for part 3, because there are enough options for optimizing this and because it is seen as really weak by almost everyone, especially from level 5 (and higher). Oh, and you may wonder while reading this, but this is still two weapon fighting. Enjoy!:smallbiggrin:

For optimizing this, there should be asked first why Two Weapon Fighting is seen as… weak.
Well, there are some pretty bad things about Two Weapon Fighting, like these:

-Use of bonus action every turn
-No support (Great weapon master/shield master/polearm master > Dual Wielder. Furtherly are spells as magic weapon not made for two weapon fighting)
-Doesn’t give much back (only low level some extra damage)

So why would you use it, what it does is letting you make one attack more as a bonus action. With some restrictions. So the only real use is the extra attack. What you technically want is having a damage bonus on extra attack to make it worth it. And you want no better use for your bonus action.

Problem, polearm master gives as many attacks as two weapon fighting (and crossbow expert also does that) with a heavy weapon (or ranged for sharpshooter)…
So dealing as much damage on every hit can maybe outdamage the sword and board, but not the great weapon wielder or archer. What you want is outdamaging the sword and board easily and outtanking great weapons. (defensive duelist, dual wielding rapiers with extra AC etc.).

Wait a second, didn’t we already have like 25 threads about it. Dual wielding lances gives really nice damage, sadly, this is not enough to make it all worth it. It is still an option, but just a normal fighter or paladin with some lances is not enough. Another one that comes up sometimes, and that is possible, is using a shield with the dual wielder feat. Maybe you’d need weapon master to get proficiency with it as improvised weapon. But lizard folk can use it, so just steal/buy/murderhobo it from a lizardfolk or just find a good smith and get weapon master. You will now use spiked shields so you get +3 AC from your shields. For most DMs since you already have prof. with the shield you don’t need weapon master to make good attacks with it, but it is a possibility.

You could combine the lance and shield idea. The paladin gets find steed and you will get a mount that way. Now you deal 2d12 (lances) + 1d4 (shield) + 6d8 (divine smite) + 15 (max str.), you could even take shieldmaster for even better defensive options. You will outdamage the sword/shield user, even if that one also uses lances (2d12+4d8+14). You can use bonus action for the extra damage but also for shield master abilities if you need to. Another way is bladesinger, especially if you want to go in the tank role some more. If you then go for a level fighter and rapier you’ll get even more AC. Especially in a bladesong.

But let’s go on with the paladin. You need the ASIs but say 16 paladin / 4 fighter because this helps your build even more (already works earlier but is of course the best on max level). Your AC is 22 (protection, plate, feat, shield), you can get this to 29 with shield of faith and shield. Higher if you have magic items. You deal better damage than a shield user and have with a little bit slower progress more damage. Your DPR won’t be higher than a paladin (not fighter because you can’t compare it, since pally gets loads of stuff) who uses GWM and Polearm master . 1d4+2d10+6d8+45 VS. 1d4+2d12+6d8+15 (28 damage less, and no dice reroll), but with +5 more to hit, +3 more AC (+5 without the fighter idea) and with the defensive and offensive shield master options, the GWM can’t say he’s better easily.

This is already a really nice build, right? But it is not really special yet. Some spell/feat/rule combo for high AC. Another already commonly seen idea for extra damage and the paladin class make this strong… But not that special yet, not the top or the max you can get. So let’s go on. Now you have something that is good to use, but not something this is really optimized.

So your build is now paladin (works from level 2, ends being level 16) and fighter (1-3 levels for the best options, ends being level 4). You use the shield and shield of faith spell but still have enough (higher level) slots left. That’s not bad, but it can better as I said.
First, you can do more with your slots
Second, you want enemies to target YOU
Third, you want if possible more AC/damage/options
Find steed for your mount is another nice option. Furtherly there are some nice smites, but they cost your bonus action, the basic divine smite is really nice but a bit too much nova, still for some slot you have left perfect. Hunter’s mark is also good, cast it once and concentrate on it (1: high level slot for long duration 2: Begin fighter for high CON save). You can get it dipping ranger (warlock), taking a feat (you don’t want so) or taking the right oath (maybe an option).
That also comes to the third. Dipping 4 ranger levels gives you the same amount of ASIs, still the same caster level (9 so a level 5 slot) and it gives you an additional attack most of the time (in my player experience). You will deal in the frontline most of the time an extra attack for additonal 1d12+1d6+2d8+5. And you can take the dueling fighting style for 4/6 extra damage a turn. You are two weapon fighting, sure, but normally you can also take it with a shield in one hand. Even if the DM doesn’t allow it you could take protection from paladin and defense from ranger. You now can give enemies disadvantage. They either have to get through YOUR high AC or sometimes with disadvantage through that of your allies.

You can’t use hunter’s mark and shield of faith at the same time, but using all your slots for find steed, hunter’s mark, shield and shield of faith you will most of the day or all day walk around with 22+ AC, probably 29 and great damage. Or with 22+ and probably 27AC, but with even greater damage. The damage you get then is with the extra hunter attack: 3d12+1d4+8d8+20+4d6 (also +6 if dueling works). Without the extra attack you drop 1d12+2d8+1d6+5.

So the ranger 4/ fighter 4/ paladin 12 will have HUGE AC (and HP with all d10 HD, also high con if you just go 14cha and 13wis or something). You will deal 68 damage a round and you’ll get an additonal 24 damage for a total even GW users are jealous of. Even an optimized sword and boarder can’t outtank you easily (yes this build is still two weapon fighting) or outdamaging you at all. You can action surge smite nova for a total of almost 200 damage with some luck. With many attacks and extra damage on every attack, this build is with a normal to hit deadlier than almost any other character. This works RAW, you have a mount and you have to take 1 feat, another one if your DM doesn’t allow it otherwise and you could get shield master if you want so. But overall you don’t have a slow progress. You can with vhuman let this work from level 1 and being already outstanding or above average around level 3. You can end up with 20str and 20con even with the multiclass stats you need, 18 or 16 con sometimes but it is enough, you’re still a tank. You could swap your +2 con for tough for example.

Every comment is helpful, stories about two weapon fighting would be cool and ideas for this build or the next one could help. Thanks in advance! Hope you enjoyed reading this!

[Zman]

The absolute best optimization for TWF is a Rogue's sneak attack. Sure, it doesn't deal much damage, but it offers a second chance to land your sneak attack. If you are hitting 50% of the time you are only landing 50% of your Sneak Attacks, with an offhand attack you are not landing sneak attack 75% of the time in addition to 50% of a D6.

Also, in a featless game TWF is solid for most of the game.

TWF is solid and can be optimized for levels 1-10 fairly easily, even for Fighters. It isn't until Fighters gain a 3rd attack and have taken GWM or PM that they really begin to outpace the TWF.

Looks at a Fighter
At 1st level TWF, 2d6 +6 or 13 is better than GWF 2d6(8.33) +3 or 11.33
At 4th +2 Dex leads to a better chance of hitting and an additional 2 Damage or Dual Wielder is solid, not as good as GWM but good.
At 5th the second attack really moves GWF ahead of TWF(22.5 vs 25.33 damage ) and with GWM it is a larger dichotemy.
At 6th an additional +2Dex/Str moves closes the gap slightly
At 8th Level we now have a 20 in our primary and Dual Wielder/Great Weapon Master. TWF deals 3d8+15 or 28.5 while the GWM deals 26.66, but the GWM really racks up the damage against low AC enemies and has the potential for the occasional bonus attack with GWM. Though the TWF does have better AC which is worth noting.
At 11th level this is where with the third attack the GWF leaves the TWF in the dust while both of them leave the Duelist in the dust.

So for Fighters before 11th level TWF is extremely viable and sometimes superior. Lets not forget the fun that can be had with TWF say javelins, attacking and even throwing a javelin a round offering a touch of versatility that can be situationally useful and cinematically awesome.

For Rogues it is the best way to guarantee delivering sneak attack, and made slightly better by taking the Dual Wielder feat though it competes for that bonus action.


Lets look at a lvl 4 Varient Human Fighter.
Dual Wield and +2 Str vs Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master.

+6 to Hit for d8+4/d8+4 with +1 AC vs +5 to Hit for d10+3/d4+3 or +0 to Hit for d10+14/d4+13.

VS AC 12
Dual Wielder 12.75 Damage
GMM/PM 9.8 or 15.3 Damage
VS AC 16
Dual Wielder 9.35 Damage
GMM/PM 7 or 8.5 Damage
*Forgot Great Weapon Fighting which would boost the damage slightly.

At low levels a Dual Wielding Varient Human keeps up with a Polarm Master Great Weapon Master and against many enemies will be superior. At 5th level the GWM/PM will pull away with the addition of the extra attack through it will still be reasonable against most enemies barring super low AC enemies, by 11th level the GWM/PM will far surpass the TWF.

[PoeticDwarf]

The absolute best optimization for TWF is a Rogue's sneak attack. Sure, it doesn't deal much damage, but it offers a second chance to land your sneak attack. If you are hitting 50% of the time you are only landing 50% of your Sneak Attacks, with an offhand attack you are not landing sneak attack 75% of the time in addition to 50% of a D6.

Also, in a featless game TWF is solid for most of the game.

TWF is solid and can be optimized for levels 1-10 fairly easily, even for Fighters. It isn't until Fighters gain a 3rd attack and have taken GWM or PM that they really begin to outpace the TWF.

Looks at a Fighter
At 1st level TWF, 2d6 +6 or 13 is better than GWF 2d6(8.33) +3 or 11.33
At 4th +2 Dex leads to a better chance of hitting and an additional 2 Damage or Dual Wielder is solid, not as good as GWM but good.
At 5th the second attack really moves GWF ahead of TWF(22.5 vs 25.33 damage ) and with GWM it is a larger dichotemy.
At 6th an additional +2Dex/Str moves closes the gap slightly
At 8th Level we now have a 20 in our primary and Dual Wielder/Great Weapon Master. TWF deals 3d8+15 or 28.5 while the GWM deals 26.66, but the GWM really racks up the damage against low AC enemies and has the potential for the occasional bonus attack with GWM. Though the TWF does have better AC which is worth noting.
At 11th level this is where with the third attack the GWF leaves the TWF in the dust while both of them leave the Duelist in the dust.

So for Fighters before 11th level TWF is extremely viable and sometimes superior. Lets not forget the fun that can be had with TWF say javelins, attacking and even throwing a javelin a round offering a touch of versatility that can be situationally useful and cinematically awesome.

For Rogues it is the best way to guarantee delivering sneak attack, and made slightly better by taking the Dual Wielder feat though it competes for that bonus action.


Lets look at a lvl 4 Varient Human Fighter.
Dual Wield and +2 Str vs Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master.

+6 to Hit for d8+4/d8+4 with +1 AC vs +5 to Hit for d10+3/d4+3 or +0 to Hit for d10+14/d4+13.

VS AC 12
Dual Wielder 12.75 Damage
GMM/PM 9.8 or 15.3 Damage
VS AC 16
Dual Wielder 9.35 Damage
GMM/PM 7 or 8.5 Damage
*Forgot Great Weapon Fighting which would boost the damage slightly.

At low levels a Dual Wielding Varient Human keeps up with a Polarm Master Great Weapon Master and against many enemies will be superior. At 5th level the GWM/PM will pull away with the addition of the extra attack through it will still be reasonable against most enemies barring super low AC enemies, by 11th level the GWM/PM will far surpass the TWF.

Yeah, for rogues it REALLY helps. But cunning action is super strong if you know how to use it. Even better than a second chance often.

And most games are not featless, but otherwise it's pretty strong.

Do you have feedback on my build? The rogue can work but is with cunning action not the best way to use it

[PeteNutButter]

What about the ever popular throwing combination? It can net a nice amount of damage. All you need is the duelist and TWF fighting styles.

Throw your first attack, then benefit from duelist for the remaining. There is no offhand/mainhand rule in 5e. You can throw with you right hand, trigger TWF attack with left hand, then make a third attack using extra attack. Extra attack does not say it need to be the same weapon as the first attack, so do left hand again. Then draw another weapon to set you up for the next round. It nets you +4 damage for regular extra attack, and up to +8 for high level fighters, or +10 if you're hasted.

If you wanted to not throw weapons you could probably just drop a sword every round, and carry a bunch, or have Dual Wielder allowing to both draw and sheathe your weapon every round. It's a little gamey. For flavor I picture a Dual Wielder using war picks that just leaves the first one in the enemy each round, and either draws another weapon. If you have DW you could fluff it to be you don't stow and draw, you attack, leave it in, attack with the other one a couple times, then pull the first one back out of the enemy. It could work for lances as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Are you using two lances and a shield? :smallconfused:

Overall, as you mentioned I think you'll want to get bonus damage on your hit-- Hex, Hunter's Mark, Divine Favor, Elemental Weapon, Crusader's Mantle, Colossus Slayer, that sort of thing.

[Shining Wrath]

TWF needs some feat / spell support from WotC, most likely something that lets you make more than one attack with your bonus action.

[SharkForce]

Are you using two lances and a shield? :smallconfused:

Overall, as you mentioned I think you'll want to get bonus damage on your hit-- Hex, Hunter's Mark, Divine Favor, Elemental Weapon, Crusader's Mantle, Colossus Slayer, that sort of thing.

no, he's getting two lance attacks per round because he has extra attack, and then using a shield.

[PeteNutButter]

TWF needs some feat / spell support from WotC, most likely something that lets you make more than one attack with your bonus action.

I think they know this, but keep running into the problem of hard that would devalue the monk.

@Grod_The_Giant

A big problem with things like hex hunters mark etc, is they also use your bonus action. So in practice you hex someone attack them with one hand. If they live to the next round you get to do your thing, or you're back to moving the hex/mark again. It's good against solo big bads, but in practice you rarely get to TWF a hexed/marked target more than a couple rounds, especially if your team is properly focus firing. It's like they purposely designed things that should synergise wih TWF to take a bonus action. :(

On my barbarian I wield a greatsword into battle. Rage, attack, drop the sword and draw a one handed weapon. Round 2 draw the other weapon and TWF. Paying attention to combat, if I had to move my rage like a hunters mark, I'd rarely TWF.

[PoeticDwarf]

What about the ever popular throwing combination? It can net a nice amount of damage. All you need is the duelist and TWF fighting styles.

Throw your first attack, then benefit from duelist for the remaining. There is no offhand/mainhand rule in 5e. You can throw with you right hand, trigger TWF attack with left hand, then make a third attack using extra attack. Extra attack does not say it need to be the same weapon as the first attack, so do left hand again. Then draw another weapon to set you up for the next round. It nets you +4 damage for regular extra attack, and up to +8 for high level fighters, or +10 if you're hasted.

If you wanted to not throw weapons you could probably just drop a sword every round, and carry a bunch, or have Dual Wielder allowing to both draw and sheathe your weapon every round. It's a little gamey. For flavor I picture a Dual Wielder using war picks that just leaves the first one in the enemy each round, and either draws another weapon. If you have DW you could fluff it to be you don't stow and draw, you attack, leave it in, attack with the other one a couple times, then pull the first one back out of the enemy. It could work for lances as well.
That's nice, and works well too, but I think the difference is... small. On level 20

Are you using two lances and a shield? :smallconfused:

Overall, as you mentioned I think you'll want to get bonus damage on your hit-- Hex, Hunter's Mark, Divine Favor, Elemental Weapon, Crusader's Mantle, Colossus Slayer, that sort of thing.
as SharkForce said. I don't. But my English is confusing

TWF needs some feat / spell support from WotC, most likely something that lets you make more than one attack with your bonus action.
It does

I think they know this, but keep running into the problem of hard that would devalue the monk.

@Grod_The_Giant

A big problem with things like hex hunters mark etc, is they also use your bonus action. So in practice you hex someone attack them with one hand. If they live to the next round you get to do your thing, or you're back to moving the hex/mark again. It's good against solo big bads, but in practice you rarely get to TWF a hexed/marked target more than a couple rounds, especially if your team is properly focus firing. It's like they purposely designed things that should synergise wih TWF to take a bonus action. :(

On my barbarian I wield a greatsword into battle. Rage, attack, drop the sword and draw a one handed weapon. Round 2 draw the other weapon and TWF. Paying attention to combat, if I had to move my rage like a hunters mark, I'd rarely TWF.

They do. But cast hunter's mark just once with a level 3 slot out of real combat on a rat or something

[PeteNutButter]

But cast hunter's mark just once with a level 3 slot out of real combat on a rat or something

It still takes a bonus action to move it...? This doesn't help at all.

[PoeticDwarf]

It still takes a bonus action to move it...? This doesn't help at all.

...

Your bonusaction is really not that important. Once a fight probably your bonus action and you've got 5 per fight or something. This really isn't a problem for the build

[PeteNutButter]

...
Your bonusaction is really not that important.

We are talking about TWF here. How on earth is your bonus action not important?

Furthermore as I said in the above post you will almost always need to do it more than once a fight, since solo big bads aren't much of a thing in 5e. :(

[PoeticDwarf]

We are talking about TWF here. How on earth is your bonus action not important?

Furthermore as I said in the above post you will almost always need to do it more than once a fight, since solo big bads aren't much of a thing in 5e. :(

Yeah, go on, scrap the other things I said.

You won't need that more than once, just focuss on the most important enemy. There is 80% a sorta boss or just a more important enemy, pack leader etc, who has more HP. You really will just need this at the beginning. Maybe one time later but probably not

Let's just not have this discussion. You didn't even give feedback on the build or came with a comment or anything about the thread itsself

[PeteNutButter]

Yeah, go on, scrap the other things I said.

You won't need that more than once, just focuss on the most important enemy. There is 80% a sorta boss or just a more important enemy, pack leader etc, who has more HP. You really will just need this at the beginning. Maybe one time later but probably not

Let's just not have this discussion. You didn't even give feedback on the build or came with a comment or anything about the thread itsself

...scroll up. I proposed a build that used duelist + TWF style, and then commented that it could be added to your build...

[Dimolyth]

Yeah, for rogues it REALLY helps. But cunning action is super strong if you know how to use it. Even better than a second chance often.

For a rogue, twf is helpfull for its versality purpose. If I missed with my action attack, I can try second chance with bonus attack. If I hit with action, I`ll take cunning action for whatever I want.
Note, that 1 of 5 presented subclasses for rogue is concerned to be two-weapon-wielder by default: swashbucler (who can attack to targets and retreat without taking Disingage).

[MrStabby]

The big thing is TWF is a style that lets you use dexterity. Dexterity is much better than strength as a stat and only barely balanced by the fact that Str has better feat support for close combat.

Just pump dex, use a finesse weapon and enjoy going first, dodging fireballs and generally being a godly dex monkey and accept that occasional use of your bonus action is the price you pay.

I dont think comparison with polearms makes TWF look bad, but I think comparison with dualist does. +2 damage per attack vs an extra attack only actually makes TWF look good when no one has more than one attack.

[Zalabim]

It's still hard to beat a Half-Orc Champion on a Warhorse with Dual Wielder and Mounted Combatant using TWF with Lances with TWF-style and Defense-style. TWF is only good early and Champion is only good late, so they balance out. It only does 5d12+25 [57.5] average damage, but the critical hits are substantial and it'd be devastating to human-sized opponents.

Same character with different styles for comparison, without advantage, GWM Greatsword does 50.19 DPR, Dual Wieldering Lances does 47.125 DPR with +1 AC, PM(only) Glaive does 43.04 DPR before reactions, and Duelist style single Lance does 42.9 DPR with +2 AC. PM GWM Glaive does 50.84 DPR, before reaction attack, but takes an extra feat. So if you use lances it looks like the feat is well-placed.

Plus, enemies may drop prone to avoid your devastating charge, and that's just awesome.

For the paladin build, the problems I see are that Improved Divine Smite is only 1d8 and only works with melee weapons, so the shield attack might only deal 1d4, +str with the fighting style. That gives a final average damage between 50.5 (no styles) and 66 (duelist/TWF/IDS on shield). The paladin/ranger multi also needs 13 Str/Dex/Wis/Cha.

[PoeticDwarf]

...scroll up. I proposed a build that used duelist + TWF style, and then commented that it could be added to your build...
It can't help this build...

[ImSAMazing]

...

Your bonusaction is really not that important. Once a fight probably your bonus action and you've got 5 per fight or something. This really isn't a problem for the build
Problem isn't your English, but that you put 'lance' in its plural form, that is the part that makes us think you are dual wielding lances AND a shield. If you put 'lance' in its singular form, then there is no problem and is your idea clear for me.

[PoeticDwarf]

Problem isn't your English, but that you put 'lance' in its plural form, that is the part that makes us think you are dual wielding lances AND a shield. If you put 'lance' in its singular form, then there is no problem and is your idea clear for me.
I said that a common used idea is dual wielding lances which is true and that you can combine the ideas. If I say lance then it wouls be wrong so then it isn't even my mistake:smalleek:

[Degwerks]

A TWF Paladin or Rogue or Ranger gets the most out of dual wielding.

In our campaign we can't use feats or multiclass. If our 9th level Paladin would've went sword/board instead of GWF he'd have increased chances of crits & hits by TWF & have the same AC. Now all he does is cast Shield of Faith & smite. We could be benefiting from Bless, and he'd have more chances to hit with smites.

[PoeticDwarf]

A TWF Paladin or Rogue or Ranger gets the most out of dual wielding.

In our campaign we can't use feats or multiclass. If our 9th level Paladin would've went sword/board instead of GWF he'd have increased chances of crits & hits by TWF & have the same AC. Now all he does is cast Shield of Faith & smite. We could be benefiting from Bless, and he'd have more chances to hit with smites.
Rogue is said several times. Although it adds much and is best for rogue -it isn't the best way to TWF because the divine smite amount of this spell is better than the rogues sneak attack already (yes, for in combat)