Learning Warlock Invocations...

[weckar]

OKay, this may be a bit of a silly threadm but I had a number of questions regarding the learning of/ replacing of Warlock invocations.

1. "At any level when a warlock learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same or a lower grade." The examples that follow each represent getting a new RANK of invocations. SO, does this mean I get to replace 3 invocations over my career, or 11?

2. If I have a PrC that provides custom invocations (a.k.a. Enlightened Spirit) do the invocations granted by that qualify for the general replacement rule?

3. Also, what 'unlocks' a new tier of invocations? As a lv 5 Warlock you'd have access only to Lesser invocations, but taking levels in Englightened spirit rather quickly gives you a Greater (blast shape) and even Dark invocation way before you usually could. Does the possessing of those respective invocations allow the taking of more invocations of those tiers once you start taking 'vanilla' warlock levels again?

4. The Eldritch Blast ability gives no information on action types or how often it could be used. Does this imply it is a (Lesser) invocation and could potentially be replaced with another?

[Troacctid]

1. "At any level when a warlock learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same or a lower grade." The examples that follow each represent getting a new RANK of invocations. SO, does this mean I get to replace 3 invocations over my career, or 11?
At any level where you learn a new invocation, so 11. Actually, it's more than that, because you can also retrain them using the PH2 rules for retraining class features.


2. If I have a PrC that provides custom invocations (a.k.a. Enlightened Spirit) do the invocations granted by that qualify for the general replacement rule?
It would seem so.


3. Also, what 'unlocks' a new tier of invocations? As a lv 5 Warlock you'd have access only to Lesser invocations, but taking levels in Englightened spirit rather quickly gives you a Greater (blast shape) and even Dark invocation way before you usually could. Does the possessing of those respective invocations allow the taking of more invocations of those tiers once you start taking 'vanilla' warlock levels again?
Correction, as a level 5 warlock, you'd only have access to least invocations.

You gain access to new grades of invocations at your 6th, 11th, and 16th levels of warlock. Prestige class levels that advance warlock casting count towards this because of the special rules for how warlocks interact with prestige classes. Enlightened Spirit does not actually advance your warlock casting, so it doesn't count. (Yes, this means after your 10 levels of Enlightened Spirit, you go back to picking low-level invocations.)


4. The Eldritch Blast ability gives no information on action types or how often it could be used. Does this imply it is a (Lesser) invocation and could potentially be replaced with another?
Eldritch blast is an invocation, but it has no grade and cannot be swapped for another invocation. It requires a standard action unless otherwise noted. (Some effects, such as Eldritch Glaive, change its action cost.)

[weckar]

Hmm all approximately the answers I was expecting. I guess being able to swap out anything the Enlightned Spirit has would make it great in a gestalt, eh?

It's actually too bad Eldritch Blast doesn't have a 'grade'. I could see swapping it out at lv2 if I'm double-dipping the class for passives...


And yeah, I meant least instead of lesser. I'm a little wordblind when it comes to those two.

[weckar]

I've been thinking some more... Does this mean that, technically, as the above described Warlock is only elligible for least invocations, he could not learn/use ANY of the Enlightened Spirit invocations? Or does the fact that they are specifically granted as class abilities supersede that and the tier limit only applies to 'chosen' invocations?
Would we, by this logic, not be able to replace any of our Greater ES invocations with Greater Warlock invocations (once we take that 6th level, say right after getting Cone as a free blast shape), because we wouldn't normally be able to learn those?
Seems we're measuring with two different sticks, is all.

[Necroticplague]

I've been thinking some more... Does this mean that, technically, as the above described Warlock is only elligible for least invocations, he could not learn/use ANY of the Enlightened Spirit invocations? Or does the fact that they are specifically granted as class abilities supersede that and the tier limit only applies to 'chosen' invocations? The latter. The table is for what level you can acquire them normally. If they're given to you, you can still use them, since invocations don't have nay kind of prerequisite line.


Would we, by this logic, not be able to replace any of our Greater ES invocations with Greater Warlock invocations (once we take that 6th level, say right after getting Cone as a free blast shape), because we wouldn't normally be able to learn those?
Seems we're measuring with two different sticks, is all.
No, we could swap out those Greater for another invocation of Greater or less, because the rule about swapping out invocations is more specific than the general rule for acquiring invocations, and thus supersedes it.

[weckar]

At the risk of wandering into cheddar territory (and afb, so I may be entirely wrong regardless), it doesn't explicitly state that the replacing invocation has to be a Warlock invocation, does it? One could replace any such invocation with a DFA/ES invocation?

Nah, I'm just crazy.


Still bummed I can't trade away Eldritch Blast, though...

[Segev]

I would honestly talk to your DM if you want a DFA invocation on a warlock or vice-versa. They're not interchangeable by the RAW, but some "work" for certain builds, so it can't hurt to ask for special dispensation from your DM.

As an example, I had a white dragon wyrmling cohort on a character who was running DFA, and I took the Warlock invocation that grants grease at will because the fluff for it was that he breathed out his chill breath and left a layer of ice on the target area. (I also further exploited this, with DM permission, to let him layer ice on walls and ceilings so he could use Icewalk, the white dragon racial ability. It was fun.)

[Troacctid]

I would honestly talk to your DM if you want a DFA invocation on a warlock or vice-versa. They're not interchangeable by the RAW, but some "work" for certain builds, so it can't hurt to ask for special dispensation from your DM.

As an example, I had a white dragon wyrmling cohort on a character who was running DFA, and I took the Warlock invocation that grants grease at will because the fluff for it was that he breathed out his chill breath and left a layer of ice on the target area. (I also further exploited this, with DM permission, to let him layer ice on walls and ceilings so he could use Icewalk, the white dragon racial ability. It was fun.)

You can get cross-class invocations with the Infernal Adept (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613) feat.

Also, there is no grease invocation for Warlocks.

[weckar]

If there were a grease invocation, I'd have it :P

[Segev]

You can get cross-class invocations with the Infernal Adept (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613) feat.

Also, there is no grease invocation for Warlocks.

...huh. Maybe I just invented it and asked the DM if I could have it, then. My apologies; it's not as good an example as I'd thought.

[Necroticplague]

At the risk of wandering into cheddar territory (and afb, so I may be entirely wrong regardless), it doesn't explicitly state that the replacing invocation has to be a Warlock invocation, does it? One could replace any such invocation with a DFA/ES invocation?Technically, the invocations the Dragonfire Adept uses aren't invocations. There's a very small difference that makes a big difference


A warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul. A warlock can use any invocation he knows at will, with the following qualifications:


A dragonfire adept has a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and other abilities known as draconic invocations, which allow her to focus the draconic energy that suffuses her soul. A dragonfire adept can use any invocation she knows at will.

So the Warlock ability lets you pick Invocations, while the Dragonfire Adept ability allows you to pick Draconic Invocations. These aren't the same thing, of course (any more than a divine spell and an arcane spell are the same thing), so an ability that picks one doesn't let you pick the other.

[weckar]

Very fair point. Although an Arcane spell and a Divine spell are both spells. So a Draconic Invocation is an invocation, but an invocation is not necessarily a Draconic Invocation?

[Necroticplague]

Very fair point. Although an Arcane spell and a Divine spell are both spells. So a Draconic Invocation is an invocation, but an invocation is not necessarily a Draconic Invocation?

No. Neither Invocations or Draconic Invocations are subsets of each other. The latter is sometimes shortened to invocation (or in all chances, copy-paste errored), but it is not an Invocation. They are two entirely distinct abilities that just happen to share part of the name.

[Troacctid]

Draconic invocations are definitely invocations, and are referred to simply as "invocations" almost every time they're mentioned.

If they weren't invocations, they wouldn't be spell-like abilities, or provoke attacks of opportunities.

A dragonfire adept's invocations are spell-like abilities: using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Nor would they have somatic components.

Like arcane spellcasters, a dragonfire adept wearing armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations have somatic components).

Nor would they be advanced with prestige classes.

She also gains new invocations at each prestige class level as though she had risen a level in the dragonfire adept class.

In fact, the section in Chapter 3 that lists their invocations would have no useful options, as it lists "invocations", not "draconic invocations".

The invocations available to dragonfire adepts (see page 24) are described in this section.

[Bobby Baratheon]

As Troacctid said, I think it's fairly obvious that DFA invocations are invocations. They are also draconic invocations (ie a specific type of invocation), but they are still invocations, and are subject to exactly the same rules and restrictions that a warlocks invocations are.