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Kurald Galain
2007-06-20, 02:57 AM
I've seen it mentioned several times that the Samurai class is about as weak as a commoner... I was wondering where this class is mentioned and why it's considered so awful? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just unfamiliar with it and curious.

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-20, 03:10 AM
At first level, the Complete Warrior version of the Samurai gets Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword. That's the only thing it gets.
At second level, the Samurai gets Two-Weapon Fighting, but only when wielding a short sword and a bastard sword. That's all.
At third level, the Samurai gets the ability to add his/her Charisma bonus an attack or damage roll 1/day.
At fourth level, the Samurai gets... nothing. Four is a dead level.
At fifth level, the Samurai gets Quick Draw, but only when drawing a short sword or a bastard sword.
At sixth, the Samurai gets +4 to Intimidate.

I could go on. It doesn't get better.

Jack Mann
2007-06-20, 03:18 AM
It's in the Complete Warrior.

It's an exaggeration to say they're as weak as commoners, but they are one of the weakest classes to grace the game. The only class features they get that are at all worth having are free exotic proficiency with bastard swords and two-weapon fighting. Unfortunately, he has no source of bonus damage, so this is more of a hindrance than a boon. Improved initiative, at eighth, is useful enough. He also gains quickdraw at fifth, but how often are you going to need that?

Kiai Smite allows him to add his charisma to attack and damage. Not terrible, but not enough uses per day to be all that useful.

He gets some others which are based on his ability to frighten enemies. These abilities form the bulk of the samurai's effectiveness, and they ultimately fall flat.

Staredown, mass staredown, and improved staredown are ways to use intimidate, essentially. You gain a bonus to the skill, and can eventually demoralize several opponents at once. For the cost of a standard action (a move action once you gain improved staredown at 14th). Making your enemies shaken is nice, I suppose, but as you go up in levels, the hit dice of most creatures rises faster than their CR. Unless you're only fighting humanoids with low to average wisdom, this is utterly not worthwhile.

At level twenty, you gain frightful presence. You can panic creatures with four hit dice or less (oh, joy). You can make creatures with up to nineteen hit dice shaken. Creatures with twenty hit dice or more are unaffected. So, pretty much anything that has a CR equal to your level is immune to your capstone ability.

That's the samurai. A few minor benefits, nearly all of which can be gained through fighter bonus feats, and some absolute dreck abilities that are almost never useful. A samurai is better than a commoner, but not much above a warrior. A level twenty samurai vs. a level twenty warrior would be a pretty close fight. The only real advantages the samurai would have are slightly more hit points (d10 rather than d8) and improved initiative. Assuming the warrior used a greatsword, and the samurai used his two weapons, the warrior would pull right ahead.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-20, 03:19 AM
The comparison with the commoner is an overstatement, but not by that much.

The samurai is basically a fighter, but instead of a selection of bonus feats you are granted sub-par feats relating to TWF with the bastard sword and wakizashi and you do not have to meet the dex prerequisites of TWF.

The class can be found in Complete Warrior.

Tengu
2007-06-20, 03:20 AM
If you go here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0786928808/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-4941009-1690266#reader-link) and keep pressing the right arrow, you will reach the Samurai.

Basically, it's a two-weapon fighter who is slightly above average in demoralizing your enemies with Intimidate (anyone uses this anyway?), and has a weaker Smite Evil. Completely ridiculous both mechanically and fluff-wise: most samurai used only one weapon!

Now, the 3.0 Samurai from Oriental Adventures and Master Samurai PrC from Sword and Fist are decent.

EDIT: Mass simu-ninja attack! Does the Inverse Ninja Law apply to simu-ninja too?

Dhavaer
2007-06-20, 03:29 AM
Now, the 3.0 Samurai from Oriental Adventures and Master Samurai PrC from Sword and Fist are decent.

Master Samurai is particularly good if you're ever going to have to fight vast numbers of very weak enemies, as they get Supreme Cleave at second level. Their Blades of Death ability, which doubles their strength when using a katana two handed, as also decent if you have a very high strength (and why wouldn't you?).
The prequisites are insane, though, so only Fighters (or OA Samurai) need apply.

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-20, 03:35 AM
Oh, hey; in addition to all these great and unique abilities, they have a paladin-esque Code!

Jack Mann
2007-06-20, 03:55 AM
I just realized that I forgot to factor in kiai smite in my analysis of the samurai vs. the warrior.

The warrior still wins. Kiai smite is a per-attack ability, so it won't boost two-weapon fighting. The added damage from power attack and two-weapon fighting will more than make up the difference.

The only real chance the samurai has is to completely ignore the two-weapon fighting, go with a greatsword himself, and hope that kiai smite and improved initiative are enough to give him an edge.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-20, 04:05 AM
The Staredown et al need to be able to affect things of the same size or larger, just give them a Will save.

Bosh
2007-06-20, 04:09 AM
Unfortunately, he has no source of bonus damage, so this is more of a hindrance than a boon.
Well they can max out strength since they don't need the dex to qualify for the twf feats. But that's not enough to overcome two-handers > twf

Leon
2007-06-20, 06:23 AM
They are not as Bad a Commoners, you can throw a house cat at one and it will survive - as opposed to the poor commoner..... but they are down there

Better to play another class and call yourself a Samurai

Kurald Galain
2007-06-20, 06:52 AM
Ah, interesting, thanks.

It strikes me that a samurai is essentially a fighter with no bonus feats... I do seem to recall a certain fighter-with-no-bonus-feats that has no samurai class levels but nevertheless calls herself one :smallsmile:

Matthew
2007-06-20, 06:59 AM
Heh, heh. Yep, that's the oft touted complaint. Samurai is one of the most bizzare base Classes going. The guy who designed it was clearly taking the advice of the DMG to heart (i.e. no Class should be better at fighting than the Fighter), but he was misguided in this.

On the other hand, it does mean that most Samurai are modelled by Fighter, which was the intent of the Fighter Base Class to begin with. I always think of The Complete Warrior Samurai as the Student of Miyamoto Musashi Base Class...

Bow2Gaijin
2007-06-20, 09:41 AM
The samurai in Oriental Adventures is much better. I played one to 17 and it was the funnest character I have ever played.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-20, 01:28 PM
Another problem with the samurai is it's thematically inappropriate because most samurai were not two-weapon fighters (there's just one notable exception, the afforementioned Miyamoto Musashi). I personally have problems with a Samurai class that isn't at all like how the samurai were, i.e. skilled with many weapons and generally not even reliant upon their daisho.

I like the OA Samurai which is a fighter with less bonus feats and the Kensai ability with their daisho. It gives the ancestral weapon bonus for their weapons, but also allows you to make a samurai skilled in other styles (the bonus feats were based off clan since it was for the Rokugan setting, but that can easily be revised to make them more fighter-esque).

Matthew
2007-06-20, 01:38 PM
The OA Samurai also gets a better Skill selection, if memory serves...

Amphimir Míriel
2007-06-20, 05:07 PM
Now that we mention the 3.0 OA Samurai...

Is there a 3.0 to 3.5 conversion document for Oriental Adventures out there somewhere?

Matthew
2007-06-20, 05:11 PM
As far as I am aware, it was updated via Dragon. I don't recall the issues off hand, though, I'm afraid.

Jack Mann
2007-06-20, 05:12 PM
Dragon 318 had an update, I believe.

Jimp
2007-06-20, 06:20 PM
Are these updates available on the internet anywhere?

Jack Mann
2007-06-20, 06:32 PM
Yes. Dragon #318 is available as a .pdf from Paizo for $4.95.

Unless you mean for free. In which case it would be illegal. So no.

TheOOB
2007-06-20, 07:03 PM
The OA samurai doesn't really need to be changed much to be appropriate for 3.5, really I'd just say they can pick any fighter feat as bonus feats and call it good.

Really though, most samurai would be some combination of fighter, monk, and/or swashbuckler. A level 20 fighter with weapon supremacy katana works well enough (even if weapon supremacy builds are a little weak).

If Tome of Battle is allowed, a samurai is a warblade, most likely with a lot of diamond mind manuvers.

Starbuck_II
2007-06-20, 08:35 PM
It's in the Complete Warrior.

It's an exaggeration to say they're as weak as commoners, but they are one of the weakest classes to grace the game. The only class features they get that are at all worth having are free exotic proficiency with bastard swords and two-weapon fighting.
He gets the weapons free: that is free 600+ gold. He could ways sell that for more stuff (beet to multiclass out after all).


Kiai Smite allows him to add his charisma to attack and damage. Not terrible, but not enough uses per day to be all that useful.

Extra Smite is a feat though.


He gets some others which are based on his ability to frighten enemies. These abilities form the bulk of the samurai's effectiveness, and they ultimately fall flat.

Staredown, mass staredown, and improved staredown are ways to use intimidate, essentially. You gain a bonus to the skill, and can eventually demoralize several opponents at once. For the cost of a standard action (a move action once you gain improved staredown at 14th). Making your enemies shaken is nice, I suppose, but as you go up in levels, the hit dice of most creatures rises faster than their CR. Unless you're only fighting humanoids with low to average wisdom, this is utterly not worthwhile.

Worse, there are feats in the CW that are better than these.
Feats make your class abilities look weak in the same book!?

Ki Shout/Greater.


That's the samurai. A few minor benefits, nearly all of which can be gained through fighter bonus feats, and some absolute dreck abilities that are almost never useful. A samurai is better than a commoner, but not much above a warrior. A level twenty samurai vs. a level twenty warrior would be a pretty close fight. The only real advantages the samurai would have are slightly more hit points (d10 rather than d8) and improved initiative. Assuming the warrior used a greatsword, and the samurai used his two weapons, the warrior would pull right ahead.

Well, the Samurai would have more money...

Skyserpent
2007-06-20, 08:43 PM
The two weapon fighting doesn't need the dex score when Samurai use it... so there's that...