Your Mythic experiences and how they can help me.

[Cranky Mcduff]

My main campaign is Wrath of the Righteous and my players are about to make their second(and probably final)run at the Gray Garrison, the culmination of which will turn them Mythic. Those of you who have seen my posts over in the Spheres of Power ask me anything thread will note my tendency to overthink things, so I've basically decided to leave most of the rules as is and adjust certain encounters to reduce Nova situations. That being said, I was wondering if some of you would be willing to share some of your Mythic experiences with me. Any homebrew that has worked(and why), problematic feats or abilities, suggestions to help prevent the party from steamrolling the game, which would lead to boredom, and so on. Any help or insights would be appreciated. Thanks!

Edit: I should also point out that I've allowed Path of War into my campaign. I've included Maneuvers under the "no" column next to spells on Amazing Initiative. Oddly, no one took Silver Crane....

[Rhedyn]

I would recommend against mythics or heavily Nerf them until post 20th.

They aren't well balanced with themselves and tend to just crank a game up to 11.

If you are going to do it anyways then I recommend increasing the number of enemies to maintain challenge. Boosting CR to apl+8 just makes the game rocket tag. Having the party fight endless waves of normal encounters works out better. The party will still explode foes.

Basically turns combat into God of War.

That's been my experience with then at least. All the campaigns with them, the GM regretted adding them on top of normal leveling.

[Denomar]

Well, I'm playing in Wrath of the Righteous right now. We're just a bit into the third module.

What we've found is that we had to rethink how we thought about attrition. The group rests when we have no more mythic points for the day rather than being based on hit points or spell slots. Because generally once we're out of mythic points the other metrics start to drop in short order.

Mythic encounters are cool and difficult to the point that if we weren't mythic we'd probably have been floored by those monsters.

Expect your players when they hit mythic 3 to start walking through run of the mill combats like its absolutely nothing. Mythic monsters will challenge them, oe kobold will not. Depending on party makeup Vrocks might just be the equivalent of catching AIDS.

My only real warning per say is that the mass combat system isn't really the campaigns strength and we have chosen to disregard many of them in favor of doing things in parallel with npc's rather than being in the thick of things.

[Kol Korran]

I have run the Wrath of the Righteous AP up until recently, We've stopped near theend of the fourth module. I've changed A LOT about the campaign, but that is a different story. I have made a fairly detailed log (Along with a lot of DM insights and thoughts). My siganture has the main log about the campaign.

I'll link a few relevant stuff:
End of campaign thoughts. Scroll down to "Challenges running the campaign", to the relevant sections (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20475586&postcount=226)

A summary of possible problems with the AP's modules, and ideas on how to improve them. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396097-Wrath-of-the-Righteous-What-changes-have-you-made-to-the-adventure-path-Spoilers!&highlight=wrath+of+the+righteous)

Also, An idea I had about the Gray Garrison, which only came up when I played the fourth module, which involves Minhago, the demon who was supposed to guard the Wardstone. Part of that module revolves around her failure to do so, and her attempts at getting back in Baphomet's favor. Spoilering for length.

The attack on the grey garrison:
The module gives a hell of a crappy reason why none of the major demons protect the Wardstone, the KEY to turning the entire crusade army into demons. With such importance, you'd think they'd put some more defenses around it, no? It always irked me...

In my campaign, in the last session when the party met Minhago briefly (And I had to remind them of her part in the protection of the Wardstone), the issue of the demon side seeming utterly incompetent ,pathetic and laughable in that scenario came up again. This single event breaks up any sense of a capable, dangerous, competent foe. They are considered fools, idiots, cartoon villains... I have realized that to a point, this has colored the rest of the campaign so far...

The module goes even further suggesting the party attack in waves, retreating, resting, attacking again and so on. Now I ask you- if you knew someone was attacking the key point to your whole super evil plan, would you leave it so poorly defended? Thankfully, this point is easier to fix, since the party by that point is quite capable of taking the entire garrison in one attempt, even though at some difficulty. I roleplayed it's encounters close to the real thing, with a bit of an added difficulty, and it went ok. But what about the first problem? The demon side leaving no serious defense of the Wardstone feels just so... inexcusable...

After this last session I gave this a great deal of thought, and if I had to do it again, I would do it as this: Minhago, the lilitu, a CR 17+ demon (Depending on the version you use) Is the one protecting the Wardstone. She has an underling (Jaclyn) who helps in doing atrocities around the city, and raising skeletons and such. But Minhago is the definite guardian of the Wardstone. As the party travel in the city they hear rumors of the two, mostly of Minhago, some of Jaclyn. You know- build up...

Once they reach the Defender's Heart, They hear from the leaders of the rebellion of Minhago, her reputation, her superbly overpowering them and everyone here. Though an attack on the Garrison may be possible, It is impossible with Minhago there. She could obliterate them all (You can have Minhago be aware of the forces at Defender's Heart. She does not consider them a real threat, and also looks forward to the corruption of the Wardstone turning them into demons) .

Now, either the NPCs suggest it, or the PCs come up with it, but the rebellion, instead of it being used as a diversion for the forces surrounding the garrison, it is used to divert Minhago's attention. Basically, the rebellion needs to create a diversion, to draw out Minhago to a different location, and enable the PCs to attack and destroy the Wardstone.

What can such a diversion be? I suggest to have some options, but let the PCs try to think up their own. There might be some locations Minhago cares for in the city, which she will protect if attacked on mass, or maybe an item she covets, or such. In general principle, I'd try to have the party research Minhago's history, story and personality, and then use part of her demonic personality characteristics to draw her out (Her greed, her devotion, her hatred, her contempt, he pride and so on). This will make her downfall all the more potent, as the party used the demonic flaws to gain their victory.

A passing thought- but it could be cool if the entire rebellion other than the PCs and accompanying NPCs will be needed for such a distraction. A suicide mission really, since they have no real hope of defeating Minhago when she appears, just to occupy her time, enough for the party to succeed. You might add that the expected results of destroying the Wardstone is releasing so much magical energy, that it will destroy everyone near, so the party is also on a sort of a suicide mission (Depending on whether you think the party will like this kind of theme). This grim but fatal effort, to save the rest of the crusade, may give a real heroic and righteous feel to the end of the module, with a twist of the Wardstone turning them to mythic instead of destroying them.

How to play it in session? One way is to just have the party run the grey garrison after someone tells them Minhago has been lured out. I think though, that if I could, I would place two grids- On one you play out the Grey Garrison, on the other you play the scene of the rebellion fighting Minhago (Each player gets to control some red shirts, which are quickly recycled as Minhago cuts a swath of destruction), You can really play out Mihago's power and cruelty here, and also her failings. You can even use the mongrelfolk as something that greatly piques her interest (She may wonder as to these strange "half demons" who all with the crusaders) It gives her much more presence, and gives the excursion a much more pressing time limit.

At the end battle, I'll have Jaclyn staying behind as the protector, not wanting to Alert Minhago to avoid her anger. But near her death or when the party gets 1-2rounds away from the Wardstone, you pull the twist! Jaclyn (Or maybe a status spell or an alarm spell around the Wardstone) alerts Minhago, who immediately teleports back to the room! Expect an "Oh Sh*t!" moment from the group! There is no way in hell they can beat her, but thankfully there is another "win" button- destroying the Wardstone! The party acts in 1-3 crucial rounds, trying to just get close enough to the stone using superior numbers, trickery, diversion, or just glorious foolish bravery to get the to the stone and destroy it! I think this will make a bloody epic ending!

Minhago is almost destroyed (or is destroyed but is brought back), and the party meets her later on, with a far more intense background between them. (Minhago as built makes quite a fitting opponent- though at this level she is practically unbeatable, she lacks any area attacks, and most of her spell powers either require long casting, can be stopped with protection from evil, are protective in nature, or have an effect in a campaign, not just in a battle. For the most part she can function as a melee beast, but melee fighters can be maneuvered around...)

It makes the capturing of the garrison so much more rewardring, makes sense, and memorable. First tricking Minhago out, which takes some clever thinking, as well as a great deal of courage and sacrifice. It takes battling Minhago at the end, who did not just desert her post, which is a unique, memorable, and thrilling challenge, a suitable ending to the module, and a suitable challenge for a mythic ascension.

And it keeps the enemies as a real powerful, competent, and not an idiotic threat. This will set the tone for the entire campaign, so it's THAT important!

5) Areelu Vorlesh: Again, the end of the module makes her look pathetic, incompetent, and a laughing butt. My party still makes jokes on her, even though I tried a different approach then in the module, who didn't work quite so well admittedly.

I'm not fully sure how to deal with this, though if you include Minhago or some other powerful guardian, you may opt to leave the Areelu encounter out altogether.

You can have her image appear before the Queen and the party, or some other threat and the like, but not be defeated as overwhelmingly as this. Not a failure of this magnitude be tied with her directly... I got no certain solution here, but you really need to consider this. This set the tone for the rest of the campaign, and how serious the group takes the enemy.]

I'd be happy to discuss more things later, but I gotta run at this point. Good luck to you!

[Florian]

I´ve run WotR with the same people I played KM with, so using the mass combat system was easy and one character was well prepared to fulfill the role of army commander.

Feats: Remember that nearly all mythic feats have their respective non-mythic version as prereq and the feat list is pretty much limited (CRB, APB, some of the Ultimates..) and a truck-load of newer material (ACG) and the companions are not supported. I suggested that my players care for their mythic build first and adapt their non-mythic build according to that to prevent delays and overlaps.

Limiting the feat and spell selection is not such a bad idea on that, as their are choices available right now that duplicate or over-shadow their mythic counterparts in some way. I can also imagine that you will run into the same problem when using PoW/SoP as those don´t seem to mesh too well with the mythic stuff, having a naturally higher ceiling.

As has been mentioned before, the pacing changes when MP become available. That can lead to a version of the 15 minute adventuring day, when people steamroll all encounters and spent their MP, then rest and refresh while still having a lot of other resources at hand. If that happens, I suggest integrating some kind of Milestone mechanic that only lets MP refresh by engaging in encounters.

[Cranky Mcduff]

Hey guys, thanks for all your responses!

@Rhedyn: I've been fiddling with the encounters from the beginning. I hate using XP and the AP gives me benchmarks for when they should level, so it frees me up to vary the CRs of the encounters to suit my party. Or, at least alter the composition of encounters. Honestly, the whole point of this is for all of us to have fun and I think they'll get a kick out of doing Mythic.

@Denomar: I'm still really on the fence with Mass Combat. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit more on how your table does what you do?

@Kol Korran: WOW. Been working a LOT lately, but I got the next 2 days off, so I'll be digging through that, thank you!
EDIT: I just had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity and recognized your name. I found your campaign logs a good long while ago(we've been playing Wrath on and off for 8-9 months now) and I will happliy admit to shamelessly ripping off some of what you did. Like the Hall of Heroes. Thank you for writing all of that as I really don't have a lot of time and your logs have made it easier for me to prep. :smallbiggrin:

@Florian: I've already decided to nerf Mythic Power Attack and Vital Strike(holy multipliers batman!). I want them to spend thier Mythic points, not horde them to Nova any bosses they come across. On the same token, I don't want them to be able to recover them so easily. I've already made them fear the 15 min adventuring day cheese by playing my smart bad guys as, well, smart. I was thinking about having thier MP recover once per 24 hours at sunrise. Seems appropriate considering Iomede, Sun domain, etc. Or recovers after rest, but no more than once per 24 hours. OR lesser recovery, like 1+ Tier level, no more than once per 24 hours. All cases would probably cause them to horde them, but who knows. They tend to roll pretty crappy. :smallbiggrin: