DC and Marvel representative for US comic scene?

[Mr White]

I'm a vivid reader of comics. Not the ones everybody discusses here on this forum, but the European ones. American comicbooks aren't really widly available in Belgium. I go to different comicbook stores regularly but other than the most known titles (spawn, X-men, Wolverine) there aren't much US made titles.

Not that i mind much, the titles I mentioned above don't spark my interest and neither do any of the titles mentioned in the discussions here. I'm more looking for a good story that doesn't drag on for ever with situations that are at least remotly possible.

This isn't me being all high and mighty against US comics. Both the US as the European comic evolved in their own way and their readers with them.

I want to discover as much great (in my own subjective opinion) comics I can. The question I have is thus Is Marvel and DC representative for (almost) all US comics or is their a decent sized section 'European style' comics available for me to take a look in.

[Selrahc]

Well to answer that you'd have to tell us exactly what you mean when you say "European comics"

I'm in England, and I read a few of the English comics there are around. 2000 AD and stuff like that. But from what you said I guess thats not what you mean....


There are lots of examples of comics from America which aren't standard superhero fare. Stuff like Hellblazer, or Sandman are examples of comics where the plot isn't about standing around and punching each other. Look at stuff like Vertigo and Dark Horse if you want stuff that isn't like the mainstream comic book style.

[Grod_The_Giant]

well, DC and Marvel are the two big companies in American comics, so in a sense you're right.

However, each publishes a huge range of stuff.

[Mr White]

I should've known I had to specify my question.

First, I probably made a big mistake by generalising comics in Europe. I'm most familiar with French/Belgian style comics. Comics of other European countries are less known here just because France is such a huge producer of comics. Besides it could be that graphic novel is a better word than comic to describe what I'm looking for.

What do I look for?
A good story > an awesome hero
I don't care how cool a hero is or if he would bitch slap batman if he fought him. The story is the most important!!!!!
This means:

- a story that doesn't drag on forever with illogical plotturns. A good setting can't be used forever before it becomes boring. Besides a person can only escape death so many times. For example, 'The third testament' was finished after only 4 books of 50 A4 pages.

- No overpowering characters. Sure some people will be better than their opposition but NO SUPERMEN CONFRONTATION. Basicly a homo sapiens confrontation. There can be more powerful entities but they should still be beatable by a normal human being. Sure I can name a few characters that are more powerful than the average human by vertue of money, connections or magic but they are still human and not demi-gods. Again in 'the third testament', the anti-christ (brother of Jesus) is the opponent.He is immortal but also dependant on others to achieve his goal.

- Logic and continuaty!! I can make a 'leap of faith' as long as this leap isn't the alibi to make the story even more unbelievable. Some of my favourite comics are pretty unbelievable but they stick with that one thing. for example in 'de heer Vastenavond Vanas' depicts purgatory that's situated on the far side of Pluto.

- No shared universe. Like I said, I'm not interested in a cross-over confrontation. Making people read other comic just to know the background information is nothing more than money grabing at its worst. Again there is so much decent writing a good setting can support.

[Darth Mario]

Well, it violates the "No Shared Universe" clause, but I HAVE to reccomend "Astonishing X-Men", written by Firefly/Serenity/Buffy/Angel creator Joss Whedon. I know you said that you aren't interested in X-Men stuff, but the writing in these is just so amazing, you need to give it a chance.

As far as non-superhero comics go: Sandman by Neil Gaiman and V for Vendetta by Alan Moore are good places to start, in my opinion.

[Mr White]

Well "they aren't so much strict rules as they are guidelines" so I don't really mind one or two being broken as long as the story and the art is good. The problem with X-men however is that there is no beginning-middle-end story and more of an ongoing story which can't keep my interest. I liked the movies because there was an ending.

I'm unfamiliar with both V and sandman. But again, are these ral stories or just an ongoing quest for/against ... Because quite frankly any tale begins to suck when the writer has to find a climax time after time. Every good tale needs a definat ending.

[Baalzebub]

So you're looking for a story where the hero is a normal guy, with a beggining and an end? like a novel?

[Mr White]

So you're looking for a story where the hero is a normal guy, with a beggining and an end? like a novel?

The key phrase here is like a novel.

[Selrahc]

Sandman is all about the story. And it has a set begining and ending. It's not heavy on fighting, and things tend to be on a more metaphysical level. Bloody awesome series all told.

Lucifer is the spin off series from Sandman, and is effectively more of the same. Ups the confrontation levels though. More things are resolved by conflict.

Of course both those series have protaqgonists who are gods. Although that doesn't really matter to the story... if you're just uncomfortable with powerful central characters then maybe not? Its not a Superman style thing though.

Hellblazer follows the journey of John Constantine a magician from England, in some down to earth gritty grifting through a world of the supernatural mixed the mundane. It doesn't really have a set end point though.

The Books of Magic are... hmmm... similarish. Except not so gritty. Timothy Hunter is a bit higher up the power ramp though, but again its not a Superman thing. Really its more the issue of how a teenage boy handles getting godlike powers, and living in a hugely complicated world.

Sin City is pure human scale problems, a good story, and is generally a lot of unconnected stories that happen to be taking place within a fictional city. Thats a good one. It does tend to be pretty violent though in its aproach to
problem solving, which you might not like.

Hellboy is good, but not really on your list. Check it out though, theres some free stuff online. http://www.darkhorse.com/zones/hellboy/downloads.php

V for Vendetta is a great story. Dystopian future, and a struggle against an opressive government. Good story, and I think pretty much what you want.

Ronin is fairly similar. Except odder.

Transmetropolitan and The Invisibles are nice little brain trip numbers. The INvisibles is the story of a resistance movement against a secret force that controls reality, the resistance force being composed of all manner of people on the fringe of society. Transmetropolitan is a rogue gonzo journalist reporting against the regime in a dyustopian future(Seems to be theme huh?) Both are fairly long running series that stick within your bounds.

Back in the actual superhero genre, you get some nice titles out which have superb storytelling. Ultimates, The Authority, Red Son, Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come.... they might be superhero comics, but they really are all about the story.

I'm sure someone will recomend The Preacher or Concrete at some point... but I haven't read them so /shrug.

Yeah, thats a fair load of comics that are pretty awesome in my opinion at least. Not your standard superhero fare. Thats all I can think of for now.

[TheNovak]

52 is still being collected in trades (one's out, three to go), but it might be up your alley. It took a group of C- and B-list DC heroes, took them through a huge story, and ended it conclusively. There are still a handful of loose ends left to be tied up in future comics, but the main plot was pretty well resolved.

Also, Watchmen. Surprised that hasn't been listed already.

[Selrahc]

Darn. Knew I missed one. I was reading that yesterday too....

[Keldin]

The Watchmen was an amazing book. It DID have a nearly omnipotent being, but he was neutralized for a good chunk of the story by a guy with no powers whatsoever. The story was king in this one -- I really recommend it.

I also just saw "300" last night. I didn't like the artwork in the original comic but the story was excellent and the writing just stellar.

As for DC and Marvel, they are representative of a very popular style of comics in the U.S. but there are now almost too many styles to count!

[Nerd-o-rama]

The two next-biggest publishers that offer the kind of comics you like are Vertigo (a subsidiary of DC that handles more low-key comics like V for Vendetta and Sandman) and Dark Horse. You'll want to look through their catalogues, especially at their graphic novels which, surprise, are much like novels in their format.

[Beleriphon]

The two next-biggest publishers that offer the kind of comics you like are Vertigo (a subsidiary of DC that handles more low-key comics like V for Vendetta and Sandman) and Dark Horse. You'll want to look through their catalogues, especially at their graphic novels which, surprise, are much like novels in their format.

A note V for Vendetta, its only published by Vertigo, it was originally produced for a now defunct British magazine by Alan Moore. So V is most assuredly a European comic.

[Mr White]

Thanks, there are some nice titles and publishers I can look into.

In return, if any of you want some good titles of French/Belgian comics I'm willing to recommend you some. But I fear the good ones will be hard to get in the US.

[SPoD]

Also, try a title from DC's Vertigo imprint called Y, the Last Man. There's no superheroes at all, just normal folks in the real world. It just so happens that in this version of the real world, all of the males on the planet died one day--except for two, a slacker in his late 20's and his pet monkey. They travel across a world that is reeling both from the loss of half its population as well as the shift from male to female dominance. (Example: overnight, Israel becomes a military superpower because it's the only country that compels women to serve in the Armed Forces.)

And it's wrapping up soon, so it has a definite beginning, middle, and end.

[Mr White]

There seems to be a big difference in culture between France/Belgium and US/UK. In US/UK people seems to prefer monthly shorter installments of a really big story while in France/Belgium people seem to prefer rather short (3 to < 20 books) stories and are willing to wait long times between two comicbooks if the writing and art make up for it.

For example 'the scorpion' series published by dupuis counts 7 books now in a tempo of 1 book a year. The art, however, is superb with the colouring done by hand with an aquarelle painting technique and the writing keeps you hooked without making all the intrigues clutter the story.

I'm looking for the whole story (or at least from beginning to the current issue) and 50+ issues is just to much to collect.

I think I will be looking for 'V for Vendetta'

[Darth Mario]

Exellent. After you've read it, check out the movie too.

[Rob Knotts]

The two next-biggest publishers that offer the kind of comics you like are Vertigo (a subsidiary of DC that handles more low-key comics like V for Vendetta and Sandman) and Dark Horse. You'll want to look through their catalogues, especially at their graphic novels which, surprise, are much like novels in their format.Not a huge fan of Vertigo myself, but I'd have to agree that Vertigo and Dark Horse are your best bet for developed storytelling at appoachable characters.

Personally I can't recommend Hellboy (Dark Horse) enough, and despite his various epic battles I suspect Hellboy (and the associated B.P.R.D stories) are easily grounded enough to appeal to readers from Europe. Hellboy/B.P.R.D story arcs are also finite and relatively self-contained, even when they build on events/characters from previous stories:One good example is the two-issue story for The Island, where the second issue consists almost entirely of Hellboy waiting for the ranting sorceror-of-the-month to transform into a monster so he can punch it.

Most Hellboy stories boil down to finding out who/what/where the monster is so Hellboy can punch it:smallamused:

It's basically a short, familiar Hellboy adventure based on a previously unrevealed aspect of Hellboy's origin. At the time Mike Mignola, the artist who created the character, felt that he had told all the big stories he had for Hellboy and put the character into semi-retirement. The Third Wish and The Island were written mainly just to provide new stand-alone adventures/mysteries for Hellboy without getting into any new major story arcs.If you're at all interested in looking into Hellboy, I'd recommend starting with the collections Strange Places (collects The Third Wish and The Island) and The Chained Coffin and Others.

[Mr White]

Not a huge fan of Vertigo myself, but I'd have to agree that Vertigo and Dark Horse are your best bet for developed storytelling at appoachable characters.

Personally I can't recommend Hellboy (Dark Horse) enough, and despite his various epic battles I suspect Hellboy (and the associated B.P.R.D stories) are easily grounded enough to appeal to readers from Europe. Hellboy/B.P.R.D story arcs are also finite and relatively self-contained, even when they build on events/characters from previous stories:[spoiler]One good example is the two-issue story for The Island, where the second issue consists almost entirely of Hellboy waiting for the ranting sorceror-of-the-month to transform into a monster so he can punch it.

Most Hellboy stories boil down to finding out who/what/where the monster is so Hellboy can punch it:smallamused:

I've seen the movie. I must say that though the character of Hellboy was very interesting, his world wasn't. I have a feeling which you seem to agree with that the Hellboy stories boils dawn to Hellboy beating the snot out of a different foe every few issues while in the back his feelings and origin are being revealed.
The comic may be well written and the personalities may make up a great story but when the villians just wait in line to get there shot at world domination or whatnot it just feels like Power Rangers but with some intelligent writers behind it. IMO Writers ( or publishers) need to let characters go after a while in order to keep the story stays strong.

[Rob Knotts]

I can't argue with your assessment of the character, all I can tell you is that the Hellboy comics are usually a lot more moody and well-paced than the movie was.

Also keep in mind that Hellboy stories are for the most part mysteries that draw from the pulp-horror tradition of relying mostly on exposition, although Hellboy stories are a lot more optimistic than Lovecraft ever was. The fisticuffs and explosions are really more to help sell the books to a wider audience. There's never any question that Hellboy will take out the villain at the end, but the meat of the stories comes from how the mysteries are revealed.

[....]

I should've known I had to specify my question.

First, I probably made a big mistake by generalising comics in Europe. I'm most familiar with French/Belgian style comics. Comics of other European countries are less known here just because France is such a huge producer of comics. Besides it could be that graphic novel is a better word than comic to describe what I'm looking for.

What do I look for?
A good story > an awesome hero
I don't care how cool a hero is or if he would bitch slap batman if he fought him. The story is the most important!!!!!
This means:

- a story that doesn't drag on forever with illogical plotturns. A good setting can't be used forever before it becomes boring. Besides a person can only escape death so many times. For example, 'The third testament' was finished after only 4 books of 50 A4 pages.

- No overpowering characters. Sure some people will be better than their opposition but NO SUPERMEN CONFRONTATION. Basicly a homo sapiens confrontation. There can be more powerful entities but they should still be beatable by a normal human being. Sure I can name a few characters that are more powerful than the average human by vertue of money, connections or magic but they are still human and not demi-gods. Again in 'the third testament', the anti-christ (brother of Jesus) is the opponent.He is immortal but also dependant on others to achieve his goal.

- Logic and continuaty!! I can make a 'leap of faith' as long as this leap isn't the alibi to make the story even more unbelievable. Some of my favourite comics are pretty unbelievable but they stick with that one thing. for example in 'de heer Vastenavond Vanas' depicts purgatory that's situated on the far side of Pluto.

- No shared universe. Like I said, I'm not interested in a cross-over confrontation. Making people read other comic just to know the background information is nothing more than money grabing at its worst. Again there is so much decent writing a good setting can support.


Read 'John Constantine: Hellblazer'.

He's all the normal human things you want, plus, he would slap Batman if he saw him.

[Mr White]

Read 'John Constantine: Hellblazer'.

He's all the normal human things you want, plus, he would slap Batman if he saw him.

That's the whole point. I don't care if he'd slap the whole Justice League with a dead fish if they ever met, The character has to work inside his own story and nothing more.

I've read about Hellblazer. It seems interesting but again the story isn't confined to a few issues. I'm sure the story arcs can stand on their own to a great ectend but the fact that they are part of a greater number of story arcs in one continuity means that you have to have at least some knowledge of the previous issues to appreciate what happens in the current issue.

For example the series 'china man' ( apparantly this forum doesn't support the use of the real title which is china man but then written as one word). is currently at issue 9. Every book stands on its own but the really get why the protagonist (Chen Long Anh/John china man) is as introvert and weary as he is, you need to have read the previous 8 issues.

[Finn Solomon]

Read Vertigo's Preacher. Definite story, beginning and end, does not share anyone's universe, and comes highly recommended if you like Pulp Fiction/Tarantinoesque violence, Sergio Leone films, and don't take religion too seriously.

Although I'm not sure you'd like the Saint of Killers, if you hate overpowered characters...and your repeated Bible references tell me you actually DO take religion seriously.

In that case, avoid Vertigo's Preacher.

[Mr White]

Read Vertigo's Preacher. Definite story, beginning and end, does not share anyone's universe, and comes highly recommended if you like Pulp Fiction/Tarantinoesque violence,

I've read the plot on wikipedia and it seems somewhat good, not entirely my taste but still I'm open for new things.
I like the atmosphere (and the music) in most Tarantino films, the violence is only good when it supports the story (I won't watch Kill Bill unless there is no better movie on TV).


Sergio Leone films

I realy like his movies. The cimetary scene in 'the Good, the Bad and the Ugly' was just great.



Although I'm not sure you'd like the Saint of Killers, if you hate overpowered characters...and your repeated Bible references tell me you actually DO take religion seriously.

In that case, avoid Vertigo's Preacher.

I haven't deliberatly quoted bible references as far as I know. It may be because of my limited knowledge of the English language.
I'm no relegious type. Again whipping out my list of all time favourite comic series, there is at least one where God is repeatedly cursed upon and where purgatory is mistakenly made a prison instead of a transit zone (the reason of all this anger towards God).

And as far as I'm concerned everything is free game when it is ridiculed with some skill and taste.

In the end, I'll probably won't look for Vertigo's Preacher though. To much issues (almost impossible to collect all and the story may be to stretched out) and the fact that the story as a whole isn't really up my alley.

[Finn Solomon]

Well that's sad, it actually is an excellent series and a fun read.

[Hushdawg]

Sin City is pure human scale problems, a good story, and is generally a lot of unconnected stories that happen to be taking place within a fictional city. Thats a good one. It does tend to be pretty violent though in its aproach to
problem solving, which you might not like.


I think the fun thing is that Miller wrote Sin City after his terrible experiences with Robocop. He wanted to create a story that was so violent, Hollywood would never touch!

:smalltongue:

[kariokie]

If you want to read the first issue of many of the Vertigo titles mentioned here (Y: The Last Man, Sandman... personally, I also enjoy Fables) you can go to their site and download and read them for free:

http://www.dccomics.com/sites/vertigo_num1s/

Click on the graphics of the comic to go to each individual download page, and then click on "Download Issue #1" to get the PDF of the first issue. While it's not as fun as having a comic book in your hands, it's nice because you can read a bunch of first issues and see what comics really strike you as interesting.

You might also enjoy Runaways (group of teens discovers their parents are supervillains), Queen and Country (comic book about MI-6), Ex Machina (superhero elected mayor of NYC). I probably have some other good ones bouncing around in my head, but I can't recall them now. The Vertigo downloads should get you started, though!

[Mr White]

If you want to read the first issue of many of the Vertigo titles mentioned here (Y: The Last Man, Sandman... personally, I also enjoy Fables) you can go to their site and download and read them for free:

http://www.dccomics.com/sites/vertigo_num1s/

Click on the graphics of the comic to go to each individual download page, and then click on "Download Issue #1" to get the PDF of the first issue. While it's not as fun as having a comic book in your hands, it's nice because you can read a bunch of first issues and see what comics really strike you as interesting.

Well thanks Kariokie, I'll certainly do that.

So I've read the 10 issues of 'V for Vendetta' this weekend:

At first glance I was a bit dissapointed. The graphical side wasn't what I expected. I have some comics from the same period and some older ones and their artwork is more detailed and cleaner. But hey, I asked for a good story right.

Story is outdated but I didn't expect antrhing else from a comic with such a theme written 20 years ago. I would definatly place 'V for Vendetta' amongst '1984' and 'brave new world'.
V is a great character. Especially in the first 2 issues where his background is unknown and you, as a reader, are thrown between seeing V as a loon and seeing V as a man who loves the drama. Most other characters aren't as interesting and some are almost caricatures (the pedofile cleric) but that may be because of the age of the series.
I really didn't like all the voice-over and elaborate monologueing. It cluttered the panels and took the pace right out of the comic. I'm a firm believer in using images as much as possible to tell your story. The 'Vicious cabaret' song, though, was definatly my favourite part in the comic.
I did like all the cultural references from botticelli and Faust to the Rolling stones and 'streets of London'.

All in all, I don't count 'V for Vendetta' as one of my all time favourite comicseries. Mind you, I can't help but judge the series by 21th century standards. I'm still glad I've read it though.

[Beleriphon]

All in all, I don't count 'V for Vendetta' as one of my all time favourite comicseries. Mind you, I can't help but judge the series by 21th century standards. I'm still glad I've read it though.

Then you need to read The Watchmen. It certainly defines itself as visual, sequential art, story. In fact I doubt seriously that it would work correctly in any other medium.

For other options Dark Knight Returns is considered one of the seminal Batman stories, and it exists outside of the normal DC continuity so you can accept it as is, and at face value. I personally enjoy it immensely as a terrific Batman story that helped to establish modern comic book story telling. For a bit of an opposite Kingdom Come is another DC story set outside of their normal continuity. Illustrated by Alex Ross is has some of the most phenomonal art in a comic that you're likely to find. Its also really, really good.