Tank/Leader build help

[Kelvarius]

Hello, everyone.

I'm starting a new game in 3.5 with a group of 5 other players. I'm interested in making a tanky type character that is also a good leader type. I'm aware that tanks in the traditional sense simply don't exist in D&D, barring possibly the Knight, but I don't know the best way to go this route otherwise. And by leader type, I mean things like high charisma, maybe some party buffs, face skillls, etc.

It seems like my best option with that is to go with Crusader, from everything I've seen. I might also dip in some Paladin levels, and apparently a Ruby Knight Vindicator is a pretty good PrC from there.

Are there any classes I'm overlooking? I don't necessarily want to be min/max optimized munchkin levels, but I also don't want to be underwhelming like a straight Paladin or Marshal would be.

In addition, are there any feats you suggest for the Leader aspect of it, not counting Leadership itself? I know of Clarion Call, but that's about it.

Some more information: I'm going to be human. There will be a Bard in the party, so those bonuses are taken care of. The party will be more or less balanced.

Is this even possible? Am I trying for too much and diluting myself? Both tanking properly and having good leadership things seem to be feat intensive to me.

Maybe I'm overlooking something, or maybe my information is wrong. Either way, any help is appreciated.

Thank you.

TL;DR version - I want to make a tank/leader type character. Please suggest any classes and feats that help do so.

Edit: Also, all resources are available, though pending DM approval on a case by case basis. So the less wonky and game breaking it is, the more likely it will work.

[RoyVG]

I think your first assumption of Paladin/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator is a pretty solid choice for a character. You can change Paladin for Cleric to get much stronger spellcasting in the end, but the Paladin features combine decently well with the Crusader and Paladin just screams 'Party face'. A straight Crusader 20 is also very good, and lowers your reliance on Wisdom (You need at least 14 Wisdom to cast all Paladin Spells, even more when taking Cleric and focusing on spellcasting). This might be preferable if your ability scores are not so good, as Strength, Charisma and Constitution need high scores before Wisdom. Going into RKV will also require some skill point tax to get 4 ranks in Hide, which you are probably not going to use anyway.

For feats, if you're taking Paladin levels, Battle Blessing is going to be a pretty solid choice, because you can get more swift actions with RKV, so you can buff up really quickly with you Paladin spells.
If going Crusader, Extra Granted Maneuver is a must-have because it allows you to get your expended maneuvers back one round sooner. Focus on White Raven for quick party buffs and Devoted Spirit for some efficient in-combat healing.

EDIT: Some Extra opinions

If you want to be a decent tank, you will need quite some feats to spend into that, to get things like a Spiked Chain or Kusari-gama for reach (You could go with a Glaive and Armor Spikes), Combat Reflexes for more attacks of opportunity, combined with the Thicket of Blades Stance. Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) works really well, or Improved Trip, but that required Combat Expertise, adding some Int to the mix unless you can get it as a bonus feat somewhere. You would need a 13-14 in every stat to make this build work really well. A single class Crusader could pull that off with less problem, but when you add Paladin or Cleric in the mix, it becomes a lot more difficult. Increasing your size through magic items is a small priority, to increase your reach.

In terms of leader-type feat, I cant really think of anything specific. Of course you can work two ways; increasing morale of you allies, or destroying that of you enemies. The (Greater) Kiai Shout feats from Complete Warrior may work for small crowds of weaker creatures, or the Never Outnumbered skill trick from Complete Scoundrel gives you some close range intimidation techniques. The main problem here is that your opponents become immune very fast :/. If you want to Help your party, Clarion Commander (and it's prereq White Raven Defence) is decent. You could also become a Silverbrow Human and take a Draconic Aura for a bonus on... something. You can give everyone Fast healing until they reach half their max hitpoints, Could save you on resources between encounters. Otherwise a bonus to Initiative, Spot and Listen, or on movement speeds, or on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate can be nice.

[Warrnan]

Another idea would be cleric. Between spells like delay death and heal you can be darn near invincible. Plus, you'd be a cleric. Use spells that buff your team up like magic circle against evil and get some way to chain greater magic weapon and Magic vestment. This will make you a supportive leader who is plenty tanky. Just don't use your cleric powers to become a diva. Focus on the team and mixing it up in melee. Between your defensive spells and strong will and fort saves you will be great.

Stand still and combat reflexes will help you control the battlefield with a 2 handed reach weapon. ranks in diplomacy and sense motive will help you with other leader type stuff.

i usually build something like this:
Cleric3/ church inquisitor1/ ordained champion5/ prestige paladin1/ fist of raziel 10.

It loses a handful of caster levels but it's basically what paladin should have been. Tons of smites based off of character level, Damage multipliers on charges, healing, holy weapon abilities, detect evil at will, swift paladin and war domain spells, and 17 levels of cleric casting so you can gate solars at max level.

It's a lot of fun.

Also something to consider is that prestige classes can always be reflavored to different alignments and dieties as needed. So mechanically this could work for anything flavored as a "divine champion".

[Kelvarius]

Information snip



All very good information, thank you! I'll have to mull over the straight Crusader option, though I do really like the idea of all those Paladin buffs...

I was afraid the tanking idea would be feat intensive, but not surprised. The glaive/armor spikes option is a nice alternative to the exotic weapon, which helps some.

I'm a bit disappointed that there aren't more leadership type things. I mean, I guess the bard class does basically do most everything that I would imagine leadership things doing, but even so it's disappointing. There's always the roleplaying aspect of it "Hold the line, watch the flanks, etc" but I was hoping for something tangible to go along with it. Oh well.

As for the stats issue, the DM hasn't decided on how we're doing that yet, so the single Crusader might be my best option for now. However, I think 36 point buy was mentioned at one point, as well as a few other options other than standard rolling.

Either way, I'll probably start with Crusader; gives me the option for either, and more skill points that way. :smallwink:

Thanks for all your information!


More information snip.

I love clerics. It's what I usually play since nobody else will because "That's just a healer class, eww." Fools. In this case, though, a party member is already a cleric. And while there's nothing wrong with multiple clerics, I thought it might be nice to try something else.

I do like the "what a Paladin should have been" idea, though. My original concept was to be a Paladin, but I didn't like how blegh they were. It's another option I'll have to seriously consider, thank you.

[Warrnan]

I second the glaive + armor spikes weapon set up.

[Troacctid]

Incarnates also make good tanks. Some of their defensive soulmelds are quite strong, and they have enough meld slots to back them up with damage and utility as well. Single-class Incarnate can be a bit underwhelming, but Sapphire Hierarch, Soulcaster, Soul Manifester, or a simple 4:1 mix of Incarnate:Crusader (e.g. Incarnate 4/Crusader 1/Incarnate +4/Crusader +1/etc.) will make for a very good tank build. Ironsoul Forgemaster is also quite nice if you're a dwarf, and can take the place of some of the Incarnate levels in the latter build.

If you want to be a hard tank, Shield Other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm) is a good way to guarantee that the person taking the damage will always be you.

[GreyBlack]

Bard/Paladin. No contest. Ask if you can take the feat that lets you multiclass the two.

[Kelvarius]

I second the glaive + armor spikes weapon set up.

It does look promising. Not sure the armor spikes truly fit my character idea, but it's not necessarily out of hand, either. I'm really liking the build you suggested, too.


Incarnates also make good tanks. Some of their defensive soulmelds are quite strong, and they have enough meld slots to back them up with damage and utility as well. Single-class Incarnate can be a bit underwhelming, but Sapphire Hierarch, Soulcaster, Soul Manifester, or a simple 4:1 mix of Incarnate:Crusader (e.g. Incarnate 4/Crusader 1/Incarnate +4/Crusader +1/etc.) will make for a very good tank build. Ironsoul Forgemaster is also quite nice if you're a dwarf, and can take the place of some of the Incarnate levels in the latter build.

If you want to be a hard tank, Shield Other is a good way to guarantee that the person taking the damage will always be you.

I am not familiar with the Incarnate, so I'll have to look into that. Sounds like a Psionic type offhand. And unfortunately, for the Ironsoul Forgemaster, I'm playing a human. The aforementioned cleric and I are playing as twins, and we've already decided on human, so that can't change.

That Shield Other idea is a good idea, though. Are there ways to get that on multiple party members, or does it just override each previous one?


Bard/Paladin. No contest. Ask if you can take the feat that lets you multiclass the two.

Devoted Performer, I think it's called. Devoted Singer, maybe? Anyways, that is another option, too. Though I'd hate to...ahem...upstage the full time Bard and make her redundant.

[Troacctid]

I am not familiar with the Incarnate, so I'll have to look into that. Sounds like a Psionic type offhand. And unfortunately, for the Ironsoul Forgemaster, I'm playing a human. The aforementioned cleric and I are playing as twins, and we've already decided on human, so that can't change.

That Shield Other idea is a good idea, though. Are there ways to get that on multiple party members, or does it just override each previous one?

Incarnate (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060124a) is a meldshaping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide) class from Magic of Incarnum. There is a psionic power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/incarnate.htm) by the same name, but it's totally unrelated. Sapphire Hierarch, Soulcaster, and Soul Manifester are theurge classes that combine it with Cleric, Wizard, or Psion, respectively.

Between Con as a primary stat and the immense amounts of extra HP you get from Vitality Belt, you have a lot of HP to work with. You get relatively large amounts of damage reduction at a very low level (up to DR 6/magic at 1st level), and you have access to a variety of save-boosters, AC boosts, resistances, and immunities, depending on which soulmelds you shape.

Shield Other can be applied to as many targets as you like (as long as you have enough platinum rings for them), and its effect applies to all of them. You can put it on your whole party if you want, including yourself. (Hey, why not, it's +1 to saves and AC.)

[Warrnan]

I love clerics. It's what I usually play since nobody else will because "That's just a healer class, eww." Fools. In this case, though, a party member is already a cleric. And while there's nothing wrong with multiple clerics, I thought it might be nice to try something else.

I do like the "what a Paladin should have been" idea, though. My original concept was to be a Paladin, but I didn't like how blegh they were. It's another option I'll have to seriously consider, thank you.

You are most welcome.

If you want to be a hard tank, Shield Other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm) is a good way to guarantee that the person taking the damage will always be you.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with this one more!

Another paladiny idea would be the Harmonious Knights build

The basic idea is you take smite to song feat with a few other feats and be a warchanting aura giving heavy metal paladin. And focus on inspire courage optimization.

I'd recommend something like this. Paladin19 and crusader 1@ level3

This will give you swift action inspire courage @ 3 through the feat song of the white raven. Pick up the martial spirit stance for healing on hit to your self or an ally with in 30'.

Grab battle blessing for swift pally buffs. Go check out the "a game paladin" for an explanation of how it's done. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471332-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin-(Tempest_Stormwind)

Or a simpler build could be bard4/crusader16 with song of the white raven as well. For inspire courage + maneuvers. This is also a "leader paladin".

[Ellowryn]

Seeing as there is already a cleric and a bard in the party i will also recommend going full Crusader. Focus on White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers and you literally hit people to make your allies better. I would also recommend talking with your Dm before hand about how White Raven Tactics will function and see if you can fix the stance progression.

[Kelvarius]

Incarnate info.

Shield Other can be applied to as many targets as you like (as long as you have enough platinum rings for them), and its effect applies to all of them. You can put it on your whole party if you want, including yourself. (Hey, why not, it's +1 to saves and AC.)

Interesting. I'll have to look more into it, might be fun to play.

And the Shield Other on self sounds hilarious.


Another paladiny idea would be the Harmonious Knights build


This does look like a lot of fun. But as I said before, we've already got a Bard, so I feel like having me with Bardic songs would be redundant and unnecessary since they don't stack. Granted, we could use different songs, but that would then possibly run into other issues of "stealing" the Bard's combat options.


Seeing as there is already a cleric and a bard in the party i will also recommend going full Crusader. Focus on White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers and you literally hit people to make your allies better. I would also recommend talking with your Dm before hand about how White Raven Tactics will function and see if you can fix the stance progression.

I think I've decided against the RKV path, fun as it sounds. Sounds like it'll be too powerful compared to the rest of the group (Mostly newcomers to the game, so I'm expecting very unoptimized). I like being able to do awesome things, but I don't want to just completely overshadow everyone else, either.

The full Crusader does look like a really good fit with what I'm going for, and the way you sum up those maneuvers sounds perfect.

I'm also still really looking into the "Should have been" Paladin posted by Warrnan. Not sure which path I like better now...

[Campbellk8105]

Nymph (or anything else with unearthly grace,) Battle dancer/Paladin of freedom.

Cha to AC twice, great saves and some healing to boot.

Probably not the easiest thing to do race wise however

[Warrnan]

So I've seen two usages of shield other in a "mass style" format. The obvious one is what I like to call "divine sacrifice". You chain spell chain other and take half of everyone's damage and heal yourself. The second one is very interesting but uses more spell slots. Everyone would need a custom item or be able to cast shield other somehow. Everyone cast shield other on another party member. This creates a sort of entire party pool of HP with interesting results.

As far as armor Spikes go. Just get ones here and there. Have them be golden lacquered to give off the "holy sun beams" flavor. Spikes don't have to be all "Sauron the destroyer" from the beginning of fellowship of the ring. :) they are very useful in many situations. You are paying masterwork cost. They can look however you like!

Crusader is probably the best choice in your situation unless you collaborate with the other cleric to make sure you two have distinct individual ideas so as to not step on toes.