[3.5] Wizard 20 vs. X Sorcerer 10s

[Thurbane]

So, stupid hypothetical of the day.

How many optimized 10th level Sorcerers would it take to defeat one decently Optimized Wizard 20?

Let's assume base classes only, but ACFs are kosher. Any LA +0 race is acceptable. Standard WBL, but try not to make it about the gear.

Can it be done? Or would even an army of Sorcerer 10s be unable to defeat a lone Wizard 20?

Two scenarios:

1.) no minionmancy/bound planar beings etc. allowed

2.) open slather on everything you can Gate in or otherwise have at your service (I'm assuming this scenario heavily favours the Wizard).

(This will either spawn many pages of vigorous debate, or be one of those one like 4 people reply to).

[edit]

Scenario 3, since 1 and 2 seems unwinnable for the Sorcerers.

3.) Core only Wizard 20 (race and spells from PHB only, gear from PHB and DMG only), no minionmancy, no spell research, only number of spells in his book are granted by Wizard levels (i.e. starting spells +2 per level after first). The Wizard resides on the material plane in a traditional "Wizard's Tower". The Sorcerers have access to all 1st party splatbooks. The Wizard and Sorcs are both seeking a straight confrontation, not trying to hide from each other, but the Wizard has the luxury of being in his home base.

Cheers - T

[Kraken]

I would define "decently optimized" a little more, with a few additional restrictions. Even going base class only for your wizard, at level 20 that still gives them astral projection abuse via all-day shapechange (as simple as some CL boosting, extend rod, and a pearl of power). This probably goes beyond what would be considered "decently optimized" for a lot of people, but at the same time, it being core only and extremely simple to pull makes it probably within that definition for some people, in which case the sorcerers would probably be screwed without teaming up and each getting particular scrolls and developing a plan of attack. Assuming they can get info on the wizard in the first place.

[Extra Anchovies]

Depends on what you mean by "decently optimized". By 20th level a Wizard has all the tools necessary to become immune to pretty much everything even without Singular Enemy cheese.

[Doctor Despair]

Odds are the sorcerers wouldn't be able to do much on their own. Wizards are kinda broken, especially at that level. The only case I can think of might be if there were enough to either worship one of the sorcerers and give him divine ranks (which he would need several of), though the wizard could ice assassin himself to do the same if divine ranks work that way in this world, or if there are enough sorcerers to actually attract a deity's attention to help, but that would be thousands and thousands, which doesn't seem very fair all things considered, haha.

[Inevitability]

No! Quickly, delete the thread! We don't want LordDarko/Vampire to show up in another of his blasphemous incarnations!

[Malroth]

Things we would have to assume are true in order for this contest to have any meaning, many high OP wizards have ways to avoid these things but lets assume he's off his game for some reason.

1) The wizard is in the universe
2) The sorcorers know he exists
3) Singular Enemy and Manipulate Form do not exist

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's no contest.

Wizard 16 vs X sorcerer 10's might work but 9th level spells tip the scales so much that they just fall over. Gate, genesis, astral projection; these are all game changers. Hell, SM 9 and shapechange are massive. A few 17th level sorcerers would be facing an uphill struggle against a lone wizard 20. Level 10's don't stand a chance.

[Hamste]

How many other sorcerers need to be killed by a single sorcerer before you get an 18th level one? Maybe repeat that a few times and win through the power of numbers and ninths.

[AvatarVecna]

Determining X could be difficult...assuming it actually exists, so let's see if it's theoretically possible for any number of Sorcerer 10s to even affect a Wizard 20 (since the ability to affect him even the teeniest tiniest bit means that there's some number of sorcerers who might theoretically be capable of harming him).

Wizard 20 can cast Genesis, which creates a spherical demiplane with a 180 ft radius floating somewhere in the Ethereal Plane. Mind Blank makes divinations against the Wizard fail, I'm sure there's ways to ward areas against Divinations, and Forbiddance (which you'd need 4 castings of to cover the whole demiplane) prevents Planar Travel to within the area (although it keeps the wizard from using Planar Travel to get out as well, but there's likely a way around that). The sorcerers have access to Plane Shift, but that's about it; that puts them within 5-500 miles of this 180 ft radius sphere floating somewhere in the Ethereal Plane, assuming it worked properly at all.

In other words, they have no way of detecting the plane or the wizard, so their only recourse is to Plane Shift en masse into the Ethereal Plane and start combing through it...but the EP is layered over the Material Plane, so it's got to as big as the MP. Assuming Material Plane is comparable to the IRL Universe Material Plane, searching the whole thing for a sphere 180 ft in radius is going to require a lot of sorcerers. On the other hand, the number of sorcerers necessary for this to work almost guarantees that once they find him, they might actually have enough available firepower to blast the Wizard and his Demiplane to smithereens.

68719476736

That's how many sorcerers you need for a pyramid-style tournament that will result in 36 rounds of 1v1 sorcerers...who level up by killing equal-level sorcerers; after 36 tournament rounds, you'll have a Sorcerer 20, who can actually stand a chance against a Wizard 20.

[ben-zayb]

Technically, one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430414-Naughty-Sorceress-(Level-8-Miracle-Wish-Gate-Shapechange-Sarrukh-Wealth-Pact-free-TO)) level 8th, with some time for preparation. Of course, it's almost for the same reason that a commoner 1 or a paladin 1 can defeat a wizard 20.


Barring TO, it's just impossible. Just the gulf between 1 spell level is big enough, and now you have 4 spell levels of difference.

[weckar]

Circle Magic + General Action economy MIGHT even the odds when you have 40+ or so Sorcerers. If at this point we are under the assumption, though, that both sides have time to prepare: Wizard has it - Always. The only way any number of sorcerers could come close to winning is sheer atrophy of the wizard's spell slots. Wave after wave of sorcerers should eventually wear him down and a theoretical infinite number of sorcerers is impossible to teleport away from if they in turn all teleport to a random location in the universe (and have a 'telephone tree').

[AvatarVecna]

I only went with pyramid tourney style because it seems the fairest way for the best man to win. The most efficient way to go about it would be to have one sorcerer kill 50 Sorcerer 10s in a row (reaching lvl 17), before switching to fighting several Sorcerer 12s at once to level up the rest of the way to 20. I'd calculate the exact numbers necessary, but it probably wouldn't take more than 250 sorcerers total to pull this plan off.

[weckar]

I only went with pyramid tourney style because it seems the fairest way for the best man to win. The most efficient way to go about it would be to have one sorcerer kill 50 Sorcerer 10s in a row (reaching lvl 17), before switching to fighting several Sorcerer 12s at once to level up the rest of the way to 20. I'd calculate the exact numbers necessary, but it probably wouldn't take more than 250 sorcerers total to pull this plan off.

It does Always amaze me how few combats it actually requires to level up in this game. I'm currently in an arena-style campaign where we are easily getting 2-3 levels a session....

[Hamste]

Determining X could be difficult...assuming it actually exists, so let's see if it's theoretically possible for any number of Sorcerer 10s to even affect a Wizard 20 (since the ability to affect him even the teeniest tiniest bit means that there's some number of sorcerers who might theoretically be capable of harming him).

Wizard 20 can cast Genesis, which creates a spherical demiplane with a 180 ft radius floating somewhere in the Ethereal Plane. Mind Blank makes divinations against the Wizard fail, I'm sure there's ways to ward areas against Divinations, and Forbiddance (which you'd need 4 castings of to cover the whole demiplane) prevents Planar Travel to within the area (although it keeps the wizard from using Planar Travel to get out as well, but there's likely a way around that). The sorcerers have access to Plane Shift, but that's about it; that puts them within 5-500 miles of this 180 ft radius sphere floating somewhere in the Ethereal Plane, assuming it worked properly at all.

In other words, they have no way of detecting the plane or the wizard, so their only recourse is to Plane Shift en masse into the Ethereal Plane and start combing through it...but the EP is layered over the Material Plane, so it's got to as big as the MP. Assuming Material Plane is comparable to the IRL Universe Material Plane, searching the whole thing for a sphere 180 ft in radius is going to require a lot of sorcerers. On the other hand, the number of sorcerers necessary for this to work almost guarantees that once they find him, they might actually have enough available firepower to blast the Wizard and his Demiplane to smithereens.

68719476736

That's how many sorcerers you need for a pyramid-style tournament that will result in 36 rounds of 1v1 sorcerers...who level up by killing equal-level sorcerers; after 36 tournament rounds, you'll have a Sorcerer 20, who can actually stand a chance against a Wizard 20.

Fewer than that if they kill lower level sorcerers. The difference between the exp from killing an 11th level sorcerer and a 10th one when you are level 11 is just 1100 exp (3300 as opposed to 2200). You therefore are more efficient killing the 10ths that the eleventh would have killed. The optimal way involves killing them in singular groups until you can't level up any more and then group them up to kill them for exp. Only allow them to level up to 11 when you literally can't get exp from 10ths any more.

And ninja'd.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Can't be done without the sorcerers leveling;

1) Wizard casts Magnificent Mansion on Astral Plane
2) Wizard enters Magnificent Mansion
3) Wizard dimension-locks Magnificent Mansion
4) Wizard is permanently safe from anything the Sorcerors (or anyone else without Disjunction) can do.

Can't be done with the sorcerers leveling:

1) Wizard casts Gate.
2) Wizard commands called CR 25+ beings to fight him.
3) Wizard slays being and levels.
4) Repeat.
5) Wizard levels at a rate much faster than the sorcerors.

[Hamste]

Can't be done without the sorcerers leveling;

1) Wizard casts Magnificent Mansion on Astral Plane
2) Wizard enters Magnificent Mansion
3) Wizard dimension-locks Magnificent Mansion
4) Wizard is permanently safe from anything the Sorcerors (or anyone else without Disjunction) can do.

Can't be done with the sorcerers leveling:

1) Wizard casts Gate.
2) Wizard commands called CR 25+ beings to fight him.
3) Wizard slays being and levels.
4) Repeat.
5) Wizard levels at a rate much faster than the sorcerors.

Why would the wizard be able to level up killing cr 25+ beings faster than a sorcerer killing cr 10 beings? Even if the wizard is gating in glooms (A really weak cr 25 creature) they are still working on limited spells per day unless we are saying infinite spells are only decent optimization. If the wizard uses a fast time plane to do it then the sorcerers presumably can as well. A sorcerer should kill a lot more level 10 sorcerers in a day than a wizard can gate in creatures to fight.

[weckar]

Can't be done without the sorcerers leveling;

1) Wizard casts Magnificent Mansion on Astral Plane
2) Wizard enters Magnificent Mansion
3) Wizard dimension-locks Magnificent Mansion
4) Wizard is permanently safe from anything the Sorcerors (or anyone else without Disjunction) can do.

Can't be done with the sorcerers leveling:

1) Wizard casts Gate.
2) Wizard commands called CR 25+ beings to fight him.
3) Wizard slays being and levels.
4) Repeat.
5) Wizard levels at a rate much faster than the sorcerors.

To be fair, in that first scenario the Wizard doesn't 'win' either. It's more like a stalemate if anything.

[Inevitability]

To be fair, in that first scenario the Wizard doesn't 'win' either. It's more like a stalemate if anything.

He can create Ice Assassins of himself in some area where they won't be able to attack him (a selective antimagic field should work) then create Ice Assassins of those Ice Assassins, then command the surviving ice assassins to kill the sorcerers.

[Quertus]

Thankfully, the CR system appears to work on this case. Someone should not be challenged by a group of creatures 8+ levels below them.

Wizard uses his advanced skill ranks to plane shift to plane the sufferers have never heard of. Spell research and all the spells to effectively adventure from there.

Bonus points of if is a fast time plane.

[ben-zayb]

Thankfully, the CR system appears to work on this case. Someone should not be challenged by a group of creatures 8+ levels below them.

Wizard uses his advanced skill ranks to plane shift to plane the sufferers have never heard of. Spell research and all the spells to effectively adventure from there.

Bonus points of if is a fast time plane.

What if the Wizard is the PC and these sorcs are just mooks?

The wizard can also just level-drain itself to 17th.

[daremetoidareyo]

35

or

23 if we can play around with wealth by level and statistics.

Mathematically, it may not be too terribly hard. Assuming wizard is foolhardy and decides to have a showdown with Mr Smith sorcerers (all the same build) and decides to meet them on a flat plains type scenario. Assume the sorcerers circle the mage.

Assume the sorcerers are azurins that have all 3rd level slots filled with dispel magic. Assume the Domain access acf from complete champion, and the inquisition domain (SC). Also, metamagic specialist ACF from PHB2.

Soultouched spellcasting (MoI) feat
Reactive counterspell feat (PGTF)

You might need a metamagic rod of quicken spell...or ten or 20.


You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.


So The DC for any given spell the wizard may cast is likely 11+20+1-2 school focus+1-2 other caster level boosts = 33-35.

Each sorcerer uses a dispel magic as a counterspell. Each sorcerer's dispel check is 1d20 + 10 +4 (inquisition domain) +2 soultouched spellcasting = 1d20+16

Which means that a 19 or 20 is necessary on each sorcerer's counterspell attempt. That's a 1/10 chance of any given sorcerer to nullify anything the wizard does. 10 sorcerers counterspelling, therefor have about a 65% chance of nullifying the wizard's action on any given round. 25 azurin level 10 sorcerer's can reasonably expect to shut down a level 20 wizard 92% of the time, with additional sorcerers being able to dispel other effects already in play. 35 azurin sorcerer's can expect a 97.5% chance per spell that the wizard casts of not occuring.
Any sorcerer who lose initiative to the wizard is set to either attack him with something or area dispel to begin getting through prepped spell defenses.

If, however, the range changes a little bit, we'll need fewer than 35.
I'll look up some ways to boost that dispel check a little more. Dispelling cord grants a +2 bonus to dispel checks, 5 times a day. Spellcaster's bane from CM grants another +2 to dispel checks. But it only lasts 1/round per level. But, adding a dedicated sorcerer with Spellcaster bane + metamagic rod of twin spell will help. With the range of counterspelling dropped to 17-20 (20 sorcerers have a 97% chance) or 15-20 (20 sorcerers have a 99% chance of counterspelling, 15 have a 98% chance).

So if we're minimizing the # of sorcerers, 15 dedicated dispellers with cords. 8 with twin spell (rod) spellcaster banes who activate first round. = 23. For 5 rounds, they have a 98-99% chance of shutting down any spell the wizard casts. After that they have 4 rounds of counterspelling any spell. Any round where the wizard spell is countered early, all subsequent sorcerers casts any of its high power reflex based damage spells. 10d6 ~17-35 damage apiece for a lightning bolt.

[Flickerdart]

Without assuming that the wizard is served to the sorcerers on a platter, this can be easily achieved with infinity Sorcerers. Simply place a sorcerer everywhere in the multiverse. A number of them will have discovered the wizard, and can begin spamming SoDs and disjunction scrolls at him. The wizard has nowhere to flee - everywhere is sorcerers.

[AvatarVecna]

35

or

23 if we can play around with wealth by level and statistics.

Mathematically, it may not be too terribly hard. Assuming wizard is foolhardy and decides to have a showdown with Mr Smith sorcerers (all the same build) and decides to meet them on a flat plains type scenario. Assume the sorcerers circle the mage.

Assume the sorcerers are azurins that have all 3rd level slots filled with dispel magic. Assume the Domain access acf from complete champion, and the inquisition domain (SC). Also, metamagic specialist ACF from PHB2.

Soultouched spellcasting (MoI) feat
Reactive counterspell feat (PGTF)

You might need a metamagic rod of quicken spell...or ten or 20.



So The DC for any given spell the wizard may cast is likely 11+20+1-2 school focus+1-2 other caster level boosts = 33-35.

Each sorcerer uses a dispel magic as a counterspell. Each sorcerer's dispel check is 1d20 + 10 +4 (inquisition domain) +2 soultouched spellcasting = 1d20+16

Which means that a 19 or 20 is necessary on each sorcerer's counterspell attempt. That's a 1/10 chance of any given sorcerer to nullify anything the wizard does. 10 sorcerers counterspelling, therefor have about a 65% chance of nullifying the wizard's action on any given round. 25 azurin level 10 sorcerer's can reasonably expect to shut down a level 20 wizard 92% of the time, with additional sorcerers being able to dispel other effects already in play. 35 azurin sorcerer's can expect a 97.5% chance per spell that the wizard casts of not occuring.
Any sorcerer who lose initiative to the wizard is set to either attack him with something or area dispel to begin getting through prepped spell defenses.

If, however, the range changes a little bit, we'll need fewer than 35.
I'll look up some ways to boost that dispel check a little more. Dispelling cord grants a +2 bonus to dispel checks, 5 times a day. Spellcaster's bane from CM grants another +2 to dispel checks. But it only lasts 1/round per level. But, adding a dedicated sorcerer with Spellcaster bane + metamagic rod of twin spell will help. With the range of counterspelling dropped to 17-20 (20 sorcerers have a 97% chance) or 15-20 (20 sorcerers have a 99% chance of counterspelling, 15 have a 98% chance).

So if we're minimizing the # of sorcerers, 15 dedicated dispellers with cords. 8 with twin spell (rod) spellcaster banes who activate first round. = 23. For 5 rounds, they have a 98-99% chance of shutting down any spell the wizard casts. After that they have 4 rounds of counterspelling any spell. Any round where the wizard spell is countered early, all subsequent sorcerers casts any of its high power reflex based damage spells. 10d6 ~17-35 damage apiece for a lightning bolt.

So to be clear: when the OP said "decently optimized Wizard 20", what you heard was "Wizard who's stupid enough to pick a direct fight in close range with a large number of lesser foes, the scenario that gives said lesser foes the greatest ability to take advantage of their superior numbers and deliberately ignores several of the natural advantages the Wizard has due to their higher level"? I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

[Inevitability]

Without assuming that the wizard is served to the sorcerers on a platter, this can be easily achieved with infinity Sorcerers. Simply place a sorcerer everywhere in the multiverse. A number of them will have discovered the wizard, and can begin spamming SoDs and disjunction scrolls at him. The wizard has nowhere to flee - everywhere is sorcerers.

Depending on what kind of infinity you mean, this might not be true. Several planes, such as the Abyss, are infinite too, so any amount of sorcerers placed there would still leave infinite places for the wizard to be without being detected.

[Zaq]

Yeah, this really depends on the terms of the encounter. Do the Sorcerers have to find the Wizard, or are they meeting in some kind of arena? Is the Wizard trying to kill (or otherwise defeat) the Sorcerers, or is the Wizard just trying to avoid being killed (or defeated)? Exactly how long in advance does the Wizard have to prepare for this fight (even ignoring minionmancy, we still want to know about buffs and prepared spells and stuff)? Is there anything preventing the Wizard from just buggering off to a different plane or to another place the Sorcerers can't really reach (Plane Shift is out of reach for a level 10 Sorcerer to know normally, so if the Wizard can get to another plane, the Sorcerers have to either use WBL or use weird alternate methods to follow)?

In the non-minionmancy version, if the Wizard is trying to kill the Sorcerers (and/or if the Wizard is prevented from really leaving the field of battle), I feel like it'll be possible for the Sorcerers to win, but it'll take a long time—their job is to play an attrition game and just wear down the Wizard without giving the Wizard a chance to recharge. Wizards DO run out of tricks, even level 20 ones, as long as the rules of the encounter prevent them from hiding in a demiplane and regaining spell slots. Shapechange will eventually run out. Foresight will eventually run out. Persistent buffs will eventually run out. The Sorcerers just need to have enough Sorcerers that the Wizard can't kill them all before the Wizard's buffs run out and the Wizard runs out of spell slots (each Wizard spell slot can potentially kill a very large number of Sorcerers, but the Wizard doesn't have infinite spell slots if they're disallowed the ability to run and hide, and we can keep adding more Sorcerers until the Wizard runs dry). I repeat, this is predicated entirely on the Wizard not being allowed to run and hide and recharge spell slots. One set of spell slots may allow a level 20 Wizard to take on anything the Sorcerers can do, but a single set of spell slots will not allow the Wizard to take on everything the Sorcerers can do, since we can just keep adding Sorcerers until the Wizard can't kill them all.

If the Wizard isn't trying to kill the Sorcs but is just trying to survive, or if the Wizard is allowed to run away to a different plane or a demiplane or some other place where they can safely prepare new spells, then yeah, Wizard wins. If the Wizard gets one and only one day's worth of spells and the Wizard is required to stick around until the end, then we can keep adding Sorcerers until the Wizard runs out of juice. (And don't say "reserve feats" for infinite juice. We're talking about level 10 Sorcerers, not level 10 Commoners. A reserve feat can't one-shot a Sorcerer, and even if the Wizard can apply buffs and/or BfC spells that allow for using reserve feats without retaliation, those buffs and those BfC spells are still going to run out eventually.)

[Ger. Bessa]

I think I can do it with a finite number of sorcerers. Throw them numerous enough at the wizard so he gets xp and frequently enough so he can't craft items. Soon, he'll level up and bye bye, wizard 20 is no more...

I forgot Spells with xp costs ! Damn it.

[daremetoidareyo]

So to be clear: when the OP said "decently optimized Wizard 20", what you heard was "Wizard who's stupid enough to pick a direct fight in close range with a large number of lesser foes, the scenario that gives said lesser foes the greatest ability to take advantage of their superior numbers and deliberately ignores several of the natural advantages the Wizard has due to their higher level"? I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

Why the saltiness?

I proposed a situation where a finite number of sorcerers can defeat one level 20 wizard. Yes it requires catching the wizard unaware, yes it requires line of sight and line of effect for 23 to 35 sorcerers at the same time, and somehow you get your hackles raised at the idea that mere magic using mortals could deign to threaten a hypothetical 20th level wizard caught in this one situation? If the wizard wanted to avoid the Mr. smith squad, then he just avoids them. But if he encounters them at random, his winning is not a foregone conclusion.

Maybe the wizard went to go buy some diamond dust or something and a sorcerers convention including a school bus of the same exact azurin show up, some coffee gets spilled, the wizard is all high and hubris-y, and the sorcerer swarm dispels everything and pounds him into the dirt. Weirder stuff has happened in D&D.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why the saltiness?

I proposed a situation where a finite number of sorcerers can defeat one level 20 wizard. Yes it requires catching the wizard unaware, yes it requires line of sight and line of effect for 23 to 35 sorcerers at the same time, and somehow you get your hackles raised at the idea that mere magic using mortals could deign to threaten a hypothetical 20th level wizard caught in this one situation? If the wizard wanted to avoid the Mr. smith squad, then he just avoids them. But if he encounters them at random, his winning is not a foregone conclusion.

Maybe the wizard went to go buy some diamond dust or something and a sorcerers convention including a school bus of the same exact azurin show up, some coffee gets spilled, the wizard is all high and hubris-y, and the sorcerer swarm dispels everything and pounds him into the dirt. Weirder stuff has happened in D&D.

If the sorcerers are stacking dispel bonuses then there's no reason to think the wizard isn't stacking CL buffs to defend against such attacks and one; count 'em, one; disjunction can shred gobs of those wands. Turning that 90~ish percent dispel rate to a much lower percentage, then he starts wrecking face with disintegrate and cone of cold and whatever other blasts he likes until he's getting low on attack magic and bolts. Then he hunts them down piece-meal at his leisure.

Spellblade dagger tuned to dispel magic also says, "Hi."

[AvatarVecna]

Why the saltiness?

I proposed a situation where a finite number of sorcerers can defeat one level 20 wizard. Yes it requires catching the wizard unaware, yes it requires line of sight and line of effect for 23 to 35 sorcerers at the same time, and somehow you get your hackles raised at the idea that mere magic using mortals could deign to threaten a hypothetical 20th level wizard caught in this one situation? If the wizard wanted to avoid the Mr. smith squad, then he just avoids them. But if he encounters them at random, his winning is not a foregone conclusion.

Maybe the wizard went to go buy some diamond dust or something and a sorcerers convention including a school bus of the same exact azurin show up, some coffee gets spilled, the wizard is all high and hubris-y, and the sorcerer swarm dispels everything and pounds him into the dirt. Weirder stuff has happened in D&D.

The point is that if you're arbitrarily altering the circumstances of the confrontation to give one side an advantage they can't realistically expect to ever have without the Wizard grabbing ahold of the Idiot Ball. The biggest problem for your solution is that it assumes the wizard does anything with his real body outside his unfindable, unenterable demiplane. That's what summoned minions/clones are for, from fighting random encounters of sorcerer-filled school buses to fetching groceries. The sorcerers might be able to take out whoever the wizard sent to do his dirty work, whatever the dirty work may be, but the wizard did not get to level 20 by being stupid; if he's leaving his house, he's not doing it without a small pile of defensive spells and contingencies, he's not doing it in a way that a bus full of sorcerers just sneaks up on him, and he's not being an arrogant B-hole to everyone he comes across on the off-chance they're a deity in disguise (unless they're a Tippy-level wizard, where they have the power necessary to get away with flipping off deities on a regular basis).

We're assuming a PO wizard, and borderline-TO sorcerers, while your scenario assumes a low-op Wizard. A freaking Commoner 1 can kill a Wizard 20 if the wizard just stands there and lets the Commoner stab him, it doesn't prove anything except that we can make the wizard act stupid enough to lose.

[Afgncaap5]

'Decently Optimized' is an odd term for these, and is itself subject to a lot of interpretation. I think it favors the wizard pretty heavily, but... if this level 20 wizard is decently optimized, but has just hit level 20 in a campaign that doesn't offer much time for independent spell research or magic marts, then you'd have a wizard with a fixed number of spells, and if we assume core only (that sorta flies in the face of 'decently optimized' by some definitions, I admit (even with the caveat that there's already a lot of crazy stuff you can do in core)) then you've got a level 20 wizard who, even if played with decent optimization who probably doesn't have a custom-built pre-prepared fortress.

Having said that: that's still eight-ish level nine spells to work with, and probably a lot of magic items picked up or crafted over the course of play.

Now, if we don't limit the sorcerers in the same way, open things up to being outside core books... I still think the wizard is going to have the edge. Is it conceivable for some number of level 10 sorcerers to beat this wizard? I think so but I wouldn't put money on it at any given moment. Even if the sorcerers somehow get to ignore the 9th level magic at the wizard's disposal, you've still got the 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells packing a pretty heavy punch, and the wizard's been using level 6 spells since it was their age. Well... their level.

[Thurbane]

I've added a 3rd scenario to see if we can give those plucky Sorcerers any chance at all.

[Afgncaap5]

I've added a 3rd scenario to see if we can give those plucky Sorcerers any chance at all.

Ah, fun. I like Scenario 3. I still think the Wizard would win, but in more of a "This is what my DM is throwing at me as a final challenge to wrap up the campaign" kind of way. As a clerifying question, though: is the Wizard allowed to use Wish to replicate any spells that the Sorcerers can use, or is this prohibited in some way?

[Zanos]

Determining X could be difficult...assuming it actually exists, so let's see if it's theoretically possible for any number of Sorcerer 10s to even affect a Wizard 20 (since the ability to affect him even the teeniest tiniest bit means that there's some number of sorcerers who might theoretically be capable of harming him).

Wizard 20 can cast Genesis, which creates a spherical demiplane with a 180 ft radius floating somewhere in the Ethereal Plane. Mind Blank makes divinations against the Wizard fail, I'm sure there's ways to ward areas against Divinations, and Forbiddance (which you'd need 4 castings of to cover the whole demiplane) prevents Planar Travel to within the area (although it keeps the wizard from using Planar Travel to get out as well, but there's likely a way around that). The sorcerers have access to Plane Shift, but that's about it; that puts them within 5-500 miles of this 180 ft radius sphere floating somewhere in the Ethereal Plane, assuming it worked properly at all.

In other words, they have no way of detecting the plane or the wizard, so their only recourse is to Plane Shift en masse into the Ethereal Plane and start combing through it...but the EP is layered over the Material Plane, so it's got to as big as the MP. Assuming Material Plane is comparable to the IRL Universe Material Plane, searching the whole thing for a sphere 180 ft in radius is going to require a lot of sorcerers. On the other hand, the number of sorcerers necessary for this to work almost guarantees that once they find him, they might actually have enough available firepower to blast the Wizard and his Demiplane to smithereens.]
I didn't think you could find a demiplane by just wandering the Ethereal.

[AvatarVecna]

I didn't think you could find a demiplane by just wandering the Ethereal.

TBH I'm not entirely sure you can either...of course, that just means that finding and entering the demiplane becomes flat-out impossible rather than just being an infinitely small chance that somebody will stumble across it eventually.

[Kraken]

For scenario 3, several sorcerers could wish transport (scrolls) to the wizard, cast celerity, and spam the wizard with spells. The question becomes what the best combo of spells with the fewest number sorcerers would be in this scenario. The wizard could possibly defend against this by putting their body in a room with no valid squares for the sorcerer to transport into, buying them time to fight away the sorcerers with astral projection clones (do those count as minionmancy?). Arguably, a wish could create a valid square (or a few) within the wizard's location to transport to, though. All this talk of relying on wish seems pretty inelegant, though.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, sticking the Wizard to core means that Team Sorcerer just needs one standard action with line of effect to the Wizard to win - Arcane Fusion [Magic Missile + Sanctum Arcane Fusion [Magic Missile + Sanctum Arcane Fusion[...]]] is arbitrarily high no-roll force damage. As far as I know there aren't any means to get immunity to force damage in core, or to cast non-readied spells during other character's turns.

Because of this, you actually only need three 10th-level Sorcerers, one of which only really needs to be 8th level.

Sorcerer A readies an action to cast Arcane Fusion when they see the wizard. Sorcerer B readies an action to cast Dimension Door after they are teleported. Sorcerer C casts Teleport to move themselves, Sorcerer A, and Sorcerer B into Dimension Door range of the Wizard. Sorcerer B arrives and casts their readied Dimension Door to move themselves and Sorcerer A into Magic Missile range of the Wizard. Sorcerer A arrives and casts their readied Arcane Fusion, chaining Magic Missiles and Sanctum Arcane Fusions for NI force damage. Wizard gets dusted.

[Zanos]

Well, sticking the Wizard to core means that Team Sorcerer just needs one standard action with line of effect to the Wizard to win - Arcane Fusion [Magic Missile + Sanctum Arcane Fusion [Magic Missile + Sanctum Arcane Fusion[...]]] is arbitrarily high no-roll force damage. As far as I know there aren't any means to get immunity to force damage in core, or to cast non-readied spells during other character's turns.
There's a 1st level spell that makes you immune to magic missile specifically, though.

[Inevitability]

There's a 1st level spell that makes you immune to magic missile specifically, though.

Sorcerers get spellcraft as a class skill, they should understand that the wizard is going to cast Shield. All you need then is a few dozen sorcerers on counterspell duty.

[Quertus]

Well, sticking the Wizard to core means that Team Sorcerer just needs one standard action with line of effect to the Wizard to win - Arcane Fusion [Magic Missile + Sanctum Arcane Fusion [Magic Missile + Sanctum Arcane Fusion[...]]] is arbitrarily high no-roll force damage. As far as I know there aren't any means to get immunity to force damage in core, or to cast non-readied spells during other character's turns.

Because of this, you actually only need three 10th-level Sorcerers, one of which only really needs to be 8th level.

Sorcerer A readies an action to cast Arcane Fusion when they see the wizard. Sorcerer B readies an action to cast Dimension Door after they are teleported. Sorcerer C casts Teleport to move themselves, Sorcerer A, and Sorcerer B into Dimension Door range of the Wizard. Sorcerer B arrives and casts their readied Dimension Door to move themselves and Sorcerer A into Magic Missile range of the Wizard. Sorcerer A arrives and casts their readied Arcane Fusion, chaining Magic Missiles and Sanctum Arcane Fusions for NI force damage. Wizard gets dusted.

Yeah, no. With persistent invisibility, permanent illusion, and polymorph any object, any wizard you see is not the wizard you are looking for. This team dies to the trap.

Also, persisted shield spell (and, to a lesser extent, brooch of shielding) put a damper in this plan.

Edit: and how is the 10th level sorcerer managing the NI spell slots to deal NI damage?

[Gandariel]

A better question:
How many Sorcerers can a wizard kill in a turn?

What if a relatively small number of sorcerers pop in and cast dispels + Dimensional lock?

The wizard will surely kill some on his turn, but next turn the remaining ones will burn him down.
If the wizard doesn't have a spell that kills everyone, something like 20-30 sorcerers should be enough.

No scrolls or cheese required (but the sorcerers need to be able to dispel, even on a 20, AND need to either have enough no-save damage or DCs the Wizard can fail)

[Quertus]

Personally, I like the idea of the wizard just collapsing his tower on the sorcerers, and relying on his contingency, superior HP, etc, to win.

Or fighting the sorcerers in anti-magic (having previously wished for a huge pile of quintessence or whatever). Assuming that the wizard is only slightly prepared, adamant full plate can give... what, DR 5?... against the sorcerers 1d8 crossbow damage. He is not proficient in the armor, and so takes a huge penalty to hit, mitigated by his multiple attacks and increased BAB. The thing I like most about this fight is that it is one where we can calculate exactly how many sorcerers are required.

[OldTrees1]

Wait, in the 2nd scenario(open minionmancy) isn't it a tie? Even Planar Binding abuse can bootstrap to NI Quantity X NI Quality IIRC.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, no. With persistent invisibility, permanent illusion, and polymorph any object, any wizard you see is not the wizard you are looking for. This team dies to the trap.

Core-only wizard doesn't have Persistent Spell. Contact Other Plane can determine what the wizard looks like. Scrolls of True Seeing are inside the Sorcerers' price range.

The wizard also needs a number of decoys greater than half the number of sorcerers, because for every four sorcerers there can be two who cast the Arcane Fusions (CL 10 Teleport can take along three friends, as can CL 10 Dimension Door).


Also, persisted shield spell (and, to a lesser extent, brooch of shielding) put a damper in this plan.

Core-only wizard doesn't have Persistent Spell, but I had forgotten that Shield is full immunity. I thought it had a damage-absorbed thingy like the brooch did.


Edit: and how is the 10th level sorcerer managing the NI spell slots to deal NI damage?

They aren't. Arcane Fusion consumes a 5th-level spell slot to cast a 4th-level spell and a 1st-level spell. The 1st-level spell is Magic Missile and the 4th-level spell is Sanctum Arcane Fusion.