15-Str Paladin/Warlock – Shield Master of Polearm Master?

[mer.c]

A little while back, I posted some questions about the Tiefling Paladin/Warlock I'm building (Ancients, Archfey, shooting for Paladin 7, then Warlock 3, then unknown). I'd probably run her for Princes of the Apocalypse, but that may change. Either way, she'll probably cap around level 16.

I feel pretty solid on the build, going for a tanky caster/controller with Shillelagh/shield, Dueling style, Thorn Whip, War Caster/Booming Blade, etc. But when I originally posted my build, I didn't realize that Shield Master and Polearm Master compete with each other for bonus actions on top of competing with moving Hex. So I'm curious as to which feat people would recommend.

Here are the starting stats and possible progression. Note that my playgroup ties ASIs to character level, except for the Fighter/Rogue extra ASIs.

15 Str
10 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
6 Wis
18 Cha

Level 1: Dueling Style
Level 4: War Caster
Level 8: Shield Master OR Polearm Master
Level 12: +2 Cha OR Resilience: Con
Level 16: +2 Cha OR Resilience: Con
Level 19: +2 Con OR Sentinel OR Tough

Yes, 6 wisdom. It's a big part of her backstory/character progression. Don't worry about it. :smallbiggrin: Also, I don't like the feel of Eldritch Blast in this build, and taking the Invocations for it means sacrificing much more thematically appropriate ones like Mask of Many Faces, Misty Vision, and Devil's Sight.

The build probably maxes out at 15 strength, so her shove DC won't be optimal. But she does have proficiency in Athletics, and if I know I'll be going up against enemies with only good Athletics or good Acrobatics, I can use Hex to give disadvantage on the appropriate ability to force them to make a weaker save. (That has to be done on casting Hex, though, so no changing unless recast.) But, getting a higher Dex save vs. single-target effects is nice, the semi-evasion is very good when you have Aura of Protection, and giving advantage on a successful shove prone is really powerful. The party will probably have a Swashbuckler, Wild Sorcerer, Ranger, and Moon Druid, so plenty of opportunities for melee attacks.

On the other hand, Polearm Master is just a damn good damage buff. It works with Quarterstaffs, synergizes with Hex's extra damage (and Improved Divine Smite if I get to Paladin 11), and even though I'm probably not going to have Sentinel, War Caster will still enable Booming Blade off the special Attack of Opportunity. The fact that the extra attack gets the full benefit of your attack modifier is especially potent. Also there's the consideration that if she ends up falling – which is a real possibility – that extra attack is going to be looking like a 1d4+10 or +12 depending on where her Charisma sits +1d6 from Hex. On the bad side, this is "just" a damage increase. No utility for other party members, and no defensive perks. I suppose there's also the fact that dealing extra damage would make her a better tank by making her a bigger target, but I don't know if it would be better at that than the threat of being knocked prone. At least it doesn't become moot against Huge or bigger creatures.

The one other thing I'm not decided on is the level 12/16 ASIs, whether to boost Cha to 20 first or if I want to grab Resilience: Constitution. I'll already have War Caster for advantage on Concentration checks, but I'll also be doing everything in my power to get enemies to attack me. So it may be worthwhile given almost all of my spells will be Concentration-based (Hex, Bless, Shield of Faith, Hold Person, Faerie Fire, Invisibility, Hypnotic Pattern, Suggestion, the occasional Moonbeam….) But that one I can probably feel out as I go.

What do people think? I'd be tempted to go with Shield Master for all the utility that shoving brings. I just don't know how often it'll be feasible with only 15 strength (even with Hex sometimes making them use their weaker skill). Although looking back at the likely party composition, I suppose the Ranger may end up using a bow and Swashbucklers have no trouble gaining advantage, so it would really be just me and the Druid getting the benefit.

[Joe the Rat]

The PAM route means that you always want to be shillelaghing with a quarterstaff - which is workable. Some folks will give you guff on the one-handed bonus attack, so get that argument settled with your DM before you lock in. Opportunity attack on inbound will always apply.

Shield Master will up your defenses, and give you an bonus action shove or knockdown. You can always benefit from the prone enemy advantage, and advantage is good for rogues (he doesn't have to set it up himself), but having push and pull options increases your ability to control. You can potentially separate opponents, which is good for setting up those one-on-one sneak attacks the Swashbuckler gets. Proficiency in Athletics will help. Most monsters don't have skill proficiency, so you are going against raw stats for the most part. That said, if you think you need Hex, it will take you two turns to make it pay off against "tough" targets: One bonus action to cast/move Hex, one bonus action to shield bash. Of course, you can always move Hex, then use one (or more!) of your Attack Action attacks to trip/shove.

Neither of them will work with spellcasting actions, but you can always use those turns to move Hex as necessary.

Of the two, I like Shield Master better, as it gives you more options, rather than more damage.

[tieren]

I wouldn't worry about proficiency on the Con saves. You'll already have advantage plus your Cha modifier on the save after Paladin level 6, you'll have magic resistance after Paladin level 7 and the 15 str means you'll be in heavy armor and shield so your AC should be pretty good.

As to shield master or PAM, you already identified the big problem is the competition for your bonus actions, particularly if you start off each combat needing to cast shillelagh. By the time you cast Shillelagh and attack, then cast hex and attack again, and then get to make a bonus action butt end attack you are three rounds in to the combat, and that assuming the target stayed up that long and you don't have to move hex to a new target.

Of the two the other (non-bonus action) features then become more important for differentiating them. I prefer the extra OA on PAM for creatures entering your reach. The dex save stuff from shield master you have covered already from adding your Cha modifier to your dex save already and being resistant to magic.

[hymer]

It would be nice if you take Resilient (Con) that you had an uneven Con score to start. You seem to have one uneven score, I don't know if there's anything you can do about switching things around.

[Arkhios]

It would be nice if you take Resilient (Con) that you had an uneven Con score to start. You seem to have one uneven score, I don't know if there's anything you can do about switching things around.

I'd like to second this.
With str 14, dex 10, con 15, int 10, wis 6, cha 18, you could get far with only chainmail and a shield. Besides, if you're going to abuse shillelagh with charisma anyway, you won't need much more strength, except for splint or plate.

[VegBru]

Getting advantage is a big deal. However, I am not sure that using shield master with your build is the best way to go about it. When the plan for getting someone prone rellies on a multi-round setup and your concentration (Hex), I think it has to many moving parts. Add that to the fact that maybe only you and the Monk benefit from it (and that it may actually give your Ranger disadvantage), and I don't think it's worth it in itself.

As a side note, I would probably concentrate on Bless rather than Hex.

PAM is a good thing in that it gives you more opportunities for smiting. That gives you a fearsome nova capability. Damage is good, if a bit boring.

You will not gimp yourself with any of these feats. The defensive part of SM will save you some hurt, and you can still use the shove even without the Hex and whatnot.

As for the Resilient:Con, I would probably not do that if I did not also plan to use one ASI for +1 STR and +1 CON. Which, by the way, is not a terrible idea.

[Corran]

Well, I am going to repeat some of the things that were already suggested.

Shillelaugh and hex (and moving it around) have messed up your action economy and you need to fix it. Via fixing it, feat selection will become clear.

But before we do that, lets talk about knocking enemies prone and giving melee buddies advantage (and ranged buddies disadvantage).

So, who are your allies? You say, they are probably a swashbuckler, moon druid, ranger and wild sorcerer. Hmmm, when looking at shield master, we look at our group for GWM and rogues, as they benefit the ost from giving them advantage. And we also look for ranged dpr's, as they get hurt by this tactics. You habe a swashbuckler rogue. That is good, that means he gets advantage so that will open to him the possibility to use his bonus action for sth else (most of the time) other than using it for an off-hand attack (because hopefully he will have already delivered his sneak attack with his main attack, because advantage). So he can use his bonus action for sth else, like one of the cunning action options. What are those? Disengage, he does not need to, because swashbuckler. Hide, if he can do that amidst combat (eg if halfling and the DM is agreeable), then he already has advantage. I dont see ant other major or common uses for his bonus action. Let alone that as a swashbuckler, he might be looking at hitting enemies that are not adjacent to you some of the times. I mean, he has that option open, he is not limited in attacking enemies next to you. So there is really no major beneft for the swashbucler. If for example he was an arcane trickster with BB/GFB, I would say that the benefit from knocking an enemy prone so that your AT ally can attack with advantage would be quite decent, as having access to a cantrip such as BB/GFB would make him not use the attack action, and hence count on an off-hand atack for sneak attack delivery. So no major benefit for the TWF swashbuckler rogue, from you knocking enemies prone.

Next up, sorcerer. No benefit here as well, in fact, he is hurt by attacking prone targets.

Ranger. If archer (which is most likely for the mjority of rangers, cause archer rangers work better than melee rangers), then your choice is clear. Do NOT take shield master. If he is a melee TWF ranger, there will be some benefit, though not enough imo to justify you taking the shield master feat. If he is for example a horde breaker GWM though, then shield master might be a good choice for you, assuming that the moon druid will be able to take up some forms that deliver some decent damage and would profit from having advantage due to attacking prone enemies (not much knowledge on druid forms on my part).

So, unless the ranger goes for an unconventional build that uses a heavy weapon and GWM, I would say, that you should not take shield master. Hex and athletics proficiency (even with a 15 str, 15 is quite decent) pair well with your shove bonus action, that's a fact. So you have covered the part using the feat adequately, the problem lies with the benefit you bestow to your group, which sadly is probably not enough to justify you taking the feat. Throw in your bonus action competition, and it becomes clear imo that you should avoid this feat.


Now lets talk about PM. You have no sentinel, you have no reach, and you have access to GFB/BB which are good (and most of the times better) alternatives to using the attack action, and you HAVE TO use your attack action in order to be able to make the butt-end attack (same as with shield master for the bonus action shove, they rely to you taking the attack action, and having access to superior cantrips is a problem). You also delay (or perhaps entirly avoid) the 11th paladin level that nets you IDS. These are the reasons for which PM is going to be a weaker option for your character, than what it could have done for you if your build was a bit different. Also, adds to your competition for bonus action, but that can be solved, more on that later.

What is for you, regarding polearm master? The fact that you have warcaster that you will make a slightly more powerful OA to an enemy who eneters your 5' reach.

We will come back to pm a bit later.

Lets talk action economy.
I talked earlier about a solution, well, I was mistaken, as my idea of using bless and shillelaugh in the first round of combat (yeah, that was my brilliant plan...) clearly does not work (due to bonus action casting restrictions). Anyway, this is why I never use shillelaugh paladin builds, as shillelaugh just messes up with the paladin's action economy. If you cast shillelaugh during the first round with your bonus action, that means that you cannot use a concentration spell until round 2, and you cannot use the butt-end attack until round 3. Everything is one round too late. Also, having GFB, you will probably going to be using that in the first two rounds of combat, since no butt-end attack, so there goes the shillelaugh benefit.

So, given that you will be able to use the butt-end attack for about half the rounds of combat you are going to be in (you start using it from round 3, and sometmes you will just have to move hex around, maybe you can spare that by using divine favor, but that means less damage, smaller duration which could mean spending more spell slots), and given everything else I mentioned in the ''PM compatability'' section, you are buying PM for less than half its value.

Lets assume the best case scenario for PM and shillelaugh. Assume an oathbreaker with his aura of hate. You use the first round to cast dreadful aspect and shillelaugh, and from round 2 you start full out attack, taking the attack action and the butt-end attack bonus action every single round thereafter. You could use hex or divine favor during round 2, actually, if the fight lasts for 4 rounds or more you might want to delay that butt-end attack till 3rd round in this case. Just consider sticking with divine favour (or maybe not even using a concentration spell at all) if you are fighting many weak mooks. And throw the hex against a boss battle.

The above ofc, which imo is a good scenario for your character, is strictly inferior (and by miles, I say miles!) to a single class oathbreaker, no matter at which level you make the comparison.


Sorry I wasnt much help, but I keep bumping on reasons as to why you shouldnt use your build, instead of finding a good way to go about it. And though I would suggest demolition instead of improvement, dont let my opinion discourage you playing what you want, afterall everything is not abou optimization.

[tieren]

Just for comparison's sake, let me share with you a similar build I am working on.

I want a forest gnome OotA paladin/Archfey warlock, getting plate mail was important to me so I also went 15 str. Gnome paladins can't get 20 str and 20 cha with standard point buy so I was looking at shillelagh to make it less MAD, which means lock will need to pick up pact of the tome as well.

Hes going to ride around on a medium mount with a shield in one hand and a staff in the other, which I am fluffing a bit to be wielded like a lance.

I decided to make him a mage slayer. Forest gnome gets racial advantage on 3 different kinds of spell saves, paladin aura gives +cha to all saves, and OotA gives resistance to magic. Seems natural to me mages are going to hate this guy.

because of the shield and the staff I looked hard at shield master and Polearm Master, but ultimately decided they didn't fit the build well because of the discussion points above. I'm going pal 8/ war 12 so I'll still get 5 ASI's, but one is needed for warcaster, and 3 to max my charisma, only leaving one open. Mage slayer lets me impose disadvantage on enemy saves for concentration checks, get OAs on casters casting in melee and gives me advantage on saves from spells cast within 5 feet.

My plan is to stay in the back and defend the squishy party members (perhaps with protection style) and toss Eldritch Blasts for the most part. When I see a caster I want to mess up I can charge forward on my mount or teleport us to their backline with a misty step, then use my attack and extra attack whacking the crap out of whim adding the warlock slots to divine smite both whacks. If they then back away from me I whack them again as an OA, if they stay and cast I whack them again as an OA and get advantage to save against their spell.

[Corran]

Just for comparison's sake, let me share with you a similar build I am working on.
Interesting build. Hopefully it's ok with the op if I discuss it, so we may all reach to some good conclusions regaring tomelock-paly multiclassing.


I want a forest gnome OotA paladin/Archfey warlock, getting plate mail was important to me so I also went 15 str. Wow, the stat bonuses really dont help you. Though that feature regaring the saves is a really good one, and combined with the OoA aura and your decent AC, you are one good tanky character. Though that contradicts a bit your later-mentioned figthing style of staying back and throwing EBs. Anyway, race and armor choices are your prerogative, I completely understand that, my next character is going to be an elf paly using str, so there.
Though one thing I should add, is that gven you have EB and a mount, so you dont care that much about your own movenment speed (because good ranged attack option and mount), you could drop str to a lower socre than 15. The movement penalty wouldn't hurt you that much. More points for con this way. For example, you drop str to 13, and you start with str 13, con 15, dex 10, int 10, wis 10, cha 15, with 1 point remaining to put in dex/int/wis, and you spend the an ASI on +1cha/+1con, 2 ASIs on +2 cha, and 1 feat on warcaster, leaving you 1 more feat for mage slayer, if you follow what you typed later.

Gnome paladins can't get 20 str and 20 cha with standard point buy so I was looking at shillelagh to make it less MAD, which means lock will need to pick up pact of the tome as well.
Sounds reaonable, though if not for other benefits it would not be worth the multiclassing. For example, EB can solve a lot of your problems (having a good ranged attack option is very important).


Hes going to ride around on a medium mount with a shield in one hand and a staff in the other, which I am fluffing a bit to be wielded like a lance.It's a wooden lance, simple stuff, I get it. And nice...!


I decided to make him a mage slayer. Forest gnome gets racial advantage on 3 different kinds of spell saves, paladin aura gives +cha to all saves, and OotA gives resistance to magic. Seems natural to me mages are going to hate this guy.Mages already hate his guy, mage slayer feat or not. In fact, I strongly advise against taking the mage slayer feat. Really really advise against it. Not only will you be taking it really late in the game, unless you delay the all important cha bumping (literally everything you do reies on cha, you want it maxed asap, with only warcaster taking priority. Actually, no shield spell, so why warcaster? Hmm, I am sure there are reasons, I will ask you again at the end of this post). Continuing about mage slayer, besides not being the best option to take it early, there is actually a tremendous amount of redundancy between what it gives you and what you already have as an forest gnome OoA paly. You already have saving throws against magic in half the saves, and he fact that you have resistance to damage from spells makes the advantage on saves a bit less necessary. Dont get me wrong, I am not syaing it's bad to have it, I am just saying that it does not synergize all that perfect. So the advanage against spells while within 5 feet of the mage, suffers great redundancy. Moreover, the reaction attack has to be a single melee attack, you cannot use warcaster combined with this aspect of the mage slayer feat unfortunately, so a single melee atack. Your single melee attacks are stand on d8+5 (assuming shillelaugh). No great weapon, no -5/+10 feats, no IDS, nothing. Not that great. The only good hing is that you can easily drop enemy casters' concentration with the EB that has a good range, but that again goes against your strategy when going against a mage, which is to get all up close abd personal. Bottom line, drop mage slayer, it will come very late if you use your ASIs wisely, and it wont even make a big difference.

What to get instead of mage slayer? Initially I thoug of mounted combatant, but I start to thing that an extra level on either paladin (3rd level spells, some great choices there, such as aura of vitality, revivify, heck, even magic circle and dispel magic are great, getting dispel magic from paladin opens up an option from warlock, because I instantly assumed you as a mage slayer themed character had already dispel magic), or warlock (level 7 arcanum, powerful stuff there).



Anyway, back to warcaster, why exactly did you take it? Apart from the advantage on concentraion checks.

[Foxhound438]

PAM gives you 3 attacks, which is good with any damage boosts, like hex or the eventual improved divine smite late on. Converting your bonus action and reaction both into damage is really strong.

Shield master gives you boosts to dex saves, mostly, but with resistance to damage from spells it's not super important, there are a few non-spell effects it'd help you with, but generally it's not that concerning for you. The bonus action it gives you is probably weaker overall, especially since it has to be your strength check attempting to shove them, so it will burn your bonus action with no effect 9 times out of 10.

So at the end of the day i'd probably ditch the shield master idea and just go PAM.

[mer.c]

Hm, very good points and advice all around. My first thought of this build was to use the damage stacking on top of PAM as a way of doing comparable damage with Eldritch Blast, but the action economy is pretty messed up and the pieces just don't fit together well. Plus, there's also Smite spells, Ensnaring Strike, Misty Step, and Aura of Vitality (if I take it to level 9) competing for bonus actions so… yeah. And as much as Hex would be a nice boost, since we probably won't have a Cleric, it only better than Bless if I'm on my last spell slot and it looks like we have a ways before our next rest.

Although, with all that said, using Hex sparingly means more Bonus Actions for the butt-end attack on Polearm Master, so that's worth considering. But then without Hex, at level 12 assuming 20 Cha, you're looking at *napkin math ensues* 12 extra damage before factoring in hit chance from making all 3 attacks than just using Booming Blade without the target even moving or GFB with only 1 target. With miss chance, that's about 7-8 damage per round. That's not a small sum of damage, but it's probably not worth going for before +2 Cha, which boosts damage, hit, spellcasting, and friendly saves.

Anyways, it's back to the drawing board on this one. First though, I should probably lay out my idea for the character.

We've got one other damage sponge in the Moon Druid, a not-too-squishy-but-not-tanky Swashbucler, an archer Ranger (Beast Master), and a Wild Sorcerer. Several classes that can lay out more damage than I can outside novaing. And all of the big damagers have strong positional preferences. That means denying enemy positioning is going to be a big part of what I contribute.

So one big aim is to lock things down, part of that means being a credible threat. Being an Ancients Paladin helps with both of those things in different ways. Auras, Smite, Dueling style, etc.

Then, partly for mechanical/synergy reasons and partly for RP reasons, she's multiclassing to Archfey Tome Warlock. That gives her a few things:


Shillelagh for less MAD (Can always just Bless turn 1, Shillelagh + Attack/Cantrip turn 2)
Booming Blade, GFB, and Thorn Whip for control
Mirror Image for concentration-free supertanking
Additional battlefield control, attacking on a different axis (Hold Person, Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, etc.)
Extra smiting per short rest, scaling in power with Warlock level
A fey trickster slant: Minor Illusion, Alter Self and Silent Image at will, Friends, Invisibility, Faerie Fire
Some really damn awesome rituals from Book of Ancient Secrets at Warlock 5 (Find Familiar and Beast Sense to start with, already having Speak with Animals)


Taking all that into account, this makes her an even better tank, with additional battlefield control and utility. That's all added onto her Paladin buffs and resilience.

Where this really lacks is in non-nova damage potential. That's not the worst thing since it's not her job, but it makes tanking more difficult. That was the idea behind Polearm Master and Shield Master, which now looks more like a nonbo than a combo. Polearm Master's attack when approached can add extra damage off BB or GFB, but enemies will try to avoid me, so that wouldn't happen often. Maybe on those off-chances where I stop within 10' of someone and Thorn Whip them next to me, but that seems like a pretty corner case.

What might make sense, then, is to forget about those feats and look into Sentinel instead. I'd initially ruled it out because of some overlap/nonbo with War Caster/Booming Blade, but: 1) it swings even if the target Disengages, 2) it completely shuts down their movement if it hits, and 3) the attacks-another-target trigger, while not a trigger for War Caster castings, is still an extra attack. Most importantly, all of those attacks can have Smites attached to them. And since Sentinel is eating my reactions and not bonus actions, it should gel better with the rest of what I'm doing.

Really, what I'm starting to think here is that even though I can't consistently push out big damage without going nova, I can still do some hard locks with Sentinel. On top of that, Sentinel opens up the threat of pushing out additional damage if an enemy ignores me to attack someone else (even if you can't GFB/BB off it, you can Smite). And of course you always have Misty Step (there's that bonus action again!) to get yourself wherever you're least wanted. Moving, slapping one enemy with Booming Blade, then Misty Stepping (Bonus Action + Cantrip = action economy goodness) to threaten a Sentinel reaction attack with 3 or 4d8 smite damage on someone else.

I still like the idea of War Caster because I imagine Concentration is always going to be a factor, plus it lessens the problems of casting with weapon + shield (especially since stowing my staff makes Shillelagh fall off). So maybe something like Level 4 War Caster, Level 8 Sentinel, Level 12 +2 Cha, Level 16 Resilience: Constitution.

Also a brief word on Eldritch Blast:

Our playgroup has another person wanting to go Warlock, too. We like the spell selection and feel, but we hate that the class is balanced so heavily around EB. So we're going to try giving our Warlocks the option to just ignore EB and get an extra Pact Magic spell slot. We'll see how it goes.

[tieren]

Anyway, back to warcaster, why exactly did you take it? Apart from the advantage on concentraion checks.

Mostly for the casting with both hands full, I don't want to be constantly dropping my staff to cast anything.

And thanks for the idea of ignoring the str requirement for plate and not relying on my personal movement speed. Definitely merits consideration.

I also get he'll be a mage slayer by style long before he ever, if ever gets the feat at level 20, it just seems more flavorful than the more practical options at that point.

I'm trying to focus on a sweet spot from levels 10 to 16.