Archer Paladin: Viable or trash?

[Azreal]

One of my players wants to play a Paladin who mains using a bow.
Would a ranged smite be broken?
What's the best way to go about this?

[Slipperychicken]

I don't think it would be broken at all.

As far as I can tell, the only reason they can't do it is because the designers wanted to encourage imagery of paladins in melee. That is, facing evil "head on" and honorably rather than doing anything that could be construed as false, unfair, or cowardly.

[EvilAnagram]

Not by RAW, but if it's cool with you, then it might be broken. Being able to deal that much damage from relative safety is questionable.

[Demonic Spoon]

Not by RAW, but if it's cool with you, then it might be broken. Being able to deal that much damage from relative safety is questionable.

How's that different than an action surging BM archer fighter?

[Oramac]

The actual damage isn't really any different (and possibly a tad less depending on the weapons compared), but as EvilAnagram said, it's a lot of damage to be doing from range.

That being said, I personally like the idea and am actually working on a homebrew Oath for a ranged paladin.

[EvilAnagram]

How's that different than an action surging BM archer fighter?

That's a solid point. I think Paladins have higher nova damage until level 11, but it's still worth discussing.

[Azreal]

So the best way to handle it, is the same way to handle a normal paladin then. Make them be wary of burning through their spells too fast.

[KorvinStarmast]

You can build a Dex paladin who uses sword and shield in some fights, and eventually sharpshooter to make the archery stronger. His nova ability would still be in melee. His tanking ability goes up a bit depending upon what fighting style you take and probably use of the shield master feat at some point (maybe second feat?) He can mix it up in melee without getting hit too often, but his melee damage (probably rapier or short sword) only gets impressive when he picks that moment to apply divine smite.

The question is, what fighting style?
Defense: +1 bonus to AC. not bad.
Dueling: a melee weapon in one hand, and a shield .. +2 damage (Good early, fades later)
Great Weapon Fighting: Does not benefit from dex, so a problem.
Protection use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll against an ally if you are using a shield.

That can be a real boost to a party, and make the rogue up front (with perpetual sneak attack) feel a bit more secure about mixing it up.

Paladin would need to get a breast plate (which allows for using some dex bonus to armor) as soon as practicable.

Is it optimized?

Probably not, but does that matter?

Providing you've got a bursty caster in the support line, this Paladin's contribution to the team (and the occasional heal/neutralize poison) would be solid, and I think he could help a rogue shine.

[EvanescentHero]

If a player wanted to play a ranged paladin and be able to apply smites on their ranged attacks, I would allow it...with the caveat that ranged attacks are the only attacks they can use to smite. That is, they trade out their melee smites for ranged ones.

[KorvinStarmast]

If a player wanted to play a ranged paladin and be able to apply smites on their ranged attacks, I would allow it...with the caveat that ranged attacks are the only attacks they can use to smite. That is, they trade out their melee smites for ranged ones. Hmm, makes the Paladin a heck of a ranged assassin, if you toss in Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter.

"You can run, but you'll just die tired."

Heh. Suggest this Paladin be order of the Ancients, wood elf, named White Feather (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock).

[Citan]

One of my players wants to play a Paladin who mains using a bow.
Would a ranged smite be broken?
What's the best way to go about this?
Hi OP!

Ok first of all:

1. Playing a Bowman Paladin without changing any rule is doable with a specific build and playstyle.
You will still have to engage into melee for when the worst happen but you can very well use only the bow for mundane fights. It requires the Devotion archetype though, and multiclassing in Fighter would help greatly.
It's just that instead of blowing your spell slots on smite, you spend them on buffs or the few smite spells that work with ranged attacks by RAW.
You still get very good at dealing consistent damage thanks to the obvious Sharpshooter feat which malus is offset by Devotion's Sacred Weapon, and you can still use Branding Smite (against invisible) and the great Banishing Smite, as well as Elemental Weapon or Crusader's Mantle (great if you have pals such as Rogue or Ranger for example). As well as other useful spells such as Command, Auras, etc...

In short, you will clearly lose some power and global efficiency compared to a normal Paladin, unless you rush into melee when it's needed. But you're not a dead weight and still can have plenty of fun, because instead of focusing on nova damage, you just focus on one of the many other roles the Paladin can fulfill well. One could daresay that the fact that you can't blow slots on smiting will be liberating, making you one of the few Paladins that actually exploit their spellist instead of just casting Bless and smiting away. :)

2. To play a "classic" Paladin with bow, the simplest thing you could do would be to allow the following
a) all smite spells to work with ranged attack.
b) Improved Divine smite works on ranged attacks.
c) Divine Smite to be applicable to ranged attacks made against enemies within 10 feet.
Otherwise said, only the Divine Smite would be restricted (but not totally forbidden), but all other features would work.

Why these specific suggestions?
a) Since smite spells require a bonus action, it seems a fair trade to me.
b) As for Improved Divine Smite, forbidding it would seem punitive to me, while allowing it is just putting this kind of Paladin on par with normal Paladin.
c) Allowing the Divine Smite in close quarters seems balanced to me, because it forces the Paladin to weigh risks against benefits, while not forcing him to switch to a melee weapon. So it avoids potential OPness of sure-killing an enemy from a safe distance, without hindering too much the player (he's not even required to take Crossbow Expert, although he would probably take it anyway).

3. An alternative would be the following:
- allow him to swap spells from Paladin's list with specific spells of same levels, such as Flame Arrows, Lightning Arrows etc...
- and/or allow Divine Smite on range with a resource-restriction (such as one per short-rest for example, or suffering one level of Exhaustion once the turn ends).
I think this is less practical and "sure" than the previous be it can work also.

4. Simply allow Divine Smite on ranged attacks, see where it goes...
And if it goes out of hand, put sometimes an encounter which forces everyone to fight at close range or encounters where line of sights are easy to block.


Have fun :)

[Sir cryosin]

Just off the top of my head the damge would be comparable to a hunter ranger with sharpshooter, hunters mark, Colossus slayer, the ranger will have more sustained and consistent damage. Then a nova paladin but that's just damage.

[lebefrei]

Paladins are designed around being in melee range with other allies. That is why they only have 10ft radius auras at first. A bowman Paladin at up to 150ft range is not only by RAW not able to Smite or Improved Smite, but he is also not putting his melee allies into an aura. If he does, he risks being at disadvantage with his attacks.

The answer to this is to build a new Oath. Call it Oath of the Straight Arrow. It will use most of Devotion's features as per the name (A "straight arrow" is probably lawful good). Feel free to switch ranged spells out as long as they're balanced.

By taking this Oath your melee weapons may no longer smite, nor benefit from improved divine smite. Instead any ranged non-throwing weapon (Dex based paladin subclass!) that you use will instead smite. He may take the Archery fighting style, and lose access to Sacred Weapon (+2 permanent vs +3-5 for one minute, basically equal trade in my mind)

Your hit die remains d10 to match a ranger, but you may not use heavy armor to benefit from this Oath. (And why would you if you're Dex based?) His auras lose their range and instead effect himself and one ally that he can see. At level 10 this changes to two allies, and at level 18 to three. Multiclassing in and out of this Oath requires 13 Dex and Cha.

Make the lore about one Devotion Paladin that stood on a wall to a small village with nothing but a bow and hundreds arrows, holding off a besieging hoard of bugbears. As he pulled off his tiring heavy armor, and fired arrow after arrow he learned to channel his smite instead through the arrows. He found by the end of the battle, with dozens of dead bugbear everywhere, that he could no longer smite through his sword. Now he spreads these teachings, using his bow to defend the weak.

[Georlik]

It seems to me that your player is all about fluff, not minmaxing. I personally suggest taking the path of lesser resistance.
Choose Paladin of The Ancients. Make sure that your go-to spells are Ensnaring Strike and Branding Smite. Take Dexterity, Defense Fighting Style and use a bow. You are set.
Surely you won't use the Divine Smite ability very often, but you can still smite with your 2 spells effectively. More so you can kite very effectively via Find Steed spell.
Use your other spellslots for utility purposes and grant your aura bonuses for the last line of defense (like casters and other ranged characters). This is a perfect paladin for an elf scouting group for example.

[rtrnofdmax]

The OoV Paladin ability Vow of Enmity only requires the Pally to be within 10 when used. So head in, drop the Vow, and back out with the rest of your move. Advantage gives an average of a +3 bonus over 1-20. In the needed roll range of 7-14, it's more like a +4 or +5 to the roll. Also, you get the full benefit of Advantage at level 3, but won't reap the rewards of a +5 CHA until 10+.

Source (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/353dep/5e_how_powerful_is_advantagedisadvantage_vs_flat/)

[JackPhoenix]

While Divine Smite needs melee weapon attack, some (not all) smite spells work with any weapon even without houserules (Banishing Smite, Branding Smite, propably others... Blinding Smite needs melee weapon, I haven't checked the others)

[Ruslan]

A ranged Smite is very flavorful, especially for races that are naturally good with ranged weapons, such as Halflings and Elves. I can totally envision the elven god of Archery and Hunting imbue his most loyal followers with this ability.

[AmbientRaven]

I have a Javelin paladin in my game. Seeing him throw javelin of holy explosiveness is awesome fun!
My girlfriends back up is also a sling using paladin in another game.

I personally see no problems with ranged archer. Though maybe reduce smite die by 1 size to make up for the added safety of being at range, but only for bows/cross bows. Slings, Javelins and other short range weapons would be fine
Say this purely because Paladins use a lot of spells for defence in melee combat.

[Drackolus]

You knooow, a paladin can use close quarters shooter.

Personally, I think you should just let him take the archery style, use the spells and the ranged smite. I don't think it will be a problem.

[Kane0]

Viable.

Might want to discuss ranged smites with your dm, maybe trade heavy armor/shield prof for it.

[MeeposFire]

Viable.

Might want to discuss ranged smites with your dm, maybe trade heavy armor/shield prof for it.

While I have no issue with creating a ranged paladin with smites this is an example of trading nothing for something. By and large most ranged weapon attacks are made with dex and require officially two hands to use even if it is a one handed weapon due to the loading property (which makes the classic sling and shield combo sadly not possible but that is for another day). This means that shields and heavy armor were unlikely to be used in the first place so trading them makes little difference for the character.

Not saying you shouldn't do it but it is just an observation of the trade that I have seen many times.

[djreynolds]

You do get elemental weapon, that's cool for an archer. And bless is nice casted on yourself. Both are concentration I think. But you could select magic initiate and get firebolt or eldritch blast as those scale well and can be used with range.

I loved me an archer from 3E who took divine might as divine damage was nice to have. Is this what you are thinking of?

[Kane0]

While I have no issue with creating a ranged paladin with smites this is an example of trading nothing for something. By and large most ranged weapon attacks are made with dex and require officially two hands to use even if it is a one handed weapon due to the loading property (which makes the classic sling and shield combo sadly not possible but that is for another day). This means that shields and heavy armor were unlikely to be used in the first place so trading them makes little difference for the character.

Not saying you shouldn't do it but it is just an observation of the trade that I have seen many times.

I didnt suggest it for balance, at least not in that sense. I dont know why ranged smiting isnt a thing in the first place.

[MrStabby]

So my concern is not so much about damage whilst being safe, but about target selection and output over the whole battle.

Firstly, in some encounters an effective range attack basically gives you an extra round of damage output whilst the enemy closes. In my personal experience a lot of encounters happen in rooms so this is less of an issue, but it my swing things a bit in an open air campaign.

More importantly to me is target selection, coupled with nova damage. A close quarters paladin has to get past the enemy front-line to pick of their archers or wizards, a nova class freed up to focus on Dex over Str will probably win initiative quite often and be able to take a wizard out of the fight before they get to cast a spell. A traditional paladin may go after the wizard in initiative order, takes a turn to close the gap, takes a turn to get mast the mooks then can lad down the pain on the wizard (possibly after they have got some defence up, cast walls etc..

Target selection may have a role sometimes in mixed encounters. If you are fighting a mixture of fiends or undead and other targets now the paladin can pick out his preferred targets anywhere on the field.