Building an EK

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

So I've been thinking about building an Eldritch Knight, and man, there is a surprising amount of choices involved. I'm actually a bit impressed at how flexible the basic fighter chassis is.
First big choice is DEX vs STR. Just for personal preference I'm going STR, but I'd love to hear about people's experiences with DEX EKs. Dex has a lot of great advantages. Better initiative, better saves, it's highly effective at range and still solid in melee.
But I like the classic metal-clad beefy fighter, so I'm going that way.

So what's the specialty? Most fighters end up choosing a preferred mode of attack. For STR, often this comes down to "Shield, or two-handed?". Do you want those big hits and/or reach, or do you want that extra AC? Then there's the feats that feed off of this. Can't do shield master without a shield. Can't -5/+10 without a heavy weapon. Can't get those sweet reaction attacks without a polearm. Oh Sophie, just make a decision already.
Usually if I get stuck like this, I start trying to optimize based on the party rather than the individual character.

Then there's the race choice. EK is a bit different from other fighters. Some choices that normally would be ignored for a fighter become more appealing. Choice which feed the magic side of an EK are interesting to think about.

There's the solid fightery choices of Mountain Dwarf, V. Human, Half-Orc, Goliath, and Earth Genasi. They all feed into the primary stats, and give varying bonuses.
Or you can try and enhance your magic with Duergar or Fire Genasi. Duergar would nearly be the perfect race for an EK if it weren't for Sunlight Sensitivity. And Fire Genasi have great racial traits, but only getting to start with a +2 mod in your primary stat is awkward to say the least.

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention, the other big choice when building an EK: Am I upping INT, or not? This has a big effect on spell choice as well as the number of feats you can take.

[Sir cryosin]

Ok so you want a magic knight imagine the character. Let's start with race don't worry about any bonuses just picture this character in your head.
Next play out a couple of fight scenes in your head. Pick whichever one you got excited buy watching.
Now when you were watching him/ her fighting what where they doing with spells. Was her/him using them offensively or defensively. After all that it should make your choicest easyer.

[Ewhit]

I agree what do you want your ek to look like if you don't worry about min max

Dragonborn ek with str bonus is your basic upfront he looks awsome you can make him look any color and get a breath weapon for added flavor

Orc as above but less flavor

I have a black dragon looking dragonborn ek he fights with long sword shield with protection fight style to protect others near giving disadvantaged to enemy attack. He also if looks like he will get hit vrs his 20 ac he pops up shield spell for 25 ac he spits acid either In fight or on bodies and eats them to the horror of his group but he says he's eating their warrior spirit to honor them in the fight with an evil grin CN alignment

If you use dex base sword same as above with shield spell if you go with archery i don't think I would go shield spell unless you can't find other spells to help group from range

Str can give you Any weapon look one handed with shield two handed weapon

You could go elf gnome halfling etc for dex base I'm not familiar with other race
If you go dex you can go range or melee but stuck with rapier

As for int it's based on what spells you pick. Your basically picking Abj spells so shield gives +5 ac int not needed etc
You can eventually get few whatever spells so if you want to cast fireball or something int is needed but if you ant misty step to port away to help someone etc it's not int based
Just remember this big key point.

You won't get lvl 3 spells until 13th lvl so just look at lvl 1,2 for adding flavor to your melee. And getting warcaster feat

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Question: Is Warcaster necessary if fighting with a two-handed weapon? Does it interfere with War Magic if I don't have the feat?

If I had to choose right now, I think I would go with a Fire Genasi (CON-based attack spells? Yes please). Stats: 15, 10, 17, 14, 10, 8 to start. Which becomes 16, 10, 18, 14, 10, 8 at level 4.
Still not sure what I'd specialize in. I wouldn't have to decide feats for awhile, but I still need a fighting style. I could just take Defense and leave off that decision. Could go into a Polearm-Sentinel Build. Or I'd might to do a Warcaster-Shieldmaster build.
Warcaster is rather appealing if I use the SCAG cantrips, but I'm already using EE material, so who knows if that would fly with the (theoretical) DM.

[Ewhit]

I read it does not interfere You take one hand off of weapon and cast then grab sword again.

But I always thought this

If it's verbal somatic and material how can you somatic with one hand and material the other or focus item. if you have sword shield or two swords They should make your weapon a focus for ek

[Sir cryosin]

Does your DM limite the books you can use. If not then green flame blade is a great cantrip for your fire genasi EK. The casting a spell with a two hand weapon is depending on your DM. I think some people like my Dm allows it because you can just hold the weapon in one hand and use your other hand for the spell. But check with your DM on that.

[Sir cryosin]

I read it does not interfere You take one hand off of weapon and cast then grab sword again.

But I always thought this

If it's verbal somatic and material how can you somatic with one hand and material the other or focus item. if you have sword shield or two swords They should make your weapon a focus for ek

I all ways saw the bounded weapon as your arcane focus. But that's just I how I think it should be. You are making a magical connection with it.

[DanyBallon]

About using two-handed weapon and spell casting, talk with your DM first, some will let you get one hand off to cast, but won't let you put you hand back on to use with a bonus action or a reaction. Versatile weapon come handy if this is the case. A +2 or +3 Int mod, is nice if you plan of using fire bolt or ray of frost as you cantrip (GFB benefit from higher Int mod as well).

As for race, High elf, gives you a boost to your Dex, it's nice even for a Str build, and bonus to Int. One more cantrip add to your limited arsenal.

[mealar]

i was making mine with the idea of gerralt from witcher so def not optimised but his general base was actually medium armour with the feat that gives and extra dex to the ac and then used a long sword so my DM would be happy with casting then switching to 2H,

idea came out was lowish int so most of my spells were defensive stuff like blur/misty step and a nice balance of dex/str for me to play around with.

so you can start with 18 AC (i took the armour style) without a shield and thats without the best armour

[Ewhit]

I disagree. It's fine if you want an elf cosmetic and go stR con or going Dex base ek with no armor or armor that gives +2 from Dex Max. if you want plate mail. Dex is waste stat. A strength ek is better suited for stR con not Dex and basic initiative. if you want a fast stR con ek fighter etc then get alertness for +5 initiative.

[Ewhit]

So im guessing med armor w/Max Dex bonus +2. Armor 15 or 16 plus Dex 14 +2 and initiative. ac 17 or 18 and Fighting style defense +1 ac 18 or 19 or greater fight style when using 2 hands with long sword

[Sir cryosin]

i was making mine with the idea of gerralt from witcher so def not optimised but his general base was actually medium armour with the feat that gives and extra dex to the ac and then used a long sword so my DM would be happy with casting then switching to 2H,

idea came out was lowish int so most of my spells were defensive stuff like blur/misty step and a nice balance of dex/str for me to play around with.

so you can start with 18 AC (i took the armour style) without a shield and thats without the best armour

Did you take the dueling fighting style for the +2 to damage or defensive fighting style

[Ewhit]

He wants to use long sword two handed so i think defense or two handed re roll 1-2

[CantigThimble]

I don't really like the polearm master feat on EKs as much because it competes pretty heavily with GFB/BB from levels 7-10. I'd rather go with a greatsword if you're going with str since it saves you the warcaster feat tax. Bind a handaxe or javelin as your second weapon in case you want to do some throwing. Also, as far as I can tell nothing stops you from swinging with a greatsword, bonus action summoning a handaxe and then using your other attack to throw it. The greatsword only needs two hands when you're actively making an attack roll with it.

Personally I really like the idea of a Dex eldritch knight with mage armor. No matter where he or what he is doing he can be 100% ready to fight in 6 seconds flat with 18 AC and his rapier. (the rest of the time I'd carry a shield though.

[Corran]

So I've been thinking about building an Eldritch Knight, and man, there is a surprising amount of choices involved. I'm actually a bit impressed at how flexible the basic fighter chassis is.
I just dont see it. One or two initial choices and everything is railroaded from an optimization point of view.
For example, first choice is to select fighting style. That defines almost everything.

You want a bow? Dex, and you have spare points to go for a good int score (>=16). Though be wise of how you use spells during combat, do it only if the situation favours it, most of the time you will want to stick to your attack action. Archer EKs are the best EKs, no one will dispute that.

You want S&B? Again, dex is the better choice for you, so is relying on weapon cantips and no actual attacks from taking the attack action. The only exception to this is if you have a group that would benefit from you having shield master, then you go str S&B, and you still use weapon cantrips. (Edit: Actually no, you cannot use the shove with weapon cantrips, so that ties you to your inferior to cantrips onehanded weapon attack action. Shield master does not work ideally for EKs, the group must really profit from it for you to consider investing on it). Aiming for a mediocre-decent (12-16) intelligence is not out of the question, since the opportunity cost (of your ''at-will damage'') will not be that huge.

Last but not least, you want a big two-hander? Dump int (8-12, dump was perhaps an exhaggeration). No spellcasting, you always take the attack action, aim for spells that dont rely on int, such as haste, blur, shield, stuff like that. Perhaps choose a couple of int-related spells (such as hold person), that you will use with your mediocre int (10-12) and with eldritch strike feature very situationaly when it makes sense to take that risk and is perhaps worth the try. So, for situational uses.

Leave the polearm to the paladin? You dont have one and you need to tank? By tank I mean someone who can exert some battlefield control. Mmmm, polearm master and sentinel could do the trick. Or polearm master and warcaster (BB) for some softer stickiness. Or polearm master and spell sniper and warcaster (and perhaps mobile) with BB could do it for you for extremelly damaging reactions (vhuman EK has the feats to do it soon). But generally polearms tend to work better for paladins.

TWF is out of the question, for obvous reasons to everyone reading this, I hope.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I just dont see it. One or two initial choices and everything is railroaded from an optimization point of view. ...if you're optimizing with a focus on a single aspect of your character, which happens when you build with a specific end-result in mind. But there's many axes to optimize across, and any improvement along one means a relative lack in another. There isn't a single answer, but it's a cascading series of trade-offs. Which is interesting to me. But if you have a specific goal, then yes, at each build decision point you just pick the choice which enhances your specific goal. But I don't see how that's different from any other class.

[Saggo]

About using two-handed weapon and spell casting, talk with your DM first, some will let you get one hand off to cast, but won't let you put you hand back on to use with a bonus action or a reaction.

While the book doesn't strictly say changing grips is or isn't an object interaction, a ruling like this has some unfortunate implications such as almost completely neutering Eldritch Knight's War Magic features.

[DanyBallon]

While the book doesn't strictly say changing grips is or isn't an object interaction, a ruling like this has some unfortunate implications such as almost completely neutering Eldritch Knight's War Magic features.

We play this way and I don't see any problem. It favor using a versatile weapon, so you still can swing your weapon one-handed, even if you cast a spell. Yes I deal a bit less damage, but I'm fine with it. GFB help closing the gap with a greatsword damage wise. And when I want to use my extra attacks I still can use my longsword two-handed.

[Saggo]

We play this way and I don't see any problem. It favor using a versatile weapon, so you still can swing your weapon one-handed, even if you cast a spell. Yes I deal a bit less damage, but I'm fine with it. GFB help closing the gap with a greatsword damage wise. And when I want to use my extra attacks I still can use my longsword two-handed.

Well this is 5e, you don't need an optimal build or optimal DPR to make a character concept work, I think can we all agree. And it is, of course, every table's prerogative to add houserules.

It's still adding clauses to the rules as an intentional nerf, and in practice only hurts Eldritch Knight (maybe a gish multiclass using Action Surge). If something is taken away from the game, then you should ask what value was added in return. Balance is dubious here, since problematic builds like GWM Frenzy Barbarians or Battlemasters and PAM Smiting Paladins still exist and will continue to choose two-handed weapons. You also get questions like what exactly are you allowed to do with your hands in a single turn, if Somatic is really that complicated why can Sorcerer Quicken spells, or what about reaction spells. Hence unfortunate implications. Feel free to do it though.

I also don't think you should nerf a game solely for flavor, but that's just personal opinion.

[DanyBallon]

Well this is 5e, you don't need an optimal build or optimal DPR to make a character concept work, I think can we all agree. And it is, of course, every table's prerogative to add houserules.

It's still adding clauses to the rules as an intentional nerf, and in practice only hurts Eldritch Knight (maybe a gish multiclass using Action Surge). If something is taken away from the game, then you should ask what value was added in return. Balance is dubious here, since problematic builds like GWM Frenzy Barbarians or Battlemasters and PAM Smiting Paladins still exist and will continue to choose two-handed weapons. You also get questions like what exactly are you allowed to do with your hands in a single turn, if Somatic is really that complicated why can Sorcerer Quicken spells, or what about reaction spells. Hence unfortunate implications. Feel free to do it though.

I also don't think you should nerf a game solely for flavor, but that's just personal opinion.

It's not that we are nerfing the game, it's just how our table read the intent behind requiring a free hand to cast a spell and to us, it just don't make sense to swing a sword with two hands and still have a free hand to cast a spell whitin the 6 second that a round last.

I didn't say that every table should play this way, I only warned te OP that some DM may be on the more restrective side with the free hand requirement, and that in such case, a versatile weapon, come in handy.

[Saggo]

It's not that we are nerfing the game, it's just how our table read the intent behind requiring a free hand to cast a spell and to us, it just don't make sense to swing a sword with two hands and still have a free hand to cast a spell whitin the 6 second that a round last.
To be fair, 5e allows for a lot of unrealistic things to occur in 6 seconds.

I'd argue Errata supports that that wasn't the intent, but intent or not, I still think you should ask what value is added by enforcing it. I understand it encourages the use of versatility, but that's through removing options. Versatility builds always remained an option.


I didn't say that every table should play this way, I only warned te OP that some DM may be on the more restrective side with the free hand requirement, and that in such case, a versatile weapon, come in handy.
So we're on the same page, I wasn't trying to imply you said the opposite.

[CaptAl]

I've been considering a DEX S&B Forest Gnome (Deep Gnomes do it better, I just like Forest Gnome flavor more) EK build. Take Sentinel and Warcaster at 4th and 6th level. Then spend the rest on upping DEX and CON. With GFB AoO, setting enemy movement to 0, and advantage on all Wis/Int/Cha saves vs magic he'll be a tiny tank-o-matic. Biggest weakness is, relatively, crappy AC, but a three level dip into Wizard/Abjurer goes a long way toward fixing that with bonus HP and the Blur spell.