Tempest Cleric Switching Out Insect Plague Domain Spell

[Renvir]

Hi All,

I'm moving out of the GM's chair and decided to try out the Tempest Cleric. I'm second level and am enjoying it so far but I found it strange that one of the domain spells I'll get in the future is Insect Plague. Thematically, it makes a lot of sense for the Nature Clerics but I don't get why it was added for Tempest Clerics. I was thinking about what spell I would replace it with (5th level spells only to match Insect Plague) and came up with Maelstrom, Control Winds, and Conjure Elemental.

Maelstrom: Shorter duration and range but both are still good. Both are saving throw spells but Maelstrom is STR instead of CON. Damage is roughly equivalent (6d6 vs. 4d10) but Maelstrom doesn't get stronger at higher levels. Both create difficult terrain but Maelstrom is larger and has added pull effect towards the center. Overall a similar spell to Insect Plague when comparing effect and use.

Control Winds: Much longer duration and same range. No material component. Really messes with ranged attacks but no direct damage. Hits a much wider area (100 foot cube vs. 20 foot radius). Doesn't get stronger with level. Overall it seems appropriate for a Tempest Cleric but fills a very different role than Insect Plague.

Conjure Elemental: First, I would make it a rule that the spell can only conjure Air Elementals and maybe Water Elementals. Much longer duration and shorter range. Comparing damage and effect is a bit tough due to the intricacies of combat. I personally think the elemental adds a bit more survivability but maybe not as much damage. I would actually have to use both a few times to find out. Both spells get stronger with level. Overall a very different type of spell than Insect Plague, yet the idea of flying into battle with my buddy Stormy McCloud is hard to resist.

I'd love to hear thoughts on other spells that could be used, why Insect Plague should be kept, or which of the above spell you think works best. I'm not super interested in min/maxing combat output but I didn't gimp my Wisdom for roleplaying reasons either. :smallsmile:

Thanks

[Zalabim]

Well in the first case, Maelstrom isn't in the PHB, so it woudn't be a Tempest Domain spell. In fact, there's no Cleric list spells in the EEPC at all.

In the second case, the Tempest domain isn't all about wind, lightning and rain. It's about natural disasters. This is the wrath of god domain. In addition to hurricanes, tornadoes, tidal waves, and sudden lightning storms, it includes earthquakes, volcanoes, and apparently plagues of locusts. This is the cleric who preaches so that people either do not anger the gods, or offer sacrifices to appease them.

Acknowledging that, Control Winds might still be more appropriate, as the domain otherwise has a good trend of utility spell/combat spell at the other levels and already has a good mix of spells for both concentration and not. Maybe they were just past their limit for spells from other lists.

[Renvir]

Well in the first case, Maelstrom isn't in the PHB, so it woudn't be a Tempest Domain spell. In fact, there's no Cleric list spells in the EEPC at all.

In the second case, the Tempest domain isn't all about wind, lightning and rain. It's about natural disasters. This is the wrath of god domain. In addition to hurricanes, tornadoes, tidal waves, and sudden lightning storms, it includes earthquakes, volcanoes, and apparently plagues of locusts. This is the cleric who preaches so that people either do not anger the gods, or offer sacrifices to appease them.

Ah, I was looking at a list of all level 5 spells and didn't think about what spells came out with the EEPC. So that explains why Maelstrom wouldn't have been included in the Tempest domain spell list.

Everything else about the domain screams wind, lightning, and rain. Even the PHB's description of the Tempest Domain leans heavily in that direction. But I think you're right that it can encompass a lot more than that and Insect Plague would fight right in.

Still, I'll talk with my GM and see if I can switch it out for Control Winds. Thematically, it works just as well and I don't think anyone could claim I'm making the class more powerful. It seems like a lateral move at best.

[Renvir]

In fact, there's no Cleric list spells in the EEPC at all.

I can only think of a couple of reasons why this would be. 1) WotC plan on adding more to the Cleric spell list but didn't think the EEPC was a good time for that. 2) Excepting Life Clerics, since they are apparently the most Cleric-y of Clerics, the domains let Clerics borrow a lot from other spell lists. I wonder if they will be allowed to borrow more in the future to make up for fewer class spells.

[lebefrei]

Tempest literally means a violent storm. The first paragraph of fluff might mention that gods of earthquakes and some fire and strength gods also fall under this domain, but that is because they also have portfolios of nature, destruction, war, and such.

Every other spell on the Tempest spell list matches to storms. Yes, if I were your DM I'd let you switch out Control Winds with no problem.

I'd actually probably let you take Maelstrom. It has a larger radius than Insect Plague, but otherwise does no damage on a successful save, unlike Insect Plague. Slightly lower average damage, 1/10th duration, half range, doesn't scale with level, damage is only on turn start instead of also when spell is cast... The only benefit is the radius and possible control of the pull. It is also much more thematically appropriate. Definitely ask your DM.

[djreynolds]

So insect plague does damage on a failed save, and you want to give that up? You can always prepare maelstrom, or conjure wind?

[Renvir]

Maelstrom and Control Winds are not Cleric spells so I couldn't prepare them without multi-classing first. Insect Plague is a Cleric spell so I wouldn't be getting rid of it entirely, just removing it from the list of always prepared spells.

[Heather]

I find myself in exactly the same situation. My tempest cleric is Dragonborn (bronze) so she's all about the lightning. Insect Plague just doesn't fit her idiom. I also came up with the same 3 spells as the OP as possible 5th level options. But there's another option.

Storm Sphere is the perfect tempest cleric domain spell - the only problem is that it's only 4th level. I wasn't quite sure what to do to it to beef it up to 5th level status. It does have casting at higher levels, which adds 1d6 to each of the effects (the initial AOE bludgeoning and the single-target bonus action lightning). So maybe just starting it out with 3d6 and 5d6 might be enough to label it 5th level. But that seems like it's not quite up to the same standard as other 5th level spells. Its duration is C up to 1 minute, rather than the 10 minutes of IP, so maybe I could extend its duration as well.

Does anyone know how spell levels are determined? If there's some sort of rough formula to use to rate a spell's level, I could upscale Storm Sphere accordingly before presenting it to my GM as an option.

[Arcangel4774]

This wasn't so much a straight switch but my dm ruled that he'd allow me to take the cantrips lightning lure and booming blade (they did use cantrip slots) at the cost of one of the spells. I gave up insect plague as I agree that it wasn't as thematic, especially to the God I chose. I didn't regret it for a minute; Ripping a guy off of horse back was some of the most rewarding actions I've taken.

[Arkhios]

I find myself in exactly the same situation. My tempest cleric is Dragonborn (bronze) so she's all about the lightning. Insect Plague just doesn't fit her idiom. I also came up with the same 3 spells as the OP as possible 5th level options. But there's another option.

Storm Sphere is the perfect tempest cleric domain spell - the only problem is that it's only 4th level. I wasn't quite sure what to do to it to beef it up to 5th level status. It does have casting at higher levels, which adds 1d6 to each of the effects (the initial AOE bludgeoning and the single-target bonus action lightning). So maybe just starting it out with 3d6 and 5d6 might be enough to label it 5th level. But that seems like it's not quite up to the same standard as other 5th level spells. Its duration is C up to 1 minute, rather than the 10 minutes of IP, so maybe I could extend its duration as well.

Does anyone know how spell levels are determined? If there's some sort of rough formula to use to rate a spell's level, I could upscale Storm Sphere accordingly before presenting it to my GM as an option.

There are rules for making new spells in DMG, can't remember the page but I'll check it out and let you know. pg. 283.

Those rules could fairly easily be used to reverse engineer the math behind each spell, and turn up the heat should you want that.

There's one slightly odd thing I noticed about it: it says 8d6 damage (halved with a save) for multiple targets is appropriate for a 5th level spell, yet Fireball and Lightning Bolt start at 8d6 and are 3rd level spells...
Go figure.

Either there's a mistake, or it's the "right hand doesn't know what left hand is doing" -situation all over again. I don't know if there's an errata or anything addressing this.

[SharkForce]

There's one slightly odd thing I noticed about it: it says 8d6 damage (halved with a save) for multiple targets is appropriate for a 5th level spell, yet Fireball and Lightning Bolt start at 8d6 and are 3rd level spells...
Go figure.

Either there's a mistake, or it's the "right hand doesn't know what left hand is doing" -situation all over again. I don't know if there's an errata or anything addressing this.

fireball and lightning bolt are both considered iconic, so they apparently decided to make them more powerful than everything else. not sure that's really a solid reason, but it's apparently the reason.

[Heather]

There are rules for making new spells in DMG, can't remember the page but I'll check it out and let you know. pg. 283.

Those rules could fairly easily be used to reverse engineer the math behind each spell, and turn up the heat should you want that.


Thanks. Looking at those rules, I guess 3d6 as AOE followed by the potential for several single-target 5d6 strikes on subsequent turns seems about right for a 5th level spell. I'll run it by my GM and see if he's amenable.

[Heather]

I love my GM. :)

He looked over my modifications (all I did was change the range to 300 feet to match Insect Plague, and upped the damage dice to 3d6 and 5d6), and he said it looked good. Then he said that actually, the damage should probably be d8's. So now it's 3d8 and 5d8. I can't wait to use this. My cleric is all about the storms. :) We renamed it to Raging Tempest, so as not to confuse it with the RAW version of Storm Sphere.