Tristalt, level 37 character help?

[SangoProduction]

um.....I am completely overwhelmed. I mean, I have a hard time coming up with characters (and particularly gear) of level 10. Now I need to make a level 37 god-slaying, world-hopping badass. Is anyone at all experienced in the epic handbook?
D&D 3.5

Um...character ideas?
1) Totemist....and something else as well, I guess. I am not sure what fits with totemist. I think psionics work at the levels we are working on...or do psionics not get bonus power points past 20? That'd be kinda disappointing. Maybe also throw in a regular sorcerer for blasting work, and getting spells that psions can't?
The idea being he was naturally born with his powers, and only increased as he aged. Maybe as an elf of some kind? Human would obviously be better, but still.

2) Perhaps a meatshield. Take all the initiator classes? Or take one of them out for Cleric or Druid or something? Maybe going in to master of many forms? He has a complete devotion to his art. "To kill is easy. To disable is hard, and I have done it."

3) A pure psionics character. Psions have more than enough points to use blast as many points as they want, but having 3x that would be rather insane.
This is more of a mechanically-focused idea. I don't have a clue for it's personality.

(More ideas might be added if I can think of any more.

EDIT:

OK. Got some new information:


level 36
feats every level
classes and spells limited to dndtools.pw
7.9 mil starting gold
42 point buy
must make epic spells in game not before

Apparently, it's level 36, despite the campaign being called 37, lol. Small difference, but dang feats at every level... Don't get me wrong, I like the homebrew of getting 1 every odd level, but woah. I'm actually kinda concerned about what we're going to be facing if we're getting loaded up with all this.
Epic casting is confirmed, but only once the game starts.
And only 1 prestige class at once.

Also, is there a way to just like....have spells ignore spell resistance, outside of just completely overwhelming it, or choosing spells that don't have sr?

Also, Automatic Quicken Spell, does that apply before or after metamagic adjusts the spell level? I mean, I've got 16 epic feats, so may as well, right?

[AvatarVecna]

Step 1: figure out what char-op level the game is at (things like "is epic spellcasting allowed").
Step 2: get a solid character concept in mind, RP wise or mechanical.

Both of these will make it a lot easier to get good help building in epic.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This is just a suggestion. As AvatarVecna mentions, it helps to have a concept. So here's a straightforward pile-on-the-overpowered-prestige-classes build, built around INT dependance.

Warblade/Master of Nine/Jade Phoenix Mage//Wizard 5/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper/Archmage/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil//Factotum/Cleric 1/Swordsage 1/X to Y dips.

Cleric and Swordsage for prereqs, dips for stat boosts (X = INT), the other classes up to max level. Dweomerkeeper can advance some cleric casting, when JPM is advancing wizard. This is also assuming you can double PrC. If you can't, well, there's plenty that you can drop, and still be really strong. You can also replace some of the levels with, say, a spellhoarding loredrake tome dragon.

[SangoProduction]

Step 1: figure out what char-op level the game is at (things like "is epic spellcasting allowed").
Step 2: get a solid character concept in mind, RP wise or mechanical.

Both of these will make it a lot easier to get good help building in epic.

OK. I asked him about the op-level.

I'm kinda asking for some sort of idea to work on, although having someone flesh out one of the ideas I presented would be just as useful.

[AmberVael]

um.....I am completely overwhelmed.

You think? Its level 37 tristalt. The system's back broke about 20 levels and two progressions ago. You're playing with a zombie at this point, so you'd better have good necromancy.


A few bits of advice:

Absolutely keep in touch with your GM and the other players and match their power level. Again, the system is a shambling zombie at this point, and you can't count on it providing any form of balance. Everything you've heard about tiers and optimization and interparty balance goes quadruple at this level (and tristalt).

The epic incarnum progression is really kind of terrible, so I don't recommend high level meldshapers in epic. Plus, the higher level you as a meldshaper, the harder time you'll have with conflicting magic items and melds. Dips or splashes can be good though, because the amount you can invest in a soulmeld is dependent on character level rather than class level (though you'll need a good source of essentia).

If you want to use psionics, you either need to find an alternative source of power points (because yeah, by RAW it doesn't scale and you kinda need it to scale for a lot of reasons), or get a houserule that lets it keep progressing at least a little bit. If you can't do that, a spellcaster will probably be a much simpler choice.

Think of a character concept. Especially one that seems crazy ambitious. And then build to that. Like you said, god-slaying world hopping badass. Own it. Don't play random adventurer #213. If its truly epic enough, you'll be able to find a good build for it. And given how many levels you have? You can basically afford to throw away a full progression on something that is purely fluff, even if you want high optimization. A character who intends to establish herself as a planar god-queen? A philosopher who seeks the ultimate truth of reality through obtaining omniscience? A wizard who experiments with forging new planes and worlds? Go for it. You can do that.

[Campbellk8105]

Like the OP said, multiple prestige classes allowed?

And really tristalt?

Your options are pretty limitless already, so providing more depth to a concept character would be helpful.

[SangoProduction]

This is just a suggestion. As AvatarVecna mentions, it helps to have a concept. So here's a straightforward pile-on-the-overpowered-prestige-classes build, built around INT dependance.

Warblade/Master of Nine/Jade Phoenix Mage//Wizard 5/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper/Archmage/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil//Factotum/Cleric 1/Swordsage 1/X to Y dips.

Cleric and Swordsage for prereqs, dips for stat boosts (X = INT), the other classes up to max level. Dweomerkeeper can advance some cleric casting, when JPM is advancing wizard. This is also assuming you can double PrC. If you can't, well, there's plenty that you can drop, and still be really strong. You can also replace some of the levels with, say, a spellhoarding loredrake tome dragon.

cool thanks.
so, 1 side as: Warblade/Master of Nine/Jade Phoenix Mage
another as: Wizard 5/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper/Archmage/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
And the last as: Factotum/Cleric 1/Swordsage 1/X to Y dips.

[ben-zayb]

Like the OP said, multiple prestige classes allowed?

And really tristalt?

Your options are pretty limitless already, so providing more depth to a concept character would be helpful.

This. It's probably better if you give us a particular type of character that you want to play, and we will try to make it work on tristalt. (That shouldn't be too hard at level 37 tristalt, should it?) Also figure out the power level of your game, so yours will be made to match it.

[SangoProduction]

Like the OP said, multiple prestige classes allowed?

And really tristalt?

Your options are pretty limitless already, so providing more depth to a concept character would be helpful.

I just asked. I might get a response back in a couple days. Assume whichever you want.


You think? Its level 37 tristalt. The system's back broke about 20 levels and two progressions ago. You're playing with a zombie at this point, so you'd better have good necromancy.

A few bits of advice:

Absolutely keep in touch with your GM and the other players and match their power level. Again, the system is a shambling zombie at this point, and you can't count on it providing any form of balance. Everything you've heard about tiers and optimization and interparty balance goes quadruple at this level (and tristalt).

The epic incarnum progression is really kind of terrible, so I don't recommend high level meldshapers in epic. Plus, the higher level you as a meldshaper, the harder time you'll have with conflicting magic items and melds. Dips or splashes can be good though, because the amount you can invest in a soulmeld is dependent on character level rather than class level (though you'll need a good source of essentia).

If you want to use psionics, you either need to find an alternative source of power points (because yeah, by RAW it doesn't scale and you kinda need it to scale for a lot of reasons), or get a houserule that lets it keep progressing at least a little bit. If you can't do that, a spellcaster will probably be a much simpler choice.

Think of a character concept. Especially one that seems crazy ambitious. And then build to that. Like you said, god-slaying world hopping badass. Own it. Don't play random adventurer #213. If its truly epic enough, you'll be able to find a good build for it. And given how many levels you have? You can basically afford to throw away a full progression on something that is purely fluff, even if you want high optimization. A character who intends to establish herself as a planar god-queen? A philosopher who seeks the ultimate truth of reality through obtaining omniscience? A wizard who experiments with forging new planes and worlds? Go for it. You can do that.

lol. True. Thanks for that bit on psionics. A couple nice ideas.

[Necromancy]

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa

slow it down crazies!

Popping out a level 37 from scratch is kind of a nightmare, as the character can be so complex you won't even be able to remember half of it's abilities. I would advise against any sort of optimizing build as jumping through 15 prestige classes is just going to make your character sheet look like a crossword puzzle. At level 37 the game has broken down so much that you don't really even need to make rolls anymore in combat. I suspect you'll do yourself a favor if you have a lot of skill points to toss around though.

As a caster I'd just go basic wizard with a couple prestige classes on the far end of it like ASoC

also a psion monk would go over well, decent skill points, hard to kill, etc

keep it simple and you'll be happy enough

[Campbellk8105]

Goliath Whirling Frenzy barbarian/fighter/Frenzied berserker/war hulk/hulking hurler

And frankly whatever else you wanna add on there, cause why not?

I'm always for super simple.

Or straight wizard/factotum/---
Because your enemies don't deserve SR anyways

[MisterKaws]

On the long lived human: This is basically Elan, and it fits REALLY well with Psionics.

I think a good one would be Psion 35/Swordsage 2//Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5/Incarnate 19//Warblade 20/Crusader 7/Master of Nine 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Cloistered Cleric 1

Psion gives some nice utility, even more adding that Cloistered Cleric dip. Duskblade goes well with Warblade, since you can Arcane Channel through a Time Stands Still, which is pretty nice; and you can also recharge maneuvers with power points as long as you get Psychic Renewal. Incarnate is better for this one, since it has more utility melds.

On the Initiator dips: You see, the nice thing about initiators, is that they get initiator level increases even if they don't get a class with a +initiator class feature, but only at half the total of non-initiator levels, and you also get to choose maneuvers based off your increased initiator levels. This means that Swordsage dip there gets to choose maneuvers as a 18-19 Swordsage right off the bat, and the crusader gets to choose it as a 11-17, which is enough, since it doesn't have that many useful maneuvers you couldn't get through the other two. Master of nine gives some more stuff to do; same for Bloodstorm Blade.

Unfortunately, you don't get increased power points, though you get extra feats for an epic Psion(optimized at the 35th level feat, since the next is at 38), and there's epic feats for increasing the number of points you get.

[SangoProduction]

How does LA affect tristalt?

[AvatarVecna]

How does LA affect tristalt?

That's usually up to the DM. I'm pretty sure the RAW of the matter is that HD and LA take up space the way class levels do (that is to say, if you have 16 LA from your "Bull****" template, it takes up 16 levels on one track). I'm also pretty sure that this is the kind of thing that tends to vary wildly depending on the DM and the power/char-op level of the game in question, because otherwise one of your options is playing a Necropolitan Hill Giant with class levels of Sorcerer 5/Favored Soul 5/Mystic Theurge 24/Hulking Hurler 3//Hill Giant HD 12/Hill Giant LA 4/Evolved Undead 21//Evolved Undead 37, which gives several benefits: natural armor is improved by 58 points, it has Fast Healing 174, it has a ridiculous number of SLAs per day, and it has a +116 to Str and Cha each on top of whatever benefits the base race normally gets...because stacking Evolved Undead on itself that many times gets absolutely ridiculous in epic X-stalt.

[Necromancy]

I tried to read that.... Was that in English?

[Kraken]

Wizard5/mindbender1/incantatrix10/archmage2/wyrm wizard2/incantatrix16/loremaster1//whatever37//whatever37
Feats:
1: Arcane disciple (luck)
....
21: Improved spell capactity
23: Improved spell capactity
24: Improved spell capactity
26: Improved spell capactity
27: Improved spell capactity
29: Improved spell capactity
30: Improved spell capactity
32: Improved spell capactity
33: Innate spell (whatever)
35: Innate spell (miracle, obtained from arcane disciple)
36: Innate spell (body outside body, obtained from wyrm wizard)
37: Epic spellcasting

You can cast miracle, body outside body, and a third spell of your choice at will. You can use body outside body to create clones of yourself which can also cast these things. The clones can further create copies of themselves. Too much? :smallbiggrin:

[SangoProduction]

OK. Got some new information:


level 36
feats every level
classes and spells limited to dndtools.pw
7.9 mil starting gold
42 point buy
must make epic spells in game not before

Apparently, it's level 36, despite the campaign being called 37, lol. Small difference, but dang feats at every level... Don't get me wrong, I like the homebrew of getting 1 every odd level, but woah. I'm actually kinda concerned about what we're going to be facing if we're getting loaded up with all this.
Epic casting is confirmed, but only once the game starts.
And only 1 prestige class at once.

Also, is there a way to just like....have spells ignore spell resistance, outside of just completely overwhelming it, or choosing spells that don't have sr?

Also, Automatic Quicken Spell, does that apply before or after metamagic adjusts the spell level? I mean, I've got 16 epic feats, so may as well, right?

[Campbellk8105]

Still tristalt?

11 levels into factotum I believe lets you spend 2 inspirations points to overcome SR and DR for a round

[SangoProduction]

Still tristalt?

11 levels into factotum I believe lets you spend 2 inspirations points to overcome SR and DR for a round

Cool. That'd work. Thanks. And yes, still tristalt.

One more thing: Does having any type of concealment qualify you for sneak attack?

Do you guys think it's possible to optimize a spell thief with tristalt? Perhaps if I stacked it with the natural attack totemist? If they survive the damage, they won't have spells. But if this is one of those uber op games, then I don't think Attacking would even do anything. Then again, at level 37....I don't think anything would do anything at the top end of the optimization spectrum, so perhaps it's not worth thinking too much about.

EDIT: Note: I kinda don't care too much for actually playing it, but I do wanna know if it's possible for you guys to do it.

[Campbellk8105]

It would depend on what is concealing you.

Total concealment does not grant you the ability to sneak attack. They have to be denied their dex, flat-footed or flanked. Concealment does not offer that.

However if concealed in a fog cloud for example, where they can't see you, - now flat-footed - you could sneak attack I believe.

[SangoProduction]

It would depend on what is concealing you.

Total concealment does not grant you the ability to sneak attack. They have to be denied their dex, flat-footed or flanked. Concealment does not offer that.

However if concealed in a fog cloud for example, where they can't see you, - now flat-footed - you could sneak attack I believe.

Ah. I thought I remembered people using some sort of ring of concealment to guarentee sneak attacks. I didn't know how it worked.

[AvatarVecna]

Ah. I thought I remembered people using some sort of ring of concealment to guarentee sneak attacks. I didn't know how it worked.

I think it's the Ring of Blinking people usually use for that.

[Campbellk8105]

Ah. I thought I remembered people using some sort of ring of concealment to guarentee sneak attacks. I didn't know how it worked.

You can use concealment to try and hide, thus qualifying for sneak attack if the hide check is successful.

[SangoProduction]

You can use concealment to try and hide, thus qualifying for sneak attack if the hide check is successful.

ah ok. I see now.

[MisterKaws]

You can use concealment to try and hide, thus qualifying for sneak attack if the hide check is successful.

Although at that level, you'll need Darkstalker even to hide from the most inoffensive-looking puppy.

[SangoProduction]

Although at that level, you'll need Darkstalker even to hide from the most inoffensive-looking puppy.

good point. Thanks for pointing it out. Infinite feats don't mean anything if you don't know what to spend them on.

[ben-zayb]

good point. Thanks for pointing it out. Infinite feats don't mean anything if you don't know what to spend them on.

Infinite feats? You could at least get enough Improved Spell Capacity to use Supernatural Transformation -> Innate Spell -> Miracle/Wish, for at-will XP-less Miracle/Wish. Also infinite Great <Ability Modifier>, Shape Soulmeld (everything), Open Chakra (everything), Permanent Emanation (everything that can), and Spell Stowaway (everything).

[Seppo87]

One of the best build with 3 base classes is definitely:

STP Erudite Psion
Warblade
Factotum

You can multiclass into a lot of intelligence based dips such as Monk with kung-fu genius/tashalatora, swashbuckler3, Iaijutsu Master and so on. Also feats, spells and items to add INT to pretty much everything.

This gives you the best HD, BaB, highest possible skill points (8+ maximized INT, all skills are class skills) all arcane and divine spells, psionics, maneuvers, completely broken action economy (cunning surge, psionic shenanigans, white raven tactics!) great AC, all good saves.
For more maneuvers you can dip Swordsage and Crusader and then go Master of 9

For a full-charisma build, you may go with Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Crusader.
Good dips include but are not limited to Paladin, Hexblade, Battle Dancer or Monk with Ascetic Mage, Iaijutsu Master (iaijutsu focus is cha-based) Zentharim Soldier Fighter, Barbarian (for intimidating rage shenanigans), Marshall.
Also, you can technically save levels by going the Sublime Chord route.
This would allow you to add Wilder levels or anything else you may like.

[Gandariel]

I'm given to understand the "base" level of this kind of games is:

- having ALL the spells and contingencies active on your person at all times.

-Your method of attack is multiple at will quickened Miracles/wishes.

-Plenty of ways to make many actions per turn.

-All the items money can buy (because you have at will infinite Su wishes)

-At least 21 spellcasting levels in divine, Arcane, Psionic, iniator, and whatever else yu can think of

-Immunity to everything.

-Easily way more powerful than gods (which makes me question why you'd spend an hour a day praying to them)

Your character will also take something like 10 hours to make, and the campaign will be still broken.

And God forbid you get a cohort

[Seppo87]

10 hours to make
More like 10 days

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A few points on epic-level play;


Keep the build simple and with good synergy:
The simpler a build is, the more resources it can focus on any one thing. The more synergy it has, the stronger it is. The simpler it is, the easier it is to bring that power into play. A good suggestion for a build is;
Sorceror 6/Incantatrix 25/Archmage 5//Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Descryer 15/Hierophant 5//cleric 3/classes with CHA-based defense.

Maneuvers are less effective:
You usually can use only one or two maneuvers a round and for many of them the effects don't scale. If you have them, pick maneuvers that are defensive, or multiply the power of another mechanic instead of having a fixed effect. Also, attack rolls scale more slowly than AC bonuses.

Feats are everything:
The more epic feats and bonus feats you got, the better off you are. At this level of power it is good to have;
Multispell 4x. The ability to use magic at least 6 times per round is a good idea.
Metamagic. You need MOAR of it. No exceptions.
Improved Metamagic 3x. Having most common metamagic effects cost only 1 level increase is a good idea.
Improved Spell Capacity 9x. Having 18th level spell slots in at least one class is a must.
Innate Spell 3x. Quickened Time Stop, Quickened Gate and Quickened Miracle are the best choices. Coupled with Multispell, you should be getting 18 rounds' worth of actions per turn, and thus able to cast 108 Miracles per turn without expending resources.
Supernatural Transformation 3x. For your newly-acquired innate spells cause you don't want them to be dispellable, counterable, or have material and XP components.
Epic Counterspell. The ability to automatically counter any spell, even Epic ones, by just expending a spell slot one level higher is a good defense against ambushes by casters.




The above build is both straightforward and extremely powerful. Things it can do without infinite loops or exploits;
1) 108 spells per turn.
2) Can counter epic spells.
3) At will miracle/timestop.
4) Can boost most rolls or caster level by at least +100, then heal the damage.
5) Can have buffs. All the buffs. All the time.
6) Can call any number of ridiculously powerful creatures.



The build should not take you more than 2-3 hours to make, and maybe an hour to learn how to play.

[DarkSoul]

Before you go all crazy with these builds you might want to check with the DM whether he's lifting the prohibition on taking multiple prestige classes at any given level, because as it stands the build above me is completely illegal. Rainbow Servant and Descryer levels can't be taken with Incantatrix 25, and the cleric progression is pretty much screwed past level 6, as well.

[martixy]

More like 10 days

Can confirm.

Also, where the heck do you find a campaign like that?

I myself am partial to lotsa templates + better-than-full initiator progression. So something like Warblade in parallel with Master of Nine/Eternal Blade/Jade Phoenix Mage.

+Ask if you could use this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95516-Epic-Martial-Adept-Progressions-and-Feats
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95435-9-Martial-Discipline-Epic-Feats

Also, all the expensive feat chains are now fair game.

Actually, just pick a theme. Doing builds like these is sort of a guilty pleasure of mine.

At these levels I'm not really a fan of aiming for the most power possible. I'd rather start with a pure concept, some idea that the system is normally ill-suited at supporting and fully realize it due to the breadth of options offered.

[SangoProduction]

I found it on roll 20.

[Anthrowhale]

My understanding from OPs followup is that the prestige class limitation is in effect. Hence, there are only 31 prestige class levels available (or maybe a few more with early entry). Given that, something like:

Wizard//Archivist//Warblade/Factotum/(other useful base class dips)

With prestige classes given by something like Spelldancer 1/Incantatrix 3/Hathran 5/Contemplative 1/Dweomer Keeper 10/Divine Oracle 2/Lore Master 1/Archmage 3/??5. This gives you:
(a) Supernatural Spell (Dweomerkeeper)
(b) Persistomancy (Spelldancer 1 + Incantatrix 3)
(c) Spontaneous casting of virtually every spell (Hathran 3 + Wizard spells + Archivist spells + Versatile Spellcaster)
(d) Spellcasting in your antimagic field via Initiate of Mystra (qualified by Hathran 3 advancing Archivist)
(e) Level 20 spells (Hathran 5)
(f) Reflex save for 0 (Divine Oracle 2)
(g) Various Archmage goodness.

[atemu1234]

That's usually up to the DM. I'm pretty sure the RAW of the matter is that HD and LA take up space the way class levels do (that is to say, if you have 16 LA from your "Bull****" template, it takes up 16 levels on one track). I'm also pretty sure that this is the kind of thing that tends to vary wildly depending on the DM and the power/char-op level of the game in question, because otherwise one of your options is playing a Necropolitan Hill Giant with class levels of Sorcerer 5/Favored Soul 5/Mystic Theurge 24/Hulking Hurler 3//Hill Giant HD 12/Hill Giant LA 4/Evolved Undead 21//Evolved Undead 37, which gives several benefits: natural armor is improved by 58 points, it has Fast Healing 174, it has a ridiculous number of SLAs per day, and it has a +116 to Str and Cha each on top of whatever benefits the base race normally gets...because stacking Evolved Undead on itself that many times gets absolutely ridiculous in epic X-stalt.

Please, it's level 37. It's not like that optimisation makes any difference at this point.

My recommendation is to Gestalt a Erudite, a Wizard, and a Cleric. Go incantatrix 10, for obvious reasons.

Or...
Wizard 7 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Incantatrix 10 / Anything 7

Gestalt with

Erudite 7 / Thrallherd 10 / Psion Uncarnate 10 / Any PrC 10

Tristalt with

Warblade 20 / Swordsage 17

This can do basically whatever you need.

[SangoProduction]

Please, it's level 37. It's not like that optimisation makes any difference at this point.

My recommendation is to Gestalt a Erudite, a Wizard, and a Cleric. Go incantatrix 10, for obvious reasons.

Or...
Wizard 7 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Incantatrix 10 / Anything 7

Gestalt with

Erudite 7 / Thrallherd 10 / Psion Uncarnate 10 / Any PrC 10

Tristalt with

Warblade 20 / Swordsage 17

This can do basically whatever you need.

Only one prc at one time. Also, with a feat at each level, what is the point of incantrix? The instant metamagic is nice, but that's just 2 uses per day for 9 levels.

[AvatarVecna]

Only one prc at one time. Also, with a feat at each level, what is the point of incantrix? The instant metamagic is nice, but that's just 2 uses per day for 9 levels.

...what's the point of Incantatrix? Point one, a limited number of times per day they can put metamagic on an ally's spell for free if they succeed on a Spellcraft check; point two, a limited number of times times per day they can add metamagic to an existing spell after it's been cast for free if they succeed on a Spellcraft check; point three, they get four free feats (even with a feat every level, there's always more useful feats (there's nearly 35000 feats in total), so having more feats is always good); point four, the capstone is the equivalent of the epic feat "Improved Metamagic" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic), except instead of getting it at lvl 27 at the earliest, you get it at lvl 15 at the earliest...and you don't have to spend a feat to get it.

[Anthrowhale]

Snatch Spell potentially deserves mention as well. When combined with caster level boosters it potentially allows you take over any controllable spell with a duration. I believe this even applies to epic spells and it can be used an unlimited number of times/day.

[Hecuba]

...what's the point of Incantatrix? Point one, a limited number of times per day they can put metamagic on an ally's spell for free if they succeed on a Spellcraft check; point two, a limited number of times times per day they can add metamagic to an existing spell after it's been cast for free if they succeed on a Spellcraft check; point three, they get four free feats (even with a feat every level, there's always more useful feats (there's nearly 35000 feats in total), so having more feats is always good); point four, the capstone is the equivalent of the epic feat "Improved Metamagic" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic), except instead of getting it at lvl 27 at the earliest, you get it at lvl 15 at the earliest...and you don't have to spend a feat to get it.

Those are all great reasons to take Incantatrix on a level 20-something character, and maybe even a level 20-something gestalt character. For a level 36 trisalt character, however, they amount to a slightly more optimal solution to a secondary problem.

At this level, the goal is not to optimize rocket great: it's too subvert it.

On that note: does anyone know of a way to act during another character's time stop or otherwise prevent it? All I can think of is the amf limitation, which is problematic.

[Anthrowhale]

On that note: does anyone know of a way to act during another character's time stop or otherwise prevent it? All I can think of is the amf limitation, which is problematic.

Epic Feat: Spell Stowaway is the standard answer. It's a little bit iffy because a caster can't actually cast Time Stop on you and it's imperfect in only having a 300' range and requiring line of effect.

[Hecuba]

Epic Feat: Spell Stowaway is the standard answer. It's a little bit iffy because a caster can't actually cast Time Stop on you and it's imperfect in only having a 300' range and requiring line of effect.

This. I knew there was something like that hiding around here. This is the kind of thing you need at this level of play.

Since any successful action should be enough to win, your enemy's and you have 2 generalized goals

Find specific ways to act even if you should be prevented from acting.
Find ways to prevent your opponents from acting while you defeat them.


Since Timestop is probably be best out of the box option for 2, you need to prioritize a way around it or 1.