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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Elegant Monk buff



Godskook
2016-03-18, 11:56 PM
Yes, I'm aware everyone has done Monk to -death-, but I'm curious as to just how broken this rule I came up with is:

Perfect Self (Ex): From level 1, a Monk's truest focus is inner discipline and perfection throughout his life. A Monk adds the sum of his ability bonuses to his ability scores as a class bonus. This bonus can not exceed his monk class levels for any reason. Whenever your int increases due to levels, you gain retroactive skill points for any monk levels.

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Reasonably sure it won't break Monk, except if having ability scores in the 30s breaks something I forgot about, but I'm really worried it'll break some other class to have access to additional ability score.

Gnorman
2016-03-19, 12:23 AM
I wouldn't take a level of Monk even if it did give me +1 to all ability scores. I think you'll be okay.

Zaydos
2016-03-19, 12:25 AM
It makes a 1 or 2 level dip into monk better (as it certainly gives a +2), but it tapers off as you take monk levels (I mean with elite array you'd cap out at +3, +4 at 8th, +5 at 16th), might do better to make it +1 + 1/3 monk levels. With higher point buy you'd get more with this, but you'd need really high point buy to get where it applied up through 10th level (all 16s) or high LA race (which comes into whether Racial Ability score modifiers count as unmodified). Still I like it as a base. I like it a lot.

Fizban
2016-03-19, 06:58 AM
Eh, what the monk lacks most is armor class and attack bonus. It's pretty roundabout way of doing it but you can get results. Kinda backwards though: if monk is one of the most MAD classes ever, their new special feature is. . . even more MAD. Point buys can get some fudge out of it by buying lots of low bonuses but with rolled stats (which some people still like for some reason) a bad roll still puts you in the hole.

nikkoli
2016-03-19, 12:43 PM
It's half the sum of all their stats not the average of their stats, so rollings ability to score higher across the board could make this bonus bigger. But one mod of +5 and 5 of +0 is the same as 5 mods of +1 and one of +0.
Point buy you could even your stats out all to 1 r or 15 easier than rolling and then net a +6 to all stats at level 6.
Unless I am reading all this wrong.

Zaydos
2016-03-19, 01:17 PM
It's half the sum of all their stats not the average of their stats, so rollings ability to score higher across the board could make this bonus bigger. But one mod of +5 and 5 of +0 is the same as 5 mods of +1 and one of +0.
Point buy you could even your stats out all to 1 r or 15 easier than rolling and then net a +6 to all stats at level 6.
Unless I am reading all this wrong.

That's also a 36 point buy to get all stats to 14, which is much higher than normal. With the more common 32 PB you only get 15/14/14/14/14/8 (+5 at 5th, +6 at 12th). With the also common 30 you get 14/14/14/14/14/8 which is +5 at 5th and +6 at 16th (probably going to let Int and a +1 slide to get better + to your Str, Dex, or Wis), with the common 28 PB you get 15/14/14/14/10/8 for +4 at 4th, +5 at 12th, +6 at 20th.

This is why my suggestion is to make it level based. It makes dipping monk less of a plus (+2 for 2 levels) which people already dip 2 levels of monk (though 1 is more common), while simultaneously making it easier on a single classed monk by not requiring higher point buys (high point buys benefit monks, but ones to make this effective long term are rare). The exact rate of growth would need to be determined, and it might end up best not to do a simplistic mathematical formula (i.e. +1 +1/3 levels which nets +7 at 18th), but that's about determining what + monks really need at what level. +1/2 monk level (either rounded up or down) would be weaker in E6 (+3 at 5th, where even the PHB's standard 25 PB gets you +3 at 3rd) but stronger late game (catches up to 32 PB at 9th, surpasses it for a level at 11th, and permanently at 13th, catches up to 36 PB at 11th and surpasses it at 13th, dips below higher point buy for a bit, but surpasses anything short of all 16s by 17th and +8). So some of it depends upon what level of monk you're trying to fix, and a more complicated fix could be something like +1/level for 4 levels then +1/2 levels for 8 levels, then +1 at 16th and 20th, for a total of +10 to all stats but accelerated at low levels).

Jormengand
2016-03-19, 05:59 PM
Honestly, you can just flat-out add their monk level to all their stats and monk still wouldn't be playable.

Godskook
2016-03-20, 12:14 AM
First, I don't know why I wrote "unmodified" in the original version of this. I never intended that... Ah well.

Second, 32 point-buy provides +10 base stats, which is enough to cap this class feature out until level 10. You can reliably have access to +stat equipment by level 6 or so, and can utilize hand-me-down equipment from others at level ~10 to keep yourself topped off when everyone else upgrades to +4s.

@Fizban, I specified bonus, not modifier, which means you can actually dump a stat and be stronger for it. At 25 point-buy, you can run 14/14/14/9/14/8, and have enough raw stats to max this ability until level 8. Note that you'd actually rather have a 16 and a 8 than have a 14 and a 12, due to the nuance of that fact(Also, 16/10 isn't significantly worse than 14/14, depending on which stats you're choosing). At 32 point-buy, 18/14/14/8/12/8 works until level 9, and since you get skill points as you level, you don't hurt as much from dumping Int.


Honestly, you can just flat-out add their monk level to all their stats and monk still wouldn't be playable.

As I understand it, Monk has 3 main problems compared to Fighters.

1.Medium BAB, which makes them bad at hitting things and bad at monkish things, like grappling, compared to most dudes.

2.MAD to a fault, and no clear plan on how to invest in attributes.

3.Bad HD, which makes them squishy for dealing with the inevitable melee they go into.

@1, this class feature gives them enough of a bonus to fully compensate for the change of BAB at most class levels, frequently with change to spare.

@2, this class feature reduces their MAD as a problem by rewarding efficient use of point-buy more than other classes do. Rolling for stats also benefits form this by making odd scores valuable. You can also afford to dump Int and Cha easier now, since the class feature gives you compensation stats for them, and you didn't really want high values in either anyway.

@3, more Con means more HP, and for every 2 Con, its effectively a HD increase unless you're consistently rolling above average(and that pesky max HD at level 1). At level 4, they effectively have a d12 HD, give or take. By Monk 20, that +20 Con means that they'll probably have the most HP in the party, prior to buffs.

If you could be specific as to -why- you think this won't fix Monk, I'd love to hear that, but what you've given me so far is no more useful than "I don't like it". Also, note that I'm aiming to only bump Monk up to around Barbarian level, more or less. Out of tier 5, but not really into tiers 3+(although if I hit tier 3, I'd be happy).

Zaydos
2016-03-20, 01:13 AM
First, I don't know why I wrote "unmodified" in the original version of this. I never intended that... Ah well.

Second, 32 point-buy provides +10 base stats, which is enough to cap this class feature out until level 10. You can reliably have access to +stat equipment by level 6 or so, and can utilize hand-me-down equipment from others at level ~10 to keep yourself topped off when everyone else upgrades to +4s.

Umm...


Yes, I'm aware everyone has done Monk to -death-, but I'm curious as to just how broken this rule I came up with is:

Perfect Self (Ex): From level 1, a Monk's truest focus is inner discipline and perfection throughout his life. A Monk adds half the sum of his ability bonuses to his ability scores as a class bonus. This bonus can not exceed his monk class levels for any reason. Whenever your int increases due to levels, you gain retroactive skill points for any monk levels.

-------------------

Reasonably sure it won't break Monk, except if having ability scores in the 30s breaks something I forgot about, but I'm really worried it'll break some other class to have access to additional ability score.

You might want to change the bolded sentence then, it indicates you'd only add half that bonus (i.e. +5).

Those two changes make it a lot different, in that it's exceptionally easy to get +20 (those hand me down +4s).

Godskook
2016-03-20, 09:12 AM
Umm...



You might want to change the bolded sentence then, it indicates you'd only add half that bonus (i.e. +5).

Those two changes make it a lot different, in that it's exceptionally easy to get +20 (those hand me down +4s).

Yeah, another one of those "how it works in my mind and how I wrote it down shouldn't be different, but oh god why?" things. Fixed.