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View Full Version : All the ways to increase reach, aside from size increases?



SangoProduction
2016-03-19, 03:51 AM
Yeah. Basically as the title says. Assume any prerequisite can be met.

Necroticplague
2016-03-19, 07:14 AM
Here you go, a whole guide that includes it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127732-3-X-Increasing-Size-Effective-Size-Unarmed-Damage-Reach).

Dromuthra
2016-03-19, 07:20 AM
Not included in that guide is the Long Arm graft from Fiend Folio page 211. You'll have to make will saves unless you're evil, but it's an extra 5' of reach for 5,000 gold.

SangoProduction
2016-03-19, 07:43 AM
Not included in that guide is the Long Arm graft from Fiend Folio page 211. You'll have to make will saves unless you're evil, but it's an extra 5' of reach for 5,000 gold.

That's useful.

Alex12
2016-03-19, 11:01 AM
If Pathfinder and DSP stuff is allowed:
Warders get scaling reach increases for the purposes of counters and AoO when using their recovery, and Zweihander Sentinel gets a 5-foot reach increase for counters and AoO if using non-reach weapons (Using a reach weapon also gets an increase, but it applies inward toward the PC)
Aegis has a Reach customization that just straight-up grants a reach increase. It's also got size-boosting and Powerful Build customizations.

Pale Sun
2016-03-19, 11:19 AM
Dont forget Rope Dart/Meteor Hammer from Dragon Magazine #319

Exotic weapons that triple your reach.

Necroticplague
2016-03-19, 11:28 AM
Dont forget Rope Dart/Meteor Hammer from Dragon Magazine #319

Exotic weapons that triple your reach.

Actually, it's an exotic weapon with 15 feet range. Nothing in it says that that 15 feet scales with size.

Pale Sun
2016-03-19, 12:15 PM
Actually, it's an exotic weapon with 15 feet range. Nothing in it says that that 15 feet scales with size.

Reach weapons say they grant 10' range. However they are ruled to double reach on creatures bigger than medium. By RAI there is no reason a weapon that triples reach on a medium creature wouldnt also triple it for creatures bigger than medium.

Necroticplague
2016-03-19, 12:44 PM
Reach weapons say they grant 10' range. However they are ruled to double reach on creatures bigger than medium. By RAI there is no reason a weapon that triples reach on a medium creature wouldnt also triple it for creatures bigger than medium.

That's because there's specific rule for how reach weapons interact with reach. The normal entries are bone-headedly assuming 5 foot reach. However, there exist rules for when the PC with a reach weapon isn't of that reach. However, there exists no such rules for these very long reach weapons (rope dart, meteor hammer, and whip) that say they triple reach if you don't have 5 foot of reach.
If we want to discuss RAI, then it's unlikely they considered a PC who had reach that isn't 5 feat using one of these weapons, so their really isn't much of an intent. Additionally, there's evidence for similar weapons (the whip) resorting to normal reach weapon rules when the creature has reach that isn't 5 foot. The balor has a whip, which lets a medium creature reach 15 feet. However, the Balor's reach with its whip is labeled as 20 feat, like a normal reach weapon, and not 30, like it would be if whips (with text mostly identical to that of Meteor Hammers in the relevant portions, and similar problems) tripled reach. so RAI of the closest written situation appears to say that it goes to normal "double reach" rules when you're reach isn't 5 feet.

Pale Sun
2016-03-19, 01:15 PM
That's because there's specific rule for how reach weapons interact with reach. The normal entries are bone-headedly assuming 5 foot reach. However, there exist rules for when the PC with a reach weapon isn't of that reach. However, there exists no such rules for these very long reach weapons (rope dart, meteor hammer, and whip) that say they triple reach if you don't have 5 foot of reach.
If we want to discuss RAI, then it's unlikely they considered a PC who had reach that isn't 5 feat using one of these weapons, so their really isn't much of an intent. Additionally, there's evidence for similar weapons (the whip) resorting to normal reach weapon rules when the creature has reach that isn't 5 foot. The balor has a whip, which lets a medium creature reach 15 feet. However, the Balor's reach with its whip is labeled as 20 feat, like a normal reach weapon, and not 30, like it would be if whips (with text mostly identical to that of Meteor Hammers in the relevant portions, and similar problems) tripled reach. so RAI of the closest written situation appears to say that it goes to normal "double reach" rules when you're reach isn't 5 feet.

I guess you have a point. One could argue that the whip works that way because despite being giving 15' reach is labeled as a "reach weapon", while the Rope Dart is not explicitly called a "reach weapon", with its entry just saying that it has a long reach and that it can be used against an adjacent foe unlike most weapons with reach (although a weapon with reach should be the same as a reach weapon, by RAW the Rope Dart isnt specifically marked as a reach weapon in any weapon table as the Rope Dart isnt part of any weapon table as far as I know, but it is also true that the definition of a reach weapon is: "a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her" and it means the Rope Dart qualifies as a reach weapon).

Besides I remember asking on this board how the Rope Dart worked on bigger-than-medium creatures some months ago and was told it tripled reach (which could be wrong of course), which makes sense by RAI (and is how I interpret it) but now you showed me the Balor example which swings the RAI the other way (but it is in no way implied that a Rope Dart and a Whip should behave the same way just because they give the same reach to medium creatures). Oh well, by RAI it is, but by RAW?

I'd leave this as a "ask your DM or just use a Spiked Chain so you dont have to figure this headache out" situation at this point.



EDIT: By RAW your interpretation is right (even if the Whip is by RAW referred to as a reach weapon and the Dart Rope by RAW is probably not).

1. Reach weapon=double reach on a bigger-than-medium creature
2. 15' reach weapons are reach weapons
3. 15' reach weapons on bigger-than-medium creatures double the creature base reach

However I would say that by RAI it doesnt make sense (and so do another thousand things in 3.5 which means this shouldnt be treated as an exception; however this case leaves more space to RAI than other and the Balor example could be just the consequence of the WotC guy statting it by RAW)

Googling Whip+Large creatures brings up a load of threads where this topic has been debated in detail with no definitive solution.

The most curious answer on how it works is (despite the question being about Pathfinder) James Jacobs': he ruled it triple reach (however the Balor still has 20' reach with his whip in Pathfinder), basically going against Paizo published content.

mabriss lethe
2016-03-19, 02:55 PM
Umbral Disciple didn't appear to be listed in that handbook, but can also increase your reach, but only on your turn, so not terribly useful for AoO builds and only comes online as the capstone of the PrC.

MilleniaAntares
2016-03-19, 09:05 PM
Long Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/long-arm)
Fluid Form (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fluid-form)

Longarm Bracers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/longarm-bracers)

SangoProduction
2016-03-19, 09:09 PM
Umbral Disciple didn't appear to be listed in that handbook, but can also increase your reach, but only on your turn, so not terribly useful for AoO builds and only comes online as the capstone of the PrC.

What happens if you grapple with this increased reach (with multigrab, so you don't have to move to their square)? Are they freed because they are no longer in your reach, or do they have to still break out of it?

Necroticplague
2016-03-19, 09:31 PM
What happens if you grapple with this increased reach (with multigrab, so you don't have to move to their square)? Are they freed because they are no longer in your reach, or do they have to still break out of it?

Multigrab doesn't stop you from having to move into their square. So if you grappled with that reach, you'd be yanked into their square in accord with the grapple rules, and then continue as normal.

SangoProduction
2016-03-19, 09:48 PM
Multigrab doesn't stop you from having to move into their square. So if you grappled with that reach, you'd be yanked into their square in accord with the grapple rules, and then continue as normal.

Improved grab*

Necroticplague
2016-03-19, 11:00 PM
Improved grab*

My point still stands. Improved Grab also doesn't say it negates the need to move into their space.