Isn't wish an automatic choice for all wizards?

[ericgrau]

First let's break down wish into "safe mode wish" and "super wish", where "super wish" is the option that has a 33% of making you unable to cast wish.

Now there are 3 possibilities for the wizard deciding which 9th level spell is best for him:
1. One casting of safe mode wish is better than one casting of other 9th level spells, one casting of super wish is better than other 9th level spells.
2. One casting of safe mode wish is worse than one casting of other 9th level spells, one casting of super wish is better than one casting of other 9th level spells.
3. One casting of safe mode wish is worse than one casting of other 9th level spells, one casting of super wish is worse than one casting of other 9th level spells.

Possibility #3: I am going to assume that everyone agrees that #3 is false and that a casting of super wish is better than a casting of any other 9th level spell. No matter what the character, build, or other circumstances.

Possibility #1: Okay, your wizard likes a casting of safe mode wish better than a casting of something else, so obviously he picks up wish. He probably avoids casting super wish, but either way he takes the spell wish.

Possibility #2: Your wizard would rather cast a different spell besides safe mode wish. BUT super wish is still better. And the only drawback is not being able to cast wish, something your wizard was going to do anyway. So the wizard still takes wish, casts it in super mode until he can't do it anymore, and then goes back to casting something else.

So it seems like every single wizard should take wish, and in spite of complaints the limitation on super wish is actually a bit weak. I mean in most gaming systems something being an automatic choice for everyone means that it is strictly better than everything else under all circumstances and therefore imbalanced compared to the other options. Even if we take into consideration having one less 9th level spell after your super wishes are burnt out, even one super wish seems to be worth more than getting one more 9th level spell in your spell book. Assuming you can't use one of your super wishes to simply wish for another 9th level spell in your spell book.

So for wish to not be an automatic choice that is strictly better than all other 9th level spells for a wizard, the drawback for casting super wish must be something beyond simply not being able to cast wish anymore.

[Flashy]

"super wish" is the option that has a 33% of making you unable to cast wish.

And regardless of whether or not you can cast Wish again your strength is set to 3 for the next 2-8 days, and until you finish a long rest you take 1d10 irresistible damage per spell level cast (so 8d10 if you cast an 8th level spell, followed by 5d10 if you then cast a 5th level spell, and so on). I'm not saying Wish is a bad spell, but you're understating the downsides of casting the supercharged version pretty severely. It takes you largely out of action until you finish a long rest. If you try for something more than the listed options, this is assuming the DM doesn't monkey's paw the wish, as the spell description explicitly gives them the right to do. That sort of arbitrary DM control isn't really a great balancing factor, but since we're talking about reasons you might decide not to take Wish I think it's worth pointing out.

Basically, there are a lot of reasons to take Shapechange, Foresight, True Polymorph, etc over a supercharged Wish every day. They're devastatingly powerful, and they don't turn off your ability to be a wizard for the next 12 hours.

EDIT: Fixed some phrasing that made it seem like I was saying the DM could monkey's paw one of the explicitly allowed super wish options, which isn't the case.

[ericgrau]

So cast it at the end of a dungeon, or cast it a day in advance? In the first case, your next spell is to teleport away. And that's assuming the wish takes more than 1 round to overcome the danger. Or, heck, sit and wait since you'll probably survive just fine until the challenge is overcome thanks to the 20 people you restored or what not.

Even at str 3, 5e's generous carrying capacity rules makes that not a big problem.

[Flashy]

So cast it at the end of a dungeon, or cast it a day in advance?

Most of the explicitly permitted supercharged wishes don't really do much if you cast it a day in advance. You can get an object worth 25k gp, and you can give 10 creatures resistance to a single damage type. Everything else either restores hit points, has a really limited casting window, or wears off after 8 hours. If you're asking for a supercharged wish that's not explicitly permitted you're back in the land of the monkey's paw. The Greater Restoration one works nicely at the end of an adventuring day, but why not just get someone to cast Greater Restoration if you're a 17th level wizard? Or just use the spell replication option and do it yourself.

[ericgrau]

Most of the explicitly permitted supercharged wishes don't really do much if you cast it a day in advance. You can get an object worth 25k gp, and you can give 10 creatures resistance to a single damage type. Everything else either restores hit points, has a really limited casting window, or wears off after 8 hours. If you're asking for a supercharged wish that's not explicitly permitted you're back in the land of the monkey's paw. The Greater Restoration one works nicely at the end of an adventuring day, but why not just get someone to cast Greater Restoration if you're a 17th level wizard. Or just use the spell replication option and do it yourself.
That's fine, your allies don't need you to win anymore. You gave them all they need. Though you could manage one more spell to be safe. And then after you win the plot arc you take a break.

I meant at the end during a final encounter, not after it. It doesn't even need to be the BBEG, it could be the last challenge of any area.

Heck if you feel paranoid go to a safe place after you've won.

[Flashy]

That's fine, your allies don't need you to win anymore. You gave them all they need. And then after you win the plot arc you take a break.

I meant at the end during a final encounter, not after it. It doesn't even need to be the BBEG, it could be the last challenge of any area.

That's a pretty optimistic viewpoint, isn't it? The situations directly improved by using one of the supercharged Wish options are a lot more contrived than the situations improved by being able to turn into an adult red dragon, a planetar, an iron golem, etc, and then being able to cast more than a single additional high level spell without dying. You can't really be certain that the wish will end the whole encounter, or that there won't be another encounter later.

Basically, my overarching point is that wish is only a vastly superior option if everything always goes exactly as planned. If you can prep the environment, or guarantee that the wish ends the fight it's amazing. If you can't then you're taking a big, big risk. It's still fantastic to have every 8th level or lower spell in the game on hand, mind.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'd say that, purely mechanically, wizards will pretty much always want to have Wish in their spellbooks, and will often want it prepared even if they have another 9th level prepared. Having access to any 8th or lower spell with 1 action casting time and no material costs is very good indeed.

However, that's because the opportunity cost for doing so is very low. Putting Wish in your spellbook only costs money, and preparing it uses just one of your 20+ prepared spells. Most of the time, unless there is a specific spell you need right now or that you don't have access to otherwise, the good 9th levels will be better - Shapechange or True Polymorph in particular can trivialise encounters.

As Flashy has stated, the penalties of casting an unsafe wish are very severe, even if you don't lose Wish, effectively rendering you a liability for days (at high levels, a wizard lacking the ability to cast spells above cantrips is not much of an asset). You underestimate the effects of losing Wish, because there is not a simple divide among Wizards who intend to use Wish and those who don't. Most Wizards who prefer other 9th level spells to Wish might nonetheless like to have it available in case they need to resurrect someone or something. Unsafe wishes should only even be considered when there are no other options available. Death is generally preferable, because at this kind of level, death is a condition that can be cured routinely, unlike losing Wish.

Tangentially, I must admit that I dislike Wish from a design viewpoint. It's inelegant.

[ericgrau]

effectively rendering you a liability for days (at high levels, a wizard lacking the ability to cast spells above cantrips is not much of an asset).
You can cast spells again after a long rest. Which isn't much different from most big encounters where it is already the last one of the day. And before resting you probably have plenty of hp for one more big spell, just in case there's slightly more to do. It's the str 3 which lasts for days, which isn't much of a drawback with the 45 lb. carrying capacity 5e gives.

The inability to cast wish is the biggest drawback which I mostly addressed. Not wanting to cast safemode wish now but wanting to cast safemode wish in the future is something I didn't consider. That could be a reason to not learn wish right away at least.

[SharkForce]

how do you tell when something is the last encounter of the day/plot arc/campaign etc?

i mean, i've never been in a campaign where that sort of thing is conveniently labelled.

[MaxWilson]

how do you tell when something is the last encounter of the day/plot arc/campaign etc?

i mean, i've never been in a campaign where that sort of thing is conveniently labelled.

Here's one heuristic: if another wizard has Mordenkainen's Magnificant Mansion prepped and ready, and there is no significant time pressure on your current activities (e.g. dungeon crawling instead of a hostage rescue mission), then the "last encounter of the day" is whatever encounter you retroactively decide was the last.

To a certain extent Leomund's Tiny Hut accomplishes the same thing.

[Ewhit]

Or the dm can manipulated the wish because all wishes are not worded correctly to prevent it

[Flashy]

Here's one heuristic: if another wizard has Mordenkainen's Magnificant Mansion prepped and ready, and there is no significant time pressure on your current activities (e.g. dungeon crawling instead of a hostage rescue mission), then the "last encounter of the day" is whatever encounter you retroactively decide was the last.

To a certain extent Leomund's Tiny Hut accomplishes the same thing.

In general I agree with you, but given that we're talking about enemies so powerful you need a non-standard Wish use to deal with them I feel like assuming they can't lay their hands on a 5th level Dispel Magic on eight hours of notice is pretty dubious.

At the end of the day the Wish supercharge options are neat, but they don't really pay for the cost. They don't give you many options that you couldn't fundamentally work out with a safe Wish use or most of the other high end 9th level spells. It's not overwhelmingly more valuable than shapechange or True Polymorph. Less, even, since True Polymorph lets you prepare well in advance.

[EvilAnagram]

I just possess a visceral hatred of Wish, and so I refuse to allow it in any game I run or use it in any game I play.

[PeteNutButter]

"-You grant up to ten creatures you can see resistance to a damage type you choose."

This effect has an instant duration and is therefore permanent. Given about a week, you can give the entire party resistance to all damage forever for zero cost... if only there was away to ensure that 33% never came up... I know I could wish it! That couldn't possibly end badly.

The bear totem barbarian is now sitting in the corner sad and dejected since he is longer special, that is up until you give him resistance to psychic damage. :smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

"safe mode wish"

No such thing. If your DM is mad enough, he will tell you that it fails no matter what part of the manual you try to show him.

[RickAllison]

"-You grant up to ten creatures you can see resistance to a damage type you choose."

This effect has an instant duration and is therefore permanent. Given about a week, you can give the entire party resistance to all damage forever for zero cost... if only there was away to ensure that 33% never came up... I know I could wish it! That couldn't possibly end badly.

The bear totem barbarian is now sitting in the corner sad and dejected since he is longer special, that is up until you give him resistance to psychic damage. :smallbiggrin:

Except that getting resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage (the barbarian's shtick) means your odds of not losing Wish go down to 29%. Trying to get resistance beyond that reduces it to 19%, 12.5%, 8%. It can make the barbarian sad, but it will also make the caster sad when he finds himself unable to cast one of the most useful and powerful spells.

[DivisibleByZero]

Isn't wish an automatic choice for most wizards?
In short, no, because most games don't ever get to 17th level. So I'd contend that wish is a fairly obscure and uncommon choice for wizards.

[Ewhit]

"-You grant up to ten creatures you can see resistance to a damage type you choose."

This effect has an instant duration and is therefore permanent. Given about a week, you can give the entire party resistance to all damage forever for zero cost... if only there was away to ensure that 33% never came up... I know I could wish it! That couldn't possibly end badly.

The bear totem barbarian is now sitting in the corner sad and dejected since he is longer special, that is up until you give him resistance to psychic damage. :smallbiggrin:

The dm turns all of them into a mineral with resistance to that element. Re roll characters

[Pex]

Personally I think Wish is just a D&D legacy. The designers really don't want players casting the spell, but they need to have it in the game because it's iconic to D&D as clerics turning undead. They throw a bone by allowing it to be used as any spell you want, which is ok because you only get one 9th level spell slot anyway, then pretend you can use it for anything else but really it's just a screw you. The established written ideas in the book on how to use the spell aside from a universal spell are all perfectly fine and balanced things to do they didn't need to figuratively tear up your character sheet and kiss that character goodbye in order to do them. They should have been part of the safe uses. The debilitating effects and chance for losing access to the spell are enough to discourage those players who want to Win D&D for going beyond the safe use.

The spell should just be renamed "Universal Spell" and be done with it because that's all it's really good for. It's a nice treat for Sorcerers and their very limited spells known and good for Wizards who erred in not preparing the right spell.

[Sigreid]

Except that getting resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage (the barbarian's shtick) means your odds of not losing Wish go down to 29%. Trying to get resistance beyond that reduces it to 19%, 12.5%, 8%. It can make the barbarian sad, but it will also make the caster sad when he finds himself unable to cast one of the most useful and powerful spells.

I think this is where simulacrum shenanigans comes in. While I wouldn't want an army of me, it's well worth the cost of creating one to have it loose it's wishing power giving you resistances. Naturally this would be a down time activity.

[SharkForce]

The spell should just be renamed "Universal Spell" and be done with it because that's all it's really good for. It's a nice treat for Sorcerers and their very limited spells known and good for Wizards who erred in not preparing the right spell.

oh, it's great even for wizards who do prepare the right spells. ignoring casting time and material components is a pretty worthwhile ability on its own. being able to do that *and* access other spell lists is even better.

but, just as an example, let us suppose for a moment that you encounter a fairly powerful extraplanar creature. for the sake of argument, a fey version of a half-dragon giant ape or something like that.

well, now, that's a truly *wonderful* target for planar binding. -2 to charisma saves means that if you've been maxing your spellcasting attribute (and why wouldn't you have been?) the ape cannot succeed on a saving throw (not even with a 20, which is not a guaranteed success except on attack rolls). even if you don't get something quite that good (like maybe it has +2 to its saving throw and magic resistance, which reduces your odds dramatically), you can get a fairly decent target.

of course, the downside is that you normally need to defeat the ape first and find a way to contain it while you cast planar binding (which takes a rather long time, more than you're likely to want to spend with a giant ape trying to kill you), not to mention the expensive material component. wish can let you cast planar binding in a single action with no material component cost though... changing that encounter from a fight into you gaining an ally (of course, you'll probably have a bunch of other enemies you need to deal with as well, which is definitely something to keep in mind).

or, in other words, wish can give you something roughly equivalent to a limited target dominate monster spell of earlier editions (not the kinda cruddy 5e version). half a year of service from something that was going to be an enemy. not bad at all if you ask me :)

[RickAllison]

oh, it's great even for wizards who do prepare the right spells. ignoring casting time and material components is a pretty worthwhile ability on its own. being able to do that *and* access other spell lists is even better.

but, just as an example, let us suppose for a moment that you encounter a fairly powerful extraplanar creature. for the sake of argument, a fey version of a half-dragon giant ape or something like that.

well, now, that's a truly *wonderful* target for planar binding. -2 to charisma saves means that if you've been maxing your spellcasting attribute (and why wouldn't you have been?) the ape cannot succeed on a saving throw (not even with a 20, which is not a guaranteed success except on attack rolls). even if you don't get something quite that good (like maybe it has +2 to its saving throw and magic resistance, which reduces your odds dramatically), you can get a fairly decent target.

of course, the downside is that you normally need to defeat the ape first and find a way to contain it while you cast planar binding (which takes a rather long time, more than you're likely to want to spend with a giant ape trying to kill you), not to mention the expensive material component. wish can let you cast planar binding in a single action with no material component cost though... changing that encounter from a fight into you gaining an ally (of course, you'll probably have a bunch of other enemies you need to deal with as well, which is definitely something to keep in mind).

or, in other words, wish can give you something roughly equivalent to a limited target dominate monster spell of earlier editions (not the kinda cruddy 5e version). half a year of service from something that was going to be an enemy. not bad at all if you ask me :)

What are some other spells that remove costly material components?
Awaken
Resurrection spells
The above Planar Binding
What else?

[Degwerks]

I know my DM wouldn't allow me to Wish-cast a Simulacrum in order to get him to cast Wish. He'd say I used my 9th lvl slot already & since I just made a copy of me, he also has a used up 9th lvl slot.

However I would just True Polymorph him the next day into a Planetar permanently and gain a new best friend.

[Elbeyon]

I know my DM wouldn't allow me to Wish-cast a Simulacrum in order to get him to cast Wish. He'd say I used my 9th lvl slot already & since I just made a copy of me, he also has a used up 9th lvl slot.

However I would just True Polymorph him the next day into a Planetar permanently and gain a new best friend.Why not cast Simulacrum without using up your 9th level slot? :smallbiggrin:

[JoeJ]

I just possess a visceral hatred of Wish, and so I refuse to allow it in any game I run or use it in any game I play.

I don't have a visceral hatred of it, but I don't think it's something that should be on a spell list so when I DM it's not available. To get a wish you have to obtain a magic ring, or negotiate with a genie noble, or something equally adventurous and cool.

[lebefrei]

I usually only DM, and I don't mind Wish. First off, WotC doesn't care about level 17. That is plainly obvious. Why? Not a single adventure let's you get to 17. They all end at 15, and one AL game went to 16. The developers seem to see 17-20 as home game territory.

As far as the original question goes, Wizards and Sorcerers should have wish, and there is nothing wrong with that. You're level 17, minimum. You want options, and you've worked that hard for power. The game has actually managed to last this long. Why not finish with crazy things happening. With such a high fail chance, I am willing to let players try to Wish for a lot of things.

Remember, you are not playing against the players as a DM! Yes, you control the monsters and shape their motivations, including trying to kill PCs. When a player casts Wish you aren't granting it as an enemy, and you shouldn't immediately cackle and start thinking of ways to screw them. That is the job of Pit Fiends and evil Genies.

In contrast, it also shouldn't be an immediate "I win" button every time. Regulate it fairly and to maximize fun. Every non-spell reproducing cast could be their last. Eventually that player will lose Wish, and then they will have to use other 9th level spells. Love it while it lasts, and let them have fun.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I don't have a visceral hatred of it, but I don't think it's something that should be on a spell list so when I DM it's not available. To get a wish you have to obtain a magic ring, or negotiate with a genie noble, or something equally adventurous and cool.

My opinion exactly.

[Degwerks]

Why not cast Simulacrum without using up your 9th level slot? :smallbiggrin:

Might not have the spell, I might not want to spend the money, or it might be an emergency .

[MadBear]

I disagree with the premise that there are only 3 options.

You have

1. wish is better then another spell
2. wish is not better then another spell
3. super wish is better then another spell
4. super wish is not better then another spell
5. wish and super wish are better then another spell
6. wish and super wish are not better then another spell

So you actually have 6 different possible statements you could make here, not 3. in addition, I'd point out that context matters. Questions like:

- What other characters are in your group
- What's your DM like
- What kind of campaign is being run
- What's your combat/rest ratio
- What other spells do you have

Each of these will influence whether wish/superwish is the best available choice. You can certainly engineer scenario's such that both wish and superwish are the preferable spells to have in your arsenal, but it is far from certain to be the case.

So based on this, I'd reject them all on the grounds of having insufficient evidence to determine what the right call is.

[Degwerks]

I know if I was a Bard, i'd take Wish for sure with my lvl 18 spell secrets choice.

[Drackolus]

I know if I was a Bard, i'd take Wish for sure with my lvl 18 spell secrets choice.

I know, as a bard, I'm going to take Wish with my lvl 18 magical secret. Considering true polymorph and permanantly turning myself into an adult gold dragon so that I'm a bard with 24 charisma, then using the gold dragon's ability to polymorph into a humanoid so I can still use all my goodies - basically, swapping a spell choice for a massive boost to stats. And I'm a dragon. Of course, it's a good idea to make sure that your DM would allow you to keep your class levels. Then again, there's plenty of benefits to being a dragon.

As to using wish, I think it's optimal to not use the more dangerous option. But, if your whole party is down and you've got nothing going for you but Wish... well, you've got nothing else to lose. Or you could just use the safe option to teleport out and get some powerful cleric to true resurrect them later. Actually, that's probably the smarter option. Less risk. But, hey, maybe that's not an option either.

[SharkForce]

I know, as a bard, I'm going to take Wish with my lvl 18 magical secret. Considering true polymorph and permanantly turning myself into an adult gold dragon so that I'm a bard with 24 charisma, then using the gold dragon's ability to polymorph into a humanoid so I can still use all my goodies - basically, swapping a spell choice for a massive boost to stats. And I'm a dragon. Of course, it's a good idea to make sure that your DM would allow you to keep your class levels. Then again, there's plenty of benefits to being a dragon.

As to using wish, I think it's optimal to not use the more dangerous option. But, if your whole party is down and you've got nothing going for you but Wish... well, you've got nothing else to lose. Or you could just use the safe option to teleport out and get some powerful cleric to true resurrect them later. Actually, that's probably the smarter option. Less risk. But, hey, maybe that's not an option either.

if you true polymorph into a gold dragon, you true polymorph out of being a bard. you lose your statistics. including all of your bard abilities.

anyways, another interesting spell to cast with wish is glyph of warding :)

as written, it's basically LoS range concentration-free offensive spellcasting for a spell of up to level 8 as long as you can figure out what your desired target is looking at (you do expend 2 spell slots, but nothing's perfect).

[djreynolds]

Hypothetically, you could select the wish spell. Cast the wish spell to gain so many scrolls to put into your wizards spellbook. Long rest and wish again, rinse and repeat, until you have every spell.

You could do that, your DM has final word. But wishing for more spell scrolls should be very benign. Now you don't have to worry about getting spells, just what to prepare.

Or maybe I'm just wishing. Or wish for a merchant who has all those spell scrolls and buy them.

[Snile]

"-You grant up to ten creatures you can see resistance to a damage type you choose."

This effect has an instant duration and is therefore permanent. Given about a week, you can give the entire party resistance to all damage forever for zero cost... if only there was away to ensure that 33% never came up... I know I could wish it! That couldn't possibly end badly.

The bear totem barbarian is now sitting in the corner sad and dejected since he is longer special, that is up until you give him resistance to psychic damage. :smallbiggrin:

Simulacrum should help there, no need to wish when your clone takes the risk for you.

[PoeticDwarf]

Isn't Eldritch Blast an automatic choice for all warlocks?

What's the point on this thread

[Sigreid]

"-You grant up to ten creatures you can see resistance to a damage type you choose."

This effect has an instant duration and is therefore permanent. Given about a week, you can give the entire party resistance to all damage forever for zero cost... if only there was away to ensure that 33% never came up... I know I could wish it! That couldn't possibly end badly.

The bear totem barbarian is now sitting in the corner sad and dejected since he is longer special, that is up until you give him resistance to psychic damage. :smallbiggrin:

At that point the champion fighter becomes the most unkillable SOB when you combine resistance with that healing factor of theirs.

[JumboWheat01]

Hypothetically, you could select the wish spell. Cast the wish spell to gain so many scrolls to put into your wizards spellbook. Long rest and wish again, rinse and repeat, until you have every spell.

You could do that, your DM has final word. But wishing for more spell scrolls should be very benign. Now you don't have to worry about getting spells, just what to prepare.

Or maybe I'm just wishing. Or wish for a merchant who has all those spell scrolls and buy them.

You wish for spell scrolls? Sure, here have this large pile of them, they're full of cleric and druid spells. Have fun!

[Vogonjeltz]

I know my DM wouldn't allow me to Wish-cast a Simulacrum in order to get him to cast Wish. He'd say I used my 9th lvl slot already & since I just made a copy of me, he also has a used up 9th lvl slot.

However I would just True Polymorph him the next day into a Planetar permanently and gain a new best friend.

For the hour prior to being permanently polymorphed, perhaps.

[Drackolus]

if you true polymorph into a gold dragon, you true polymorph out of being a bard. you lose your statistics. including all of your bard abilities.

CURSES! Ah well, I'll have to find some other way to become a dragon.

Maybe I could just "I wish to be a living ancient gold dragon with all my memories, capabilities, and personality."

That can't possibly end poorly.

[Sigreid]

CURSES! Ah well, I'll have to find some other way to become a dragon.

Maybe I could just "I wish to be a living ancient gold dragon with all my memories, capabilities, and personality."

That can't possibly end poorly.

Just ask your DM if you can true polymorph into a spellcasting variant dragon.

[Drackolus]

Just ask your DM if you can true polymorph into a spellcasting variant dragon.

For a grand total of 7 5th level spells or lower per day as adult gold or 4 6th level spells or lower per day as ancient brass. It's an improvement, but not a big one.

Then again, being a dragon has plenty of its own benefits. Especially if you're just tired of being a bard after 18 levels. And it's not nearly as risky. You'd probably want to convince your dm to let you take a few class levels as a dragon so you're not a cr17 monster in a lvl 20 group. Though, an adult gold dragon would still certainly be a valuable asset. For example, you'd save a lot of money in transportation ;)

[lebefrei]

You wish for spell scrolls? Sure, here have this large pile of them, they're full of cleric and druid spells. Have fun!

Why? Would you really do this? We as DMs are not supposed to play as adversaries to players. The DMG is very explicit in this. Only if they're blatantly trying to exploit the spell or wishing for ridiculously powerful effects should you do this.

Wishing for scrolls within 25k gp value, or even more so for a scroll merchant, is entirely reasonable. You should grant the wish. They already took a 33% failure chance to cast it! Any DM punishing a player for this is a bad DM. We are not the players' enemy!

[JumboWheat01]

Why? Would you really do this? We as DMs are not supposed to play as adversaries to players. The DMG is very explicit in this. Only if they're blatantly trying to exploit the spell or wishing for ridiculously powerful effects should you do this.

Wishing for scrolls within 25k gp value, or even more so for a scroll merchant, is entirely reasonable. You should grant the wish. They already took a 33% failure chance to cast it! Any DM punishing a player for this is a bad DM. We are not the players' enemy!

They never specified WIZARD spell scrolls, only spell scrolls they can put in their spell book. Which they can, by flattening out the scroll and sticking it between the pages. If they actually wished for WIZARD spell scrolls, sure, I'd be totally for it.

It's all about the wording.

[Norgrim Malgus]

They never specified WIZARD spell scrolls, only spell scrolls they can put in their spell book. Which they can, by flattening out the scroll and sticking it between the pages. If they actually wished for WIZARD spell scrolls, sure, I'd be totally for it.

It's all about the wording.

No, it's about the intent. A Wizard using a Wish to gain a couple of scrolls is not looking for Cleric or Druid spells, obviously.

[JumboWheat01]

No, it's about the intent. A Wizard using a Wish to gain a couple of scrolls is not looking for Cleric or Druid spells, obviously.

Do we really know that? A Wizard could totally be trying to crack the secret of divine magic to make it work through arcane means. Wizards are weird like that.

[Norgrim Malgus]

Do we really know that? A Wizard could totally be trying to crack the secret of divine magic to make it work through arcane means. Wizards are weird like that.

Do I really know that a Wizard asking for some spell scrolls actually wants Wizard spells unless specified? Yes.

[JumboWheat01]

Do I really know that a Wizard asking for some spell scrolls actually wants Wizard spells unless specified? Yes.

You need to play with some weirder Wizards then. Some of the ones I've been in party with, lemme tell you...

Anyhoo, I should probably add to the discussion instead of being weird. While yes, any Wizard who happens to stumble upon a scroll or it in someone else's book should totally have Wish. But then again, that's the shtick of a Wizard. If it exist as an arcane spell, they should totally have it in one book or another, even if they currently have no idea or intention of ever having a use for it. It might be useful in one specific situation SOMEDAY, so they should totally prepare for that day.

A Wizard that isn't prepared is a dead Wizard. Or a Sorcerer trying REALLY hard to pass themself off as something they're not.

[Norgrim Malgus]

You know, the more I keep looking at the Wish spell, the more I feel that it would not be an automatic choice, for me at any rate. The ability to cast any spell of 8th level or lower is no trivial thing, but venture beyond that aspect of the spell and Here, there be Dragons.

[JoeJ]

Why? Would you really do this? We as DMs are not supposed to play as adversaries to players. The DMG is very explicit in this. Only if they're blatantly trying to exploit the spell or wishing for ridiculously powerful effects should you do this.

Wishing for scrolls within 25k gp value, or even more so for a scroll merchant, is entirely reasonable. You should grant the wish. They already took a 33% failure chance to cast it! Any DM punishing a player for this is a bad DM. We are not the players' enemy!

This is a prime example of why I think wishes should be granted by powerful extraplanar beings instead of spells. If there's an intelligent being involved, then whether or not the meaning gets twisted can largely be a function of the relationship that being has with the PCs, which is something that the PCs have some control over.

[Degwerks]

For the hour prior to being permanently polymorphed, perhaps.

Its true that he would no longer need to do my bidding, but I'm sure he'd be slightly happy that he's now an angel with his own desires.

[SharkForce]

my personal policy on wishes that fail because the request is too powerful is that the spell will generally cut corners until the wish is not too powerful.

a wish will not *actively* try to screw you over unless you're getting it from some other being that is trying to screw you over. so if you get a wish from a grateful djinn, you can expect the wish to at worst cut corners (and the djinn will probably warn you before granting the wish). if you force an efreeti to grant you a wish under threat of death, expect the efreeti to be angry and vengeful and do everything in its power to make sure the wish screws you over, or gives the efreeti something they wanted, or both. unless it doesn't think it can get away with it (but it probably does think it can get away with it, because you're just a dumb human(oid) hick from the prime material).

[Envyus]

I remember were a party got wish from an Efreet. The Efreeti did not like the party and wanted to harm them. So when he agreed to grant any single wish they wanted it was with the intent of screwing them over. The party wished to be at the location of the macguffin they were looking for. So the efreeti teleported them and the item into a volcano.

They later learned after narrowly surviving, that the efreeti there was the type to always corrupt a wish in order to kill the people making it and they were lucky to escape. A few examples given to the party were, the time someone wished for a large amount of gold and the efreeti created it inside him, or the time were it could not think of a way to corrupt the wish to kill the person making it so he just set the guy on fire under the reasoning that he never wished he wasn't on fire.

[Slipperychicken]

my personal policy on wishes that fail because the request is too powerful is that the spell will generally cut corners until the wish is not too powerful.

a wish will not *actively* try to screw you over unless you're getting it from some other being that is trying to screw you over. so if you get a wish from a grateful djinn, you can expect the wish to at worst cut corners (and the djinn will probably warn you before granting the wish). if you force an efreeti to grant you a wish under threat of death, expect the efreeti to be angry and vengeful and do everything in its power to make sure the wish screws you over, or gives the efreeti something they wanted, or both. unless it doesn't think it can get away with it (but it probably does think it can get away with it, because you're just a dumb human(oid) hick from the prime material).

You know, you'd think that a little communication would go a long way in these situations.

Maybe instead of turning your wife into a zombie, the genie could say "well hey wait a minute. If you wish for that, it'll turn your wife into a mindless walking corpse, and I don't think that's what you're looking for. I'm grateful that you let me out of that bottle and all, so I don't want you to get screwed over by this. Let's try and work out something that you'll be satisfied with".


If the genie's just going to try and screw you over like that, you might as well wish it to never grant any more wishes. If for no other reason than to spare others from its shenanigans.

[SharkForce]

You know, you'd think that a little communication would go a long way in these situations.

Maybe instead of turning your wife into a zombie, the genie could say "well hey wait a minute. If you wish for that, it'll turn your wife into a mindless walking corpse, and I don't think that's what you're looking for. I'm grateful that you let me out of that bottle and all, so I don't want you to get screwed over by this. Let's try and work out something that you'll be satisfied with".


If the genie's just going to try and screw you over like that, you might as well wish it to never grant any more wishes. If for no other reason than to spare others from its shenanigans.

i did say a freely given gift from a djinn would include a warning if you're about to make a bad wish. the djinn won't necessarily know exactly how it will turn out (but could make a guess; it is reasonable to speculate that a wish-granting creature has some experience in how wishes tend to turn out) but should definitely know when something is not going to turn out the way you want (that is, the wish-granter will know if you go beyond the "safe" requests).

it's only when you get a wish from something that has a reason to try to screw you over that you need to worry about actively getting screwed over, in my games at least. that is, if you wish for a million gold pieces, a friendly djinn will warn you that you won't get exactly what you want, and then grant the wish if you still want anyways (you will probably get a million gold pieces that are so debased their actual value is 25,000 gold pieces, or a million small pieces of gold that add up to 25,000 regular gp in value; like i said, a friendly or self-cast wish will cut corners until your wish is no longer beyond reasonable, but will not try to actively harm you. this is not the same as saying that you cannot be harmed; rather, you will only be harmed if that is the most reasonable shortcut).

in contrast, if you wish for that from an efreeti who you've got at sword point, you can expect him to teleport you into an evil dragon's lair (still cutting corners, the wish doesn't have infinite power, but now the corner-cutting is designed to hurt you) or make it rain a million heavily debased gold coins on your head in an attempt to kill you.

[Safety Sword]

Simulacrum should help there, no need to wish when your clone takes the risk for you.

If I was your clone, I would literally tell you to go f%$# yourself because I'm a strong willed wizard, just like you and I'm smart enough to know that I'm not risking my life for your betterment.

And yes, that could get awkward.

[Sigreid]

If I was your clone, I would literally tell you to go f%$# yourself because I'm a strong willed wizard, just like you and I'm smart enough to know that I'm not risking my life for your betterment.

And yes, that could get awkward.

By the description of the spell, the simulacrum would not have a choice. They are 100% subservient.

[Safety Sword]

By the description of the spell, the simulacrum would not have a choice. They are 100% subservient.

Some people are into that I guess...

[Reaper34]

am i the only one that has had wish spells almost always go horribly wrong? granted i haven't used it in 5e but in all other editions wish was a option of last resort except to buff stats permentally.

[SharkForce]

am i the only one that has had wish spells almost always go horribly wrong? granted i haven't used it in 5e but in all other editions wish was a option of last resort except to buff stats permentally.

"don't touch that spell, it's garbage" is not broadly speaking an improvement. most of the level 9 spells in 5e are great in some way or another. wish is amazing, but it can't do what true polymorph does. true polymorph is great, but it can't do what shapechange does. shapechange is great for some things, but it isn't an all-day buff like foresight. foresight is great, but if you want to nuke an army or small town from a mile away, you need meteor swarm. and so on.

wish being a spell worth using is not a bad thing.

I mean, yes, I've played in editions where wish was (and was supposed to be) an open invitation for the DM to screw you over. and you know what happens? nobody uses it when it can do that. it might as well not exist, really. it was there as a means to fix only certain specific examples of safe wishes (generally various spells say "only wish can undo this" or something like that), and might as well have just been called "even greater restoration than regular greater restoration, except it might also just screw you over".

[Norgrim Malgus]

I would have been fine with it if they made the 33% chance come into affect if you went outside the bounds of mimicking any 8th level or lower spell and the bulleted 'other' uses. I would even compromise and say you can use the bulleted options right then and there as an 'oh crap' action and keep the % chance to never cast it again but also make the bulleted options also usable as a ritual casting in which case you can avoid the chance of loss.

As it's written, it's a bit too Sword of Damocles for my tastes.

[Roughishguy86]

I personally have only played 3 or 4 games where we made it to high enough levels for anyone to cast wish. But in my opinion i see no reason you need wish. i agree that its only even in the game for legacy reasons like the tarrasque which the hit with the biggest nerf bat you can buy. If a dm allows it and a player wants it sure they should be able too have it but if you truly beleive there isn't a better spell of that level you are looking at it through a peephole and are missing alot of other spells that level.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I know if I was a Bard, i'd take Wish for sure with my lvl 18 spell secrets choice.
That's not the worst thing you could do, but it's worse for Bards than it is for wizards, because wizards can learn new 9th level spells if that 33% chance kicks in and makes them unable to cast Wish again. If it happens to a Bard, you're down one 9th level spell forever.

True Polymorph and Mass Heal (or Meteor Shower, depending on your play style) are probably better options, though not by too much since being able to safely cast any lower level spell can be useful.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

That's not the worst thing you could do, but it's worse for Bards than it is for wizards, because wizards can learn new 9th level spells if that 33% chance kicks in and makes them unable to cast Wish again. If it happens to a Bard, you're down one 9th level spell forever.

True Polymorph and Mass Heal (or Meteor Shower, depending on your play style) are probably better options, though not by too much since being able to safely cast any lower level spell can be useful.

No, because you never use an unsafe wish. Or you only do it if you're doomed otherwise (and there are very few circumstances the right 8th level spell can't either salvage or get you out of). Wish's primary use is to massively expand your available spells (which is exceedingly good for a spells known caster like a bard), not to ask the DM to press the Deus Ex Machina button.

[RickAllison]

That's not the worst thing you could do, but it's worse for Bards than it is for wizards, because wizards can learn new 9th level spells if that 33% chance kicks in and makes them unable to cast Wish again. If it happens to a Bard, you're down one 9th level spell forever.

True Polymorph and Mass Heal (or Meteor Shower, depending on your play style) are probably better options, though not by too much since being able to safely cast any lower level spell can be useful.

As TheTeaMustFlow stated, Sorcerers and Bards love the Wish spell because they get one spell from any spell-list, which is fantastic for classes that don't even have 20 spells known.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

As TheTeaMustFlow stated, Sorcerers and Bards love the Wish spell because they get one spell from any spell-list, which is fantastic for classes that don't even have 20 spells known.

Lore Bards have 24 spells known. So, a bit more fantastic for sorcerers, since they only get 15 spells and lack the bard's ability to cherry pick things off of their class list.Which is why it's true that every sorcerer I've made since 3.0 has Wish.

But if you're never using unsafe wishes, then you're giving up power for flexibility. And as a level 18 Bard you're probably already very flexible, which is why I see a couple of the more powerful 9th level spells as slightly better picks, but only slightly because the degree of flexibility Wish offers is definitely huge.

On the other hand, I may be biased because I didn't feel like repeating my sorcerer's exact spell selection, so I ended up using my spell secrets on other things like Mass Heal (700 hp of healing is a pretty good panic button).

[Segev]

If I was your clone, I would literally tell you to go f%$# yourself because I'm a strong willed wizard, just like you and I'm smart enough to know that I'm not risking my life for your betterment.

And yes, that could get awkward.


By the description of the spell, the simulacrum would not have a choice. They are 100% subservient.

As Sigreid says, the simulacrum is magically bound to obey you, regardless of whom it is made. It is also noteworthy that it doesn't "think" it's the person it mimics. It's an illusion capable of MIMICKNIG them, and it shares their personality, but as much as there's any "there" there behind its eyes, that awareness knows that it's just a somewhat temporary illusion.

Honestly, the best way to run simulacra, I think, is as legitimate philosophical zombies which do not have a sense of self-awareness and associated self-preservation beyond that which is necessary to fake, when commanded to, being the entity they resemble. They're not clones. They're very good facsimiles. They certainly cannot change in the manner of a real being; if they were created when the original was a venal playboy, even if they engaged in the same adventures as that venal playboy that shaped the real one into a noble and kind protector, the simulacrum would remain a venal playboy, never internalizing the changes and lessons that shaped the shift in the original's personality.

[JumboWheat01]

As Sigreid says, the simulacrum is magically bound to obey you, regardless of whom it is made. It is also noteworthy that it doesn't "think" it's the person it mimics. It's an illusion capable of MIMICKNIG them, and it shares their personality, but as much as there's any "there" there behind its eyes, that awareness knows that it's just a somewhat temporary illusion.

Now what if you actually hate yourself? And suddenly there's another you around. What would be the first thing out of the other you's mouth?

[Doug Lampert]

Now what if you actually hate yourself? And suddenly there's another you around. What would be the first thing out of the other you's mouth?

I don't know. Here's another one, what if you are just a character in a game and that game has rules and those rules TELL you what happens.

We could call them the laws of magic, or the laws of physics, or something similar, and we wouldn't be able to arbitrarily break them because someone doesn't like the implications of those rules! Wow! How freakish would that be!

In that case the Simulacrum isn't you, doesn't hate you, and obeys orders.

Now, God, or as we jokingly call him, the GM can change the rules, but AFAICT a just god doesn't do so arbitrarily or in the middle of things.

[JumboWheat01]

I don't know. Here's another one, what if you are just a character in a game and that game has rules and those rules TELL you what happens.

We could call them the laws of magic, or the laws of physics, or something similar, and we wouldn't be able to arbitrarily break them because someone doesn't like the implications of those rules! Wow! How freakish would that be!

In that case the Simulacrum isn't you, doesn't hate you, and obeys orders.

Now, God, or as we jokingly call him, the GM can change the rules, but AFAICT a just god doesn't do so arbitrarily or in the middle of things.

You can still obey orders perfectly fine while hating the person giving the orders.

[SharkForce]

You can still obey orders perfectly fine while hating the person giving the orders.

but you can't hate them and also have an attitude of being friendly. which the simulacrum explicitly has.

[JumboWheat01]

but you can't hate them and also have an attitude of being friendly. which the simulacrum explicitly has.

So he's a frenemy then.

[SharkForce]

So he's a frenemy then.

no, it is friendly to you. not acts friendly or seems friendly, it *is* friendly. again, says so right in the spell description.

[JumboWheat01]

no, it is friendly to you. not acts friendly or seems friendly, it *is* friendly. again, says so right in the spell description.

Is it friendly, the emotional state, or friendly, the reaction state. A friendly NPC doesn't necessarily like you, he's just more inclined to help you out.

[HoodedHero007]

Honestly i'm a fan of being able to true polymorph into a gold dragon, as you can do it into any creature, and there is nothing saying you forget your spells

[SharkForce]

Honestly i'm a fan of being able to true polymorph into a gold dragon, as you can do it into any creature, and there is nothing saying you forget your spells

wizard (or bard, or warlock, etc) spellcasting is a statistic. you lose your own statistics. you gain those of the creature you become. true polymorphing into a gold dragon means you forget your spells.

[Segev]

Do gold dragons have spellcasting in 5e? If so, how much/what is it?

[Ace Jackson]

Do gold dragons have spellcasting in 5e? If so, how much/what is it?

Per MM, spellcasting is a variant, a dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to cha mod, once per day, no higher in spell level then one third CR rounding down. Cha is the spellcasting stat.

Beyond any variants allowing for class levels on monsters. That's all they can get by RAW in 5e.

[Segev]

Per MM, spellcasting is a variant, a dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to cha mod, once per day, no higher in spell level then one third CR rounding down. Cha is the spellcasting stat.

Beyond any variants allowing for class levels on monsters. That's all they can get by RAW in 5e.

Yeah, use true polymorph on your familiar, then. Or a random passing animal. Don't use it on yourself. Now you have a cool mount. And if you treat it well while it's magically friendly to you, it might stick around anyway. Or, if it's your familiar, it's still probably your familiar; the various effects of being a familiar are effects of the find familiar spell, not statistics on the creature. (That said, it does mean you just removed its ability to attack. Which might be a problem for a gold dragon's usefulness.)

[Ace Jackson]

Yeah, use true polymorph on your familiar, then. Or a random passing animal. Don't use it on yourself. Now you have a cool mount. And if you treat it well while it's magically friendly to you, it might stick around anyway. Or, if it's your familiar, it's still probably your familiar; the various effects of being a familiar are effects of the find familiar spell, not statistics on the creature. (That said, it does mean you just removed its ability to attack. Which might be a problem for a gold dragon's usefulness.)

Would actually work best on a firewood pile, or other large, more singular and solid object, as creature to creature TP requires the new form to be equal or less in CR to the old form. Still, I like the idea.

[Segev]

Would actually work best on a firewood pile, or other large, more singular and solid object, as creature to creature TP requires the new form to be equal or less in CR to the old form.Ah, right. I knew I was forgetting something. But yeah, definitely useful on an object; the dragon wouldn't even exist without you, and you (if you're smart) are treating it well, as a valued companion. It should like you. And it has nothing BETTER to do.


Still, I like the idea.Thanks!

[Sigreid]

Per MM, spellcasting is a variant, a dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to cha mod, once per day, no higher in spell level then one third CR rounding down. Cha is the spellcasting stat.

Beyond any variants allowing for class levels on monsters. That's all they can get by RAW in 5e.

There has been some discussion on this forum of an interesting (to me) idea that "epic levels" could be handled by allowing the party to true polymorph into powerful forms and then start their class levels again at level 1. So your wizard could polymorph into a gold dragon and then spend the next leg of the game re-learning how to be a wizard with a dragon's (or pit fiend's for that matter) connection to the magic.

[HoodedHero007]

Yeah, use true polymorph on your familiar, then. Or a random passing animal. Don't use it on yourself. Now you have a cool mount. And if you treat it well while it's magically friendly to you, it might stick around anyway. Or, if it's your familiar, it's still probably your familiar; the various effects of being a familiar are effects of the find familiar spell, not statistics on the creature. (That said, it does mean you just removed its ability to attack. Which might be a problem for a gold dragon's usefulness.)
Take a warlock's familiar (I think they can attack), cast polymorph, then true polymorph.
This might work, depending on the DM

[Segev]

Take a warlock's familiar (I think they can attack), cast polymorph, then true polymorph.
This might work, depending on the DM

The warlock's familiar requires the warlock spend his action to let the familiar attack, I believe.

[JoeJ]

Take a warlock's familiar (I think they can attack), cast polymorph, then true polymorph.
This might work, depending on the DM

You'd still be limited to no more than the original CR of the familiar. Neither Polymorph nor True Polymorph allow you to exceed that.

If you want maximum cheese with True Polymorph, you can abuse the creature-to-object function. Unlike other spells that create objects, TP does not specify that the object can't be a magic item. So, assuming you have an incredibly gullible agreeable DM, you can turn ants into whatever magic items you want.

[SharkForce]

Take a warlock's familiar (I think they can attack), cast polymorph, then true polymorph.
This might work, depending on the DM

both polymorph and true polymorph are limited by the CR of the original creature. true polymorph is only able to turn objects into creatures of CR 9 or less. you *can* true polymorph a stick into a dragon, but not an ancient one (also, true polymorph on an object gives you a fairly loyal minion for an hour).

[Zalabim]

Turning ants into magic items would certainly require DM approval, and probably require knowing about the items first. It could also leave you with magic items that could be disjoined by dispel magic. It could be a neat trick for an archmage to pull when rewarding an adventuring party.


Ah, right. I knew I was forgetting something. But yeah, definitely useful on an object; the dragon wouldn't even exist without you, and you (if you're smart) are treating it well, as a valued companion. It should like you. And it has nothing BETTER to do.

Thanks!

Holding the first fact over its head is a good way to make your children hate you. The second fact is hardly true, since it could be amassing a hoard, not fighting and risking its life for some shortsighted humanoid's goal, and not risking getting dispelled. Though I'm not perfectly clear whether "the transformation becomes permanent" is to mean the spell lasts permanently, or that the spell ends and the target no longer changes back.


both polymorph and true polymorph are limited by the CR of the original creature. true polymorph is only able to turn objects into creatures of CR 9 or less. you *can* true polymorph a stick into a dragon, but not an ancient one (also, true polymorph on an object gives you a fairly loyal minion for an hour).

Unfortunately, object to creature has to be the same size, so it'd have to be a really big stick or a really small dragon*. Creature to object has no such restriction, so you could turn a twig blight into a statue of an ancient dragon, or a dragon into a twig.

*Or sticks to snakes.