Targeting touch AC

[Shnigda]

Hey guys, what are the ways for a melee character to target touch AC on a melee attack? (so that more can be got out of Power Attack)
Is there a way of getting Wraithstrike to last longer than 1 round?

[Necroticplague]

Is there a way of getting Wraithstrike to last longer than 1 round?

Persistent Spell makes it last 24 hours.

[Shnigda]

Persistent Spell makes it last 24 hours.

Any way of a Fighter-type getting hold of that easily without a wizard in the party?

[Troacctid]

Warblades can easily target touch AC with Emerald Razor.


Any way of a Fighter-type getting hold of that easily without a wizard in the party?

Easily? No.

[Necroticplague]

Any way of a Fighter-type getting hold of that easily without a wizard in the party?

A wand. Wraithstrike is a third level spell, so it's small enough to fit on a wand. Metamagics don't change the level of a spell, so it's still small enough to fit on a wand post-metamagic.

[Troacctid]

Metamagics don't change the level of a spell, so it's still small enough to fit on a wand post-metamagic.
They do (barring Energy Substitution and the like), and it isn't.


With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).

Also, Wraithstrike is a 2nd level spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

[IcarusWulfe]

The maneuvers Emerald Razor from the Time of Battle allows you to make your next melee attack a touch attack. The Heartseeker Amulet does much the same.

[Seppo87]

Is there any way to achieve the same effect as Wraithstrike on Ranged weapons instead?

[Necroticplague]

They do (barring Energy Substitution and the like), and it isn't. Barring Heighten, Sanctum, and similar, they don't.

As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Wraithstrike is a second level spell. Persistent Wraithstrike is still a second level spell (as per the underlined portion). Thus, you can fit it on a wand.

[Troacctid]

Barring Heighten, Sanctum, and similar, they don't.


Wraithstrike is a second level spell. Persistent Wraithstrike is still a second level spell (as per the underlined portion). Thus, you can fit it on a wand.

It still counts as a higher level spell for wand purposes, per the rule I just cited.

[Necroticplague]

It still counts as a higher level spell for wand purposes, per the rule I just cited.

No, it doesn't, because the rules you yourself cited mention "spell level", something that is explicitely not changed by metamagic.

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).
So, outside of Heighten or similar, the spell's spell level is the same post-metamagic. It would be one thing if it said "a spell with a metamagic applied to it is considered to have a spell level equal to the slot needed to cast it when crafting scrolls, potions, or wands". However, lacking such language, the divorice of spell slot needed to cast and spell level make this still possible.

[Shnigda]

No, it doesn't, because the rules you yourself cited mention "spell level", something that is explicitely not changed by metamagic.

So, outside of Heighten or similar, the spell's spell level is the same post-metamagic. It would be one thing if it said "a spell with a metamagic applied to it is considered to have a spell level equal to the slot needed to cast it when crafting scrolls, potions, or wands". However, lacking such language, the divorice of spell slot needed to cast and spell level make this still possible.

Perhaps this is a RAW vs RAI issue?

[A_S]

Perhaps this is a RAW vs RAI issue?
I think that's being generous. This is a "WotC's inability to use their terms consistently means that their RAW can potentially be misinterpreted if you try hard enough" issue.

I would be baffled if a DM actually used Necroticplague's ruling here, although I will grudgingly admit that he's probably right about the maximally pedantic RAW answer :P .

[Troacctid]

I think the DMG is pretty clear that metamagic spells are placed in items using the higher metamagic spell level, even for metamagics other than Heighten Spell.


Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. For example, a caster could heighten a spell’s level to increase its effectiveness, or quicken a spell to allow it to be used as a free action, placing it within an item at the higher metamagic level.

Level increases due to metamagic are also referred to in the text as "Changes to a spell's level."

[mabriss lethe]

If psionics are on the table, you can use feats to be able to target touch AC for both ranged and melee (but you'll have to reload your psychic focus after each use.) The Pyrokineticist (and Mind's Eye energy variants) can also target touch AC with only a 1 level dip using their fire lash ability, though it's pretty wonky since it's an iterative ranged touch attack that directly benefits from any feat that can be used in conjunction with a whip (ex: Power Attack)

[AvatarVecna]

I don't know why your DMs would have a problem with using a 21000 gp Extended Persisted Empowered Maximized Twinned Repeated Wand of Summon Monster IV to summon 4d2+20 Lantern Archons for 48 hours. Seriously, don't they know allowing things like that is part of D&D's ten commandments?

[Darrin]

Poison ring from Dragon Compendium lets you make touch attacks. Damage = 1, but if you're doing sneak attack you don't care. Light weapon, so no Power Attack.

Throwing a net is a ranged touch attach. But no damage without shenanigans of some sort.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you can easily become psionic, the Deep Impact feat lets you expend your psionic focus to make an attack against a target's touch AC.

Alternatively, if all you want is to use Power Attack more easily, take Shock Trooper to tank your AC instead of your to-hit. And invest in some sort of non-AC defenses like an item of Blink or something.

[J-H]

Spot The Weak Point skill trick, from Complete Scoundrel. Requires 12 spot, usable once per encounter.

[Andezzar]

I think the DMG is pretty clear that metamagic spells are placed in items using the higher metamagic spell level, even for metamagics other than Heighten Spell.



Level increases due to metamagic are also referred to in the text as "Changes to a spell's level."Yes, metamagic can change the spell level, and if it does, the spell is limited to the new level, but most metamagics do not change the spell level. Despite changing the spell slot required to cast a persistent spell, this metamagic does not change the spell level. Heighten spell on the other hand does increase the spell level.

If you were limited to making quickened wands of cantrips, what would you use?

[Troacctid]

Yes, metamagic can change the spell level, and if it does, the spell is limited to the new level, but most metamagics do not change the spell level. Despite changing the spell slot required to cast a persistent spell, this metamagic does not change the spell level. Heighten spell on the other hand does increase the spell level.

That's explicitly not what it's referring to in context.

Changes to [a spell's] level are cumulative. A silent, stilled version of charm person, for example, would be prepared and cast as a 3rd-level spell (a 1st-level spell, increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats).
Personally, I would be more likely to put quickened spells in other types of magic items besides wands.

[Andezzar]

Please give a source of your second quote. Also being prepared and cast as a X level spell, does not make the spell level X.

[Troacctid]

It's from the Player's Handbook.

[animewatcha]

I don't know why your DMs would have a problem with using a 21000 gp Extended Persisted Empowered Maximized Twinned Repeated Wand of Summon Monster IV to summon 4d2+20 Lantern Archons for 48 hours. Seriously, don't they know allowing things like that is part of D&D's ten commandments?

How could you forget Invisible? Invisible Extended Persisted empowered Maximized Twinned Repeated. Oh wait, what about Sanctum stuff of the above with Summon Monster V.

[Hiro Quester]

Making your weapon a brilliant energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) weapon (I always imagine it to look like a light saber) means it ignores nonliving material. So armor bonus and shield bonus don't count against it. Costs a +4 bonus, though.

The target's natural armor still counts, so it isn't quite targeting touch AC. But it's close. Identical to targeting touch AC for any creature without natural armor.

[Thurbane]

Not that it can be used with PA, but the Poison Ring in Dragon Compendium is a simple light weapon that (situationally) targets touch AC. Not sure if that can be exploited.

[meemaas]

Unless I'm much mistaken, it's possible to do with a good UMD check and a combination of Minor Schema of Metamagic Item and a Minor Schema of Wraith strike. Just be wary of dispels.