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Kurald Galain
2007-06-20, 09:43 AM
Well, I was browsing around and found the rules for the ongoing Living Greyhawk campaign.

Unsurprisingly, the setting bans a number of classes/feats/spells on account of cheese. However, somewhat surprising is the sheer amount of things that are "closed", or not available for player characters. I'm kind of wondering why all that stuff is sorted out and not available; surely not all of it appears to be cheese or out of setting. Could somebody enlighten me?

This includes the NPC classes (makes sense), Samurai/Ninja/Wu Jen (assumedly not applicable to the medieval setting) and Archivist (cheese), but also for some reason the Spellthief and Warlock.
There's about a hundred feats banned (most related to corruption or mutation), over half of the Cleric domains (perhaps everything that includes arcane spells??), about 150 spells (including the entire polymorph line and, for some reason, Destruction, Pro/Charm, Mass Resist Energy and something weird called Otyugh Swarm), and 60-70 prestige classes (but not the IotSV or SubChord).

The strangest section is the one on banned magical items. There's three total items that are banned: the nightstick (well duh) and for some reason completely beyond me, the potion and ring of shield. ???

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-20, 10:36 AM
Hmm... I seem to recall that the LGCS is drafted by a big multinational committee of mega-veteran DMs and commented on by the entire community, which might go some way towards explaining any idiosyncrasies.

Matthew
2007-06-23, 08:49 PM
Hmmn. I think some content is opened through tournament play and such. Not sure. I would think most of the closed stuff is closed with good reason. Shhalahr should probably know more.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-06-23, 09:00 PM
Where did you find this information on the LGCS? Was it a book? Was it online? If its the second could you please direct me to it because I am VERY interested in the Greyhawk campaign setting and would like to know more about it.

Gavin Sage
2007-06-23, 09:22 PM
I've never seen much in the way of official material that bans things. Mostly WoTC throw a "check with DM" into things. Sounds like someone doing a player campaign setting.

I would say that the Archivist tells a lot of it is ideological like the Eastern Classes. Though I haven't seen a detailed explanation I have yet to see what makes the class so broken/cheesed at a gameplay level. At an ideological level though it undermines the whole idea of divine magic by reducing it to just another skill. Given in D&D religion isn't very deep more often then not, but it does have a basic structure which the Archivist completely flips around. I could see very easily not allowing it any campaign setting with clerics.

Domains might be even similar in that there is a very specific pantheon, even of ideas. So you can't just pluck a domain which may not even have a specified god to it and use it. Are abstract clerics allowed, if not it would make sense?

Matthew
2007-06-23, 09:28 PM
Where did you find this information on the LGCS? Was it a book? Was it online? If its the second could you please direct me to it because I am VERY interested in the Greyhawk campaign setting and would like to know more about it.
Well, if you have never seen it before, a good deal of information is available here: Living Greyhawk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome). There are also bits and pieces of (A)D&D Greyhawk material bouncing around.

healbot42
2007-06-23, 10:18 PM
Well, I was browsing around and found the rules for the ongoing Living Greyhawk campaign.

Unsurprisingly, the setting bans a number of classes/feats/spells on account of cheese. However, somewhat surprising is the sheer amount of things that are "closed", or not available for player characters. I'm kind of wondering why all that stuff is sorted out and not available; surely not all of it appears to be cheese or out of setting. Could somebody enlighten me?

This includes the NPC classes (makes sense), Samurai/Ninja/Wu Jen (assumedly not applicable to the medieval setting) and Archivist (cheese), but also for some reason the Spellthief and Warlock.
There's about a hundred feats banned (most related to corruption or mutation), over half of the Cleric domains (perhaps everything that includes arcane spells??), about 150 spells (including the entire polymorph line and, for some reason, Destruction, Pro/Charm, Mass Resist Energy and something weird called Otyugh Swarm), and 60-70 prestige classes (but not the IotSV or SubChord).

The strangest section is the one on banned magical items. There's three total items that are banned: the nightstick (well duh) and for some reason completely beyond me, the potion and ring of shield. ???

A friend of mine claims to have been one of the veteran DMs who decided what to allow, and when I asked him (a few years ago) he told me it was because they were overpowered. From what I've seen that's pretty much true.

I think it isn't allowed beacause you cannot be a good warlock ( I think), and evil is not allowed for PCs. I can't say anything about the other things that weren't inclded, though.

Seems that I'm remembering rules that aren't real, but that's what you get when you post at a time that you should be sleeping.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-23, 10:26 PM
I love how Wizards has commoditized imagination.

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-23, 11:37 PM
Augh. It isn't a campaign setting, it's a campaign. The RPGA banning certain things in their games is no better or worse than them banning certain Magic cards in their tournaments, or an actual DM saying "No one can play as warlocks in my game, because I just hate the idea of the class."

Kurobara
2007-06-23, 11:48 PM
I think it isn't allowed beacause you cannot be a good warlock ( I think), and evil is not allowed for PCs. I can't say anything about the other things that weren't inclded, though.

I've read the class, the CA errata, and the FAQ, and there is absolutely nothing in any of them restricting the alignment of the warlock. It does say they tend towards chaotic and/or evil, but that they can be any alignment. (If there are any other errata-ish sources I've missed that do say so, someone point them out to me, please, but by all I've looked at, warlocks can be anything.)

Even if there were, the strictest I could imagine would be non-good like the hexblade, which still allows for non-evil as well, i.e. LN, N, CN.

The Eldritch Disciple PrC does require worshiping a chaotic or evil deity, though, but I see that as more of someone like Heironeous not really being the type to like warlocks than warlocks themselves not being able to be Lawful Good.

Kurald Galain
2007-06-24, 02:43 AM
A friend of mine claims to have been one of the veteran DMs who decided what to allow, and when I asked him (a few years ago) he told me it was because they were overpowered. From what I've seen that's pretty much true.

Yeah, I get the restrictions against evil, but could you please explain to me in what particular fashion a potion of shield is considered overpowered?

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-24, 02:50 AM
You can't have a potion of shield because one cannot be made by RAW.


by SRD:
Shield
Range: Personal
Target: You

Brew Potion
[. . .]that targets one or more creatures. [. . .]

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-24, 04:13 PM
Augh. It isn't a campaign setting, it's a campaign. The RPGA banning certain things in their games is no better or worse than them banning certain Magic cards in their tournaments, or an actual DM saying "No one can play as warlocks in my game, because I just hate the idea of the class."

Yeah, that's precisely what turns me off about it; they've turned D&D into Magic. Blargh.

That's something I can't stand about Magic. They make an expansion with cards that totally trump older cards, forcing you to buy the new cards. Combine this with the fact that they ban or limit all the older cards that can stand against the new stuff (terror, force of will, lightning bolt), and if you ever want a turney legal deck that can when, you have to be constantly buying.

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-24, 04:22 PM
Magic's constant expansions are really all about selling you sealed deck tournament entries and nothing else. The card limiting is because as they are constantly creating entirely new sets that are built around sealed deck tournaments, old cards create entirely overpowered synergies (in effect when playing in the type 2 tournament or w/e), and banning cards they just came out with seems silly when you're trying to sell as many boosters as you can ASAP, no?

And not to say this is a bad thing. Sealed deck tournaments are awesome if you have the 20$s or w/e to drop in a weekend. (and are also a staple of you're local hobby store w/ gaming space more than likely)