Wizard 20 vs any noncaster 20 in cursed magic world

[Belial_the_Leveler]

In this world all spellcasters are cursed to;

1) Only be able to regain spell slots once per 24 hours (like clerics), and only in the material plane.
2) Producing a beneficial effect via magic, even indirectly, still has a spell slot cost and still requires you to expend any other costs it would normally have if it were a spell. No foisting the cost of magic on others or otherwise avoiding it.
2b) Consumable items and items with charges cannot contain effects that would have significant costs other than spell slots.
3) Metamagic spells that would normally exceed the maximum spell level a caster can cast cost an additional spell slot for every 2 spell levels they would normally be above that limit, rounded up. I.e. a persistent 9th level spell would expend four 9th level slots to cast because it would effectively be a 15th level effect, even if the caster avoided the spell level increase of metamagic somehow.
4) Crafting items requires either personally paying the XP cost and half the GP cost, or the full GP cost. No exceptions.



In this world, could a non-spellcasting character defeat a 20th level caster?

[Jack_Simth]

Depends on optimization level on both sides, the relative optimization level between the sides, foreknowledge on both sides, the relative foreknowledge between the sides, how one defines "defeat", and the actual encounter scenario. Exactly the same as with any other similar question.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Easily.

Even with these resrictions, the caster is -much- more capable of keeping track of his non-caster foe and avoiding him while he sends wave after wave of conjured, raised, and dominated minions to kill him than the non-caster is of finding and pinning down the caster long enough to kill him.

If the caster was one of the rare few foolish enough to be a focused specialist that banned conjuration, necromancy, and enchantment, it'd -still- be a hell of a tough row to hoe for the non-caster. Buff and attack spells are generally more powerful and efficient than anything a non-caster can swing about, save uber-charging. Dim-door to a safe distance, stack up iron-guard, a few AC spells, displacement, and polymoprh into a 12 headed hydra then shred the poor bastard. Overland flight is a given for any wizard in the field to have up and, if you're feeling particularly gishy or vicious, contingent tenser's transformation keyed to polymorphing into a 12 headed hydra.

It's not entirely impossible for a non-caster to kill a caster, if the circumstances are arranged to be just so, but a caster that knows he has an enemy, much less that knows an enemy is coming, is utterly insurmountable for any non-caster.

You don't challenge a wizard to a duel unless you're another T1 or you're suicidal.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Any optimization that could be done during any campaign. I.e. that doesn't require elements under the GM's control; prolonged downtime, monsters you face, NPCs you meet.

Defeat means forcing to retreat and rest, or killing, or forcing to expend more resources (treasure and XP) in the fight than they gain.


Encounter scenario is random encounter. The wizard can flee, observe with divinations, then attack again but it counts as a loss if he needs to rest.

[MisterKaws]

Ehh, those are mostly normal restrictions in my campaigns, though any mundane created by me has being able to go toe-on-toe against a caster as a requirement. This is valid even for NPCs; I've also created some dragon-slaying commoners just in case some magic hobo tries to wreck havoc at one of my taverns.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Any optimization that could be done during any campaign. I.e. that doesn't require elements under the GM's control; prolonged downtime, monsters you face, NPCs you meet.

Defeat means forcing to retreat and rest, or killing, or forcing to expend more resources (treasure and XP) in the fight than they gain.


Encounter scenario is random encounter. The wizard can flee, observe with divinations, then attack again but it counts as a loss if he needs to rest.

Arbitrary win conditions to the rescue!!

Now answer me this, what's the non-caster going to do about the dim-door back, buff up, and charge routine I described? A safe distance doesn't necessarily mean away from the fight, just far enough away to get off a few buff spells unmolested while the non-caster closes the gap.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Buff and attack spells are generally more powerful and efficient than anything a non-caster can swing about
Pierce magical protection: single hit and any magic increasing AC goes bye-bye. Forcing the shapechanged wizard back into wrinkly old man form is always fun.


wave after wave of conjured, raised, and dominated minions
That can work, if you make enough of them. Careful not to fall short and give the noncaster a chance to capture, break the domination, and ally with them.


Now answer me this, what's the non-caster going to do about the dim-door back, buff up, and charge routine I described? A safe distance doesn't necessarily mean away from the fight, just far enough away to get off a few buff spells unmolested while the non-caster closes the gap.
Why would he close the distance? He moves a couple hundred feet from his original position and waits your buffs to run out. You either need to expend more spell slots to find him and get within range (since you 'ported beyond line-of-sight distance) to force the fight, or the fight doesn't happen and you're several spell slots down against your next challenge without gain.


Arbitrary win conditions to the rescue!!
Are they unreasonable? Game rules say 4-5 encounters a day so you don't get days of downtime per encounter. Also, winning an encounter doesn't mean killing the enemy - forcing them to retreat also works according to the rules. And if the wizard expends more GP and XP to "win" an encounter than they gain, what exactly are they winning?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Pierce magical protection: single hit and any magic increasing AC goes bye-bye. Forcing the shapechanged wizard back into wrinkly old man form is always fun.

Being polymorphed doesn't grant an AC bonus. Being a hydra does. You also have to actually -hit- the caster. You have to deliver that as a special attack that takes a standard action to make while twelve heads of death are raining down on you, provided you even got in range without being tripped. You also have to have a non-metal weapon. Remember greater iron guard?



That can work, if you make enough of them. Careful not to fall short and give the noncaster a chance to capture, break the domination, and ally with them.

Undead don't switch sides outside of certain magical effects and called creatures don't switch sides at all. How is your non-caster going to deal with a Solar? or even a planetar?



Why would he close the distance? He moves a couple hundred feet from his original position and waits your buffs to run out. You either need to expend more spell slots to find him and get within range (since you 'ported beyond line-of-sight distance) to force the fight, or the fight doesn't happen and you're several spell slots down against your next challenge without gain.

You said outside of line of sight. I didn't. A couple hundred feet takes several rounds to cover and the wizard can close when he's done buffing if the non-caster is dumb enough to wait for him to finish buffing.



Are they unreasonable? Game rules say 4-5 encounters a day so you don't get days of downtime per encounter. Also, winning an encounter doesn't mean killing the enemy - forcing them to retreat also works according to the rules. And if the wizard expends more GP and XP to "win" an encounter than they gain, what exactly are they winning?

If it's a PC wizard, surviving the encounter is worth at least partial XP. If it's not, that guideline doesn't apply and forcing a retreat means you're going to get -shredded- when he returns, ready for a fight. It's a kill or be killed kinda world when you're an adventurer. Sure you get XP for running him off, provided he fought back at all first, but he's going to come back and kill you and there's nothing you can do about it unless he sends someone to do it for him because he can't be bothered to do it personally and you can't find him to kill him anymore.

[AvatarVecna]

In this world all spellcasters are cursed to;

1) Only be able to regain spell slots once per 24 hours (like clerics), and only in the material plane.

You mean, like most casters do anyway? Okay


2) Producing a beneficial effect via magic, even indirectly, still has a spell slot cost and still requires you to expend any other costs it would normally have if it were a spell. No foisting the cost of magic on others or otherwise avoiding it.

You mean, like most casters do anyway? Okay.


2b) Consumable items and items with charges cannot contain effects that would have significant costs other than spell slots.

So, if a spell has an XP/GP cost normally, it can't be in a wand or scroll? Okay, but that's pretty normal, anyway, and the only RAW exceptions are sample wands and the like straight out of the DMG, but okay no wands of Stoneskin for me.


3) Metamagic spells that would normally exceed the maximum spell level a caster can cast cost an additional spell slot for every 2 spell levels they would normally be above that limit, rounded up. I.e. a persistent 9th level spell would expend four 9th level slots to cast because it would effectively be a 15th level effect, even if the caster avoided the spell level increase of metamagic somehow.

"I have a great idea for making a caster vs non-caster fight easier on the non-caster!"

"Oh really? What is it?"

"Give the casters a ramped up, lower-cost version of the Versatile Spellcaster feat...for free!"

"Fascinating. And this can be used to cast spells higher than 9th level pre-epic?"

"Well of course! In fact, that's my best example for explaining the rule."

"PURE GENIUS."


4) Crafting items requires either personally paying the XP cost and half the GP cost, or the full GP cost. No exceptions.

You mean, like most casters do anyway? Okay.


In this world, could a non-spellcasting character defeat a 20th level caster?

I'll see if I can come up with a build that somehow manages to wreck mundanes despite these limitations.

[MisterKaws]

"I have a great idea for making a caster vs non-caster fight easier on the non-caster!"

"Oh really? What is it?"

"Give the casters a ramped up, lower-cost version of the Versatile Spellcaster feat...for free!"

"Fascinating. And this can be used to cast spells higher than 9th level pre-epic?"

"Well of course! In fact, that's my best example for explaining the rule."

"PURE GENIUS."


Eh... I think what he actually means is that, even if you cast a Twinned Maximized Admixtured Fire Orb or any other spell, reduced to level 9 by the usual shenanigans, you will still be FORCED to pay the spell as if using a Versatile Spellcaster, even though the costs were originally reduced.

[AvatarVecna]

Eh... I think what he actually means is that, even if you cast a Twinned Maximized Admixtured Fire Orb or any other spell, reduced to level 9 by the usual shenanigans, you will still be FORCED to pay the spell as if using a Versatile Spellcaster, even though the costs were originally reduced.

Except metamagic reduction is a method of avoiding the cost of magic, which falls under rule 2. Rule 3 doesn't say "you expend multiple spell slots to cast a spell of that level, even though metamagic reduction made it something you can cast", it says "if you try to cast a spell of a level you can't cast, you can expend multiple spell slots to cast it". That's not reducing capabilities, that's adding them: the ability to cast higher-level slots with lower-level spells is not an ability casters normally possess, and the ways of gaining such an ability are hard to come by...and we were just flat-out given them.

Unless, for some odd reason, the OP actually intended for rule 3 to be the "in case you used metamagic reduction, you still have to pay for the slot it would take up in a way that casters couldn't normally pay for it, so I've given you a way to pay for it", which seems like a rather poor plan, since cutting off access to metamagic reduction (which I read rule 2 as doing) does more to stop the more ridiculous caster shenanigans than anything else here. But hey, if the OP is fine with metamagic reduction and using 9th lvl spells to cast a 15th lvl spell, I'm totally fine with that...it just seemed to be against the idea of the thread and the wording of the rules.

[Troacctid]

None of these "curses" represent meaningful limits on a Wizard's power. Most Wizards don't care about them at all.

[AvatarVecna]

Race: Venerable Fire Elf
Class: Wizard 20 (Elf Wizard Racial ACF 1 and 3; Spontaneous Divination)
Stats (pre-adjustment): 12/8/16/18/9/9
Stats (post-adj., lvl 1): 6/4/8/23/12/10
Stats (lvl 20, pre-items): 6/6/6/28/14/10
Feats: Collegiate Wizard (ECL 1); Nymph's Kiss (Flaw); Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Flaw); Scribe Scroll (Wizard 1); Insightful Reflexes (ECL 3); Extend Spell (Wizard 5); Keen Intellect (ECL 6); Knowledge Devotion (ECL 9); Twin Spell (Wizard 10); Persistent Spell (ECL 12); Maximize Spell (ECL 15); Widen Spell (Wizard 15); Quicken Spell (ECL 18); Wizard 20 feat given up for Spontaneous Divination
Items: Tome of Clear Thought +4 (110000); Headband of Intellect +6 (36000); Boccob's Blessed Book (?); Ring of Wizardry I/II/III/IV (360000)Spells in Spellbook
1st lvl (17)
Alarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alarm.htm)
Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm)
Protection From Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm)
Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm)
Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm)
Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm)
Identify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm)
Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm)
Burning Hands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/burningHands.htm)
Floating Disk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/floatingDisk.htm)
Color Spray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm)
Disguise Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm)
Silent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm)
Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm)
Expeditious Retreat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/expeditiousRetreat.htm)
Feather Fall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherFall.htm)
Wraithstrike
2nd lvl (9)
Protection from Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm)
Acid Arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm)
Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm)
Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm)
Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm)
Minor Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorImage.htm)
Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm)
Knock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/knock.htm)
Spider Climb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiderClimb.htm)
3rd lvl (9)
Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm)
Stinking Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stinkingCloud.htm)
Fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm)
Displacement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/displacement.htm)
Vampiric Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vampiricTouch.htm)
Blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm)
Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm)
Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm)
Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm)
4th lvl (9)
Dimensional Anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm)
Black Tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm)
Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm)
Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm)
Wall of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfFire.htm)
Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm)
Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm)
Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)
Celerity
5th lvl (9)
Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm)
Cloudkill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm)
Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm)
Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm)
Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm)
Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm)
Overland Flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm)
Telekinesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm)
Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm)
6th lvl (9)
Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm)
Guards and Wards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guardsAndWards.htm)
Summon Monster VI (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVI.htm)
Legend Lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm)
True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm)
Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm)
Circle of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/circleOfDeath.htm)
Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm)
Control Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWater.htm)
7th lvl (9)
Mage's Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm)
Plane Shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm)
Summon Monster VII (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm)
Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm)
Greater Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSightGreater.htm)
Forcecage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm)
Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm)
Control Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm)
Reverse Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm)
8th lvl (9)
Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm)
Incendiary Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/incendiaryCloud.htm)
Greater Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm)
Summon Monster VIII (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVIII.htm)
Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm)
Greater Prying Eyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pryingEyesGreater.htm)
Irresistible Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm)
Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm)
Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm)
9th lvl (9)
Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm)
Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)
Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm)
Dominate Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominateMonster.htm)
Power Word Kill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm)
Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm)
Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm)
Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm)
Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)


Prepared Spells To be determinedComing soon, but pretty predictible: scry from undetectable/unfindable/unenterable location, teleport from within Time Stop, set up damaging BFC, render self undetectable, attack directly if necessary.

[InvisibleBison]

You said outside of line of sight. I didn't. A couple hundred feet takes several rounds to cover and the wizard can close when he's done buffing if the non-caster is dumb enough to wait for him to finish buffing.

A minor point, but a couple hundred feet doesn't take a huge amount of time to cover. An unencumbered human can run that distance in a couple rounds, and a potion of expeditious retreat probably lets them run the whole distance in one round, or at least get into charging range.

[ben-zayb]

You realize that this doesn't necessarily make the spells less potent, only less prone to abuse, right? You still have quest-shortcuts with stuff like Ice Assassin, Time Stop, Shapechange, Discern Location, and Gate.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A minor point, but a couple hundred feet doesn't take a huge amount of time to cover. An unencumbered human can run that distance in a couple rounds, and a potion of expeditious retreat probably lets them run the whole distance in one round, or at least get into charging range.

A few rounds is -huge- in a fight.

With expeditious retreat an unencumbered human can cover 240ft with a run action if there's clear and unobstructed terrain, or open air when flying.

A dim-door can carry you to a distance of 680ft at minimum. That's two run actions, a double move, and a charge -or- 3 run actions if the wizard was immediately adjacent to the non-caster when he cast the spell. Either way that's an attack on the fourth turn of the non-caster after the wizard backs away. The extra 50ft to make that the non-caster's fifth turn was over half his career ago.

The only reason not to back off any further is because it would start getting difficult to keep track of his soon-to-be victim.

[atemu1234]

Honestly, a buffed Force Missile Mage can take down any noncaster, it's not a high bar.

[dextercorvia]

A minor point, but a couple hundred feet doesn't take a huge amount of time to cover. An unencumbered human can run that distance in a couple rounds, and a potion of expeditious retreat probably lets them run the whole distance in one round, or at least get into charging range.

Except, according to the OPs own rules, since the potion produces a spell effect, it only works if the non-caster expends an appropriate spell slot, which he doesn't have. That's right. The non-casters have zero access to spell effects through items thanks to Curse 2 (a).

[ben-zayb]

Except, according to the OPs own rules, since the potion produces a spell effect, it only works if the non-caster expends an appropriate spell slot, which he doesn't have. That's right. The non-casters have zero access to spell effects through items thanks to Curse 2 (a).

The curse was stated to affect "all spellcasters", although you can make the case that "it doesn't state that noncasters are not affected".

[dextercorvia]

The curse was stated to affect "all spellcasters", although you can make the case that "it doesn't state that noncasters are not affected".

Huh, I read that too fast and thought it applied to everyone.

In that case, it is clear that the non-caster can win by wish abuse from items, since they can actually use Zodar wishes, etc, while the Caster has to pay for them.

[Godskook]

1) Only be able to regain spell slots once per 24 hours (like clerics), and only in the material plane.

Not a relevantly notable restriction. You nerf a few spells and magic items, but nothing the Wizard's power-level is actually measured against.


2) Producing a beneficial effect via magic, even indirectly, still has a spell slot cost and still requires you to expend any other costs it would normally have if it were a spell. No foisting the cost of magic on others or otherwise avoiding it.

Its not clear what you mean by this. Strictest readings hurt the non-caster most, unless this rule doesn't apply to them, which is contrary to the narrative you put in around this ruleset.

Assuming the....sanest interpretation(that magic items don't require spell slots, and that you're mostly doing this to close abuse things like calling solars to cast for you), this still doesn't do anything to close the gap between casters and non-casters. It does close the gap between casters, though.


2b) Consumable items and items with charges cannot contain effects that would have significant costs other than spell slots.

Nerfs the non-caster more than the caster, assuming it applies to both equally(which it should, since you're describing -global- effects).


3) Metamagic spells that would normally exceed the maximum spell level a caster can cast cost an additional spell slot for every 2 spell levels they would normally be above that limit, rounded up. I.e. a persistent 9th level spell would expend four 9th level slots to cast because it would effectively be a 15th level effect, even if the caster avoided the spell level increase of metamagic somehow.

This would only be a problem if this wasn't a duel. A split, twinned, empowered, maximized ennervation can be cast several times(assuming you can burn higher level spells for this cost, like normal) in this hypothetical duel. You only need to hit twice, against touch AC.

If we stick to metamagics that are only +5, but mitigated, Ennervation means we only need to hit touch AC 4 times to murder this dude.


4) Crafting items requires either personally paying the XP cost and half the GP cost, or the full GP cost. No exceptions.

Irrelevant, really. Most of these threads assume this as a default anyway, outside a few rare tricks, such as crafting golems.


In this world, could a non-spellcasting character defeat a 20th level caster?

You haven't really lowered the baseline power level of a 20th level caster, so no, no more than usual.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Well, the point of the curse in-setting was that an Epic Archmage saw the difference between casters and noncasters as a social injustice and tried to fix the most blatant abuses of magical power, especially when casters sidestepped the cost of magic. He didn't quite succeed but caused a lot of people to try to either continue his work, or counter it in some way.

The first point was that casters couldn't regain their magic in a safe extraplanar fortress, or abuse other planes for too long.
The second point was that casters couldn't easily abuse the powers of magical creatures to their benefit.
The third point was that the upper limits of what casters could do could not be easily sidestepped.
The fourth point was that casters couldn't gain infinite magical wealth, though mundane wealth was still fair game.



I wanted to see whether a 20th level noncaster could, under these circumstances, fight casters and win if they planned well enough.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, the point of the curse in-setting was that an Epic Archmage saw the difference between casters and noncasters as a social injustice and tried to fix the most blatant abuses of magical power, especially when casters sidestepped the cost of magic. He didn't quite succeed but caused a lot of people to try to either continue his work, or counter it in some way.

The first point was that casters couldn't regain their magic in a safe extraplanar fortress, or abuse other planes for too long.
The second point was that casters couldn't easily abuse the powers of magical creatures to their benefit.
The third point was that the upper limits of what casters could do could not be easily sidestepped.
The fourth point was that casters couldn't gain infinite magical wealth, though mundane wealth was still fair game.



I wanted to see whether a 20th level noncaster could, under these circumstances, fight casters and win if they planned well enough.

Sweet gods the irony.

A spell that covers the entire multiverse could only work by binding a god like mystra who could, in turn, simply remove it from themselves.

Even if you could pick the right seeds to make an epic spell that covers all of reality, there's no way in hell you're mitigating that into doable without being just plain cheessy.

This is almost funny. Almost.

[Tuvarkz]

The thing is, as most have said, none of these rules really inconvenience Wizards enough. However, I'd consider that 3.5's ToB/PF's PoW initiators might just stand a decent chance with the proper build, considering how counters are just as able to challenge the action economy of a Wizard that is high level enough to spam quickened spells each round.

[ace rooster]

A minor point, but a couple hundred feet doesn't take a huge amount of time to cover. An unencumbered human can run that distance in a couple rounds, and a potion of expeditious retreat probably lets them run the whole distance in one round, or at least get into charging range.

expeditious retreat is personal range, so can't be a potions. Even then, you would still not be catching a wizard on a phantom steed who has a base speed of 240'.

Preventing extra-planar resting is good, but you still have to deal with permanent prismatic spheres inside fortresses filled with symbols. Wizards can still be pretty safe.

As far as I can see, the only way this is going to end up remotely possible is with piles of items specific to the occasion, and a confined important location to nulify the mage's absurd mobility advantage. Unfortunately this puts you in disjunction range, followed up by a quickened wall. Maybe a time stop. Maybe a quickened DA and force cage. Lots of tactics that need answers.

A non caster might be able to drive a caster off an objective, but defeating them is another matter entirely.

[Eloel]

Unless you can abuse IHS to be able to "get rid of caster because he's mean and that hurts my feelings", very, very, very easily.