Obsidian and Paradox's new joint title: Tyranny

[Malistrae]

So, I saw nobody made a thread about this yet (as far as the search function revealed).
You can watch the teaser here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc-WqIRNDKY
The game's site also has some screenshots and some world information.
I am actually pretty excited for this title. PoE was OK, but Tyranny seems geared for the bad guy. I am getting some inquisitor vibes from it, since we are acting as roaming officers charged with judging and executing stuff. And we serve the Evil Overlord who conquered the world. I always relish games that make the PC villainous from the start (instead of adding Evil options on the side that ultimately don't really impact the heroic plot) .
However, this population mechanic seems like the most interesting bit. The player can apparently influence the status of the general population within specific areas. This looks like tons of fun to me. I am hopeful that I can be a hanging judge and decimate unruly populations.

[Sannom]

How about a little more content for this?

First, the official blog (https://blog.tyrannygame.com), on which you will find developer diaries about the gameplay and lore, and some short stories.

Second, the E3 Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laeGyfapAMI).

Third, direct links to the various developer diaries :
#1 - The Vision for Tyranny (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/04/21/dev-diary-1-the-vision-of-tyranny/)
#2 - The Basic Game Systems (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/05/04/dev-diary-2-the-basic-game-systems/)
#3 - Fatebinder (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/05/25/dev-diary-3-fatebinder/) (the role of your character inside Kyros' Empire)
#4 - Archons (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/06/08/dev-diary-4-archons/) (beings of great power, many of whom serve Kyros)
#5 - Combat (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/06/29/dev-diary-5-combat/)
#6 - Barik (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/07/13/dev-diary-6-barik/) (the presentation of one possible companion)

Fourth, direct links to the short stories :
#1 - Under New Management (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/05/06/under-new-management/), a short story about a small Scarlet Chorus (one of the Overlord's armies, which functions like a reaving party most of the time).
#2 - Commission (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/06/03/commission/), a short story centered on a recruit of The Disafavored, one of Kyros' elite armies.
#3 - The Archon's Voice (https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/07/08/the-archons-voice/), which gives us our first in-universe glimpse of an Archon, in this case the Archon of Secrets, called the Voices of Nerat.

[Sannom]

Another dev diary about a companion, this time Verse of the Scarlet Chorus :

https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/07/27/dev-diary-7-verse/

[Sannom]

And another short story, this time focused on Barik (one possible companion) and featuring Graven Ashe, the Archon of War (those guys are really starting to sound like they're the gods of the setting) :

https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/08/05/trial-by-iron/

[Sannom]

And yet another dev diary about a companion, this time the Sage Lantry :

https://blog.tyrannygame.com/2016/08/10/dev-diary-8-lantry/


An interview of the writing team by Game Revolution :

http://www.gamerevolution.com/features/interview-writers-for-obsidians-tyranny-on-evil-and-surviving-a-tyrannical-world


An interview of the game director by Gamebanshee :

http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/117654-tyranny-interview.html


A presentation of the Scarlet Chorus (one of the factions) by Gamespot :

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/pillars-of-eternity-devs-pc-exclusive-tyranny-reve/1100-6442531/

[Sannom]

The game will come out on November 10. It's available in three different editions and you can preorder it on Steam and GOG right now. Here is the pre-order trailer :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LGj3TpEBZ8

[JadedDM]

I'm wondering, though, do you have to be evil in this game? Are there options to be good at all?

[Rodin]

I'm wondering, though, do you have to be evil in this game? Are there options to be good at all?

As I understand what I've read of it, you can be good but idealism is discouraged. For example, if you go into the store and find your favorite merchant being blackmailed by the local syndicate, in most games you'd go in and bust heads, the merchant thanks you, cake and ice cream all around. In this game, doing so might get the merchant pissed at you, because now the crime boss is pissed at the merchant and he has to live there. You would then have to go and deal with the crime boss, which might mean making an unsavory deal. If you don't want to make that deal, you can bring the hammer down and murder the whole lot of them...but now the local populace is terrified of the brutal police force that just executed a load of their family members who were just in the gang because they have dental.

And unlike, well, every game out there, the rewards for being evil aren't significantly worse than the rewards for being good. For some quests, being an utter bastard might make it a lot easier.

The premise is really interesting and the setting looks quite different. It looks like it's going to have a standard real-time pause party combat system which I have never been fond of, but I might just try setting the difficulty to "Story Mode" for once and just playing through that way. I'm definitely going to give it a try either way - a game that sets out to make being evil make sense is something that I don't think I've seen before.

[Spore]

I was pretty unimpressed at first but I think the concept of "reasonably evil" has really warmed up with me. You are bound to evil choices by a superior godlike being but which one is the smarter choice? Which one brings the least death and destruction? Which one appeals to you more? Can you really risk going soft? Survivors can be your deadliest enemies. So while killing everyone in a giant fireball might not be the smartest thing to do it may benefit you in the future. Maybe having the reputation of being a vicious killer ruins your chances at diplomacy and spawns more brutality.

I like that you cannot play the game from a pure non-shifting philosophical standpoint but you actually have to deal with reality as well.

[Morty]

This game looks quite interesting. Mechanically, it seems a bog-standard RPG, but the concept, setting and atmosphere are potentially quite fresh. I'll try it sooner or later.

Also, the lore pop-ups in dialogue I've seen are ingenious in their simplicity. I wish they'd thought of that for Pillars of Eternity, which can sometimes overwhelm you with all the lore, names and terms.

[Sannom]

I'm wondering, though, do you have to be evil in this game? Are there options to be good at all?
It seems hard. I mean, during the Conquest, you almost always have to choose between the Scarlet Chorus and the Disfavored and neither are good people. And when there is a third option, it's a "Kyros" option that is usually just worse than the others, even if it's generally more efficient.

That prisoner in the early part of the game? It's a choice between having him executed or sent to a fate worse than death. No third path. No ability to call rank and set him free. You only choose who gets their way between the Scarlet Chorus and the Disfavored.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm wondering, though, do you have to be evil in this game? Are there options to be good at all?

Isn't that sort of defeating the entire point, though? Like trying to be play good in DungeonKeeper or War for the Overworld?




Personally, I'm looking forward to, if not absolute moustche twirlinglt-Lawful Evil-ness, at least good old fashinoed proper Lawful Evilness.



Though I'll admit, I was more psyched about the game before I read they'd dropped it back to four-character parties and classless (given that I really liked Pillars of Eternity). I'll probably pre-order it, like the day before (which is nearly like bying it on the day, plus a couple of extras, and Obsidian and Paradox have earned enough faith I'm prepared to "buy before waiting for lots of reviews"; probably won't PLAY it properly for a while, mind! Both PoE and Paradox stuff in general is teaching me "buy when on sale (usually at release of New Thing)/at release, wait 2-3 weeks/3-4 months for them to patch/hotfix/balance...!"

[mollylayne]

Thanks for the wonderful Information..

[Morty]

I'm glad that they dropped classes, but I worry that they reduced the variety of weapons Pillars of Eternity has. No single-weapon style, for one. Still, they added a thrown weapon style, which doesn't get enough appreciation. I'm going to play this game sooner or later, so I'll just see for myself.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Having just taken a look at the first little bit with character creation and stuff...wow! I like how this game immerses you right from the start! :smallbiggrin:

[Inarius]

Having just taken a look at the first little bit with character creation and stuff...wow! I like how this game immerses you right from the start! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I took an hour or so just fiddling with the creation process, going through all the campaign options. The campaign options expand on the lore pretty well to set you up for the start of the game. Then I got into the game and realized there's a spell crafting system and talent trees and a whole bunch of other further customization options for your characters as you level... That being said the combat feels a little unsatisfying so far. Maybe itll spice up later on, but even if it doesn't the setting itself seems like its going to be well worth the playthrough.

[Rodin]

I've played a fair bit already. I don't have any comments on the combat because I've got the difficulty set to story mode - I've never been a big fan of the real-time pause and while this seems like a well-implemented version of that it doesn't interest me. I basically steamroll every fight by only controlling my character and letting the AI handle the rest. I will say that party combo attacks are amazing.

What is interesting to me is the world. There's obviously a lot of different paths you can take, just from the huge choices I've been offered. I've had options to straight up murder 3 of my party members rather than take them on. Choices on which faction to support that have major ramifications. Choices to say "screw ALL you people, I'm going rogue".

I'm finding it all a lot more interesting than what I saw of Pillars of Eternity, which had some interesting ideas bolted onto a bog-standard fantasy boilerplate. Not playing a hero out to save the world makes the plot all the more fascinating. I think it's going to be very possible to have an agenda in this one, which is super rare in RPGs.

It is dark though. There's been quite a few occasions where I've wanted to be merciful, and been turned down either by my allies or by my enemies...and the failure to be merciful then echoes down the line as the next set were friends with the guys who just got killed, etc. Playing something more light-hearted between play sessions may be necessary - I refilled the puppies and rainbows in my soul with Zelda.

[houlio]

I am not totally convinced on the mechanics (besides the combo attacks, it's like reliving Chrono Trigger days), but the story is so awesome. I've loved all the ways the game has so far given me to resolve quest lines.

[Sian]

I really, really would love to like these kind of games much more, but I'm willing to wager that, just as with Pillars, Dragon Age, or earlier variants such as Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Nights, I'm going to be utterly unable to submerge myself deep enough into the history to care.

Probably a bit to perfectionistic when it comes to getting the best result (for a certain measure of 'best result' depending on what my specific goal is).

I have no major problems with linear games with levels, and i have no problems with complete sandboxes where you have all the time in the world (no matter how much the game tells you that you really should continue your bloody mission instead of using several hours in the arcade next to the murder alley), but I've always found this sort of Semi-open sandbox with explicit timers and some content more gated than others, some softer than others, to fit me like a foot in a glove.

[Malistrae]

It seems my thread got revived without me noticing, :).

Anyway, I also started playing Tyranny, and so far, I found it pretty nifty. I fiddled a lot with the conquest options at the beginning. Gameplay is nice. I like the spell crafting system, but I would say PoE had a more complex gameplay overall. I do not think it detracts from the overall game, since the branching story is really good, and I am total fanboy for being able to make meaningful choices. I especially loved that my conquest decisions did manifest in the actual game.

I also love the moral ambiguity of the whole thing, especially when it comes to the two armies of Kyros you have a lot of contact with in the early parts of the game, the Disfavored and the Scarlet Chorus. Here's a short summary for those who are interested:

The Disfavored are the Lawful Evil guys. Though small in number, they are highly trained, well-equipped and exceptionally disciplined. They are fanatically loyal to their Archon of War and frequently demonstrate excellent tactics and a reverence towards order. They take fierce pride in their army, being honorable and treating each other as family (the Archon knows the name of every soldier and mourns every death, for instance). However, if you think they are a Lighter Shade of Black (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ALighterShadeOfBlack), you are sorely mistaken. They are incredibly racist and elitist, considering themselves leagues above of everyone else (except Kyros the Overlord, obviously). They exclusively recruit from select Northern bloodlines and refuse entry to everyone else, even if they demonstrate their competence. This exclusivity extends even to the most basic things, like refusing to share barracks or provisions with another army or having sexual relations outside of the Disfavored. Furthermore, their training is monomaniacally focused on war and nothing else, turning them into obedient drones. Their policy towards prisoners of war (summary execution) and civilians (slavery) are also pretty ugly. And despite their supposed tactical brilliance, their weird code of honor causes them to commit incredibly impractical actions.

The Scarlet Chorus are the Chaotic Evil guys. A horde of murderes, rapists and criminals with poor equipment. They are extremely disorganized (their basic formation being ad hoc gangs held together by the gangbosses' will), and have little loyalty to each other or to their Archon of Secrets (who apparently loves the chaotic infighting in his army). In battles, the Scarlet Chorus relies on their overwhelming numbers and blood-frenzy to defeat their enemies, caring little for their losses. However, the Scarlet Chorus practices Equal-Opportunity Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EqualOpportunityEvil), in sharp contrast to the Disfavored. It doesn't matter who you are or what is your past, if you survive the initiation (typically fighting other recruits to death), you are in, no questions asked. This often results in the Chorus being much more merciful than the Disfavored (since you can't recruit dead people!). Don't like your gangboss' tone? If you can kill him, you can take his place (provided you are strong enough to hold it, of course). Unlike the Disfavored, the Scarlet Chorus members are lively and individualistic (which makes them excellent saboteurs, independent operatives, etc.). They revel in both traditional hedonistic pursuits, and the carnage of battle. They are true hedonists, only caring about having a good run. And despite their society resembling the Abyss of D&D, they do form friendships and romances. Strained relationships, sure, but they are there.

Personally, I very much favor the Chorus. I came to dislike the racist, exclusive Disfavored with their inefficient sense of "honor". Sure, the Chorus is insane, harsh and pretty nightmarish. But they are on a much, much longer leash than the Disfavored. If you have to be a slave, at least you should try to enjoy your life as much as possible. And the Chorus is a true meritocracy: the strong and talented rise to the top, the weak and incompetent suffer for their mediocrity. That is a very just system, if a brutal one (I like the Dark Eldar and the Sith for the same reason). But you can't make an omelette without torturing some eggs to death, after all...

(Edit: Not to mention that I think (I am still in the early parts of the game) the Disfavored are pretty much doomed on the long run, due to their small numbers and extreme difficulty in replacing losses. No sense in backing the losing side, obviously.)

[houlio]

Interesting, I ended up favoring neither. Both in my book seem not only far too incompetent, but their tactics also actively endanger the Overlord's Peace. I sided with the Disfavored for awhile (because they seemed to offer the most expedient solutions to most things), but eventually I just couldn't stand their management of things.

[Malistrae]

Interesting, I ended up favoring neither. Both in my book seem not only far too incompetent, but their tactics also actively endanger the Overlord's Peace. I sided with the Disfavored for awhile (because they seemed to offer the most expedient solutions to most things), but eventually I just couldn't stand their management of things.
Yes, the Disfavored suffer from the chronic deficiency of trying to act pragmatically, but their weird customs and traditions keep getting in the way. And I think the Voices of Nerath are(?) way more charismatic than Graven Ashe (who I am convinced is a latent traitor like Cairn was). Still, an army that combined the best of both worlds (the meritocratic equality of the Chorus and the discipline of the Disfavored) would probably be more efficient than either of them.

[houlio]

Yes, the Disfavored suffer from the chronic deficiency of trying to act pragmatically, but their weird customs and traditions keep getting in the way. And I think the Voices of Nerath are(?) way more charismatic than Graven Ashe (who I am convinced is a latent traitor like Cairn was). Still, an army that combined the best of both worlds (the meritocratic equality of the Chorus and the discipline of the Disfavored) would probably be more efficient than either of them.

"[Glare Silently]"

Yeah. I chose not to side with the Chorus initially mostly because I though their tactics would be ineffective for dealing with main battle (and I also fought with the Disfavored during the conquest of the Bastard City).

One note to bring up is that, compared to other games in the genre, Tyranny seems to offer so many more ways of resolving quest lines. The writers have done a fantastic job with it.

[Arcane_Snowman]

I finished the game just yesterday with the Disfavored as my allies, mostly just because they fell into my lap with my play style.

I had to lower the difficulty from the highest to the second highest during the first big boss fight (which I'm not a big fan of) because I hadn't built optimally, but once I overcame that hurdle it became relatively easy to win most fights. That being said, I did a mostly "by the feels" character creation rather than a straight up number crunching one so I suppose that that was a big part of it.

The game is definitely better than Pillars of Eternity, whose ending infuriated me mostly due to it's lack of options when I was playing a heavily talking character and they've definitely left space for that here. That being said there's still a great lack in the way options are presented, quite often I found myself unable to do anything other than try to kill those with which I was talking despite having good reputation with said faction. One such situation was particularly infuriating was meeting up with the leader of a faction with which I had a good reputation, being given no other option than to kill said person, then finding and rescuing an NPC which informed me that I could probably talk to said leader to hash out an alliance.

It felt kinda short (finished it in 20 hours, which isn't actually short) but that may have been mostly due to where it ends more so than anything else. I'm definitely going to be playing again though, which rarely happens for me especially after just finishing a game.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

From my understanding, that was kind of the point: A game that is, by RPG standards, short, but with enough branching paths that it offers a heck of a lot of replay value!

[Cespenar]

I also think that this is one of best RPGs to actually play a "good" character (if only partially), because neither there is any direct gain for it, nor the game actually gives you anything resembling "good points" in return. If you want to be good, you do that despite the circumstances. Which is refreshing.

[Spore]

I also think that this is one of best RPGs to actually play a "good" character (if only partially), because neither there is any direct gain for it, nor the game actually gives you anything resembling "good points" in return. If you want to be good, you do that despite the circumstances. Which is refreshing.

There is certainly the possibility of playing the game as the "worst evil advisor ever", literally playing into a possible resistance's strongpoints. Let people escape your edicts (to save a few useless spies for the Chorus), give expensive iron weapons to the Chorus while the Disfavored need it more. Don't invervene when both factions attack and steal from each other and just laugh and point at them when they kill themselves.

[tigerusthegreat]

90% sure Tyranny is just what happens when I play CK 2

[Aotrs Commander]

90% sure Tyranny is just what happens when I play CK 2

I'm 100% sure Tyranny is just what happens when I play CK!

(Not quite got the immortal part yet, but that next on my list of things to do during the remaing 400 years of my Rome game...)



I've been at it, what, eight hours so far and I've, like done the first three area (i.e. the first one and the camps), so I think it quite likely I'm going to be one of the longer ones.

(Mind you, that also includes a restart when I realised that magic staffs do NOT affect your spells and I may as well go unarmed, then.)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Got a question regarding the questlines:

So, from what I'm hearing, it's impossible to DO ALL THE QUESTS in a single playthrough of Tyranny, and not in the sense of "There's a set of faction paths each with mutually exclusive quests" but in the sense that "There are three quest areas in the game and you can only go to two in a single playthrough, so you'll miss an entire chunk of story no matter what you do." To be more specific, you'll always go to Stalwart, and after that have options to go to Leithan's Crossing, Stone Sea or The Burning Library, but if you go to Leithan's Crossing and Stone Sea, you lose the chance to go to The Burning Library, and if you go to the Burning Library and Leithan's Crossing, you can't go to the Stone Sea and if you go to the Burning Library and the Stone Sea, you have to skip Leithan's Crossing. Is this accurate? Has anyone who's completed the game to confirm or disprove this? I'm kind of worried that if I want to undo all the Edicts, I'll have to abandon Leithan's Crossing to its problems, and for an obsessive completionist like me that's UNBELIEVABLY frustrating.

[Inarius]

Got a question regarding the questlines:

So, from what I'm hearing, it's impossible to DO ALL THE QUESTS in a single playthrough of Tyranny, and not in the sense of "There's a set of faction paths each with mutually exclusive quests" but in the sense that "There are three quest areas in the game and you can only go to two in a single playthrough, so you'll miss an entire chunk of story no matter what you do." To be more specific, you'll always go to Stalwart, and after that have options to go to Leithan's Crossing, Stone Sea or The Burning Library, but if you go to Leithan's Crossing and Stone Sea, you lose the chance to go to The Burning Library, and if you go to the Burning Library and Leithan's Crossing, you can't go to the Stone Sea and if you go to the Burning Library and the Stone Sea, you have to skip Leithan's Crossing. Is this accurate? Has anyone who's completed the game to confirm or disprove this? I'm kind of worried that if I want to undo all the Edicts, I'll have to abandon Leithan's Crossing to its problems, and for an obsessive completionist like me that's UNBELIEVABLY frustrating.

That would be correct. I went with the disfavored line and wound up going Stalwart-> Lethians -> Stone Sea. I was unable to go to the Burning Library.
Edit so I don't double post

(Mind you, that also includes a restart when I realised that magic staffs do NOT affect your spells and I may as well go unarmed, then.)

One advantage of staves is they keep your mage out of melee range when you have all of your spells on cooldown. The two advantages of fists are they don't add a recovery penalty like staves do so you can fire off spells a little faster or wear leather armor. The second advantage is dodge will also affect melee deflection so you wont have to worry as much about staying at range.

[Aotrs Commander]

That would be correct. I went with the disfavored line and wound up going Stalwart-> Lethians -> Stone Sea. I was unable to go to the Burning Library.

Well. Bugger. That's unfathomably tedious.


I'mma see if anyone has modded that yet.


One advantage of staves is they keep your mage out of melee range when you have all of your spells on cooldown. The two advantages of fists are they don't add a recovery penalty like staves do so you can fire off spells a little faster or wear leather armor. The second advantage is dodge will also affect melee deflection so you wont have to worry as much about staying at range.

To the first, so do bows (and they have a better recovery time) and to the latter, by the time get much into the game (I'm, like level 5, just about to start Act 2), if you've made any effort, you've already got, like 8-10 spell slots, plus thrust plus combo abilities (most of which want you in melee anyway), so you're unlikely to be in a position where you do much resorting to basic melee anyway.

Still, TWF is arguably worse, since it, apparently, doesn't give you any advantage other than hitting alternately with two weapons...




Plus side, I love Subterfuge in this game. It is the BEST for free XP...!

[Inarius]

Well. Bugger. That's unfathomably tedious.


I'mma see if anyone has modded that yet.



I read somewhere that you can use console commands to unlock the areas you miss so someone making a mod for that is probably possible.

The most annoying thing of my run was I had to ditch Sirin because I got the godspeed bug with her. She killed a room full of bane in under a second and I couldn't figure out what happened til I looked at the combat log and saw her song was spamming the log. So yeah, if you want to play with her never ever disband her from your party because that's apparently what causes her songs to increase in speed.

[Cespenar]

I couldn't get Sirin at all. Was I not supposed to choose that [Lore] option and block her mind control on my first encounter with her? Or does she join later?

[Spore]

Can't really decide on a main character. What I want is a character with maximum dialogue options. Like a Planescape Wizard (Int/Cha with a bit of Wis)

Is a spellcaster and/or rogue the smartest option for that?

[Aotrs Commander]

Can't really decide on a main character. What I want is a character with maximum dialogue options. Like a Planescape Wizard (Int/Cha with a bit of Wis)

Is a spellcaster and/or rogue the smartest option for that?

Dialogue options are limited to (as far as I've seen) the various background choices you made, plus Athletics, Lore and Subterfuge skills. Nothing I've seen uses attributes. And you get skill XP for each time you use one of those skills, (casting spells et al for Lore, sneaking around/opening locked objects/traps for Subterfuge using interactable objects for Athletics). I personally found once I'd got started, a few ranks of training was plenty enough to get me over the first qualifiers for Athletics and Subterfuge and from there, it's not too hard to keep it all up.

So, the short answer is, you can pretty much do whatever build you like, if you're prepared to devote some of your starting skill ranks to those skills. (I didn't with athletics, but it still wasn't that hard to catch back up.)

[Rodin]

Your combat skills go up really fast in combat (funny, that), so the best thing to do with your starting skills is pour all the points into Athletics, Lore, and Subterfuge. As in, don't put a single point into your weapons or magic skills - just upgrade those. That should get you sufficient to pass the dialogue checks right from the very start.

The other important thing to note for a dialogue-based character is that your background gives you skills. Diplomat gives a major increase to Lore and Subterfuge, so that's recommended.

[Divayth Fyr]

I couldn't get Sirin at all. Was I not supposed to choose that [Lore] option and block her mind control on my first encounter with her? Or does she join later?
She can be found in a house in Leithan's Crossing.

[Narkis]

Got a question regarding the questlines:

So, from what I'm hearing, it's impossible to DO ALL THE QUESTS in a single playthrough of Tyranny, and not in the sense of "There's a set of faction paths each with mutually exclusive quests" but in the sense that "There are three quest areas in the game and you can only go to two in a single playthrough, so you'll miss an entire chunk of story no matter what you do." To be more specific, you'll always go to Stalwart, and after that have options to go to Leithan's Crossing, Stone Sea or The Burning Library, but if you go to Leithan's Crossing and Stone Sea, you lose the chance to go to The Burning Library, and if you go to the Burning Library and Leithan's Crossing, you can't go to the Stone Sea and if you go to the Burning Library and the Stone Sea, you have to skip Leithan's Crossing. Is this accurate? Has anyone who's completed the game to confirm or disprove this? I'm kind of worried that if I want to undo all the Edicts, I'll have to abandon Leithan's Crossing to its problems, and for an obsessive completionist like me that's UNBELIEVABLY frustrating.

There's actually a way. You just have to betray your chosen faction. There are essentialy four paths in the game, and the "alone" path lets you visit all locations.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

There's actually a way. You just have to betray your chosen faction. There are essentialy four paths in the game, and the "alone" path lets you visit all locations.
Betraying the Vendrien Guard after giving them a fighting chance feels like a real jerk move, though.

[Cespenar]

There's actually a way. You just have to betray your chosen faction. There are essentialy four paths in the game, and the "alone" path lets you visit all locations.

Does choosing the alone path and visiting all locations actually lengthen the game, then?

[houlio]

Does choosing the alone path and visiting all locations actually lengthen the game, then?

It Depends I think. I was independent but basically didn't do much in the Stone Sea. My friend had a very different experience there, despite also being independent.

[Narkis]

Betraying the Vendrien Guard after giving them a fighting chance feels like a real jerk move, though.

Well, it is a game that lets you be evil.


Does choosing the alone path and visiting all locations actually lengthen the game, then?

Probably, but I don't know how exactly it affects what you can do in each location

[Rodin]

Finally finished, after scrapping my first poorly optimized character who also didn't get the results I wanted. Turns out walking up to people and saying "Hi, I'm from the Evil Empire, and I'm here to help!" really doesn't cut it, and I wound up Lawful Evil instead of the Lawful Good I was trying for. Second playthrough was full "Screw you, Kyros" and it went a heckuva lot better.

I do love that you can get an epic Tunon facepalm by doing this.

The ending seemed kinda...abrupt. Obviously setting up for a sequel, but I still would have liked more answers than we got. The game also was heading for an epic final confrontation which never occurred. Hmph.

Still going to go for another playthrough, as I've never gotten over to the Burning Library and I would love to see what a Chaotic Evil playthrough would be like.

I have a question about the Stalwart questline though.

When I first did the quests, I was working with the Disfavored and so nobody would listen to me and I had to murder my way through the Unbroken. I also had to murder my way through the Regent's men, but when it came time to kill the baby I took the obvious way out - have Amelia abdicate the throne and end the Edict. When I played through a second time, I was able to convince the Unbroken to join me and murdered the Disfavored instead...then got to Regent, and he still wouldn't listen and forced me to murder him and his men. Okay, required boss battle, fine. But then, I didn't get the option to save the baby. I was given an option to research it, but the decision was pressed upon me right then that the Unbroken wouldn't join me unless baby goes bye-bye. I decided on "the greater good" and killed the baby, but it bothers me that one path gave me the option to save it and the other didn't. It wasn't a lore or subterfuge check - my character had very high stats in both.

So, is this just something unique to the Disfavored plotline? Or is there a way to save the baby and have the Unbroken join you? It also feels like you should be able to talk the Regent down, but I'm less convinced of that.

[Divayth Fyr]

But then, I didn't get the option to save the baby. I was given an option to research it, but the decision was pressed upon me right then that the Unbroken wouldn't join me unless baby goes bye-bye. I decided on "the greater good" and killed the baby, but it bothers me that one path gave me the option to save it and the other didn't. It wasn't a lore or subterfuge check - my character had very high stats in both.
From what I recall, the option was a Lore thing (though I did play my first game as Disfavored as well, have yet to start another run). How high was your Lore? IIRC, you needed somethink like 70 or so...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, it is a game that lets you be evil.
I know, but it still feels like a uniquely jerk move.

[Rodin]

From what I recall, the option was a Lore thing (though I did play my first game as Disfavored as well, have yet to start another run). How high was your Lore? IIRC, you needed somethink like 70 or so...

Possibly not that high, my character was Subterfuge first and then Lore second, so it's likely my Lore was in the 60s. However, I did have the "show conversation options that I'm not qualified for" on, so I should have seen it if that were the case.

Playing Chaotic Evil has given me a new appreciation for Steam Achievements.

When kicking Tarkis Arri off the Spire, I got the achievement "THIS! IS! TYRANNY!" :smallbiggrin:

I'm also impressed that the game allowed me to throw Lantry to the Voices of Nerat, and then cave in Eb's skull when she offers to swap sides. Death to the enemies of the Empire.

It also seems like there's enemy scaling based on how many people you have in your party - since I sided with the Scarlet Chorus Barik also hated me, so I chucked him out of my party. I ended up completing the first area with only two party members, and while it was harder it wasn't nearly as hard as it should have been to complete the quest with two people instead of four.

I'm going to try and do the run with only the three Scarlet Chorus associated characters - myself, Verse, and Sirin. Should be interesting.

[Kish]

While I do appreciate the information that there's apparently a way to play good in this game (my likelihood of buying it just jumped up), it seems kind of goofy to me to expect to be able to both play good in a game designed for playing evil and do everything in that game on the same playthrough.

[Aotrs Commander]

While I do appreciate the information that there's apparently a way to play good in this game (my likelihood of buying it just jumped up), it seems kind of goofy to me to expect to be able to both play good in a game designed for playing evil and do everything in that game on the same playthrough.

You can't even do everything when you play Evil.

They really really really expect you to do multiple playthroughs.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That frustrates me immensely.

Especially since it appears that you can't do everything without being a jerkwad to the good guys in some way, whether it's siding with one of the evil groups to crush them and betraying the evil group, or joining them and pumping them up with false hope before kicking the plucky rebel leader off your spire in a corny shout-out to 300.

[Inarius]

That frustrates me immensely.

Especially since it appears that you can't do everything without being a jerkwad to the good guys in some way, whether it's siding with one of the evil groups to crush them and betraying the evil group, or joining them and pumping them up with false hope before kicking the plucky rebel leader off your spire in a corny shout-out to 300.

Just as a side note the "good" guys aren't really all that good. Its just that when compared to Kyros they aren't all that bad.

For instance Eb mentions that before the conquest the Vendrian guard would of probably killed her or sold her to the sages just because she was a mage. The sages themselves were known to kidnap mages of other schools to learn their magic and were always stirring up the other major powers in the Tiers to war against each other.

[Cespenar]

Yeah, the problem with many factions and paths is that sometimes the options you present and the options the players want don't coincide.

Case in point, I'm running with Scarlet Chorus now because of... necessities, but if there won't be a neutral/indep/high justice option later on, I'll probably be pretty miffed.

Also, I tried betraying the Chorus in Blade Grave, and the journal just sends me to Vendrien's Well afterwards, saying that I botched up Blade Grave and should wait at home. Yeah.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Just as a side note the "good" guys aren't really all that good. Its just that when compared to Kyros they aren't all that bad.

For instance Eb mentions that before the conquest the Vendrian guard would of probably killed her or sold her to the sages just because she was a mage. The sages themselves were known to kidnap mages of other schools to learn their magic and were always stirring up the other major powers in the Tiers to war against each other.
I know this, but Eb STILL doesn't like it when you kick Tarkis Arri off the Spire.

[Cespenar]

So, side discussion. What's everyone favorite custom spells?

Frostfire Icicle Storm seems like a no-brainer, and I'm partial to adding Marking to stuff like Fulmination or Unravel Minds to prepare for a follow-up.

Force + Cone + Rooting seems like good a panic button as well, if your mage is getting ganked too often.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Has anyone made a map of how the Conquest decisions impact the game? I'm one of those guys who wants the story to flow together well, and want to at least make sure I experience whatever I had a direct impact on.

[Inarius]

So, side discussion. What's everyone favorite custom spells?

Frostfire Icicle Storm seems like a no-brainer, and I'm partial to adding Marking to stuff like Fulmination or Unravel Minds to prepare for a follow-up.

Force + Cone + Rooting seems like good a panic button as well, if your mage is getting ganked too often.

I missed out on a few expressions my first run. Didn't realize you could only get the cone expression in the first area for instance, but a favorite of mine wound up being fireball + expanded ae + frostfire. Hits over a fairly large area and applies burning(which base fireball doesn't) and freeze. I put that on my mage and Lantry and made that one of the opener spells I would cast. Similar setup for the ranged heal spell also works amazingly but instead of frostfire you can add the rejuvenation effect to reduce your recovery after casting it.

[Rodin]

Has anyone made a map of how the Conquest decisions impact the game? I'm one of those guys who wants the story to flow together well, and want to at least make sure I experience whatever I had a direct impact on.

As far as I can tell, they don't have major direct impacts like determining where you go, etc. The main impact is reputation. A couple of examples that are early enough I won't spoiler:

If you decide to kill the Vendrien Queen in combat, the Vendrien Guard will all be out for your head, and will constantly be calling you "Queenslayer". It's an instant Wrath hit, but presumably even that can be erased with effort.

When you first arrive at the Scarlet Chorus camp, a couple of the guards try to shake you down. If you've sided with the Scarlet Chorus enough in Conquest mode, the first guard will try to shake you down and then get a dope slap from the second guard for not recognizing you. This gets you past the guards without either bribing them or passing a skill check.

I'm pretty sure that the areas you visit are not dependent on where you choose to go during Conquest. Even if you don't pick Apex, that's where you go to begin with. On my second run I picked Stalwart out of the three Conquest locations, and was still given that as a choice for my second place to go. I think of the three Edict locations, what matters is the faction you choose, but I'm not sure about that.

Mostly, Conquest seems to be throwaway lines about what you did during the war (with appropriate Reputation shift), and changes certain dialogue options in conversation. Don't ever forget what you did, because you can ask stupid questions and suffer a Wrath hit from someone you screwed over.

Edit:

On favorite spell combos: Wisps + Bounce expression. Learn the range of the bounce, then stick one other person close to whoever you want to heal. It'll bounce back and forth between them for a full heal on each.

[Cespenar]

I missed out on a few expressions my first run. Didn't realize you could only get the cone expression in the first area for instance, but a favorite of mine wound up being fireball + expanded ae + frostfire. Hits over a fairly large area and applies burning(which base fireball doesn't) and freeze. I put that on my mage and Lantry and made that one of the opener spells I would cast. Similar setup for the ranged heal spell also works amazingly but instead of frostfire you can add the rejuvenation effect to reduce your recovery after casting it.

Ha, yes, I have that same heal spell on my quickspell list as well.


On favorite spell combos: Wisps + Bounce expression. Learn the range of the bounce, then stick one other person close to whoever you want to heal. It'll bounce back and forth between them for a full heal on each.

Nice, though I haven't found the bounce accent yet.

Overall, I think the spellmaking process was a very good addition to the game.

[Inarius]

Nice, though I haven't found the bounce accent yet.

Overall, I think the spellmaking process was a very good addition to the game.

The bounce aspect comes pretty late in the game, though it makes for a pretty mean chain lightning when you do get it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As far as I can tell, they don't have major direct impacts like determining where you go, etc. The main impact is reputation. A couple of examples that are early enough I won't spoiler:

If you decide to kill the Vendrien Queen in combat, the Vendrien Guard will all be out for your head, and will constantly be calling you "Queenslayer". It's an instant Wrath hit, but presumably even that can be erased with effort.

When you first arrive at the Scarlet Chorus camp, a couple of the guards try to shake you down. If you've sided with the Scarlet Chorus enough in Conquest mode, the first guard will try to shake you down and then get a dope slap from the second guard for not recognizing you. This gets you past the guards without either bribing them or passing a skill check.

I'm pretty sure that the areas you visit are not dependent on where you choose to go during Conquest. Even if you don't pick Apex, that's where you go to begin with. On my second run I picked Stalwart out of the three Conquest locations, and was still given that as a choice for my second place to go. I think of the three Edict locations, what matters is the faction you choose, but I'm not sure about that.

Mostly, Conquest seems to be throwaway lines about what you did during the war (with appropriate Reputation shift), and changes certain dialogue options in conversation. Don't ever forget what you did, because you can ask stupid questions and suffer a Wrath hit from someone you screwed over.
That's not entirely what I was asking...

What I'm trying to say is I want to strongly link the decisions I make in Conquest with the quests I do in the game proper, to create a more cohesive narrative, and if I do one of the non-Anarchist paths, I won't see everything, so there's the risk of me making a decision in Conquest that I don't get to revisit, like say, reading the Edict of Fire and then never getting the chance to go to the Burning Library in the game. It feels like the only GUARANTEED place you'll visit in every playthrough is Stalwart, so the Edict of Storms FEELS like a safe bet, but then you don't get the opportunities to influence your companions through Conquest decisions, like with allowing Sirin to build her cults for a much-needed boost, as I've heard that there are VERY few opportunities in the game itself to build her Loyalty through dialogue, or the influence you get with Eb by going to Apex and making decisions directly concerning the Tidecasters, or with Verse by helping the Scarlet Chorus in Azure. I just feel like there's so many plates in the air at once with this game, and it's frustrating to try and figure out the path I'll eventually weave through it, because I don't want to tick Eb off by kicking Tarkis Arri off the Spire, and that pretty much locks me into the Rebel path instead of the Anarchist one if I want to tell the Disfavored and Scarlet Chorus to stuff it...

[Aotrs Commander]

That's not entirely what I was asking...

What I'm trying to say is I want to strongly link the decisions I make in Conquest with the quests I do in the game proper, to create a more cohesive narrative, and if I do one of the non-Anarchist paths, I won't see everything, so there's the risk of me making a decision in Conquest that I don't get to revisit, like say, reading the Edict of Fire and then never getting the chance to go to the Burning Library in the game. It feels like the only GUARANTEED place you'll visit in every playthrough is Stalwart, so the Edict of Storms FEELS like a safe bet, but then you don't get the opportunities to influence your companions through Conquest decisions, like with allowing Sirin to build her cults for a much-needed boost, as I've heard that there are VERY few opportunities in the game itself to build her Loyalty through dialogue, or the influence you get with Eb by going to Apex and making decisions directly concerning the Tidecasters, or with Verse by helping the Scarlet Chorus in Azure. I just feel like there's so many plates in the air at once with this game, and it's frustrating to try and figure out the path I'll eventually weave through it, because I don't want to tick Eb off by kicking Tarkis Arri off the Spire, and that pretty much locks me into the Rebel path instead of the Anarchist one if I want to tell the Disfavored and Scarlet Chorus to stuff it...

As I understand it, at the moment, if you choose Disfavoured, you will only be able to vists either LKethian's crossing or the Burning Library. Which is annoying if those were the things you chose in Conquest.

It is not entirely clear whether this is a bug or not, sine Lethain's Crossing seems to have a lot of mess surrounding it. Given it can be opened up at the end of Act I at the same time as you have to go and report to Tunon and the side-quests that appears to link to it, it seems to be implied that you should be able to go do part of it along with everything else, but there are some serious bug with the area if you actually do it before you are "supposed" to. (Which is ridiculous since it lets you go there before you are "supposed" to.) Some of this will hopefully be fixed in a patch (or likely by modders down the line if Obsidian for some bizarre reason don't). Obsidan, however, are not Paradox Deveopement Studios and usually take their sweet time in releasing patches even for fairly game-breaking stuff like this...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As I understand it, at the moment, if you choose Disfavoured, you will only be able to vists either LKethian's crossing or the Burning Library. Which is annoying if those were the things you chose in Conquest.

It is not entirely clear whether this is a bug or not, sine Lethain's Crossing seems to have a lot of mess surrounding it. Given it can be opened up at the end of Act I at the same time as you have to go and report to Tunon and the side-quests that appears to link to it, it seems to be implied that you should be able to go do part of it along with everything else, but there are some serious bug with the area if you actually do it before you are "supposed" to. (Which is ridiculous since it lets you go there before you are "supposed" to.) Some of this will hopefully be fixed in a patch (or likely by modders down the line if Obsidian for some bizarre reason don't). Obsidan, however, are not Paradox Deveopement Studios and usually take their sweet time in releasing patches even for fairly game-breaking stuff like this...
So part of it this may be a bug rather than how the game is set up? The implication I seem to be getting is that both Leithan's Crossing and Stalwart are the two locations in the game that you'll ALWAYS go to, and the Burning Library and Stone Sea you may not see due to what you chose, and Apex is covered by the first act.

[Aotrs Commander]

So part of it this may be a bug rather than how the game is set up? The implication I seem to be getting is that both Leithan's Crossing and Stalwart are the two locations in the game that you'll ALWAYS go to, and the Burning Library and Stone Sea you may not see due to what you chose, and Apex is covered by the first act.

Having got to this myself, what it apperas to be is that you can go to Lethians Crossing (and claim the Shrine - though you have to guess or lookup online the pattern and you only get two rubbings) regardless, but you basically get a dialogue choice between the Library and Lethian's Crossing for the main quests (the former of which opens the map location).

If you choose the library, you don't get the main quests in the town.

It has been, apparently, reported one notable problem that is you go to the town first before picking it as one of the aforementioned dialogue options or something, it means that its quest does not, in fact, unlock.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Another question regarding the game's branching plot paths. Spoilers will naturally follow...
As previously established, if you're not playing the Anarchist path, you won't go everywhere and do everything. However, it appears to be possible to disable all Edicts on a single, non-Anarchist playthrough, locking you out of the main quests in Leithan's Crossing. Since Leithan's Crossing's quests involve claiming the town's Spire, you obviously can't get all the Spires in a non-Anarchist playthrough where you disable all the Edicts. My question is this: if you do a path where you won't disable all Edicts, will you be able to get all the Spires in that playthrough? Or is it basically the same thing where, if you want to get all the Spires, you'll have to go Anarchist?

Also, is it possible to get Graven Ashe and/or the Voices of Nerat to kneel to you on a Rebel or Anarchist playthrough, or can you only do so on the Disfavored/Scarlet Chorus paths respectively, forcing you to kill them on the Rebel/Anarchist paths?

[Divayth Fyr]

Another question regarding the game's branching plot paths. Spoilers will naturally follow...
As previously established, if you're not playing the Anarchist path, you won't go everywhere and do everything. However, it appears to be possible to disable all Edicts on a single, non-Anarchist playthrough, locking you out of the main quests in Leithan's Crossing. Since Leithan's Crossing's quests involve claiming the town's Spire, you obviously can't get all the Spires in a non-Anarchist playthrough where you disable all the Edicts. My question is this: if you do a path where you won't disable all Edicts, will you be able to get all the Spires in that playthrough? Or is it basically the same thing where, if you want to get all the Spires, you'll have to go Anarchist?

Also, is it possible to get Graven Ashe and/or the Voices of Nerat to kneel to you on a Rebel or Anarchist playthrough, or can you only do so on the Disfavored/Scarlet Chorus paths respectively, forcing you to kill them on the Rebel/Anarchist paths?
You can get all of the spires on a non-anarchist playthrough, you'll just need to figure out the pattern you need to activate the Crossing one from two pieces of the rubbing (the third one is quest-locked).

I don't know about the Archons, but considering what makes Ashe kneel before you on a Disfavored playthrough, I doubt that will happen on another route...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You can get all of the spires on a non-anarchist playthrough, you'll just need to figure out the pattern you need to activate the Crossing one from two pieces of the rubbing (the third one is quest-locked).

I don't know about the Archons, but considering what makes Ashe kneel before you on a Disfavored playthrough, I doubt that will happen on another route...

What do you mean? Could you elaborate, please?

[Divayth Fyr]

What do you mean? Could you elaborate, please?

You access the spires (except for the first one) by creating a certain pattern (on a sort of magical "grid") to activate their teleporters. The patterns themselves you learn from pieces you find (usually they are close), with three giving you the full design If you don't pick the Crossing quest you can still pick up two pieces, which is enough to figure out what the full symbol should be.

He bows down to you when you tell him that his own men look up to you, since you were in the field fighting alongside them, while he remained in the back

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You access the spires (except for the first one) by creating a certain pattern (on a sort of magical "grid") to activate their teleporters. The patterns themselves you learn from pieces you find (usually they are close), with three giving you the full design If you don't pick the Crossing quest you can still pick up two pieces, which is enough to figure out what the full symbol should be.

He bows down to you when you tell him that his own men look up to you, since you were in the field fighting alongside them, while he remained in the back

Both answers were helpful. Thank you! :smallsmile:

How does Stone Sea work if you don't go to Leithan's Crossing? Can you still dispel the Edict of Stone and stuff? Part of me's tempted to go to the Burning Library on the Rebel Path, but I'm not sure if Stone Sea's content is dependent on the events of Leithan's Crossing.

[Chen]

Both answers were helpful. Thank you! :smallsmile:

How does Stone Sea work if you don't go to Leithan's Crossing? Can you still dispel the Edict of Stone and stuff? Part of me's tempted to go to the Burning Library on the Rebel Path, but I'm not sure if Stone Sea's content is dependent on the events of Leithan's Crossing.

There's a bit of a bug with the Stone Sea. You get a shield (artifact) which the quest log then tells you to bring back to Bleden Mark. However, if you go directly to him you get screwed out of being able to end the Edict. You need to bring the shield back to the village elder guy (the beastwoman) FIRST so that he opens up access to the other spire and the ability to break the edict, from what I read. You can still get the spire if you do it in the wrong order, but the Edict will remain.

Don't think it has anything to do with Leithan's crossing though. I opened the spire there by going there right after the first meeting with Tunon and then went to the burning library.

[Kish]

The village elder is a beastwoman, also a guy, who goes by the pronoun "he"? :smallconfused:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

There's a bit of a bug with the Stone Sea. You get a shield (artifact) which the quest log then tells you to bring back to Bleden Mark. However, if you go directly to him you get screwed out of being able to end the Edict. You need to bring the shield back to the village elder guy (the beastwoman) FIRST so that he opens up access to the other spire and the ability to break the edict, from what I read. You can still get the spire if you do it in the wrong order, but the Edict will remain.

Don't think it has anything to do with Leithan's crossing though. I opened the spire there by going there right after the first meeting with Tunon and then went to the burning library.
Isn't the plot of Stone Sea contingent upon who you side with in Leithan's Crossing, though? Like "Side with Forge-Bound -> Ally with Earthshakers/Side with Bronze Brotherhood -> Ally with Stonestalker Tribe" and that affects what outcomes you have since "Earthshakers want you to end Edict and infuse them with Cairn's power/Stonestalkers want you to NOT end the Edict so they can continue benefitting from its effects"?

[Chen]

Isn't the plot of Stone Sea contingent upon who you side with in Leithan's Crossing, though? Like "Side with Forge-Bound -> Ally with Earthshakers/Side with Bronze Brotherhood -> Ally with Stonestalker Tribe" and that affects what outcomes you have since "Earthshakers want you to end Edict and infuse them with Cairn's power/Stonestalkers want you to NOT end the Edict so they can continue benefitting from its effects"?

I don't think so. I think the decision in the Stone Sea stand alone. You can ally with the Stonestalkers while having murdered your way through the Bronze Brotherhood or vice versa. As long as you get access to Howling Rock you can end the Edict. As mentioned if you get the Shield and give it to Bleden Mark before talking to the Beastwoman you can get locked out of getting there until it's too late though.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I don't think so. I think the decision in the Stone Sea stand alone. You can ally with the Stonestalkers while having murdered your way through the Bronze Brotherhood or vice versa. As long as you get access to Howling Rock you can end the Edict. As mentioned if you get the Shield and give it to Bleden Mark before talking to the Beastwoman you can get locked out of getting there until it's too late though.

How much will the Stonestalkers suffer if I end the Edict? Part of me wants to play a Hunter Fatebinder, but I don't want to screw over the Stonestalkers if I do. It'd be like betraying my parents, and from what I've read, it seems that the outcome that benefits the Stonestalkers the most is to just let the Edict persist, while virtually all of my actual party members, even Kills-In-Shadows, the actual beastwoman companion, approve of ending the Edict.

[Aotrs Commander]

Thoughts on completion:

Completed my first playthrough - despite the warnings of short playtime, I have clocked up a respectable 49 hours (including a fair few bit reloaded and such, I think the save play time was about 35-40 hours).

(I suspect, among other things, if one absolutely insists of stealthing everywhere...)

I went in to try and be as Lawful Evil and loyal a minion in the great cog of Kyros' empire as possible. I was enor,ously frustrated with both the Disfavoured and the Chorus, and wanted nothing more than to smack both around the head; but I went with Disfavoured nevertheless.

A fine game, I think, but not without its flaws.



Arbitarily locking off one of the areas in Act II is my first and biggest complaint. Other than to enforce pushing multiple playthroughs, there was no good reason to do that. (Especially since the Burning Library is a fairly sub-optimal choice compared to the others.)

The second was that playing disfavoured locked you in to having to fight at least three seperate forces with no chance to negotiate, which was annoying, especially as it was basically rmoving some of the roleplaying aspects of a roleplaying game when - aside from looking online - you had no idea that it was going to do that.

My final major quibble is that remaining loyal to Kyros did not appear to be an option. While on the one hand, becoming the new ruler of a new lawful evi Empire, and being able to mold the Disfavoured into something better (and less bigoted, if Archon Vilfumia has anything to say about it...) was nice and all, but I really felt that in a game where you were the servant of the Man (of the Woman in this case), wrapping up the Tiers and presenting it to the boss along with the heads or all the numpties who fracked it up should have been an option. I found the disconnect of all the way through until the last act basically having the mindset of "gonna be loyal to Kyros" and fully expecting to have to knobble both sides, suddenly being thrust into having to betray Kyros whether I (or my character) wanted to was kind of... irritating. Missing the point a bit, even.

(I was pleasantly surrised to find I was able to co-opt the disfavoured, I really wasn't expecting that, nor to have Tunon go "actually, no you're innocent," so that was a consolation prize, at any rate.)



Mechnically, I thought the game was fine. I generally prefer class systens, but given the robust and fun magic system, and self-boasting Subterfuge/Athletics/Lore I think it was easily the best implemented I've ever seen.
If/when I play again, I think I will concentrate far more on Lore (I spent a good half of the game boosting Dodge as unarmed, but failed to be able to make that so excessively high nothing could hit me). So next time, infirmary first (matser lore trainer), then library, then forge and training centre (seeing as really, the forge did very little for me in the end, aside from upgrading some gear. Had I not used stuff on Barik, I really wouldn't have noticed much.

Companion-wise, Verse had a certain charm (and as often the case, got stuck as being Companion That Goes Everywhere); Bariak was okay, and I used him as tank for large chunks of the game, but eventually just gave up and broguth Lantry back in (whi I think was the most fun character-wise) to join Eb and went with basically three and a half casters. (Next time, I might be tempted to go with Sirin (whom I used very briefly)/Eb/Lantry and go all mages. Kills-in-Shadow was mildly amusing, but utterly mechanically unappealing and never left the spire.



I would be cautiously interested in expansions (perhaps dealing with post-game Kyros). Exploring the world under Kyros' rule elsewhere would be interested, but I think somewhat stymied by the lack of monsters aside from Bane. Don't get me wrong, I am not troubled by the use of primarily humans (or classed NPCs if this were D&D), but narratively, it would make having a big bad somewhat difficult (especially not without retreading the Archon ground).

I think Tyranny could have used a little more polish to bring it to a grander sheen for my money, but for once, being allowed a principally Evil playthrough (where I could be efficiently Lawful Evil) is a very large mark in its favour.


(I actually really am not that bothered about a rebel playthrough - maybe next time a "kill all of the factions" one might be fun (since they are all a bit paff...), but that's about as far as my interest would stretch.

It is worth noting that VANISHINGLY few games, especially RPGs, manage to garner more than two playthroughs from me, the most notable exception being the paragon that is Planescape Torment, which has had about 3.75 full playthroughs out of me, and ME 1 and KotR 2 which managed three.)

[Cespenar]

Thoughts on completion:

Completed my first playthrough - despite the warnings of short playtime, I have clocked up a respectable 49 hours (including a fair few bit reloaded and such, I think the save play time was about 35-40 hours).

(I suspect, among other things, if one absolutely insists of stealthing everywhere...)

I went in to try and be as Lawful Evil and loyal a minion in the great cog of Kyros' empire as possible. I was enor,ously frustrated with both the Disfavoured and the Chorus, and wanted nothing more than to smack both around the head; but I went with Disfavoured nevertheless.

A fine game, I think, but not without its flaws.



Arbitarily locking off one of the areas in Act II is my first and biggest complaint. Other than to enforce pushing multiple playthroughs, there was no good reason to do that. (Especially since the Burning Library is a fairly sub-optimal choice compared to the others.)

The second was that playing disfavoured locked you in to having to fight at least three seperate forces with no chance to negotiate, which was annoying, especially as it was basically rmoving some of the roleplaying aspects of a roleplaying game when - aside from looking online - you had no idea that it was going to do that.

My final major quibble is that remaining loyal to Kyros did not appear to be an option. While on the one hand, becoming the new ruler of a new lawful evi Empire, and being able to mold the Disfavoured into something better (and less bigoted, if Archon Vilfumia has anything to say about it...) was nice and all, but I really felt that in a game where you were the servant of the Man (of the Woman in this case), wrapping up the Tiers and presenting it to the boss along with the heads or all the numpties who fracked it up should have been an option. I found the disconnect of all the way through until the last act basically having the mindset of "gonna be loyal to Kyros" and fully expecting to have to knobble both sides, suddenly being thrust into having to betray Kyros whether I (or my character) wanted to was kind of... irritating. Missing the point a bit, even.

(I was pleasantly surrised to find I was able to co-opt the disfavoured, I really wasn't expecting that, nor to have Tunon go "actually, no you're innocent," so that was a consolation prize, at any rate.)



Mechnically, I thought the game was fine. I generally prefer class systens, but given the robust and fun magic system, and self-boasting Subterfuge/Athletics/Lore I think it was easily the best implemented I've ever seen.
If/when I play again, I think I will concentrate far more on Lore (I spent a good half of the game boosting Dodge as unarmed, but failed to be able to make that so excessively high nothing could hit me). So next time, infirmary first (matser lore trainer), then library, then forge and training centre (seeing as really, the forge did very little for me in the end, aside from upgrading some gear. Had I not used stuff on Barik, I really wouldn't have noticed much.

Companion-wise, Verse had a certain charm (and as often the case, got stuck as being Companion That Goes Everywhere); Bariak was okay, and I used him as tank for large chunks of the game, but eventually just gave up and broguth Lantry back in (whi I think was the most fun character-wise) to join Eb and went with basically three and a half casters. (Next time, I might be tempted to go with Sirin (whom I used very briefly)/Eb/Lantry and go all mages. Kills-in-Shadow was mildly amusing, but utterly mechanically unappealing and never left the spire.



I would be cautiously interested in expansions (perhaps dealing with post-game Kyros). Exploring the world under Kyros' rule elsewhere would be interested, but I think somewhat stymied by the lack of monsters aside from Bane. Don't get me wrong, I am not troubled by the use of primarily humans (or classed NPCs if this were D&D), but narratively, it would make having a big bad somewhat difficult (especially not without retreading the Archon ground).

I think Tyranny could have used a little more polish to bring it to a grander sheen for my money, but for once, being allowed a principally Evil playthrough (where I could be efficiently Lawful Evil) is a very large mark in its favour.


(I actually really am not that bothered about a rebel playthrough - maybe next time a "kill all of the factions" one might be fun (since they are all a bit paff...), but that's about as far as my interest would stretch.

It is worth noting that VANISHINGLY few games, especially RPGs, manage to garner more than two playthroughs from me, the most notable exception being the paragon that is Planescape Torment, which has had about 3.75 full playthroughs out of me, and ME 1 and KotR 2 which managed three.)




I'm of the same mind, more or less. They could have managed to put a couple more "no-brainer" options there easily, like total loyalty and stuff. Seems a bit weird, backstabbing your own concept like that.

[Sannom]

When I played through a second time, I was able to convince the Unbroken to join me and murdered the Disfavored instead...then got to Regent, and he still wouldn't listen and forced me to murder him and his men. Okay, required boss battle, fine. But then, I didn't get the option to save the baby. I was given an option to research it, but the decision was pressed upon me right then that the Unbroken wouldn't join me unless baby goes bye-bye. I decided on "the greater good" and killed the baby, but it bothers me that one path gave me the option to save it and the other didn't. It wasn't a lore or subterfuge check - my character had very high stats in both.
The Regent really wants to protect his granddaughter and he knows that noboby interested in Sentinel Keep or breaking the Edict will let her live, as he himself ignores the law which could save her. And he probably isn't aware of the Chorus' "you shall protect and nurture children" law either.

As for the baby, I was certain that I read something about being able to save her in an Unbroken playthrough. I would have thought that options opened to the Disfavored (asking Graven Ashe for advice and him directing you to the Burning Library, or asking your fellow Fatebinders at the Court) wouldn't be opened to a Rebel player, but that the Lore option would have still be opened.

[Divayth Fyr]

I don't recall what was my lore level, but my chatacter who sided with the Unbroken did get that lore option to save the baby.

[The Glyphstone]

So I' m stuck in my Disfavored playthrough at the Blade Grave Oldwalls. I apparently need a keystone in the Twin Rivers Oldwalls dungeon to progress further, but I have no idea how to unlock Twin Rivers as a travel location. Help?

[Rodin]

So I' m stuck in my Disfavored playthrough at the Blade Grave Oldwalls. I apparently need a keystone in the Twin Rivers Oldwalls dungeon to progress further, but I have no idea how to unlock Twin Rivers as a travel location. Help?

As far as I know, you should only need the keystones for the Blade Grave to progress. The extra keystones from the other Oldwalls only provide you with access to additional loot - the same is true of Twin Rivers requiring keystones from Blade Grave to get them. My advice would be to look around further - I progressed through the Blade Grave Oldwalls as a Disfavored without ever accessing the Twin Rivers.

Accessing the Twin Rivers Oldwalls comes with a questline in Lethian's Crossing, which may not be available yet on your playthrough. I killed the plot-relevant NPC for that questline upon meeting him, so unfortunately I have no advice on that front.

[Aotrs Commander]

So I' m stuck in my Disfavored playthrough at the Blade Grave Oldwalls. I apparently need a keystone in the Twin Rivers Oldwalls dungeon to progress further, but I have no idea how to unlock Twin Rivers as a travel location. Help?

Have you clicked on all the square doofer jobs? I remember getting stuck there myself (thinking the same thing) and then realising there's one on the wall to the left just at the entrance to the big chamber with the stasis-what'd'macall-it-quest-goal-dead-bloke-thingy in that raises a staircase to more bits.

[The Glyphstone]

Have you clicked on all the square doofer jobs? I remember getting stuck there myself (thinking the same thing) and then realising there's one on the wall to the left just at the entrance to the big chamber with the stasis-what'd'macall-it-quest-goal-dead-bloke-thingy in that raises a staircase to more bits.

Bingo! Thanks.


As far as I know, you should only need the keystones for the Blade Grave to progress. The extra keystones from the other Oldwalls only provide you with access to additional loot - the same is true of Twin Rivers requiring keystones from Blade Grave to get them. My advice would be to look around further - I progressed through the Blade Grave Oldwalls as a Disfavored without ever accessing the Twin Rivers.

Accessing the Twin Rivers Oldwalls comes with a questline in Lethian's Crossing, which may not be available yet on your playthrough. I killed the plot-relevant NPC for that questline upon meeting him, so unfortunately I have no advice on that front.

Maybe it's only available as Scarlet Chorus, or maybe you need Forge-Bound reputation. I can't get anyone in Lethien's Crossing to give me quests, I just got some evidence about the smuggled iron then unlocked my spire and left.

[Aotrs Commander]

Maybe it's only available as Scarlet Chorus, or maybe you need Forge-Bound reputation. I can't get anyone in Lethien's Crossing to give me quests, I just got some evidence about the smuggled iron then unlocked my spire and left.

You can't get that key stone without doing the main Lethian's Crossing quest line and - if you made the mistake of going to Lethians' Crossing before you were "supposed" to, it can be rather buggy down that was (though supposedly they'd fixed that).

I had some warning, so I didn't go to Lethian's crossing until after Blade Grave.

(The fact you've unlocked the spire suggests you've done it before the Lethian's Crossing main quest, since that doesn't let you to the Spire until that's completed. Whether if you take the Lethain's Cross main quest later on, it'll make the quest happen I don't know. There were certainly complaints that it did not early on. Obsidian did an unusually poor job with that one area - partly because of them basically trying to force you to only be able to do 3/4 areas in act II, I think.)

[The Glyphstone]

I definitely went to the Crossing first, because it was closer. Apparently that was a mistake. I had delayed buying Tyranny until Christmas in hopes that would be long enough for Obsidian to patch all the bugs their games inevitably are studded with on first release.

[Aotrs Commander]

I definitely went to the Crossing first, because it was closer. Apparently that was a mistake. I had delayed buying Tyranny until Christmas in hopes that would be long enough for Obsidian to patch all the bugs their games inevitably are studded with on first release.

Well, SUPPOSEDLY the patch they released was going to have fixed the most egarious issues. Once you have done Blade Grave (I'm assuming, like me, you are doing Disfavoured) and the next main quests open up (wih Lethian's being one of the options), with luck, you should be able to do the Lethian's Crossing quests then once they've activated. (If they have, indeed, fixed it. If they have you're in a better position than I was, because you'll have gotten the Spire early! I suspect, given that they opened up Lethian's Crossing so early, that was the original intention or something...)

[Inarius]

I definitely went to the Crossing first, because it was closer. Apparently that was a mistake. I had delayed buying Tyranny until Christmas in hopes that would be long enough for Obsidian to patch all the bugs their games inevitably are studded with on first release.

You should get the quest to go to Lethians (or the Library) after you finish the blade graves area. I basically did the same thing you did, I went to Lethians first just to explore and since there wasnt really much to do I left for the Blade Graves. It worked normally after finishing the graves and Graven Ashe gave me the choice of areas to go to next.

[The Glyphstone]

You should get the quest to go to Lethians (or the Library) after you finish the blade graves area. I basically did the same thing you did, I went to Lethians first just to explore and since there wasnt really much to do I left for the Blade Graves. It worked normally after finishing the graves and Graven Ashe gave me the choice of areas to go to next.

But I can only get one of them? Cause if I have to pick between the two, my magic-focused character is going to pick the Library.

[Rodin]

But I can only get one of them? Cause if I have to pick between the two, my magic-focused character is going to pick the Library.

Yeah, wherever you visit you won't be able to go to the one you don't pick. I've never been to the Library as a result.

[Aotrs Commander]

But I can only get one of them? Cause if I have to pick between the two, my magic-focused character is going to pick the Library.

Actually... Then you want to do Lethian's. (As you, by the sounds of it, are doing it more or less exactly the way I did.) You actually get better magical gubbins from the Lethian's quest than the library. And yes, you are only allowed to do one. (Until such time as someone inevitably mods it...)

Really annoying, isn't it? Especially if - like me - your conquest involved both library and Lethian's, since you can't do both.



Probably my biggest gripe with Tyranny is the arbitatary "you can't do all the locations" which seems to solely exist to make you do multiple playtrhoughs. In a relatively short game like Tyranny, it seems insane not to make the most of the content. I REALLY am not a fan of the mindset that one of their design critieons was that they wanted you to play it several times.


(Disfavoured, actually, also locks you out of other options aside from "kill everyone" with at least three of the groups, which is irritating considering as far as you are aware, you are picking between LE and CE, not LE-and-martial and CE-and-sneaky.)

[The Glyphstone]

I've been trying to hold to a roughly LN attitude for the most part, seemingly appropriate for someone who is basically a Fantasy Judge Dredd.