Can I wield a weapon and an Arcane Focus staff with the Bladesinger's Bladesong?

[soldersbushwack]

+1 AC and a Bonus Attack with Dual Wielder feat might be useful for a squishy wizard. Of course this relies on confusing Arcane focus staffs with Quarterstaffs. I think strict RAW you can get the bonus attack but not the +1 AC but other DM's might be more lenient. Also playing Gandalf is cool so DM's might be more lenient.

With Bladesong + Mage Armor + False Life + Haste + Shield this would be good for tanking.

With 16 Dex and Int that'd be 13 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 5 + 1 = 27 AC.

Probably Warcaster's or Resilient's advantage on Concentration checks is more useful though.

And NVM how in 5th edition gaining an ASI is flat out better than a feat every time.

[Saggo]

You'll need Warcaster just to be able to cast Somatic spells.

[soldersbushwack]

You're sort of right.

Isn't it the case that when a spell does require material components and somatic components you can use the hand holding the focus for it but when it doesn't require material components you can't use that hand?

It's annoying.

Edit:

So I found the exact text for spellcasting on the SRD:


Components

A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.

Verbal (V)

Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.

Somatic (S)

Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.

Material (M)

Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components--or to hold a spellcasting focus--but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.

I am not sure if a hand holding a spellcasting focus can be used to perform somatic components when material components are not required.

[rtrnofdmax]

You should have no issues with your DM allowing your staff focus be a quarterstaff based on this: https://mobile.twitter.com/mikemearls/status/509454576999612416

[soldersbushwack]

But does he mean that one can use the Arcane Focus as if it is a Quarterstaff or that it counts as a Quarterstaff? One gives me +1AC with Dual Wielder and one does not.

[AmbientRaven]

But does he mean that one can use the Arcane Focus as if it is a Quarterstaff or that it counts as a Quarterstaff? One gives me +1AC with Dual Wielder and one does not.

You need warcaster.

Either you need a focus in one hand and a hand free to grab the material components, or, you require a focus and a hand free to wiggle the fingers to cast.

A better option is taking a Arcane Focus that is a pendant, and wrapping it around your quarterstave. Then using a dagger/other weapon to duel wield. problem is, you still need war caster or to not use the offhand weapon.

[soldersbushwack]

You need warcaster.

Either you need a focus in one hand and a hand free to grab the material components, or, you require a focus and a hand free to wiggle the fingers to cast.

A better option is taking a Arcane Focus that is a pendant, and wrapping it around your quarterstave. Then using a dagger/other weapon to duel wield. problem is, you still need war caster or to not use the offhand weapon.

I definitely don't need Warcaster if I only cast (V), (V,M) and (V, S, M) spells and I am unsure about (S) and (V,S) spells.

Why would I do the silly (and cheesy) wrapping a pendant around a quarterstaff thing? If I was going to do the wrapping a pendant around a weapon thing I'd rather use two Rapiers. Anyway, using an Arcane Focus Staff like a quarterstaff seems closer to RAW to me.

[bid]

I definitely don't need Warcaster if I only cast (V), (V,M) and (V, S, M) spells and I am unsure about (S) and (V,S) spells.
Indeed, warcaster only helps for somatic components. Since the same hand can be used for S and M, you don't need it for SM or VSM.

But why would your weapon be in hand when you cast friend?


OTOH, a Dex ASI give you the same AC gain without requiring warcaster.

[Slipperychicken]

PHB all but gives it the all-clear:


In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar
to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For
example, a table leg is akin to a dub. At the DM's option.
a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar
object as if it were that weapon and use his or her
proficiency bonus.

If a table leg is close enough to be a club, then surely a wizard's staff is close enough to a quarterstaff.

[AmbientRaven]

I definitely don't need Warcaster if I only cast (V), (V,M) and (V, S, M) spells and I am unsure about (S) and (V,S) spells.

Why would I do the silly (and cheesy) wrapping a pendant around a quarterstaff thing? If I was going to do the wrapping a pendant around a weapon thing I'd rather use two Rapiers. Anyway, using an Arcane Focus Staff like a quarterstaff seems closer to RAW to me.

No you don't. But then you do need a hand free to hold the materials and you do need a hand free for anything that requires (S) though.

Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set o f gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use o f at least one hand to perform these gestures.

Material (M )
....A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.

Warcaster
You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or
both hands

Ok so form this we can see a few things
1. You need a hand free for MATERIAL components or Focus
2. You need a hand free for SOMATIC components
3. They can be the same hand (though, if holding a focus and requiring components, your hand isn't technically free to hold a focus and grab out materials)

So Summary
You can dual wield a Focus and a Staff, but you need warcaster for spells with (S). If the spell requires components with a gold value, you require a hand free and to hold the focus.

Warcaster will help with (S) spells, not with (M).

[djreynolds]

Bladesong itself requires one free hand anyhow, right?

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Bladesong itself requires one free hand anyhow, right?

Nope, though I know it's confusing.


...invoke... Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. ...
You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).

No two-handed weapons. I think there was a Q&A about if it works with dual-wielding but I can't recall.
So it doesn't say empty hand, just no shield or greatsword (two-handed melee), and versatile weapons can only be used one handed, but says nothing forbidding a focus or off-hand weapon

[AmbientRaven]

Two hands to make an attack with a weapon

So to dual wield you require two hands. That takes a weapon in each hand. Two hands are being used to make an attack with a weapon, it is just separate weapons in separate hands.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

So to dual wield you require two hands. That takes a weapon in each hand. Two hands are being used to make an attack with a weapon, it is just separate weapons in separate hands.

Two hands to make AN attack, singular. Not an attack action and bonus action TWF. An Attack. The only way to make ONE attack with two hands, is a two-handed weapon.

[Saggo]

You're sort of right.

Isn't it the case that when a spell does require material components and somatic components you can use the hand holding the focus for it but when it doesn't require material components you can't use that hand?

It's annoying.

Edit:

So I found the exact text for spellcasting on the SRD:



I am not sure if a hand holding a spellcasting focus can be used to perform somatic components when material components are not required.

Yes, well, I should have been clearer but I didn't have much time to elaborate last night.

Intent or not, as the rules currently are you need a free hand for Somatic, with a specific exception of using that same hand for Material.

Mechanically that means S and VS spells require a free hand. With regards to dual wielding with the focus, you can use it with any M, VM, or ,VSM spell that doesn't have a gold cost. If there is a gold cost to the material, you will need a free hand to get that specific material.

You'll can make the case to your table that this is dumb and house rule it, because it kind of is.

Other caveats, you'll need Dual Wielder if the Focus is in the offhand. A Focus Staff can be used as a Quarterstaff but not vice versa.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

You don't need dual weilder to use a focus staff in the off hand to cast an M(V/S) spell. You could off-hand a wand while using a main weapon as a Bladesinger if you want.

I guess you guys are RAW right about free-hand somatic, though it's stupid that you can cast somatic components of a material spell with a focus but can't use a focus on somatic only. Guess that's where war caster comes in handy, to cast somatic components with a weapon in hand.

War caster, pretty much mandatory for a Bladesinger

[Saggo]

You don't need dual weilder to use a focus staff in the off hand to cast an M(V/S) spell. You could off-hand a wand while using a main weapon as a Bladesinger if you want.

Right, you can hold anything in either hand and still attack with one weapon. You can even alternate weapons during the Attack Action. But I believe the idea was to play Gandalf, so if you Two Weapon Fight with Sword and Staff, you'll need the feat.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Right, you can hold anything in either hand and still attack with one weapon. You can even alternate weapons during the Attack Action. But I believe the idea was to play Gandalf, so if you Two Weapon Fight with Sword and Staff, you'll need the feat.

Ooh, in that case, then yes.

[AmbientRaven]

Two hands to make AN attack, singular. Not an attack action and bonus action TWF. An Attack. The only way to make ONE attack with two hands, is a two-handed weapon.

RAW I guess yes. RAI i think it is clearly two handed/dual wield and I 100% would need a solid explanation from one of my players to get around that.

[Talamare]

No you don't. But then you do need a hand free to hold the materials and you do need a hand free for anything that requires (S) though.

Material (M )
....A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.


Unless, you're using your Arcane Focus instead of using the Material Components
Read the Arcane Focus Rule under Equipment

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Bladesinger + war caster + dual weilder

Weapon main hand, arcane focus staff (useable as a quarterstaff) offhand.

Somatic: your weapon hand can be used
Material: your focus hand can be used

(Though for TWF with a staff, you either need to invest in Str or MC into Monk. Which Bladesinger+Monk can get pretty crazy.)

[soldersbushwack]

Or you have to steal Shillelagh somehow (but then you have the problem of investing into Wis or Cha.)

Two-weapon fighting with a scimitar and a staff might be useful for a Druid though (although it might be more optimal at first to use a wand or scepter like a club.)

[greenstone]

…you need a free hand for Somatic, with a specific exception of using that same hand for Material.

As I read it:

A character without War Caster feat:
Spell is M, not S: She needs one free hand, that hand holds either the components or a component pouch or a spellcasting focus.
Spell is S, not M: She needs one free hand to make gestures.
Spells both S and M: She needs one free hand, that hand both holds the components (or pouch or focus) and makes gestures.

A character with War Caster feat:
Spell is M, not S: She needs one free hand, that hand holds either the components or a component pouch or a spellcasting focus.
Spell is S, not M: She does not need a free hand.
Spells both S and M: She needs one free hand, that hand holds the components (or pouch or focus).

Specific Exceptions:
Clerics can engrave their spellcasting focus onto a shield.

Additionally, the hand must be free to hold/gesture. I don't think wrapping an amulet's chain around a staff and holding the staff works, and I don't think lacing the crystal into the glove and holding a weapon works.

[djreynolds]

with bounded accuracy, you could get by without a max dex or attack stat now.

Listen, the guy seems cools. Just select war caster. And stow the sword and cast, and freely draw it.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

As I read it:

A character without War Caster feat:
Spell is M, not S: She needs one free hand, that hand holds either the components or a component pouch or a spellcasting focus.
Spell is S, not M: She needs one free hand to make gestures.
Spells both S and M: She needs one free hand, that hand both holds the components (or pouch or focus) and makes gestures.

A character with War Caster feat:
Spell is M, not S: She needs one free hand, that hand holds either the components or a component pouch or a spellcasting focus.
Spell is S, not M: She does not need a free hand.
Spells both S and M: She needs one free hand, that hand holds the components (or pouch or focus).

Specific Exceptions:
Clerics can engrave their spellcasting focus onto a shield.

Additionally, the hand must be free to hold/gesture. I don't think wrapping an amulet's chain around a staff and holding the staff works, and I don't think lacing the crystal into the glove and holding a weapon works.

The "amulet on a staff" i assume that someone else wrote was a flavor thing for an arcane focus staff, and if it wasnt it should be, as you are right about an amulet not working that way. And no reason you should do that as an arcane focus staff functions as a quarterstaff weapon.

[Vogonjeltz]

If a table leg is close enough to be a club, then surely a wizard's staff is close enough to a quarterstaff.

Maybe. The entry says it's a specially constructed staff. It's also more expensive (far more) than a simply quarterstaff.

I would imagine that it's far more fragile than a quarterstaff, so it's probably easier for an opponent to sunder it, should it come to that. In any case, I'd have to bear in mind that a quarterstaff isn't an arcane focus.