Dusblade, Mage Blade, and Magus oh my

[CowardlyPaladin]

So I want to play a Gish class for my next game, which is a sort of 3.5/pathfinder/Arcana Evolved combination rule set, and I wanted to know what Gish class to choose. What do you think? Also i'm mechanically illiterate so if you could let me know how these classes work i'd be appreciative.

So Duskblade has weaker spell selection, but seems to have more mobility and greater command of the action economy, lots of touch spells via sword

Magus are a full caster class and also a fighter, but I am somewhat unfamilar with how they work

Mage Blade is from Arcana evolved, you can find them here
http://arcanaevolved.wikia.com/wiki/Mage_Blade
and are basically defined by having a weapon that is also a piece of their soul.
For that matter, my game follows the 25 level system Arcana evolved implemented.

Oh they are also Hexblade as well technically, but aren't they simply terrible? I know my DM has implemented some fixes to make them slightly more viable, but generally are they just the worse or am I missing something? There is also swordsage, but I don't know anything about how Tomb of Battle works mechanically.

For that matter, are their any other Gish classes that are interesting/distinct/worth talking about, please let me know I know that Blackmoor has the Arcane Warrior, Dawnstar has the Spirit Adept, and Magic of Arcanis has the Spellblade, but are those basically just the same class as the first three or are they in any way distinct. Sadly I can't post their stats online

Since I am again, terrible at measuring mechanics in detail, I turn to the expertise of the playground for help, thanks for any help you can provide.

[Kurald Galain]

Magus are a full caster class and also a fighter, but I am somewhat unfamilar with how they work
Here's a Magus handbook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) to get you started. Despite first appearances, the Magus has much better mobility and action economy than the dusky (it can gain pounce at level 4, at-will flight at level 5, and teleport pounce at level 10; and can do a full attack plus a spell plus extra attack if it was a touch spell, straight from level 2).

Although the duskblade is by no means bad, the Magus blows it out of the water; it really is that much better. And yes, hexblades are terrible. The duskblade is basically an improved rewrite of poor ol' hexy.

[Cosi]

The best Gish builds are things like Wizard/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mages or Sorcadins that take a class with 9th level casting, a dip into a non-caster class, and then PrCs. So:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10

Finish to taste. Both builds get 9ths if you progress casting for the rest of the build.

If you don't want to go that route, Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger is a reasonable facsimile until 10th (it only gets up to 5th level spells).

[Kurald Galain]

The best Gish builds are things like Wizard/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mages or Sorcadins that take a class with 9th level casting, a dip into a non-caster class, and then PrCs.
Not at all.

Most people, when they want to play a Gish, don't want a convoluted combination of classes that hits some arbitrary benchmark at level 20. That's all just theory op; most campaigns never get to level 20 anyway

Rather, people are looking into a class that can cast and fight in melee, preferably both at the same time and from an early level. That means that the best Gish builds are Magus, bloodrager, and warpriest. Possibly some bard builds, too.

[T.G. Oskar]

I feel like I need to defend the Hexblade at some degree, and I'll do it by this means:

The Fighter is to the Hexblade what the Warblade is to the Duskblade.

Not easy to understand? Well - a Warblade is easy to build, hard to muck down, and does its job right; same as the Duskblade, since it's pretty much pre-built, its main trick doesn't need too much complexity, and while it's not really VERY strong, it's hard to make it weaker - it's a blasting class, simple and easy, and by level 14 you'll be spending your slots on touch spells you can turn into boosts to full attacks.

The Fighter, on the other hand, is easy to screw up, but when you get enough system mastery, you can do things with Fighters that are...nice, if not overwhelmingly impressive. The Hexblade fits the bill - if you envision it as a gish, you're most likely doing it wrong, even if that was the original intention. Now, envision it as...say, a pure debuffer class, and things differ. It has two key tricks to it - the curse, which isn't really so difficult to boost (have Charisma, stay on Hexblade; that's it), and either the Familiar (and some rule gambit to have your familiar shuffle its feats) or Dark Companion (which is superior IMO), which has the added benefit of making the curse land better. It also has Intimidate, so you can find ways to demoralize your opponent (surprise - shaken = save penalty, meaning the curse lands better), and it does a decent social tool in a pinch. It has a pretty...let's say surprising spell selection, if you consider they get Alter Self and Polymorph (which works well when they need to go full melee), two of the three key low-level debuffing spells (Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud; they only lack Web) and even Enervation, which is pretty good for them as they have the better BAB to use it, and because of their armor, some Dex to further boost it. They have tools to get multiple ways to stack penalties - and that helps everybody, from the Fighter who got its hands on a weapon...no, an item with a fixed DC, to the spellcaster that uses save-or-die spells, as save penalties stacked up to just a -6 (shaken + Dark Companion + curse) can already mean a difference, and it's not that hard (just tedious) to get an easy -10 (add sickened and a way to impose a further penalty). And you can reach -10 penalty by 10th level, with the right use of feats and some multiclassing; the closest thing to an "A-game Hexblade" if you think about it.

However, without that knowledge, you might think of making the Hexblade as a gish, which, while doable, is still not extremely efficient compared to a basic Fighter/Caster/Abj. Champ, which pretty much redefines Gish (as a self-booster, not a fighter with blasting spells), an area in which the Hexblade is limited.

Which leads to the Magus - the reason the Magus is so nice is because it went the way of the Bard. It took the Bard chassis (medium BAB, high skill points, lousy HD, 6/9 casting, buffing class features) and reworked it: better HD because of how PF tied HD to BAB by default, better weapon/armor selection, reducing skill points and buffing class features for spellcasting + swordplay blend, and finally reworking the spell list to fit the bill of a "self-buffing" warrior class, while still keeping some blasting spells for when needed. The Magus, however, is good because the Bard chassis is inherently good, as 3.5's Psychic Warrior proved - if you think of the PW as a gish, you understand why the Magus is so efficient at what it does.

So, here's the deal. You choose Magus if you want a "gish-in-a-can", as it's really difficult to screw it up, but it works better if you've had some experience as a Psychic Warrior or a similar class, focusing on overcoming the medium BAB and boosting your physical damage and defenses to an extent that you overcome the Fighter, while still having some key blasting spells for when needed, and if necessary, also some debuffing. You choose Duskblade if you want a more focused gish that eschews defensive qualities for better BAB and Arcane Channeling; in other words, instead of a gish, you play as a Spellblade from Final Fantasy games, which channels spells through its weapon to increase damage output. You play the Hexblade as a challenge - if you pull off the right build, it can be devastating to anything that's not an Undead, Construct, Ooze or Plant (but then again, those four creature types are a challenge to a good deal of characters), and may make your spellcaster actually respect you in the same way people respect a God-Wizard (since its job is to make the job of other classes far easier, doing things that may seem outside their specific trade).

[Cosi]

Most people, when they want to play a Gish, don't want a convoluted combination of classes that hits some arbitrary benchmark at level 20. That's all just theory op; most campaigns never get to level 20 anyway

Both of those builds (the Wizard less so, but it can be tweaked) can melee from the get-go. The fall behind a little around level 6, when they've taken a couple caster levels but nothing from PrCs, but from that point onward, they're good in melee and also reasonable casters.

[Kurald Galain]

(long post)
Well said.

I should add that aside from self-buffing and blasting, the Magus also has debuffs, battlefield control (e.g. Glitterdust), mobility spells, and even some utility (e.g. Minor Image, Dispel Magic); and that it alsos channel spells through its weapon to increase damage output.

A traditional Magus trick is to use Shocking Grasp for 10d6 damage that gets a critical range of 15-20, after all.

[StreamOfTheSky]

As someone who's owned Arcana Evolved for over a decade and never once gotten to play in a game of it, I'm going to say play the Mage Blade. :smallsmile:

How is the DM handling the AE/3E combination? I actually allowed Mage Blade for a player in my 3.5 game and decided the simplest way to handle it was to have AE classes use AE casting system and spell lists and metamagic/etc... feats and the 3.5 classes to stick with their own. Not ideal, since 3.5 spells are more powerful than AE (supposedly...I don't have that AE splatbook that added a lot of new spells), but any sort of mixing would be messy.

EDIT: Also, I recall since AE classes are generally weaker than 3E ones (aside from Monk, Fighter, Soulknife, etc... bottom tiers) and 3E is a 20-level game, I had planned to condense levels 15-25 of class features down to levels 15-20. Player left long before that became relevant, though.

[Troacctid]

I feel like I need to defend the Hexblade at some degree, and I'll do it by this means:

The Fighter is to the Hexblade what the Warblade is to the Duskblade.

I think a better analogy would be that Hexblade is to Duskblade as Divine Mind is to Ardent, or as Soulborn is to Incarnate. Yes, you technically have some unique perks, but ultimately, you're mostly just getting weaker versions of the same abilities, you have fewer daily uses, and you have to wait longer to unlock everything, so you come out behind across the board.

Alternately, Hexblade is to Paladin as Samurai is to Fighter. It's supposed to be a reimagining of the concept with a new twist, but the designers nerfed it into the ground so that it ended up just being worse than the original.

[T.G. Oskar]

I think a better analogy would be that Hexblade is to Duskblade as Divine Mind is to Ardent, or as Soulborn is to Incarnate. Yes, you technically have some unique perks, but ultimately, you're mostly just getting weaker versions of the same abilities, you have fewer daily uses, and you have to wait longer to unlock everything, so you come out behind across the board.

Alternately, Hexblade is to Paladin as Samurai is to Fighter. It's supposed to be a reimagining of the concept with a new twist, but the designers nerfed it into the ground so that it ended up just being worse than the original.

The reason for the Hexblade:Fighter::Duskblade:Warblade analogy relies on that the latter combines being somewhat better out of the box and hard to screw up than the former, which is the whole point.

The first analogy implies "somebody can do this better than you", which is true to an extent...that extent being that it only considers the perception of the Hexblade, rather than its toolset. In that regard, you can still apply the analogy to the Fighter and the Warblade, and in fact, that is what common conception in the forums states - the Warblade does its job better than the Fighter. Yet, the Duskblade and the Hexblade play quite distinctly - the Duskblade plays as a blaster, the Hexblade as a debuffer. Depending on your definition of gish, it either fulfills the objective (Duskblade > Hexblade) or not (Duskblade = Hexblade, say on terms of defensive spells; Duskblade < Hexblade, in terms of debuffing spells). That analogy also leads to a very nasty place, since at the end CoDzilla or Wizard can do anything better than you anyways.

The second analogy kinda fits as the Hexblade sorta works like a variant Paladin (full BAB, d10 HD, 4/9 spells, a daily class feature, a way to apply your Charisma to saves, being pretty darn hard to kill in a way, a pet), but the second leg of your analogy is flawed. The Samurai is not a reimagining of the Fighter; it's a glorified build. The Swashbuckler sorta fits the bill, but it fits the line of "reimagining the Duelist as a base class", something they tried to do with the Soulknife, much better. You really can't consider the Samurai as a reimagining of the Fighter, unless you mean the OA Samurai, which isn't half bad if you think about it (the Ancestral Daisho you get scales up with you, and the feats aren't that bad depending on your Clan).

Now...the Mage Blade... I feel that you could drop the Mage Blade and just fit some stuff into the Magus, anyways. The core chassis is what you'd expect of the Magus if it had 25 levels anyways - stops at 8th level spells, out of a potential 10 levels worth of spells, and what it mostly does is give you a magic weapon a la Soulknife but based on an actual bladed weapon (oh, and it HAS to be bladed; no such thing as a Mage Blunt or Mage Point; that also means you can't use a Rapier as their Athame, even if the Rapier IS a blade). Kinda disappointing, if it weren't because of the big list of spells...which if you think about it, is most likely what the Magus can pull. A Magus archetype does this better, in fact.

Now, OP - if you go for the 25 levels, use the Mage Blade progression to rework the Magus, and then improvise the progression for Hexblade and Duskblade - for Hexblade, that means 5th level spells at 18th level and 6th level spells at 22nd, mostly from a list of Necromancy spells, an assortment of Abjurations, Enchantments, Illusions and Transmutations, and fitting Conjuration spells (Evard's Black Tentacles come to mind) and a handful of Divinations (did ya know Hexblades can Scry? They can also Contact Other Plane, so they can do 20 questions as well.), whereas the Duskblade gets 6th level spells at 21st level but gets a LOT of spell slots, and most likely collapsed 9th level and 10th level spells as 6th level spells.

[Snowbluff]

Someone is saying JPM and Sorcadin and I'm just here with the actual best gish... the Wizard6/Swiftblade9/Spelldancer1/AbjChamp4.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I feel like I need to defend the Hexblade at some degree, and I'll do it by this means:

The Fighter is to the Hexblade what the Warblade is to the Duskblade.

Not easy to understand? Well - a Warblade is easy to build, hard to muck down, and does its job right; same as the Duskblade, since it's pretty much pre-built, its main trick doesn't need too much complexity, and while it's not really VERY strong, it's hard to make it weaker - it's a blasting class, simple and easy, and by level 14 you'll be spending your slots on touch spells you can turn into boosts to full attacks.

The Fighter, on the other hand, is easy to screw up, but when you get enough system mastery, you can do things with Fighters that are...nice, if not overwhelmingly impressive. The Hexblade fits the bill - if you envision it as a gish, you're most likely doing it wrong, even if that was the original intention. Now, envision it as...say, a pure debuffer class, and things differ. It has two key tricks to it - the curse, which isn't really so difficult to boost (have Charisma, stay on Hexblade; that's it), and either the Familiar (and some rule gambit to have your familiar shuffle its feats) or Dark Companion (which is superior IMO), which has the added benefit of making the curse land better. It also has Intimidate, so you can find ways to demoralize your opponent (surprise - shaken = save penalty, meaning the curse lands better), and it does a decent social tool in a pinch. It has a pretty...let's say surprising spell selection, if you consider they get Alter Self and Polymorph (which works well when they need to go full melee), two of the three key low-level debuffing spells (Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud; they only lack Web) and even Enervation, which is pretty good for them as they have the better BAB to use it, and because of their armor, some Dex to further boost it. They have tools to get multiple ways to stack penalties - and that helps everybody, from the Fighter who got its hands on a weapon...no, an item with a fixed DC, to the spellcaster that uses save-or-die spells, as save penalties stacked up to just a -6 (shaken + Dark Companion + curse) can already mean a difference, and it's not that hard (just tedious) to get an easy -10 (add sickened and a way to impose a further penalty). And you can reach -10 penalty by 10th level, with the right use of feats and some multiclassing; the closest thing to an "A-game Hexblade" if you think about it.

However, without that knowledge, you might think of making the Hexblade as a gish, which, while doable, is still not extremely efficient compared to a basic Fighter/Caster/Abj. Champ, which pretty much redefines Gish (as a self-booster, not a fighter with blasting spells), an area in which the Hexblade is limited.

Which leads to the Magus - the reason the Magus is so nice is because it went the way of the Bard. It took the Bard chassis (medium BAB, high skill points, lousy HD, 6/9 casting, buffing class features) and reworked it: better HD because of how PF tied HD to BAB by default, better weapon/armor selection, reducing skill points and buffing class features for spellcasting + swordplay blend, and finally reworking the spell list to fit the bill of a "self-buffing" warrior class, while still keeping some blasting spells for when needed. The Magus, however, is good because the Bard chassis is inherently good, as 3.5's Psychic Warrior proved - if you think of the PW as a gish, you understand why the Magus is so efficient at what it does.

So, here's the deal. You choose Magus if you want a "gish-in-a-can", as it's really difficult to screw it up, but it works better if you've had some experience as a Psychic Warrior or a similar class, focusing on overcoming the medium BAB and boosting your physical damage and defenses to an extent that you overcome the Fighter, while still having some key blasting spells for when needed, and if necessary, also some debuffing. You choose Duskblade if you want a more focused gish that eschews defensive qualities for better BAB and Arcane Channeling; in other words, instead of a gish, you play as a Spellblade from Final Fantasy games, which channels spells through its weapon to increase damage output. You play the Hexblade as a challenge - if you pull off the right build, it can be devastating to anything that's not an Undead, Construct, Ooze or Plant (but then again, those four creature types are a challenge to a good deal of characters), and may make your spellcaster actually respect you in the same way people respect a God-Wizard (since its job is to make the job of other classes far easier, doing things that may seem outside their specific trade).


Ok so Magus seems more like your ideal Gish, decent fighter, self buffer, with some blasty spells, while Gish is more like a caster who uses his sword. How exactly can Hexblade be respected?

Also any thoughts on Mage Blade? I know its Arcana Evolved, but my DM uses it and I don't know where it fits in this

[CowardlyPaladin]

As someone who's owned Arcana Evolved for over a decade and never once gotten to play in a game of it, I'm going to say play the Mage Blade. :smallsmile:

How is the DM handling the AE/3E combination? I actually allowed Mage Blade for a player in my 3.5 game and decided the simplest way to handle it was to have AE classes use AE casting system and spell lists and metamagic/etc... feats and the 3.5 classes to stick with their own. Not ideal, since 3.5 spells are more powerful than AE (supposedly...I don't have that AE splatbook that added a lot of new spells), but any sort of mixing would be messy.

EDIT: Also, I recall since AE classes are generally weaker than 3E ones (aside from Monk, Fighter, Soulknife, etc... bottom tiers) and 3E is a 20-level game, I had planned to condense levels 15-25 of class features down to levels 15-20. Player left long before that became relevant, though.

Arcana Evolved uses their own clasting and 3.5 uses there/pathfinder, but 3.5/pathfinder have 12 level of spells rather than 9, while Arcana evolved still only has 10.

Oh and mage blades can use rapiers in my game, I asked my DM, he said that otherwise its dumb

[Florian]

Ok so Magus seems more like your ideal Gish, decent fighter, self buffer, with some blasty spells, while Gish is more like a caster who uses his sword. How exactly can Hexblade be respected?

Also any thoughts on Mage Blade? I know its Arcana Evolved, but my DM uses it and I don't know where it fits in this

Magus _is_ the ideal Gish because of superior economy of actions all-around, coupled with being very adaptable to most situations. Sure, some folks will always post the same old gish-builds that can fight and cast, but not at the same time and not with any real synergy besides "being there".

As a side note: classes like the Hexblade "can be respected" because they work out of the box and can be played from level 1+ without any of the strange hick-ups that most 5+ component builds bring along. The moment some builds slowly get rolling? The Hexblade/Duskblade/Magus are already delivering.

As for the Mage Blade, my time playing AE is long past, but I don´ have that class in good memory because it tended to not perform really well.

[Troacctid]

The reason for the Hexblade:Fighter::Duskblade:Warblade analogy relies on that the latter combines being somewhat better out of the box and hard to screw up than the former, which is the whole point.

The first analogy implies "somebody can do this better than you", which is true to an extent...that extent being that it only considers the perception of the Hexblade, rather than its toolset. In that regard, you can still apply the analogy to the Fighter and the Warblade, and in fact, that is what common conception in the forums states - the Warblade does its job better than the Fighter. Yet, the Duskblade and the Hexblade play quite distinctly - the Duskblade plays as a blaster, the Hexblade as a debuffer. Depending on your definition of gish, it either fulfills the objective (Duskblade > Hexblade) or not (Duskblade = Hexblade, say on terms of defensive spells; Duskblade < Hexblade, in terms of debuffing spells). That analogy also leads to a very nasty place, since at the end CoDzilla or Wizard can do anything better than you anyways.
Hexblades aren't even significantly better at debuffing than Duskblades. They only get like one or two curses per day, and they might not even work. Meanwhile, Duskblades are out there with Ghoul Touch and Ray of Exhaustion out of a much more substantial reserve of spell slots, and even Touch of Fatigue as a cantrip. I mean, Dark Companion is nice, but a. as an ACF, I wouldn't call it a straight-out-of-the-box option, and b. it's debatable whether it's even better than the Duskblade's debuff options.


The second analogy kinda fits as the Hexblade sorta works like a variant Paladin (full BAB, d10 HD, 4/9 spells, a daily class feature, a way to apply your Charisma to saves, being pretty darn hard to kill in a way, a pet), but the second leg of your analogy is flawed. The Samurai is not a reimagining of the Fighter; it's a glorified build. The Swashbuckler sorta fits the bill, but it fits the line of "reimagining the Duelist as a base class", something they tried to do with the Soulknife, much better. You really can't consider the Samurai as a reimagining of the Fighter, unless you mean the OA Samurai, which isn't half bad if you think about it (the Ancestral Daisho you get scales up with you, and the feats aren't that bad depending on your Clan).
Okay, Hexblade is to Paladin as Soulborn is to Paladin. They're both riffs on the Paladin class that are poorly-designed and underpowered.

[T.G. Oskar]

Ok so Magus seems more like your ideal Gish, decent fighter, self buffer, with some blasty spells, while Gish is more like a caster who uses his sword. How exactly can Hexblade be respected?

Gish has many definitions - a "caster who uses his sword/weapon" is way too broad. Gishes usually are reserved to Arcane spellcasting classes; your definition would also include Paladins, Rangers, Clerics, and to an extent Psychic Warriors if you treat manifesting as just another form of casting.

My definition is somewhat more narrower, but in tune to what some people consider an ideal Gish: self-buffing aids your fighting side in order to keep up with monsters, and ends up as a more efficient use of spell slots than just switch-hitting: note that the Duskblade has a LOT of spell slots just to work around the switch-hitting, and Arcane Channeling at 14th level mostly works to save on some of those slots and to increase its damage in combat.

As for the Hexblade - it's still a playable class. It's a good debuffer (something I'll attempt to clarify later), and has pretty darn good survivability (even without proficiency in Heavy Armor, or low Fortitude saves). IMO, it's not terrible as CW Samurai, or the Truenamer - the first is a glorified build, the second is virtually unplayable. It fits your definition of Gish, and mine as well - perhaps it might not fit your standards, but it can be played relatively well with some system mastery. It's just more complex to make a good build than with other classes - the same problem as the Fighter. I take you don't take the Fighter seriously, either?


Also any thoughts on Mage Blade? I know its Arcana Evolved, but my DM uses it and I don't know where it fits in this

I mentioned it a bit on you - the Mage Blade has nothing to take on the Magus, aside from pretty much getting a magic weapon (the Athame) right from the start, and IIRC, one of the Magus' archetypes actually does the same.


Hexblades aren't even significantly better at debuffing than Duskblades. They only get like one or two curses per day, and they might not even work. Meanwhile, Duskblades are out there with Ghoul Touch and Ray of Exhaustion out of a much more substantial reserve of spell slots, and even Touch of Fatigue as a cantrip. I mean, Dark Companion is nice, but a. as an ACF, I wouldn't call it a straight-out-of-the-box option, and b. it's debatable whether it's even better than the Duskblade's debuff options.

You're opening a can of worms here. Be forewarned.

First and foremost - are you basically telling me that you're comparing a 9th level Duskblade to a 5th level Hexblade and tell me the Duskblade is superior because of it? That's low. Let's go at certain points of both classes' progressions.

1st level: the Hexblade only has its curse, and Intimidate (and with Charisma, a good intimidate). Duskblade has its spells, a better Fort save, and because of Intimidate, better skills. Other than that, they play pretty similarly. The Duskblade gets 2 1st level spells and a bunch of 0-levels (2 + Int mod.) Of the debuffing spells the Duskblade has at the moment, it has Cause Fear, Chill Touch (-1 to Strength, sure), Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Fatigue. You get Touch of Fatigue (a 0-level spell) and two of the 1st level spells I mentioned. Sure, the Duskblade looks superior here.

4th level: the Hexblade gets a familiar OR Dark Companion plus 1st level spells, the Duskblade got its signature class feature one level earlier: Arcane Channeling. It still doesn't get 2nd level spells, mind you, but it gets 3 more spells, so you can get all your debuffing spells so far + one 1st level damage spell, or Resist Energy, or so on. Arcane Channeling only applies to Chill Touch and Touch of Fatigue, BTW, so you're mostly relying on casting half of those with your standard action. The Hexblade sets its Curse ability DC to 12 + Charisma, already superior to most of the Duskblade spells that require DCs (all except Ray of Enfeeblement; that means both Chill Touch AND Touch of Fatigue require a successful attack roll + a Fort save to work). You don't wish to add Dark Companion, but if it does, the save penalty works for the Curse, which ALSO works for the few spells the Hexblade can cast with its ONLY spell slot: Cause Fear, Phantom Threat, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter. That's 4 spells, and by that moment both Cause Fear and Sleep are not very useful, so it basically goes to Hideous Laughter and the Curse vs. Chill Touch, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Fatigue. The Duskblade is ahead, but not by much - the Hexblade begins to catch up.

Level 6: For an E6 game, this is the limit. Duskblade gets 2nd level spells, of which you get Ghoul Touch and Touch of Idiocy as debuff spells. You also get Quick Spell 1/day, and Spell Power which aids at breaking SR. Hexblade gets a free bonus feat (Spell Focus: Enchantment aids with Hideous Laughter and Charm Person, which is already boosted because of Dark Companion and/or the Curse), and you can use the Curse 2/day with a DC of 13 + Charisma modifier. The Duskblade gets to debuff Will and/or paralyze with its spells - of those, it might need to use Touch of Idiocy with its Arcane Channeling first in order to achieve a similar level of debuffing as the Hexblade with some (Curse) or little (Dark Companion) effort, then spend another spell slot for Ghoul Touch in order to do a Coup de Grace next turn. By now, your only boost to damage is the lone 1st level known spell that's probably spared to Shocking Grasp. If it were an E6 game, most likely the Duskblade would be a better debuffer, but not by much - the Hexblade does it with less action expenditure after all.

Level 8 - the Hexblade gets 2nd level spells and Greater Hexblade's Curse, the Duskblade gets to cast with heavy shields, and still can't get to 3rd level spells. The Hexblade gets Blindness/Deafness, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics and Touch of Idiocy, of which all but one require saving throws...the same saving throws that the Dark Companion debuffs, and that the Curse further reduces. This is pure catch-up to Hexblade, and it boils down to Paralysis vs. Blindness (the Hexblade gets 3 methods to blind an enemy with 2nd level spells, two of them having also other benefits aside from blindness), as Fatigue is somewhat compensated with Pyrotechnics' Smoke Cloud effect. The Duskblade still can't replace its 1st level spell slots, BTW. I'd say here that they're pretty evened out.

Level 10 - the Duskblade FINALLY has 3rd level spells and can replace Color Spray for another spell (the Hexblade can't, sure). Of those, you mentioned Ray of Enfeeblement; the only other debuff spells the Duskblade gets at this level are Halt (and it's mostly a 1-round spell to stop an enemy) and...that's it. No other debuffing spells, mind you. Unless you consider Dispelling Touch, as you can Arcane Channel it and remove most buffs (that counts as a debuff, no?). The Hexblade gets another use of the Curse (by now 15 + Cha modifier, well superior to the same effect of Bestow Curse, what is obviously trying to mimic) and another Bonus Feat, which can be placed on Spell Focus: Transmutation or Spell Focus: Necromancy (or Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment). The Hexblade's debuffs by now are more precise than the Duskblade's ones, because the Duskblade requires more time to set them up - that said, the Duskblade can now focus on blasting, which as I said, does better. Since it can cast a spell 2/day as a swift action, it can use its actual blasting spells, or simply buff itself - or use it on its debuffs, sure. Duskblade edges ahead, but not by far - to be honest, the Hexblade by now is being a better team player in terms of debuffing than the Duskblade, which does better as a blaster or damage dealer.

Let's leap to 14th level - the moment where Hexblade gets 4th level spells (its maximum), while Duskblade gets Arcane Channeling one level before, and also got its 4th level spells one level earlier. Hexblade adds Confusion, Deep Slumber (somewhat ineffective now since it has a 10 HD limit), Poison, Slow and Stinking Cloud, plus Baleful Polymorph, Enervation, Fear and Phantasmal Killer; the Duskblade gets...Enervation, Phantasmal Killer and Toxic Weapon? The Hexblade keeps getting debuff spells, the Duskblade gets fewer, and of those, some are shared already. Hexblade gets another use of its curse (4/day, enough for an entire day worth of battles), Duskblade gets only a boost to Spell Power. By now, the Hexblade's Curse ability is 17 + Cha modifier, and with the debuffs it has in place, it has a pretty nice chance to land it...which makes all the other spells land as well, and with Spell Focus + good Charisma in place, most likely also lands the other spells. You're mentioning that Hexblade's Curse might not land, but by now, the Duskblade is mostly focused on getting as many Touch spells to use for Arcane Channeling, or mostly boosting itself to deal more damage, which is indicative of its "blaster" nature, rather than a debuffer nature. To place in perspective - the only NEW spell that the Duskblade gets that can be used via Arcane Channeling is Toxic Weapon, and that's if you interpret it favorably (that is, you cast Toxic Weapon and let it apply to your own weapon for all attacks, rather than deliver the spell and basically just adding a poison effect to EVERY ONE of your enemies' weapons). You can't place Enervation through Arcane Channeling, as it's a ranged touch spell, BTW. By now, the Hexblade has surpassed the Duskblade in terms of debuffing, as the Duskblade is still relying on its previous spells, whereas the Hexblade gets to improve its earlier spells through Spell Focus and its class features make it easier for them to land the spell.

Let's go one final step: 18th level. By then, Duskblade gets to cast 5th level spells, Hexblade gets its Dire Curse. Of those, only Hold Monster (a Paralysis spell) and Waves of Fatigue (a Fatigue spell) are your debuff spells. You also get an extra use of Quick Spell, but only 3 uses per day overall; two less than the uses of Hexblade's Curse you get, as by 17th level you get all of them. The Hexblade also gets one extra bonus feat, which it can ALSO spend on Spell Focus. The Hexblade's debuffs are now more likely to land, and can be quite dangerous - the Duskblade has to rely on non-save spells, or a set up where you debuff the character so well that they land. Anything beyond 18th level is academical, anyways - the Hexblade gets one more bonus feat, the Duskblade gets Quick Cast 4/day, and basically more spell slots to play with.

Now, note that at all moments I only spoke of the debuffing abilities, and where the turning point begins - by 8th level, which is not early but not late either. The Hexblade is more flexible on its debuffs - the Duskblade does manage to target every ability score (Strength via Ray of Enfeeblement, Constitution via Toxic Weapon, Dexterity via Touch/Waves of Fatigue, Int, Wis and Cha via Touch of Idiocy), but so does the Hexblade (Str and Dex via Pyrotechnics, Con via Poison, Int, Wis and Cha via Touch of Idiocy), so they're equal on that regard, but the Hexblade has at least one more way to reduce saving throw penalties via spells (Fear) than the Duskblade, and has more crowd control spells (Glitterdust, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Confusion vs. Obscuring Mist, Bigby's Interposing Hand, Waves of Fatigue). The Hexblade has manipulation spells as well (Charm Person, Enthrall, Suggestion, Charm Monster, Dominate Person), strong mobility (Mount, Dimension Door, Phantom Steed, Spider Climb), solid non-AC defenses (Invisibility, Resist Energy, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Wind Wall) and some decent self-buffs (Resist Energy again, Greater/Magic Weapon which shares with Duskblade but the latter does better because of better CL, Alter Self, Polymorph, Rage, Bull's Strength, Protection from Energy) and even some utility spells (Contact Other Plane, Scrying, Arcane Sight, Sending, Unseen Servant). The Hexblade has a pretty decent spell list, even just going by debuffs alone - it DOES lack blasting spells, which the Duskblade has in excess, but that is where you notice that the Duskblade's focus is on blasting, as it has very good blasting spells (Disintegrate, Polar Ray, Chain Lightning, Shout). Note that I'm NOT adding any of the spells the Hexblade gets through the Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer (both of which are replicated in Spell Compendium) or Complete Mage, of which at least 6-7 spells are debuffing spells, and of those, about 3-4 of them are debuffing spells as well.

That is why I'm intrigued that you claim the Duskblade is a superior debuffer than the Hexblade, when it's not - the Hexblade only starts slower, but after the tipping point, just by their basic spell lists alone, the Hexblade pushes through. Unless, as with the OP and his definition of gish, your definition of "debuffing" is different.

As for Dark Companion: A) I mention the Duskblade is better straight-out-of-the-box, not the Hexblade (Florian is the one that mentions the Hexblade works out of the box), but it's an option as it's on the same book the Duskblade is out, and B), it's a non-action debuff that affects the target automatically, making other debuffs work. Remember that, as I mentioned, only Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Idiocy have no saves, and of those, Ray of Enfeeblement can't be used with Arcane Channeling and can be resisted by SR. That is why I believe your definition of "debuffing" must be different, as save penalties (and AC penalties, which the Dark Companion offers, and attack penalties, ability check penalties and skill check penalties, as the Curse offers) are quite dangerous at the long run and they stack. Emphasis on "stack".


Okay, Hexblade is to Paladin as Soulborn is to Paladin. They're both riffs on the Paladin class that are poorly-designed and underpowered.

People claim the Paladin is poorly-designed and underpowered, to the extent that they claim the Crusader is the stealth fix for the Paladin. You might have to blame the original class - if you don't, then it's mostly blaming a lack of understanding on how to work the class, as the Paladin can be quite unforgiving if you don't get to understand its optimization ceiling. What I can give you, though, is that the Hexblade's optimization ceiling is lower because of less support.

I still believe the Fighter provides a better allegory as the Fighter has an unforgiving optimization floor, but once you get to understand it, you can pull off some pretty nasty tricks with it.

[Pluto!]

I don't hate Hexblade, but if I'm trying to play a Fighter/Wizard, casting Ray of Enfeeblement once per day and swinging the same Greatsword with the same modifiers as a Warrior just feels so bad - especially with DB as an alternative, who outfights the Warrior and has a lot more spells than Hexblade at any level and more ways to incorporate spells into its attack routines by level 5 than the HB gets by 20.

[T.G. Oskar]

I don't hate Hexblade, but if I'm trying to play a Fighter/Wizard, casting Ray of Enfeeblement once per day and swinging the same Greatsword with the same modifiers as a Warrior just feels so bad - especially with DB as an alternative, who outfights the Warrior and has a lot more spells than Hexblade at any level and more ways to incorporate spells into its attack routines by level 5 than the HB gets by 20.

That's not bad - you don't have to love all classes equally, and you can choose not to like the Hexblade because it doesn't fit what you want. I only have issues to say that it's "terrible", because it doesn't fit that term. CW Samurai is terrible - it's a glorified build, and the only actual build that made good use of it (Takahashi) can be outdone just by using Zhentarim Fighter, while still having more flexibility...and the Samurai can't do much else, as it has a fixed fighting style that requires a fixed set of weapons, and its Kiai Smite isn't that great anyways. The Truenamer is...well, it's unplayable, and that's why it's terrible - you need to focus on Truenaming to meet the DC, and each time you use it, that effort goes to waste. The Hexblade pales in comparison to other classes, but at least it's playable, and playable enough to earn a spot on the team with some effort. The Duskblade, on the other hand, has it easier, but to claim it's a better debuffer is...to my understanding, absurd. And the Magus does the "gish" job better than either the Duskblade OR the Hexblade, despite medium BAB, because it is far more flexible in what it can do than either of the two. That one class is superior doesn't make the others terrible - it only makes that class superior. Claiming a class is "terrible" requires another point - people claim the Paladin is bad, but only a few claim it as "terrible", and only because of the Code. Yet others claim Paladin is not just good, but great, and expose the reasons why. Same thing with the Fighter, or the Monk - and yet, even the Monk in one way or another is playable. It takes a special breed of contempt to make me claim a class (or prestige class) is terrible, and I only reserve that vitriol to the CW Samurai and the Mythic Exemplar.

[Troacctid]

First and foremost - are you basically telling me that you're comparing a 9th level Duskblade to a 5th level Hexblade and tell me the Duskblade is superior because of it? That's low. Let's go at certain points of both classes' progressions.
No, I'm comparing a 5th level Duskblade and a 5th level Hexblade and telling you that the Hexblade isn't superior. They both have debuff options, and the Hexblade's aren't especially better than the Duskblade's.

Person_Man's niche ranking system places them both as a 2 in the debuffer niche, and I happen to agree with that placement.


Level 8 - the Hexblade gets 2nd level spells and Greater Hexblade's Curse, the Duskblade gets to cast with heavy shields, and still can't get to 3rd level spells. The Hexblade gets Blindness/Deafness, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics and Touch of Idiocy, of which all but one require saving throws...the same saving throws that the Dark Companion debuffs, and that the Curse further reduces. This is pure catch-up to Hexblade, and it boils down to Paralysis vs. Blindness (the Hexblade gets 3 methods to blind an enemy with 2nd level spells, two of them having also other benefits aside from blindness), as Fatigue is somewhat compensated with Pyrotechnics' Smoke Cloud effect. The Duskblade still can't replace its 1st level spell slots, BTW. I'd say here that they're pretty evened out.
The Hexblade gets one 2nd level spell, and still only has two 1st level spells and two curses. The Duskblade has seven 2nd level spells and eight 1st level spells, plus eleven or twelve cantrips. So now maybe the Hexblade lasts for two encounters before turning into a Warrior, instead of just one, while the Duskblade can still comfortably go all day without running out of gas. And no, the Duskblade still doesn't have 3rd level spells, but she's only one level away, where the Hexblade needs another four levels, so you can hardly call it a strike against her.


Level 10 - the Duskblade FINALLY has 3rd level spells and can replace Color Spray for another spell (the Hexblade can't, sure). Of those, you mentioned Ray of Enfeeblement; the only other debuff spells the Duskblade gets at this level are Halt (and it's mostly a 1-round spell to stop an enemy) and...that's it. No other debuffing spells, mind you.
The Duskblade still has more debuffs than the Hexblade, on account of having, like, ten times as many spells per day. It doesn't matter all that much that she has fewer to choose from--she's a spontaneous caster, she's perfectly happy spamming the same two or three spells. Maybe you can argue that the Hexblade's debuffs are higher-impact or more accurate (I guess Glitterdust is pretty good), but their scarcity is a major hindrance that makes it difficult for the Hexblade to fill the debuffer role reliably in every combat. Meanwhile, the Duskblade might only have Ghoul Touch and Touch of Fatigue, but she can consistently cast them every round if she likes, and will probably end up debuffing more enemies over the course of an average day--and even if the enemy makes their save, the Duskblade is still hitting for weapon damage.

See, even though the Hexblade has some better debuff spells on its list, it's stuck only using one or two of them per day. That's no big deal for classes like the Factotum or Spellthief, where the spells are primarily there for a little extra utility, but for a Hexblade, they're billed as a significant part of his combat pattern. Except, whoops! Cast one or two (underleveled and underpowered) spells, and you're done for the day. Hope you weren't relying on them as a pillar of your strategy!


People claim the Paladin is poorly-designed and underpowered, to the extent that they claim the Crusader is the stealth fix for the Paladin. You might have to blame the original class - if you don't, then it's mostly blaming a lack of understanding on how to work the class, as the Paladin can be quite unforgiving if you don't get to understand its optimization ceiling. What I can give you, though, is that the Hexblade's optimization ceiling is lower because of less support.
Regardless of how well-designed you think the Paladin is, Soulborn and Hexblade are both poor imitations of it. Match them up side-by-side and the comparison is pretty lopsided in favor of the Paladin.

[T.G. Oskar]

No, I'm comparing a 5th level Duskblade and a 5th level Hexblade and telling you that the Hexblade isn't superior. They both have debuff options, and the Hexblade's aren't especially better than the Duskblade's.

Person_Man's niche ranking system places them both as a 2 in the debuffer niche, and I happen to agree with that placement.

Point taken, though it does lead to think that the Duskblade is superior...on the remainder of the answer.


The Hexblade gets one 2nd level spell, and still only has two 1st level spells and two curses. The Duskblade has seven 2nd level spells and eight 1st level spells, plus eleven or twelve cantrips. So now maybe the Hexblade lasts for two encounters before turning into a Warrior, instead of just one, while the Duskblade can still comfortably go all day without running out of gas. And no, the Duskblade still doesn't have 3rd level spells, but she's only one level away, where the Hexblade needs another four levels, so you can hardly call it a strike against her.

[...]

The Duskblade still has more debuffs than the Hexblade, on account of having, like, ten times as many spells per day. It doesn't matter all that much that she has fewer to choose from--she's a spontaneous caster, she's perfectly happy spamming the same two or three spells. Maybe you can argue that the Hexblade's debuffs are higher-impact or more accurate (I guess Glitterdust is pretty good), but their scarcity is a major hindrance that makes it difficult for the Hexblade to fill the debuffer role reliably in every combat. Meanwhile, the Duskblade might only have Ghoul Touch and Touch of Fatigue, but she can consistently cast them every round if she likes, and will probably end up debuffing more enemies over the course of an average day--and even if the enemy makes their save, the Duskblade is still hitting for weapon damage.

See, even though the Hexblade has some better debuff spells on its list, it's stuck only using one or two of them per day. That's no big deal for classes like the Factotum or Spellthief, where the spells are primarily there for a little extra utility, but for a Hexblade, they're billed as a significant part of his combat pattern. Except, whoops! Cast one or two (underleveled and underpowered) spells, and you're done for the day. Hope you weren't relying on them as a pillar of your strategy!

So, the core of the argument that Hexblade is not as good as a debuffer as Duskblade (doesn't that imply superiority if comparing on strict terms?) is because the Duskblade has more spells? Of course I don't rely on spells as the pillar of my strategy - I rely on stacking debuffs as the pillar of my strategy, so that those few spells count. Dark Companion, the class feature you mostly pushed aside for being an ACF, is part of that pillar, as it's the starting debuff mechanic - it's automatic, requires virtually no action from the Hexblade (the effect moves on its own, though on the same action as the Hexblade), and since it's a starting debuff, I can stack another kind of debuff to it. That stacking can be the Curse, or maybe a feat which has a relatively high save DC (Intimidating Strike, Dreadful Wrath, Brutal Strike), which further provides a debuff, which allows me to stack another debuff, which...you get the idea. The Duskblade can do something similar, but it doesn't have a starting debuffing point as the Hexblade does - if it does, it has to spend feats or multiclass, which the Hexblade can do as well, and provide a stronger basis to debuff. That is why I consider the Hexblade a superior debuffer - in the end, it's a Warrior with a floating hex, which can use its other feats to potentially worsen those penalties, so that others (like the Duskblade, if you want, or more appropriately a full spellcaster) finishes the job. If you don't want Dark Companion, at least the Hexblade can save its curses for when it's appropriate (when the enemy has been softened enough), which has a similar effect. In the case of the Dark Companion and Hexblade's Curse, both require either no actions or free actions, which means you can stack them alongside other actions.

Also - note that I focus mostly on save penalties. At most, you're imposing either Paralysis (which is very good, but at 12 + Intelligence, it becomes easy to resist real quick) or Fatigue (which at most reduces Reflex saves, not Fortitude or Will which are more dangerous) with the Duskblade, which is at most the extent of what you can offer. The Duskblade can attempt to soften down the mooks by spending spell slots to debuff, but in the end, against the tougher enemies, spending spell slots on that isn't very efficient, particularly when you're mostly relying on forcing multiple saves for the same effect.

The only way I could reliably accept it is if you expressively forbid ACFs or otherwise forbid the Hexblade from getting its Dark Companion (with the express caveat that the Familiar cannot be tweaked either - an Imp with two certain feats can do the same while also benefitting from Invisibility, a lot of HP, amongst other things) and having the Duskblade focus on feat-based debuffing, as the Hexblade wouldn't have any other advantage over the Duskblade other than the Curse. The Curse works mostly like Smiting - you use it at the right moment, not willy-nilly. The Hexblade still can Intimidate better than the Duskblade (because of class skill + Charisma), which is still another way to debuff an opponent - and while it takes a standard action, yes, it IS something the Hexblade can do while out of spells, and can serve as a softener for the Curse as well.

But, I did mention that you might have a different definition of "debuffing". That kinda fits the bill - it's the same strict definition, but you place more weight on quantity over quality, whereas I place it on the opposite - particularly when you could spend those slots on other stuff the Duskblade can do quite nicely. An Elemental-Substituted Shocking Grasp can add a substantial amount of damage to your attacks, and is neither an inefficient nor impractical use of your spell slots, without having to comfort yourself on "well, at least I did damage" when the spell slot you used fails.


Regardless of how well-designed you think the Paladin is, Soulborn and Hexblade are both poor imitations of it. Match them up side-by-side and the comparison is pretty lopsided in favor of the Paladin.

I can talk about that. Paladin is my favorite class, and I recognize it has some major flaws (I abhor Remove Disease, because it provides absolutely nothing other than a flavor ability that could have been used for better stuff...like feats, for example).

That said, I don't consider the Hexblade an imitation of the Paladin. I do recognize its chassis, but hey, the Hexblade has more class features than the Paladin does after all. That's what I call a "good start". Both have also great, but underrated, spell lists, although the Hexblade suffers from having less support than the Paladin in terms of new spells. Both have their niches, which are distinct. Inspired by, sure, but not a pale imitation, as the Paladin can't do debuffing by any means whatsoever (and its buffing isn't that stellar either).

Now, the Soulborn? Yeah, that's a bad imitation of the Paladin, for sure. So does Divine Mind, which goes even further to be ridiculous in concept (you lose your innate, developed psychic powers because you fall out in favor with your deity, while the Ardent doesn't?)

[CowardlyPaladin]

Honestly, I think from a fluff perspective the Knight, Soulborn, Champion (Arcana Evolved) and Crusader would have all been better if they tried to be their own thing rather than attempting to remake the Paladin.

As for Gith, does anybody think the Mage Blade and magus could be combined into a single class?

[Florian]

@T.G.Oskar:

The problem with the term "Gish" in this context is the dividing line between the editions here, especially 3,5 and PF. In 3,5 the 16BAB/9th spells has been fetishized as "best of both worlds" for arcane casters, something that is a bit meaningless as divine casters can practically do that out of the box.
As has already been mentioned, the PF version of the term gravitates more towards looking at the economy of actions on that one, meaning "cast and fight with the same action". That leaves Bloodrager, Magus and Warpriest as "Gishes", obviously including an divine caster in the mix.

Looking at the rock-solid performance of the PF melee-based classes, I really can´t understand how the 16/9 idea can still be used as "gold standard", as even fully buffed, such a gish never comes close to the performance in weapon-based combat.



Honestly, I think from a fluff perspective the Knight, Soulborn, Champion (Arcana Evolved) and Crusader would have all been better if they tried to be their own thing rather than attempting to remake the Paladin.

Depends. The Paladin class occupies a certain sweet spot that has a lot of appeal to newer players that want to engage in complexity step by step, as it has more resources to manage than the basic all-day-long classes, but the resource management still is a secondary concern to basic combat abilities.



As for Gith, does anybody think the Mage Blade and magus could be combined into a single class?

Maybe as some archetype for the Magus. Problem is, going by PF design paradigms, the Magus already is one of the strongest classes with one of the highest power Ceilings around (speaking of pure efficiency here, not theoretical tier stuff). Most options the Mage Blade has are already included in the Magus class, like the class features being available as Arcana, and so on.

Edit: Looking at stuff like Cut Through Wards/Spells, such things can already been done with picking a Magus archetype that gives access to Weapon Training and going the Cut from Air/Spellcut route.

[Pluto!]

The biggest thing the Mage Blade has going for it is AE's pseudo-psionic spell augmentations and spell templates. Shifting the augmentable spells to PF would take a lot of work, but would be great.

Porting the spell templates directly might be too good (cold, for instance, has an insane rider effect).

[Amphetryon]

Somewhat of an aside: If you are considering Hexblade, the Mearls fix is something I consider mandatory.


Mike Mearls wrote:
Nov 07, 2006 - 10:05AM

The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life. As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually work in play.

Armored mages fall into the first category. Them seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed.

If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:

Good Fortitude save
Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
Curse ability usable as a swift action
Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
Ability to cast in light or medium armour and while carrying a light shield or buckler
At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage.

(These are by no means official. They're just off the top of my head changes I'd consider)

[CowardlyPaladin]

The biggest thing the Mage Blade has going for it is AE's pseudo-psionic spell augmentations and spell templates. Shifting the augmentable spells to PF would take a lot of work, but would be great.

Porting the spell templates directly might be too good (cold, for instance, has an insane rider effect).

Ok, so if we imagine Mage Blade and Magus as seperate classes, does the Mage Blades access to spell templates and all of the cool things that Arcana Evolves offers plus their own class abilities at all even them towards the Magus' access to pathfinder spells in terms of utility and power (or the duskblade for that matter).

The Mageblade doesn't have as much critical examination as Duskblade or Magus, which is what i'm trying to spark here. It seems to me that if you balanced them correctly, Magus and Duskblade both have a distinct and equally fun role in the party (though Magus is better balanced) which the Mageblade either doesn't have or it hasn't been determined yet. Though maybe i'm incorrect and you don't need a Duskblade and a Magus in the same party

[Pluto!]

That's fair.

What Mage Blade needs more than anything is the option to cast spells the same turn as he attacks with his weapon. I'd be tempted to add a sentence to the Athame ability: "If a Mage Blade makes a Standard Action or Full Round attack action with his Athame, for the rest of the round, he may cast any one prepared spell with a casting time of one standard action as if it were affected by the Quicken Spell feat."

Other fixes are possible, and further changes would even be reasonable (Increase BA? Add skills? Broaden spell list? Improve special weapon? Improve casting?) but I think once that one wicket is hit, the Mage Blade at least steps into the same weight class as the Duskblade and the Magus.

[Morcleon]

Someone is saying JPM and Sorcadin and I'm just here with the actual best gish... the Wizard6/Swiftblade9/Battledancer1/AbjChamp4.

Why Battledancer? Should get Monk with Carmendine Monk.

[Florian]

spell templates

Have you taken a look at the Words of Power system (Ultimate Magic)? It´s even more versatile and you can really work out what effects you want to accomplish with it.

[Troacctid]

Why Battledancer? Should get Monk with Carmendine Monk.

I assume for the full BAB.

[Snowbluff]

Why Battledancer? Should get Monk with Carmendine Monk.


I assume for the full BAB.

Huh? No it says Spelldancer. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrwellianRetcon) It's a PrC that gets easy free metagic whose requirement happen to line up with Swiftblade. It's an elegant combination. D:

[Morcleon]

Huh? No it says Spelldancer. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrwellianRetcon) It's a PrC that gets easy free metagic whose requirement happen to line up with Swiftblade. It's an elegant combination. D:

Sure, hon, whatever you say. :smalltongue:

What's Spelldancer from?

[Snowbluff]

Sure, hon, whatever you say. :smalltongue:

What's Spelldancer from?

Magic of Faerun. It's better if you have a Rod of Bodily Restoration or a similiar items.

[CowardlyPaladin]

That's fair.

What Mage Blade needs more than anything is the option to cast spells the same turn as he attacks with his weapon. I'd be tempted to add a sentence to the Athame ability: "If a Mage Blade makes a Standard Action or Full Round attack action with his Athame, for the rest of the round, he may cast any one prepared spell with a casting time of one standard action as if it were affected by the Quicken Spell feat."

Other fixes are possible, and further changes would even be reasonable (Increase BA? Add skills? Broaden spell list? Improve special weapon? Improve casting?) but I think once that one wicket is hit, the Mage Blade at least steps into the same weight class as the Duskblade and the Magus.

If we assume that some of these fixes are put into place, does the Mage Blade have a distinct enough role from the Duskblade or Magus, or is it simply redundant?

[CowardlyPaladin]

Have you taken a look at the Words of Power system (Ultimate Magic)? It´s even more versatile and you can really work out what effects you want to accomplish with it.

No I haven't, is it part of Arcana Evolved or is it something else?

[Florian]

No I haven't, is it part of Arcana Evolved or is it something else?

It´s Pathfinder and can be found here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower.html

[CowardlyPaladin]

It´s Pathfinder and can be found here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower.html

Huh I never knew this existed, cool. I kinda wish they would just make a class using this, rather than just having it be optional, that way it woudl get more use.

Honestly I feel that if you gave this to truenamers that would really fit them thematically

While this is very interesitng, do you think this would help the Mage Blade?