Card Hearthstone 15: The Doctor has Left the Building. [Archive] - Page 5

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ChaosOS

2016-04-19, 12:02 PM

moossabi

2016-04-19, 12:10 PM

Although Sneed's may be rotating out, Paletress is still in. So far the new legends are net buffs but this little guy is not who you want to pull out of Paletress, while the Shroud Taunt legend is an incredible pull.

The chances are still very low, so I'm still going to aim for getting Paletress (after Chillmaw, of course).

Grytorm

2016-04-19, 12:26 PM

I have had a terrible idea for a hunter deck. Control Dragon hunter, using the good Hunter removal along with Twilight Drake and Azure Drake to shore up the problems with defense and card draw. It still wouldn't have the best access to draw spells but hopefully it would be enough. Truthfully Deathrattle with Nzoth as the win condition is probably better, if only we still had Sludge Belcher.

ChaosOS

2016-04-19, 12:36 PM

Go for Malygos based and you might have a real deck, considering how many burn spells hunters have access to. Maly+Arcane Shot x2 (needs one tick of emperor on a single piece) and you nuke for 14

The Glyphstone

2016-04-19, 01:51 PM

It's now official, the Expansion and Formats go live with next Tuesday's patch.

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20097936/whispers-of-the-old-gods-creeps-into-action-on-april-26-4-19-2016

moossabi

2016-04-19, 02:02 PM

It's now official, the Expansion and Formats go live with next Tuesday's patch.

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20097936/whispers-of-the-old-gods-creeps-into-action-on-april-26-4-19-2016

Huh. I was expecting more commons. Oh well! :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone

2016-04-19, 02:06 PM

Huh. I was expecting more commons. Oh well! :smallbiggrin:

Looking at Hearthhead, we've gotten 70-odd cards revealed out of the promised 134. Plenty of Commons left in the sea to be spoilered. Also, interesting thing I missed seeing:

However, C'Thun and his related cards will not be included in Arena picks, due to their very limited synergy,[4] although they may still appear in Arena matches through random effects.[5] This is the first time cards have been specifically excluded from Arena picks.

Tectonic Robot

2016-04-19, 02:08 PM

Do you guys remember when I was like, 'Muster For Battle is going to be so good, guys' and y'all were like, 'nah, no way, that one is gunna suck'.

Well, looks like I was VINDICATED BY HISTORY, BABY.

moossabi

2016-04-19, 02:09 PM

Grytorm

2016-04-19, 02:19 PM

Looking at Hearthhead, we've gotten 70-odd cards revealed out of the promised 134. Plenty of Commons left in the sea to be spoilered. Also, interesting thing I missed seeing:

What would be neat is if they excluded Cthun synergy cards unless you draft a Cthun. So if you first pick Cthun then you have the normal or maybe slightly elevated chance of pulling the support cards. Although I wouldn't mind just picking several of the Cthun cards without the synergy bonus.

Joran

2016-04-19, 02:36 PM

Do you guys remember when I was like, 'Muster For Battle is going to be so good, guys' and y'all were like, 'nah, no way, that one is gunna suck'.

Well, looks like I was VINDICATED BY HISTORY, BABY.

I went back to the thread; only Gray Mage and Gandariel didn't think it'd be good (you did say you'd come back when it was super popular, so here you are ;) ). Everybody else was either positive or thinking it could see use in some kind of new deck. Special shoutout to Destro_Yersul who correctly predicted it would used in Aggro decks and that it'd be a strong card.

Trump also thought it'd be good.

If I remember correctly, after GvG, midrange Paladin wasn't that great, even with Muster/Quartermaster. Aggro Paladin became a really strong deck, once someone figured it out, then that got dumpstered by the Great Patron migration. Then once Warsong Commander was nerfed, Secret Paladin became a top deck and here we are.

PsyBomb

2016-04-19, 02:51 PM

There are a couple of C'thun synergy cards I'm honestly sad are getting excluded from Arena, in particular C'thun's Chosen. That said, looks like I'll be able to grab about five packs or so in addition to the free ones should the commons I need not pop immediately.

Mando Knight

2016-04-19, 02:59 PM

If I remember correctly, after GvG, midrange Paladin wasn't that great, even with Muster/Quartermaster. Aggro Paladin became a really strong deck, once someone figured it out, then that got dumpstered by the Great Patron migration. Then once Warsong Commander was nerfed, Secret Paladin became a top deck and here we are.

Even before Warsong got thrown out the window, Secret Paladin was basically the #1 "Not Patron Warrior" deck as soon as one of the more refined lists hit Reddit.

boomwolf

2016-04-19, 03:58 PM

The Glyphstone

2016-04-19, 04:00 PM

There are cards getting excluded from arena? WTF?

See the post I quoted above. C'thun and the various C'thun synergy cards will not be present in Arena, because of their extremely limited synergy. They'll only appear if you get them randomly through something like Unstable Portal, in which case ha ha sucks to be you?

Talion

2016-04-19, 04:11 PM

moossabi

2016-04-19, 04:35 PM

So, I've saved up a fair bit of dust, and while I'm not looking to spend any of it until the new stuff drops, I am curious: What are your guys' top five picks for Classic legendary cards? I've been collecting almost exclusively Classic packs since day on, so I should always have options in Standard. I've got most of the commons and rares, as well as a decent pick of epics, and a handful of the Legendary ones. But since I have the dust, I'm left wondering what I might want to grab next.

For me:

Ragnaros; As per the thread title, Boctor and the good token creating cards are gone, so he's going to be pretty good.
Sylvanas; Really good at making your opponent make really weird choices to work around her. Loses value if silenced, though.
Tirion; good late-game taunt, devastating if your opponent is down to a couple minions, as he can absorb quite a bit of damage.
Ysera; Godly if you get the right pulls, and is very hard to remove.
Nozdormu; Insta-win if playing against a mobile user.

This is mostly out of stuff that I've gotten to use, and then Nozdormu (who is absolutely hilarious). Whatever you do, don't craft Millhouse. He sucks.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-19, 04:37 PM

Be careful about crafting Classic legendaries right now. There's nerfs incoming to the Classic set, and there may be nerfed legendaries there, too.

My picks, though...

Sylvanas: a strong effect that makes the opponent's board decisions difficult. Found in many good decks, very good for slower decks.

Antonidas: Mage-only, but a powerful enabler for any spell-based Mage deck. Acts as a finisher for a bunch of midrange Mage decks.

Ragnaros: the classic Control deck finisher. Outclassed by some cards, but still a strong card that has immediate board impact.

Ysera: a very strong late-game value card that gets used in Dragon decks. Hard to answer.

Tirion Fordring: Paladin-only, but immense value and a very strong finishing card.

Hamste

2016-04-19, 04:39 PM

Anxe

2016-04-19, 04:43 PM

My runner up list.
Cairne might see a come back in this expansion. He used to be a staple.
Jaraxxus is used a lot in warlock decks.
The Black Knight.

Gandariel

2016-04-19, 04:49 PM

Yes, yes, i was wrong about Muster for battle.

Anyways, legendary picks.

This is a legitimately hard question, because it really depends on which classes and decks you want to play.

I can tell you my overall favorite is Sylvanas, but other than that?

Ragnaros / Ysera for most Control decks

Alextrasza for stuff like Warrior or Freeze Mage

Malygos for stuff like Warlock, Rogue, Mage, Shaman

Thalnos for Mage and Rogue

Justicar for Warrior and Priest

And then there's the class specific ones...
Tirion is always a strong favorite, often regarded as the best legendary in the game

Grom is a strong card, but if you're looking for craft advice you likely can't afford a Control warrior :P

Jaraxxus and Antonidas aren't always used, but they're really cool

ChaosOS

2016-04-19, 05:04 PM

Legoshrimp

2016-04-19, 05:33 PM

Jaraxxus is going to see play in every control style warlock until the end of time, he's why Warlock is really strong in more fatiguey matchups than the hero power would suggest by letting you turn the corner and just start powering out 6/6s

Not really that strong in fatigue match ups with him. The problem is you are going to use your hero power a bunch before you play him most of the time.
Possibly renolock goes to fatigue sometimes, but I think most warlock decks lose if they are getting to that point.

Although day9 did win his first 3 games with fatigue warlock :smalltongue:

Mando Knight

2016-04-19, 05:47 PM

Malygos for stuff like Warlock, Rogue, Mage, Shaman

Thalnos for Mage and Rogue

Jaraxxus and Antonidas aren't always used, but they're really cool

I've seen Tony in more Mage decklists recently than Thalnos and Maly combined. He's a more reliable burn engine than lining up the perfect Thaurissan into Malygos play, and Mage actually doesn't benefit a whole lot from +1 Spell Power in the same way Rogue does.

moossabi

2016-04-19, 05:56 PM

Mando Knight

2016-04-19, 05:58 PM

Tony? :smallconfused:

Antonidas.

Joran

2016-04-19, 06:21 PM

I've seen Tony in more Mage decklists recently than Thalnos and Maly combined. He's a more reliable burn engine than lining up the perfect Thaurissan into Malygos play, and Mage actually doesn't benefit a whole lot from +1 Spell Power in the same way Rogue does.

Thalnos is used a lot in Freeze Mage lists. He's an extra draw early in the game and adds that extra bit of damage in a really large burst combo with Frost Bolts and Ice Lances.

Malygos is not a usual inclusion, but I've been on the receiving end of a Malygos burst combo from a Freeze Mage =P

Antonidas has the benefit of being in both Tempo Mage and Freeze Mage lists, although Freeze Mage has variants that don't include him. Antonidas is also in Mech Mage decks, but those are going into Wild and haven't been meta/good for the last couple expansions, although my wife hits Rank 10 at the end of the season primarily playing Mech Mage.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-19, 06:37 PM

Jaraxxus is going to see play in every control style warlock until the end of time, he's why Warlock is really strong in more fatiguey matchups than the hero power would suggest by letting you turn the corner and just start powering out 6/6s
Not every one, I don't think, but he's definitely the finishing card of choice for Renolock because he can scoop your health back up one last time, plus he gives 3 damage every turn and keeps throwing 6/6s on the board.

Also, arguably the most fun card in the game.

YOU FACE JARAXXUS, EREDAR LORD OF THE BURNING LEGION!!!

Talion

2016-04-19, 06:58 PM

First and foremost I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback. You've largely confirmed my suspicions regarding my next purchase. The input will be quite useful after the update hits and we can see what all has been nerfed (and if anything has been buffed). I should be able to select a good one afterwards, though of course I still welcome any and all arguments/proposals, as I'm sure many other board members and lurkers do. That being said, since I didn't mention this before:

Ysera, The Black Knight, Thalnos the Bloodmage, Onyxia, Antonidas, Tinkmaster Overspark, Cenarius

With the exception of Antonidas, I got all of those out of packs. That and a King Crush and a Second Thalnos, which have long since been dusted. I understand that some of those aren't the most effective, but I keep them around as a collector more than anything (King Crush was a hard decision in that regard, but I needed the dust for more universally good cards back then).

As for Deck effectiveness, I would say my best decks (as of now) are: Mage, Priest, Hunter, Warlock. Some of my others need an overhaul, and in some cases I'm missing important cards. However, between my experience, my current collection, and my position in the ranks, I'm doing well enough for my purposes.

Zevox

2016-04-19, 07:01 PM

Elise is pretty good in things like control warrior and priest. I would say its nearly required. It lets you swap out cards like pw:s and acolyte of pain that actually playing would just cause you to lose. As well as situational cards that are past their usefulness, or at least less useful then a random legendary.
Nonsense. Especially the part about Power Word: Shield or Acolyte of Pain "causing you to lose" if you play them - Shield is a great card, and Acolyte fills an important role in Control Warrior, giving it card draw that it would otherwise lack. Elise is simply too slow - even if you get to the Golden Monkey, which you often won't, there's a good chance that a hand full of legendaries itself is going to be too slow to beat your opponent, barring situations where your opponent's deck has just run out of steam by then, which likely means they couldn't win anyway.

Elise has been around for a while, and I can honestly say I've never seen her as a threat. I've lost maybe one or two games to her in all this time, and those were flukes where the opponent drew the Monkey quickly and got great legends like Ragnaros and Tirion off it. It is not an impressive card.

It's now official, the Expansion and Formats go live with next Tuesday's patch.

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20097936/whispers-of-the-old-gods-creeps-into-action-on-april-26-4-19-2016
Sweet! About time we found out when that was happening. Looking forward to it. :smallbiggrin:

Do you guys remember when I was like, 'Muster For Battle is going to be so good, guys' and y'all were like, 'nah, no way, that one is gunna suck'.

Well, looks like I was VINDICATED BY HISTORY, BABY.
I only recall one or two people being particularly down on the card - most of us expected it to be at least decent, if not good, and that estimation jumped to a solid "it's good" as soon as Quartermaster was revealed. Granted, it was still great even without Quartermaster, but still.

Anarion

2016-04-19, 07:08 PM

Zevox

2016-04-19, 07:15 PM

You misunderstand, he meant that you would run pw:s and acolyte in the deck, but if you're holding them in hand late game concerned about fatigue, you get to change them into powerful legendaries that can win the game for you.
Games come down to fatigue too rarely for me to see that as a significant concern.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-19, 08:13 PM

I dunno, I'm pretty sure that Elise gets run as a standard include in both Control Priest and Control Warrior in the pro scene. It's critically important in the Control Warrior mirror, as well, because Control Warrior is still limited in the number of threats it can throw down. Largely, I think it's an anti-Control tech.

In the Control mirror, Monkey definitely gets to be played, and it means that instead of a hand full of weak answers (and card draw), you get to put minions on the board. That's what ultimately wins the game for you.

Volthawk

2016-04-19, 10:25 PM

See the post I quoted above. C'thun and the various C'thun synergy cards will not be present in Arena, because of their extremely limited synergy. They'll only appear if you get them randomly through something like Unstable Portal, in which case ha ha sucks to be you?

To be fair, as far as potentially bad portal results go, most C'thun cards aren't that bad. They've generally got pretty decent stats for their cost (2 mana 2/3, 6 mana 7/6 etc) so even without C'thin you won't be too sad to get them and just play them for their body, particularly with the discount.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-19, 10:30 PM

I went back to the thread; only Gray Mage and Gandariel didn't think it'd be good (you did say you'd come back when it was super popular, so here you are ;) ). Everybody else was either positive or thinking it could see use in some kind of new deck. Special shoutout to Destro_Yersul who correctly predicted it would used in Aggro decks and that it'd be a strong card.

Trump also thought it'd be good.

To be fair, I did say 'strong' instead of 'amazingsauce' so I was wrong there. :smalltongue:

There were a lot of cards we ended up being wrong about, one way or the other. I don't think any of us predicted Dr. Boom would be as good as he turned out to be.

So, I've saved up a fair bit of dust, and while I'm not looking to spend any of it until the new stuff drops, I am curious: What are your guys' top five picks for Classic legendary cards? I've been collecting almost exclusively Classic packs since day on, so I should always have options in Standard. I've got most of the commons and rares, as well as a decent pick of epics, and a handful of the Legendary ones. But since I have the dust, I'm left wondering what I might want to grab next.

Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Jaraxxus, Tirion, Antonidas. In no particular order, off the top of my head without looking at the collection. Ysera would be my pick for 6th.

Zevox

2016-04-19, 10:34 PM

To be fair, as far as potentially bad portal results go, most C'thun cards aren't that bad. They've generally got pretty decent stats for their cost (2 mana 2/3, 6 mana 7/6 etc) so even without C'thin you won't be too sad to get them and just play them for their body, particularly with the discount.
Honestly, by the same token, I don't see why C'Thun cards need to be excluded from Arena. They're generally fine or good on raw stats even without the buff or synergy. Heck, the 4/2 divine shield for 4 might even be a candidate to replace Shredder as one of the stronger 4-drops even in non-C'Thun decks. And both of the Druid C'Thun cards are almost certainly just good even without C'Thun synergy - one's a Yeti, the other is a 5/7 taunt for 6.

Fleeing Coward

2016-04-19, 10:40 PM

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-19, 11:40 PM

Honestly, by the same token, I don't see why C'Thun cards need to be excluded from Arena. They're generally fine or good on raw stats even without the buff or synergy. Heck, the 4/2 divine shield for 4 might even be a candidate to replace Shredder as one of the stronger 4-drops even in non-C'Thun decks. And both of the Druid C'Thun cards are almost certainly just good even without C'Thun synergy - one's a Yeti, the other is a 5/7 taunt for 6.
Yeah, I'm definitely bummed we won't be seeing them in arena. They'd honestly really help pad out the cards you got in an arena draft, based on their stats, which are solidly vanilla.

Heck, it's not like C'thun synergy is the most out-there synergy you'd get offered in a draft. Think of those times you did a Paladin draft and got offered Anyfin Can Happen. Now there's synergy that's going to be even more impossible than C'thun synergy to coordinate, especially considering the "most recent set" bonus in arena. (Besides, there's far worse legendaries than C'thun that you could draft, even without synergy.)

Joran

2016-04-20, 12:27 AM

Nonsense. Especially the part about Power Word: Shield or Acolyte of Pain "causing you to lose" if you play them - Shield is a great card, and Acolyte fills an important role in Control Warrior, giving it card draw that it would otherwise lack. Elise is simply too slow - even if you get to the Golden Monkey, which you often won't, there's a good chance that a hand full of legendaries itself is going to be too slow to beat your opponent, barring situations where your opponent's deck has just run out of steam by then, which likely means they couldn't win anyway.

Elise has been around for a while, and I can honestly say I've never seen her as a threat. I've lost maybe one or two games to her in all this time, and those were flukes where the opponent drew the Monkey quickly and got great legends like Ragnaros and Tirion off it. It is not an impressive card.

Playing Acolyte of Pain or your Shield Blocks in the Control Warrior mirror is a game losing mistake. Control Warrior now is basically Fatigue Warrior with Elise as the win condition against other Control decks. It's become a tournament deck, along with Anyfin Can Happen Paladin with the caveat that the tournament meta is different than the ladder meta.

Haruspex_Pariah

2016-04-20, 01:11 AM

Got distracted by other games, so I only just got into this month's ranked business.

Brought my not meta but decently developed Shaman deck. Beat a guy who was running Bloodfen Raptors and Lord of the Arena. Victory never felt so bad.

Rodin

2016-04-20, 01:35 AM

Haruspex_Pariah

2016-04-20, 02:13 AM

Could be worse, you could have lost (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMpymIVBxMc). :smalltongue:

That was pretty funny, mostly due to his reactions throughout the video. I don't really follow Amaz, so I don't know if that's normal for him.

Mage is known to be solid straight out of the core set though. I believe Trump ran an FTP series using Mage for this reason.

Talion

2016-04-20, 03:23 AM

Update: It seems fate decided to chose for me; I got Malygos in a pack just a few minutes ago. That makes two legendaries in a week for me. And I still have all that lovely dust to work with.

Legoshrimp

2016-04-20, 06:55 AM

Yeah most of my game knowledge is from watching tournaments and streamers who are normally legend. Also kibler, but he doesn't really count for good elise decks :smalltongue:
I see a lot of elise.
My guess is control vs control isn't as common until r5-legend(just a guess).

I saw a hilarious game where a control warrior played deathlord to bring out golden monkey and at that point the game was over. There are just too many situational cards that control warrior has to overcome the enemy warrior being able to swap them out with playable cards.

PsyBomb

2016-04-20, 09:02 AM

Mando Knight

2016-04-20, 09:12 AM

Even if already in Fatigue, it resets your counter.

Your counter is not reset when you put cards back in your deck, it picks up where it left off as soon as you draw into Fatigue again.

Thialfi

2016-04-20, 09:25 AM

Looking at the revealed cards, there are more cards that I would like to have in my collection then I thought there would be. I still don't think a lot of cards are going to make there way into decks that I play, but there are several interesting cards like shadowcaster, embrace the shadow, and steward of darkshire that I want anyway.

I am still looking for a mage card that I'm going to use. The best card is in the 6 mana slot and just isn't going to be good enough to displace anything I have there. A good low cost minion would be nice.

I would love to see some low cost options for paladin. I would like to go back to a more controllish deck with N'Zoth as a finisher.

I would like a little more beast synergy for druid. They are pushing C'Thun hard for druid, but I'd really like to finally try out beast druid.

I need a replacement for Velen's chosen for my dragon priest, but I really want to try out Deathwing with Ysera, Chillmaw, and/or Chromaggus there.

I never play hunter, but this set makes me want to put together a mid range deck.

As soon as standard hits, I'm going to work Cairne and The Black Knight back into a lot of my decks.

PsyBomb

2016-04-20, 09:31 AM

Your counter is not reset when you put cards back in your deck, it picks up where it left off as soon as you draw into Fatigue again.

Huh, could have sworn I saw otherwise... feel free to ignore me.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-20, 10:09 AM

That was pretty funny, mostly due to his reactions throughout the video. I don't really follow Amaz, so I don't know if that's normal for him.

Yeah, that's pretty standard Amaz. xD (Some people say he overreacts. I don't care, I'm entertained.)

Mando Knight

2016-04-20, 10:14 AM

Yeah, that's pretty standard Amaz. xD (Some people say he overreacts. I don't care, I'm entertained.)

I think most streamers intentionally overreact. Visibly playing up what they're thinking is more entertaining, gives better insight to the streamer's frame of reference than more subtle reactions, and basically serves as a "reverse poker face" to keep the audience attached to the game in general and the stream specifically.

EDIT:

New Brawl, Idols of Azeroth (30 Raven Idol brawl). Discover that Mage is considered the best class when it comes to flinging spells everywhere.

Card updates have been announced! (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20097355/)

Ancient of Lore: Only draws 1 card (was 2).

Force of Nature: Now costs 5 (was 6), summons three 2/2 Treants (no charge, no death)

Keeper of the Grove: Now a 2/2 (was 2/4).

Ironbeak Owl: Now costs 3 (was 2).

Big Game Hunter: Now costs 5 (was 3).

Hunter's Mark: Now costs 1 (was 0).

Blade Flurry: Now costs 4, only damages minions (was 2, damages all).

Knife Juggler: Now a 2/2 (was 3/2).

Leper Gnome: Now a 1/1 (was a 2/1).

Arcane Golem: Now costs 4/4, no Charge (was 4/2, Charge).

Molten Giant: Now costs 25 (was 20).

Master of Disguise: Stealth only lasts until your next turn (was permanent).

Kish

2016-04-20, 12:11 PM

They've announced the changes to basic cards: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20097355/ Summary: Ancient of Lore's 2-card option is becoming 1 card. Force of Nature will be a 5-cost card that summons 3 2/2 treants (no Charge, no die at end of turn). Keeper of the Grove now has 2 health (down from 4). Ironbeak Owl now costs 3 mana (up from 2). Big Game Hunter now costs 5 mana (up from 3). Hunter's Mark now costs 1 mana (up from 0). Blade Flurry now costs 4 mana (up from 2) and only hits minions, not the enemy hero. Knife Juggler now has 2 attack (down from 3). Leper Gnome now has 1 attack (down from 2). Arcane Golem now has 4 health (up from 2) and no longer has Charge. Molten Giant's base cost is 25 (up from 20). Master of Disguise now gives a minion stealth until your next turn, instead of until you break it.

Joran

2016-04-20, 12:14 PM

Was too slow on the typing, so here's my thoughts.

I'm fine with most of the changes, but the Blade Flurry one is terrible and they should feel bad. I never felt like Blade Flurry was OP and without Oil in Standard, it's difficult to buff a weapon to the big burst damage. I've done too many 1 damage blade flurries to make me think it's that OP. The mana cost increase is insanity.

As someone who played a few face decks and combo decks, Arcane Golem was an interesting card that I liked a lot, since the downside was important if you're playing on curve.

Volthawk

2016-04-20, 12:25 PM

So Arcane Golem is now another addition to the '3 mana 4/4 with a downside' club, joining dancing swords and the ogre in probably not getting used.

Joran

2016-04-20, 12:27 PM

So Arcane Golem is now another addition to the '3 mana 4/4 with a downside' club, joining dancing swords and the ogre in probably not getting used.

The 200 dust I'll get from dusting my non-golden versions will be useful...

It's a pity, I think my Golden Arcane Golem was my first golden card and I enjoyed him in my reno combolock until I crafted the Leeroy. I also used him in my Aggro Shaman and Face Hunter decks.

Hamste

2016-04-20, 12:38 PM

Ah, so I will probably switch my iron beak with spell breakers. Not sure if I remove them all together from my zoo or not or do the switch. Silence is just so good. Druid got hit so hard in this switch.

The Glyphstone

2016-04-20, 12:38 PM

Well, my Zoolock deck is officially dead, losing Creeper, Shredder, and now Golem.

ChaosOS

2016-04-20, 12:38 PM

Only reasoning I can see for Blade Flurry at 4 mana to be Flurry vs. Shadowflame, but Shadowflame is just way more exploitable than flurry ever was...

Joran

2016-04-20, 12:39 PM

Well, my Zoolock deck is officially dead, losing Creeper, Shredder, and now Golem.

Can still play it in Wild!... Wait, no you can't, oops.

Why are you using Arcane Golem instead of Leeroy or Doomguards?

Mando Knight

2016-04-20, 12:44 PM

With three Druid cards getting directly nerfed and since Druid also relied on BGH for more reliable big-stuff removal than its own options (ew, Mulch), it's pretty safe to say that basically all Druid players will be looking at their lists, even the ones that didn't rely on the FoN+Roar combo.

Avatar of Lore now has to compete with Nourish more directly (before it had a major advantage of also throwing down a 5/5 body), FoN is now relegated to only fitting zoo/token-ish decks, and who knows whether Keeper of the Wild will even be used now...

thirsting

2016-04-20, 12:44 PM

Whoa! I like ALL of those changes.

Well, except Ancient of Lore change makes me wonder if I'd ever pick that over Azure Drake anymore..?

The Glyphstone

2016-04-20, 12:45 PM

Can still play it in Wild!... Wait, no you can't, oops.

Why are you using Arcane Golem instead of Leeroy or Doomguards?

2x Golem, 1x Doomguard. Didn't have Leeroy and didn't feel like crafting him, had better reasons for my dust to exist.
./

Joran

2016-04-20, 12:59 PM

Avatar of Lore now has to compete with Nourish more directly (before it had a major advantage of also throwing down a 5/5 body), FoN is now relegated to only fitting zoo/token-ish decks, and who knows whether Keeper of the Wild will even be used now...

I'd still use Keeper. That 2 damage ping is really useful and silence is always helpful; the flexibility is awesome and the 2/4 traded so well with the 3/2 minions that Zoo was running a lot of.

Whoa! I like ALL of those changes.

Well, except Ancient of Lore change makes me wonder if I'd ever pick that over Azure Drake anymore..?

I was running both XD Although, now that combo's dead and buried, I wonder if the midrange druid needs that much card draw anymore.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-20, 01:08 PM

RIP Rogue. Seriously, that nerf is ridiculous.

Also, Arcane Golem sucks now. You're getting a subpar 4-drop and giving your opponent the ability to play a real 4-drop (or a 5-drop, if you're player 2).

The one interesting thing about these patch notes is how much like the Beta patch notes (and MOBA patch notes) these look, which is a nice, refreshing change from the stubborn "we're never buffing/nerfing ANYTHING" of days past. Too much to hope that it stays this way?

Chen

2016-04-20, 01:09 PM

FoN being 5 mana for 6/6 in stats distributed to 3 bodies actually isn't terrible since Savage roar still exists. Could still work in something like egg druid. I still like Keeper of the Grove as a 2/2 deal 2 or silence for 4 mana. It's significantly weaker but probably still justifiable to play as a 1 of in the deck, for flexibility. Ancient of Lore I'd say is completely unplayable now over something like Azure Drake though. I don't think the flexibility of the heal and +1/+1 in stats justifies 2 mana increase in cost.

BGH nerf is excellent. Still ok, but not a must include and devastating tempo swing. Owl probably needed to become at least 2/2 for 3 mana. Spellbreaker is 4/3 for 4. The difference in stats there is big for only a 1 mana difference.

Knife Juggler is still solid as 2/2. Leper gnome may not be playable as a 1/1 though might still be used in hyper-agro decks. Arcane golem won't be played as a 3 mana 4/4 with such a huge downside.

Hunter's Mark I'm indifferent about. Face hunter will have the spare mana to use it anyways for the most part. Midrange hunter too so I'm not sure it's a huge impact. Blade flurry is a ridiculous nerf. 2 more mana cost AND not hitting face? Really destroys that card. One nerf or the other would have been sufficient.

Molten Giant still playable, though far less powerful. Still works in Reno decks.

Master of Disguise. Eh wasn't used before, won't be used now. Good change overall though since it did limit design space.

turbo164

2016-04-20, 01:13 PM

Wow, seven cards lost their souls!

Ben Brode explained that keeping Warsong Commander a 3 mana 2/3 was important to preserve "the soul of the card" even after the ability was weakened far too much to deserve that poor statline.

Lore - Seems reasonable. Compares poorly to Azure Drake as mentioned, but sometimes you need a Guardian of Kings instead.
Force - Yep, a lot of people assumed it would either be this or only summon 2 chargers. Similar to Silver Hand Knight now...
Keeper - Ouch, this one pays quite a bit for the Choose One now compared to Spellbreaker; still better than Stormpike Commando for the other half.
Ironbeak Owl - Spellbreaker is 1 mana for +2/+2. Really odd they chose this route instead of the expected "silence target with 3 or less attack" or whatnot.
BGH - With Molten Giants coming later, this seems reasonable. Same cost as Hemet!
Hunters Mark - Now less betterer than Repentance! (...although Soggoth begs to differ)
Blade Flurry - Holy crap. This is more painful than...getting Blade Flurried for 7. I really don't think both nerfs were needed here.
Knife Juggler - Yep, this is the type of change I was hoping for, even though I feared the "soul of the card" would lead to them just nerfing the ability instead. Always seemed weird that this guy fought so much better than things like Crazed Alchemist and Mana Wraith, considering how good his ability was. Token decks will still run him, he just won't trade up as well on his own.
Leper Gnome - These were his early Beta stats iirc, and I don't think he saw much use...
Arcane Golem - Yeah...seems far worse than Swords.
Molten Giant - Slower/riskier...and no longer castable by Jaraxxus without a PSS or Emperor, lol.
Master of Disguise - Ability is much safer now (Rogue/Neutral can have Animated Armor/Malganis type things now!), statline's still a bit too low considering she was rarely used even with the permanent version. If they print more things like Validated Doomsayer (preferably with lower costs) then maybe she'd be ok.

Edit: Also, the fact that Alexstraza, Freeze Mage in general, and Divine Favor went unchanged has been pointed out on Reddit...as well as Holy Wrath being buffed by the Molten change lol.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-20, 01:20 PM

Appropriate reaction to the new nerfs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clY-vXJOw94)

Kish

2016-04-20, 01:21 PM

Wow, seven cards lost their souls!
Gul'Dan: *burp* Pardon me.

Gandariel

2016-04-20, 01:35 PM

Sad about Blade Flurry nerf, everything else is good. Well I probably would have made other kinds of changes, but I'm happy overall.

Hope they give Rogue some new good cards!!

Keeper of the Grove will still see a lot of play IMO, since it's still pretty amazing.
It also got buffed in the Priest matchup, since it'll be easier to kill when he changes his mind!

Chen

2016-04-20, 01:42 PM

Edit: Also, the fact that Alexstraza, Freeze Mage in general, and Divine Favor went unchanged has been pointed out on Reddit...as well as Holy Wrath being buffed by the Molten change lol.

Yeah kinda surprised at Freeze mage staying intact. Divine favor is a slow catch up card. It worked well when paladin's early game was so strong. But their early game got gutted with the loss of minibot and muster. Weaker jugglers and leper gnomes make agro paladin more difficult too.

Thialfi

2016-04-20, 01:44 PM

Well, I said I was going to give beast druid a shot. This is a definite push.

Aggro got hit pretty good, especially face hunter. I'm really hoping a mid range hunter becomes popular.

Poor, poor rogues. Let's hope the blade flurry and master of disguise nerf opens the door for them to be more creative with this class.

Molten giant seems like a huge nerf. So you have to get down to 10 health to get a 5 cost molten giant and be at 8 to pull the old molten/molten/argus combo? That is dangerously low.

Keeper seems like a big nerf. You give up +2/+1 over a supposedly weaker neutral minion to gain the damage versatility?

Legoshrimp

2016-04-20, 01:46 PM

Chen

2016-04-20, 01:59 PM

Patch notes: Druid dies for standard :smalltongue:

Wasn't the point of wild so that people could keep playing decks they liked? I guess that was just for if you didn't play druid or rogue.

The only really surprising thing here is removing rogue from the game.

Does rogue have any aoe other then fan?
There is skulker, and vanish.
lol rogue needs a two card combo that costs seven mana to have a worse flamestrike.
Yes it can be split over two turns, but still kind of silly.

Owl is still probably better then spellbreaker. 90% of the time its body is irreverent.

The only thing I can see is that getting rid of flurry the way the did allows them to print better rogue weapons and better rogue weapon buffs. Those would be pretty untenable if Blade Flurry was the same as before. Still an overnerf in my opinion. Just removing the face damage would probably have been sufficient.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-20, 02:11 PM

The only thing I can see is that getting rid of flurry the way the did allows them to print better rogue weapons and better rogue weapon buffs. Those would be pretty untenable if Blade Flurry was the same as before. Still an overnerf in my opinion. Just removing the face damage would probably have been sufficient.
I feel like that shows a lack of creativity in weapon design. Rogue doesn't need to have Warrior weapons. Perdition's Blade is already an example of a sort of effect that doesn't rely on giving a weapon big stats. They could've easily decided that Warriors get big weapons, Rogues get weapons with cool effects. Blade Flurry in the Warrior class would be OP, but Blade Flurry in a class that needs to buff its weapon to get any damage out of it is fine and balanced.

PsyBomb

2016-04-20, 02:48 PM

Wish the Owl got a second point of toughness, 2/1 for 3 is harsh. Might delete it from my Zoo, but Warlock doesn't have other silences until Spellbreaker, which is unacceptable. Leper hurts, I'd much rather they shaved a point from the deathrattle so that it could still contest some 2-drops.

The rest I agree with, other than the Flurry nerf. Holy crap, that was unnecessary

Kish

2016-04-20, 02:53 PM

Yeah, I think I'll be switching out the Keepers from my druid deck for Spellbreakers.

Sith_Happens

2016-04-20, 03:07 PM

hereliesrogueshopesanddreams.jpg

TechnoWarforged

2016-04-20, 03:52 PM

Leper Gnome- Also an indirect nerf to Mekgineer Thermaplugg
BGH - The nerf really isn't that big of a deal considering you are playing BGH late in the game anyways.

The decks that were nerfed:
Miracle Rogue
OTK Druid (or any druid these days)
Echo Mage
Handlock
Aggro Pally
Face Hunter

I don't think we'll fully understand the reasoning of these nerfs until the new set comes out
However it's pretty obvious that Blizzard wanted minions to have more of a presence on the board and dislike OTK combos. I like the direction this is going but I'll still mourn the lost of fun decks such as Echo mage and Miracle, especially when Miracle is so unique and requires high skills to play.

Grytorm

2016-04-20, 03:55 PM

Hm. Sad for some of these changes. Really, I can see why they made a lot of these nerfs, but it seems like they always go for kind of overnerfing a bit.

Leper Gnome I get why they did this, though I will miss my little buddy.
Knife Juggler This seems like a very fair nerf, good call on this.
Ironbeak Owl Fair, I agree that not nerfing Spellbreaker with it is strange.
Big Game Hunter Okay, don't know if I will still run it. I think it was pretty good for the game a lot of the time.
Arcane Golem I don't really know why they chose to do this. Real question is, would you run this or Dancing Blades.
Molten Giant This is a bit unfair I think, would have been nice if they had made it 30 mana, but made it work with heals. Or maybe 15 and only work from your hand?
Hunter's Mark Fair enough. I probably wouldn't have done it, its usually been kind of the 31st card for me.
Master of Disguise Fair, would be amusing if they made it a 4/3 or 3/3 that stealthed itself along with something else.
Blade Fury What. Seriously. Either keep it at two with those changes, or let it hit face. Maybe even stop at 3 mana for the second solution.
Ancient of Lore Pretty fair. It would be interesting if they had made it a 4/6 and made Ancient of War choose between 4/10 Taunt and a normal 8/6.
Force of Nature Fair enough, personally I thought the combo was close to fine. But fair enough.
Keeper of the Grove Fair enough, I would guess it will see play as a one of. Wish it was a 2/3.
Warsong Commander Wish they had made it a one target battlecry or made the changes they made but gave the Commando charge.

Kish

2016-04-20, 03:59 PM

Arcane Golem I don't really know why they chose to do this.
Because they want the game to be more about board control and less about doing too much damage to your opponent too quickly to need to care about board control, than it has traditionally been.

PsyBomb

2016-04-20, 03:59 PM

Probably just going to swap my Lepers for Worgen I'm decks that weren't already running both. Leper is no longer worth the space, unless you are REALLY abusing deathrattle somehow.

Infernally Clay

2016-04-20, 04:10 PM

Yikes. The nerfs to the Druid cards are nuts. Keeper of the Grove, especially. Who the heck is gonna play it now it's a 2/2? The change to Force of Nature is pretty lame, too. I at least get why they did what they did but a five mana, summon three 2/2s just seems bad. Not quite Warsong Commander bad but close enough. Increasing Big Game Hunter's cost to five mana is excessive as well. They should've at least made it a five mana 3/2 that can kill any minion with 5 attack or more instead.

The Knife Juggler and Leper Gnome nerfs are fine. Arcane Golem is the new Dancing Swords, just with a much better effect. Giving your opponent a card was always worse than giving them a free mana crystal. Molten Giant's cost going up to 25 is ridiculous, though. That five mana difference will make a lot of difference in viability. I'm not sure about a card that at once was two mana when you were at 12 health but will now cost seven.

I think many of the nerfs are much too extreme. I know they wanted to lower the power creep but geeze... Blade Flurry is the perfect example of two nerfs rolled into one when either would have been fine by itself. Increasing the card's cost would've been enough to prevent the Oil > Oil > face > Blade Flurry combo, so I dunno why the had to make it so it only affected minions as well.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-20, 04:33 PM

Hmm, comments on the nerfs:

Ancient of Lore: Well, that makes sense. Guess everyone switches to Azure Drakes now?
Force of Nature: I actually really like this. It allows Druid to keep Savage Roar while still removing the combo and not making FoN useless. I like that they dropped the mana cost to reflect the removal of utility, as well.
Keeper of the Grove: Will probably still get used, though it's no longer anywhere near as good. Would have been nice if the dropped it to 3 mana.
Ironbeak Owl: I think I would have preferred to see a clause on the silence effect, but oh well. At 3 mana the owl loses a bit of versatility. It's still probably not going anywhere, so I guess weakness to silence will still be a consideration.
BGH: Got the fun in my sights. Makes me a bit sad, since some classes don't have the powerful removal options they talk about. I guess those ones will still run BGH? At least they didn't change his stats or effect, but playing him as tempo is no longer valid.
Hunter's Mark: Was probably unnecessary.
Blade Flurry: Removing the face damage and making the card only effect enemy minions makes way more sense. I don't think they needed to increase the mana cost on top of that.
Knife Juggler: Nooooo! In all seriousness, this is another one I don't think was super necessary. Knife Juggler was only run in certain types of decks to begin with. He was always a strong choice, but he wasn't ubiquitous.
Leper Gnome: Hah, suck it, Aggro. On the other hand, Abusive Sergeant makes it into every deck as well. Poor Mekgineer Thermaplugg.
Arcane Golem: Oh hai, worse Dancing Swords.
Molten Giant: Huh, that's interesting. Slight buff to Holy Wrath. :smalltongue: This does make playing against Handlock a little easier, and playing Handlock a little more dangerous, since it's now much harder to get cheap giants.
Master of Disguise: And nobody was surprised. Card will still never get played.

Hamste

2016-04-20, 04:39 PM

I just saw the weirdest thing on Trump's twitch. If you get majordomo into becoming a Ragnaros you count as a druid for the idols.

TechnoWarforged

2016-04-20, 04:50 PM

boomwolf

2016-04-20, 04:51 PM

I guess it's because Rag has no class and some sort of default was needed. And as normally only a druid has that card, that's what they chose.
Though I guess priest could steal one...

Kish

2016-04-20, 04:57 PM

There's no way that blizzard would change BGH to target Minion with 5+ attack instead of 7+. From a card design perspective BGH is a release valve that serve to keep big minions in check.
Yeah, they explicitly said they weren't planning on buffing any cards this pass, so there was no chance they'd give Big Game Hunter a massive buff like that (even if someone thought it needed a buff rather than a nerf, which...it really, really didn't).

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-20, 05:01 PM

I still think BGH will still be run:

1. The tempo for hearthstone is slowed down due to these nerfs so chances are you'll see more bigger minions in decks, and therefore more targets for BGH
2. You can consider BGH has a combination of two cards, A) a worst Power word: Death, and B) a 4/2. Power Word: Death cost 3 mana, and 2 cost summoning card should give you a 3/2 ala Raptor and some beast synergy. Then you compare it to BGH which rolled all these two effects into one card so BGH is very balanced and BGH will still be valued as long as the battlecry can be triggered.

There's no way that blizzard would change BGH to target Minion with 5+ attack instead of 7+. From a card design perspective BGH is a release valve that serve to keep big minions in check.
Before the nerf, BGH wasn't a huge sacrifice, because you could always put it out as a mediocre 3-drop. Now, it's definitely a tech card, and it probably should've been costed at 5 to begin with. Costing 3 let it have HUGE tempo swings, since you'd lose a big minion and they'd play a 4/2. Then use the rest of their mana. (BGH + Boom was one really irksome play to face.)

So now, BGH has an opportunity cost, which is fantastic.

Anxe

2016-04-20, 05:10 PM

Kish

2016-04-20, 05:20 PM

Molten Giant is an interesting card, but it’s too easy for players to reduce its mana cost to 0. We’re increasing Molten Giant’s mana cost to 25 to increase the risks players must take to get a free Giant. The changes to Force of Nature and Arcane Golem will make dropping to low health somewhat less risky as well, which helped spur this change.

Beyond what they said, if you think the general trend of the changes is toward attacking the hero being more advisable, I'm kind of mystified. We'll see what happens, though.

TechnoWarforged

2016-04-20, 05:25 PM

Now this is story time for Techonwarforge: Once upon a time when dinosaurs still roams the earth, Techno play Rogue as his first character in World of Warcraft. Eventhough HE spend countless nights spamming LFG in trades chat in ironforge once he hit 60 when half the server is littered with Rogues, he still had fun with that class. Techo admit Rogue was maybe a bit OP, but he used his stealth mainly to do quest peacefully, taking advantage of game mechanics to make his life easier, and never gank newbie hordes.

However the Gods of Blizzard decree that Rogues are OP, especially when some douche made a video called "World of Roguecraft" and nerfed Rogues to the point no one plays them. Techno still wanted to stealth so he rolled a Druid instead and level it to 60 in Restoration spec because it's the only viable spec. It all turned out well in the end because everyone love healers and Techno Gets to raid MC.

The reason why Techno is bring this up is that history tend to repeat itself: Blizzard doesn't know how to balance class that has unique mechanics and the recent nerf shows that. Take away Rogue's potential for burst damage and you got a class that doesn't do anything well but still has it's inherit shortcoming. Mainly the lack of board clear, the reliance of combos, and a clear lack of a distinct identity.

Techno hasn't played WoW for a while but last time he checked, it's way easier to just autoshot with hunter then to play a rogue. Then again all they every do is 1,1,1,2... 1,1,1,2.

So is the nerf to Molten Giant to remove the "does my opponent have Molten Giant mini game?"
If I was playing against a handlock deck I'd avoid bringing them below ~15 so I could make sure they couldn't giant and taunt or Shadowflame. Then I'd aim for the kill on the next turn. Are they trying to make it so "attacking your opponent is always the right strategy?"

Your opponent always have Molten Giant, Always! It's always Giant, Giant, shield's up, and "WE ARE GONNA BE RICH" *Da-da, da da dum dada*

Also the sweet spot for play against handlock is 14 health.

BRC

2016-04-20, 05:30 PM

So is the nerf to Molten Giant to remove the "does my opponent have Molten Giant mini game?"
If I was playing against a handlock deck I'd avoid bringing them below ~15 so I could make sure they couldn't giant and taunt or Shadowflame. Then I'd aim for the kill on the next turn. Are they trying to make it so "attacking your opponent is always the right strategy?"
I think Blizzard disliked somebody being able to drop two 8/8s for free while at the relative safety of 10HP. 10HP is dangerous, even against an empty board, but it's much safer than 5 HP. It's also a lot easier to get to 10 or 11 HP without putting yourself in serious danger.

Lets say you have a Reno Jackson in hand, so you don't care how low you go.

Your opponent is threatening, lets say, 7 Damage to face. You could stop it, or you could let them do it.
If you're at 17 HP, that's a fairly easy calculation, assuming you know they can't double-fireball you, or Force of Roar, or some other big burst damage combo. They'll hold onto their burst until they can get Lethal, or use it for removal. There are relatively few things that could burst you down from 10HP, and a canny player can know when they're off the table.
So, you let them take the swing, drop your Moltens, and still have 10 mana to play with.

Post-Nerf. That same scenario requires you to be at 12 HP, and requires letting your opponent bring you down to 5 with what they have on board. There are a LOT of things that can tack an extra 5 damage onto a turn. So, getting free Moltens becomes much harder.

Sith_Happens

2016-04-20, 05:36 PM

Something that just occurred to me, I wonder if the Big Game Hunter nerf will do anything to let potential alternatives to Dr. Boom see more play in Wild.

Mando Knight

2016-04-20, 05:45 PM

Something that just occurred to me, I wonder if the Big Game Hunter nerf will do anything to let potential alternatives to Dr. Boom see more play in Wild.

Companions to Dr. Boom, not alternatives. Sparky Uberthruster isn't going anywhere in Wild for a while.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-20, 06:11 PM

The reason why Techno is bring this up is that history tend to repeat itself: Blizzard doesn't know how to balance class that has unique mechanics and the recent nerf shows that. Take away Rogue's potential for burst damage and you got a class that doesn't do anything well but still has it's inherit shortcoming. Mainly the lack of board clear, the reliance of combos, and a clear lack of a distinct identity.

It's okay, because Rogues have the Combo mechanic, which automatically means they're cool and viable, right? :smalltongue:

Zevox

2016-04-20, 06:25 PM

I would like a little more beast synergy for druid. They are pushing C'Thun hard for druid, but I'd really like to finally try out beast druid.
That new Mark card that gives +2/+2 and draws if cast on a beast is probably one of the most solid cards in the set. That alone might be enough to make Beast Druid a thing.

Card updates have been announced! (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20097355/)

Ancient of Lore: Only draws 1 card (was 2).

Force of Nature: Now costs 5 (was 6), summons three 2/2 Treants (no charge, no death)

Keeper of the Grove: Now a 2/2 (was 2/4).

Ironbeak Owl: Now costs 3 (was 2).

Big Game Hunter: Now costs 5 (was 3).

Hunter's Mark: Now costs 1 (was 0).

Blade Flurry: Now costs 4, only damages minions (was 2, damages all).

Knife Juggler: Now a 2/2 (was 3/2).

Leper Gnome: Now a 1/1 (was a 2/1).

Arcane Golem: Now costs 4/4, no Charge (was 4/2, Charge).

Molten Giant: Now costs 25 (was 20).

Master of Disguise: Stealth only lasts until your next turn (was permanent).
Wow, I'm impressed. Most of those are perfectly fine, reasonable changes, and I think many still leave the cards playable (if they were in the first place - sorry, Master of Disguise). Force of Nature might even fit into new Druid decks in a very different role than it had before, which could be interesting.

The notable exception that everybody has already called out being Blade Flurry, of course. That one is borderline Starving Buzzard levels of overdoing it, and unlike Buzzard I don't even see much reason to nerf Blade Flurry in the first place. If they really wanted to avoid Oil Rogue-esque burst damage from the card being a thing in the future, they could have just made it not hit face, and that would've been perfectly fine - there was definitely no need to double its cost.

I do think people are right that Owl should've gotten a health buff at the least in exchange for that cost increase, but oh well. Either the cheaper cost will keep it as the silence card of choice despite that or people will move to Spellbreaker instead, we'll see which is is. And yeah, Arcane Golem is surely into the unplayable category now, but meh, you'll not see me shedding any tears over aggro losing a card like that. And I agree that it's possible Ancient of Lore ceases to see play in favor of Azure Drake and perhaps a more efficient healing card like Refreshment Vendor if Druids decide they need that, which is sad - I'm honestly not sure that one needed a nerf either, but I guess I can see an argument for it. Oh well.

I am glad that BGH is probably still playable as a meta tech card, and the only change that hit Handlock isn't too bad either, and nothing at all was done to Control Warrior or Freeze Mage. So, overall, I'm pretty happy with this.

Rodin

2016-04-20, 06:45 PM

Zevox

2016-04-20, 06:50 PM

Hmmm, checking the list of revealed cards vs. the announced ones, It looks like there's ~75-ish that have been revealed and 134 cards in the set. That's quite a lot that we don't know yet.

I'm guessing that's normal...wouldn't really know since this is the first non-adventure release that I've been around for. It leaves a lot of room for surprises, that's for sure.
That's normal, yeah. If it's like the last couple of times there should be a big dump of whatever cards are left to be revealed sometime just before the actual release - possibly over the weekend or even as late as Monday.

Sith_Happens

2016-04-20, 08:17 PM

It's okay, because Rogues have the Combo mechanic, which automatically means they're cool and viable, right? :smalltongue:

["This guy's toast" intensifies]

The Glyphstone

2016-04-20, 08:36 PM

That's normal, yeah. If it's like the last couple of times there should be a big dump of whatever cards are left to be revealed sometime just before the actual release - possibly over the weekend or even as late as Monday.

The Livestream tomorrow (Thursday) will be revealing the remaining cards, apparently. Starts 10AM Pacific time.

Zevox

2016-04-20, 08:52 PM

The Livestream tomorrow (Thursday) will be revealing the remaining cards, apparently. Starts 10AM Pacific time.
:smallconfused: In the middle of the day on a weekday, when most people are either in school or at jobs? Seems like an odd choice to me, but whatever I suppose.

moossabi

2016-04-20, 09:16 PM

Lorewalker Cho is hilarious in this brawl.:smalltongue:

The Glyphstone

2016-04-20, 09:23 PM

Lorewalker Cho is hilarious in this brawl.:smalltongue:

Fel Reaver is hilarious in this brawl. Hilariously terrible, at least.

PsyBomb

2016-04-20, 09:33 PM

Fel Reaver is hilarious in this brawl. Hilariously terrible, at least.

Accidentally Fatigued myself out due to an Auctioneer when I was Warrior questing earlier.

Zevox

2016-04-20, 09:35 PM

Rogue seems pretty good this Brawl. The Idols mean you always have combo enablers, so even something like Kidnapper can be very good, and their spells are mostly cheap and potent for their cost, which helps keep things under control. And Edwin Van Cleef is just win incarnate.

Rosstin

2016-04-20, 09:42 PM

The nerfs were huge but I'm happy with them. It should make the game more interesting going forward.

I wouldn't really mind that much if most of the classic set was nerfed into the ground. I don't want to play with Classic cards. I want awesome expansion cards. Maybe a handful of classic spells are good for class identity but eh.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-20, 09:48 PM

Lorewalker Cho is hilarious in this brawl.:smalltongue:
I utterly wrecked a Mage who played double Cho and gave me a Mirror Entity. It was pretty funny. Just kept stuffing their hand with Raven Idols, and then playing other spells.

Mando Knight

2016-04-20, 10:42 PM

The nerfs were huge but I'm happy with them.
Except for Knife Juggler. -1 attack is a slap on the wrist, really.

I wouldn't really mind that much if most of the classic set was nerfed into the ground. I don't want to play with Classic cards. I want awesome expansion cards. Maybe a handful of classic spells are good for class identity but eh.
If they nerfed them all into uselessness, then there'd be no point in keeping the Classic set as part of Standard, would there?

Joran

2016-04-20, 11:04 PM

Lorewalker Cho is hilarious in this brawl.:smalltongue:

Emperor was a ridiculous draw on turn 7. Free Raven Idols!

Rosstin

2016-04-20, 11:10 PM

Except for Knife Juggler. -1 attack is a slap on the wrist, really.

If they nerfed them all into uselessness, then there'd be no point in keeping the Classic set as part of Standard, would there?

Exactly, right? That's one of the cooler things about MTG, especially now that they've done away with "Core Sets".

Granted, you can't please everyone, and there are many different audiences the game has to appeal to. In Hearthstone, with the release speed and the gold accumulation speed in the game, it has become trivial for a veteran player like me to have pretty much every relevant card in every expansion, so a fast rotation with no staples wouldn't really bother me. But for other players it could be bad.

I can look at Magic for comparison. As much as I like that game, I have no interest in chasing down the cards necessary to make a standard deck, even though I play Limited at the local store fairly often. It would just be too time-consuming and expensive.

The good thing about Hearthstone's Core Set is that there are at least some cards that stick around, so if you play the game then quit for two years it's slightly easier to come back. In Magic if you quit for two years you are just out of standard until you buy back in in a big way.

Qwertystop

2016-04-20, 11:28 PM

Yeah... If they didn't keep any cards in the rotation indefinitely, anyone who didn't play for a while (not necessarily a full year - one expansion would be enough if most of their cards were from the older one) would have to play just Wild and the you-can't-build-your-deck Brawls until they got enough gold or dust to put together a Standard deck. And they'd be playing Wild with an old Standard deck, which would be unlikely to go well.

A good set of baseline cards in Standard prevents that, and also holds back power creep a little.

otakuryoga

2016-04-21, 12:09 AM

Increasing Big Game Hunter's cost to five mana is excessive as well. They should've at least made it a five mana 3/2 that can kill any minion with 5 attack or more instead.

good gawds no
that would be auto-include territory

moossabi

2016-04-21, 12:12 AM

At least the Majordomo fight will be much easier! :smallbiggrin:

Haruspex_Pariah

2016-04-21, 12:21 AM

Both times I played Druid in this Brawl I Discovered into Force/Roar. Might as well, since it's going to be gone for good soon enough.

Then I had a Priest mirror where the enemy managed to get Elise twice! While I held the board with a fearsome pair of Nat Pagle and Lightwell. When he got the Monkey out (and why wouldn't he) the first thing he dropped was Avina with Rafaam soon after. Then I play Deathwing, which is normally pretty sad against a Priest with a hand full of Discover opportunities, but he was undone by his own Monkey.

Legoshrimp

2016-04-21, 02:02 AM

:smallconfused: In the middle of the day on a weekday, when most people are either in school or at jobs? Seems like an odd choice to me, but whatever I suppose.
Probably so people not in NA can watch it. It is at 7pm for me.

The nerfs were huge but I'm happy with them. It should make the game more interesting going forward.

I wouldn't really mind that much if most of the classic set was nerfed into the ground. I don't want to play with Classic cards. I want awesome expansion cards. Maybe a handful of classic spells are good for class identity but eh.

Except for Knife Juggler. -1 attack is a slap on the wrist, really.

If they nerfed them all into uselessness, then there'd be no point in keeping the Classic set as part of Standard, would there?

I think classic is probably too big of a set. I guess they don't want the meta to change that much.

378 cards in classic.

132 TGT
134 old gods
31 blackrock
45 league
342 total in standard

So over half of the cards in standard are going to be from the classic set for most of the year.
Or maybe a bit less then half if they start releasing two expansions and one adventure a year.

I guess it makes sense for new/returning players to always be able to play standard with 0 expansions at a slight disadvantage, but it also means things probably won't change that much from expansion to expansion.

Also on the nerfs this is actually a low number of cards. I guess they will be taking a more active approach in balancing then they previously have, and stated they wanted to. Another problem with wild is standard is always going to be the focus of balance. Play only wild? your favorite deck might get nerfed because it is too powerful in standard, even though it isn't good in wild.

I am going to guess with every expansion, or possibly year they are going to nerf a new set of classic cards because they are just too good in standard. Or expansions will just be releasing at a higher power level then classic.

So my guess is keeping roughly half of the cards in standard constant is:
It helps new/returning players, but is going to hurt keeping standard interesting, make balance harder, and force balance changes in wild that are unnecessary.
It might be better for wild long term because it forces standard to stay roughly on par with the classic set, but this also makes standard change less from expansion to expansion.

Hmm so I wonder how they are going to deal with the first card that is interesting to good in standard, but completely game breaking in wild.

I am trying to think of another mechanic that would help returning players, but doesn't hurt their business model.
The simplest idea is you can DE out of standard cards for full value, but that would mean if you are only interested in standard you would fairly quickly reach a point that there is no incentive to buy packs.
Maybe something like you can DE x dust worth of cards for full value per standard rotation/expansion?

Edit: One thing I am kind of assuming is that along the axis of stagnation - changing more change is always better. This is obviously true the closer to stagnated the meta is, but when/if would there be too much change in the meta? I doubt it is possible to reach this with half of the playable set staying the same, but would the meta being completely changed 3 times a year, assuming they do switch to a 2 expac and 1 adventure a year release schedule, be too much change? This is probably a pretty subjective question that relies on player/watcher preference. I feel like it would probably be good for the competitive scene, and generally more enjoyable to watch.

Rosstin

2016-04-21, 02:14 AM

Zevox, I agree with the likely future that standard cards will get worse and worse. I think the sets might end up getting a little bigger even.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-21, 10:07 AM

Chen

2016-04-21, 10:18 AM

I had a random thought--why are they announcing Hearthstone nerfs before WotOG shakes up the meta? That seems like the exact wrong time to do so, now that I think about it. Blizzard's HS team can't see the future. Remember how they were convinced that Inspire effects were going to totally shake up the meta? Yeah, look how that panned out. (And I'm pretty sure they never considered the possibility of an Anyfin Can Happen combo deck; they just intended for Anyfin to spawn a bunch of murlocs.)

What I'm seeing is that they're nerfing cards based on assumptions that they're making about what the new meta is going to look like, and/or based on the prior meta, while simultaneously releasing new cards that will change the meta more.

I'd be extremely surprised if they didn't foresee Anyfin combo. It's a slow combo that has counter play to it and doesn't really seem to be a problem.

I'm pretty sure they're nerfing certain cards now so that the meta will shake up even more with the new cards. Having combo druid be the top of the Standard ladder for a long while would have been somewhat disruptive to determining the new card power and the like.

Gandariel

2016-04-21, 10:25 AM

I had a random thought--why are they announcing Hearthstone nerfs before WotOG shakes up the meta?.

couple reasons.

First, the meta won't exist for some time after the release. People will need to refine and adjust, and so on.
So you'd be delaying the nerf, again, for a month or so.

Second, the new expansion is balanced on the NEW Classic set.

For example, I dearly hope Blizzard is releasing some incredibly powerful weapons and weapon buffs for Rogue, that would make the class OP unless they nerf Blade Flurry.

Since they know they have to nerf it, might as well do it now, instead of having a month of OP rogues.

Same applies in the other direction: if they have a card that combos extremely well with New force of nature (but is useless otherwise), it would never see play for a month.

Kish

2016-04-21, 10:33 AM

(And I'm pretty sure they never considered the possibility of an Anyfin Can Happen combo deck; they just intended for Anyfin to spawn a bunch of murlocs.)
:smallconfused: Huh? What are you saying about Anyfin Can Happen? That they never expected it to actually be used, or that they expected it would be used in some way they didn't put any thought into but not as part of a combo deck?

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-21, 10:42 AM

:smallconfused: Huh? What are you saying about Anyfin Can Happen? That they never expected it to actually be used, or that they expected it would be used in some way they didn't put any thought into but not as part of a combo deck?
Not only does their deck recipe for Anyfin use a combo that has no resemblance to the actual Anyfin combo, but the combo also goes counter to their design preferences, despite being slow and having some counterplay (see how they nerfed Force/Savage, and Anyfin can deal far more damage than that). I mean, I love and play the deck, but I'll even admit that certain matchups (Priest, for example) are basically 80/20 in my favor, where the only counterplay is to capitalize on any mistakes I make, which is a very unlikely possibility. (And "can capitalize on your mistakes" is not really good counterplay.) Most tellingly, they intentionally chose to let Murk-Eye leave Standard rotation through a technicality.

My money's on "they didn't see this combo coming". It seems clear to me that their intent for Anyfin was for it to be similar to Everyfin: it would enable a Murloc Paladin that put lots of Murlocs on the board via Murloc Knight and other murlocs in the deck, then brought them back to retain a powerful board. (Unfortunately, this was way too weak and unreliable.)

PsyBomb

2016-04-21, 10:46 AM

couple reasons.
Same applies in the other direction: if they have a card that combos extremely well with New force of nature (but is useless otherwise), it would never see play for a month.

New Force actually goes moderately well in Beast Druid, given cards like Power of the Wild. New form might even open up Token Druid. While it's not The Combo anymore, Druid has a lot that can put bodies on the field and then take advantage of this fact. Probably going to try to build something along these lines once I get my first three actual decks up and running.

Force, Living Roots, Power of the Wild, Cenarius, Roar... might be fun.

Legoshrimp

2016-04-21, 11:26 AM

Not only does their deck recipe for Anyfin use a combo that has no resemblance to the actual Anyfin combo, but the combo also goes counter to their design preferences, despite being slow and having some counterplay (see how they nerfed Force/Savage, and Anyfin can deal far more damage than that). I mean, I love and play the deck, but I'll even admit that certain matchups (Priest, for example) are basically 80/20 in my favor, where the only counterplay is to capitalize on any mistakes I make, which is a very unlikely possibility. (And "can capitalize on your mistakes" is not really good counterplay.) Most tellingly, they intentionally chose to let Murk-Eye leave Standard rotation through a technicality.

My money's on "they didn't see this combo coming". It seems clear to me that their intent for Anyfin was for it to be similar to Everyfin: it would enable a Murloc Paladin that put lots of Murlocs on the board via Murloc Knight and other murlocs in the deck, then brought them back to retain a powerful board. (Unfortunately, this was way too weak and unreliable.)

Anyfin is dead with the removal of old murk eye.

Also not being in the deck list doesn't mean not anticipated.

They aren't nerfing something with the expectation that it will be overpowered in standard.
They are nerfing things that are already op, and we know that they are op. There is no point in waiting and seeing if these cards are going to be OP in standard, because they only get better then they are now and they are already really powerful->op.

Edit: also anyfin's value pretty obviously goes down the more turns you use murloc knight.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-21, 12:11 PM

couple reasons.

First, the meta won't exist for some time after the release. People will need to refine and adjust, and so on.
So you'd be delaying the nerf, again, for a month or so.

Second, the new expansion is balanced on the NEW Classic set.

For example, I dearly hope Blizzard is releasing some incredibly powerful weapons and weapon buffs for Rogue, that would make the class OP unless they nerf Blade Flurry.

Since they know they have to nerf it, might as well do it now, instead of having a month of OP rogues.

Same applies in the other direction: if they have a card that combos extremely well with New force of nature (but is useless otherwise), it would never see play for a month.
I think those are both a testament to their desire to emulate physical games. If you compare to Heroes of the Storm, HotS constantly sees new content that shifts the meta, and the design team there only tweaks after they've had a chance to see how things shake out. (I'm inclined to think this is partially because Dustin has already had a ton of experience from managing Starcraft 2.)

In a dynamic game, it doesn't make sense to balance things around the meta you expect, unless you're really certain the meta is going to go in one direction.

Mando Knight

2016-04-21, 12:27 PM

Stream is live. (https://www.twitch.tv/playhearthstone)

Ben Brode just announced that you get up to 10 more WOG packs by winning 2 and then 7 Standard games.

Kish

2016-04-21, 12:30 PM

I guess they don't want people just ignoring Standard and playing Wild.

PsyBomb

2016-04-21, 12:32 PM

Lots of new pirates are popping up on the stream. I'll post them here as I can, I don't type quite fast enough to catch it all

Bloodsail Cultist: 3 mana 3/4 Pirate, if you control another Pirate give your weapon +1/+1

Blood Ichor: Warrior spell, 1 mana. Deal 1 damage to a minion, if it survives summon a 2/2 slime

Warrior Minon, 4 mana 2/6 taunt, Enrage +3 attack

Feral Rage: Druid spell, 3 mana, either gain 8 armor or gain +4 attack this turn

Will edit more info here as I can

7 mana 6/5 legendary for warriors, battlecry equip a random weapon

There is a 4 mana neutral pirate (missed the stats) that makes your weapons cost 2 lest

Doomcaller: 8 mana neutral 7/9, give C'thun +2/+2, and if it's dead shuffle it into your deck (!)

Crazed Worshipper: Epic 3/6 neutral taunt for 5, Taunt, whenever it takes tamage give C'thun +1/+1

Forbidden Ancient: Druid minion, 1/1 for 1, gain +1/+1 for each remaining mana (and drain it, like the rest of the Forbiddens)

Fandral Staghelm: Druid legend 4 mana 3/5, your Choose One cards have both effects combined (in order where it matters, modal druids get the higher of both stats and all abilities with a new, third form)

The Glyphstone

2016-04-21, 12:33 PM

They're actually trying to make Pirates a serious deck apparently...

Mando Knight

2016-04-21, 12:44 PM

Fandral Staghelm: Druid legend 4 mana 3/5, your Choose One cards have both effects combined (in order where it matters, modal druids get the higher of both stats and all abilities with a new, third form)

This one is pretty insane if it sticks. Wrath is 4 damage, draw a card, Living Roots is deal 2 damage and summon two 1/1s, Ancient of War is a 10/10 Taunt...

PsyBomb

2016-04-21, 12:47 PM

Announced that your current rank will be your rank in both Standard and Wild on transition. Classes got new emotes as well.

Fiery Bat: 1 mana Hunter minion 2/1 Beast with Huge Toad deathrattle. Common (holy crap!)

Infested Wolf: 4 mana Hunter minion 3/3 deathrattle summon 2 1/1 spiders. Rare

Forbidden Ritual: 0 mana Warlock spell, summon that many 1/1 Icky Tentacles (not typed). Epic

Carrion Grub: 3 mana 2/5 Beast hunter minion. No effects. Common

Bilefin Tidehunter: 2 mana neutral 2/1 murlock, summon a 1/1 taunt Slime battlecry. Common

On the Hunt: 1 mana Hunter spell. Deal 1 damage, summon a 1/1 mastiff (vanilla token) Common

Darkshire Librarian: 2 mana 3/2, battlecry discards a random card, deathrattle draws a card. Common

Zealous Initiate: 1/1 for 1 neutral, deathrattle give a random friendly minion +1/+1

Twisted Worgen: 2 mana 3/1 stealth generic (common)

Darkshire Councilman: 3 mana 1/5, when you summon a minion gain +1 attack

Psych-o-tron: 5 mana 3/4 Taunt Divine Shield neutral common

Sian

2016-04-21, 12:52 PM

Fandral Staghelm would be a pretty fun card to build a deck around

PsyBomb

2016-04-21, 01:10 PM

Last bit before my data gives out:

Cyclopean Horror: 4 mana 3/3 neutral Epic. taunt, gain +1 health for each enemy minion.

OVERLOAD DOESN'T AFFECT YOU FROM CREATURE-CASTS... probably, might still change.

Flamewreathed Faceless: 5 mana shaman minion 7/7 Overload 2

Stormcrack: 2 mana shaman spell overload 1, deal 4 damage to a minion

Corrupted seer: 6(?) mana neutral 2/3 murlock, Deal 2 manage to all non-murlock minions

Evolve: 1 mana Shaman spell Transform all your minions into random ones that cost one more (holy crap!)

Darkspeaker: 5 mana 3/6 neutral (rare or epic, didn't catch it), swap stats with a friendly minion battlecry

Cabalist's Tome can officially hit itself again, commentary indicated that it happens a lot.

Eternal Sentinel: 2 mana shaman minion 3/2 battlecry unlocks your locked mana crystal (was wondering what would happen when lava shock cycled, now I know).

There will be a total of something like 13 free packs of Whispers for logging on and finishing 10 games of Standard. Much appreciated, and glad I didn't drop the cash for the preorder

Nerubian Prophet: 6 mana common neutral 4/4, at the start of your turn reduce this card's cost by 1 (!)

Primal Fusion: 1 mana Shaman spell, give a minion +1/+1 for each of your Totems

Watched him screw himself with a Yogg, but it put up a stack of Secrets and he ended up surviving long enough to kill with a Fireball

Anomalus: 8 mana 8/8 Mage Legendary, Deathrattle deal 8 damage to all minions

EDIT: I missed the Pally/Rogue/Priest cards, but they mentioned that they'll be going up soon to the Facebook page. Probably to OldGods as well.

EDIT2: aaand they're up on Facebook.

ChaosOS

2016-04-21, 01:30 PM

Initial impression: C'thun rogue is going to be a thing, Rogue has the cycle power to find C'thun while also having some of the stronger class C'thun cards.

Beelzebub1111

2016-04-21, 01:54 PM

I'm kind of most excited for Renounce Darkness. I don't care if it's terrible. I wonder if it will break the 2-card limit with the random gains. I think I'll put Yog in it just to emphasize the random theme.

Now that I think about it, Brann would cause the old gods to trigger twice, wouldn't he?

Kish

2016-04-21, 02:00 PM

Indeed. Which means leaving your opponent's Brann on the board when your opponent has 9 or 10 mana and already played one or more C'Thun-buffing card just became a lot more dangerous.

tonberrian

2016-04-21, 02:00 PM

Twilight Geomancer looks fun, though it's very win-more.

Sian

2016-04-21, 02:05 PM

Nat, The Darkfisher (Legendary 2mana 2/4: on your opponents turn they have 50% to draw an extra card) is, without a doubt going into my Fatigue Reno-Mage, and i suscept that Anomalus (Legendary 8mana Mage 8/6: Deathrattle 8 damage to all minions) and a single Shatter (Common 2mana Mage, destroy a frozen minion) would as well ...

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-21, 02:10 PM

Initial impression: C'thun rogue is going to be a thing, Rogue has the cycle power to find C'thun while also having some of the stronger class C'thun cards.
The only thing I haven't worked out for my planned C'thun Rogue is how I'm going to boardwipe. Prep-Vanish might be my only option. Otherwise, I'm planning on tempoing out minions, including C'thun minions (and there's some lovely picks), using Brann and Shadowstep to get more C'thun buffs, then cycling until I hit C'thun and unleash the havoc.

Kish

2016-04-21, 02:11 PM

Twilight Geomancer looks fun, though it's very win-more.
Details?

Is Anomalous 8/8 or 8/6?

tonberrian

2016-04-21, 02:15 PM

Details?

Is Anomalous 8/8 or 8/6?

Right sorry, neutral 2 mana 1/4 taunt, gives C'Thun taunt as well. Anomalous appears to be 8/6.

Joran

2016-04-21, 02:41 PM

Stream is live. (https://www.twitch.tv/playhearthstone)

Ben Brode just announced that you get up to 10 more WOG packs by winning 2 and then 7 Standard games.

They're also replacing the "Sorry" emote with a "Wow!" emote. I actually use the "Sorry" emote for its intended purpose...

P.S. I can't wait to try a Yogg-Saron deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLcz_pN0480
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhjDgGXokLc

Caution: Ben Brode is very loud.

Rodin

2016-04-21, 03:14 PM

Evolve looks like it might give Battlecry Shaman a way to survive in the late-game. Drop some of your cheaper battlecry minions for the effect, then finish off with Evolve to make them scary.

Also provides a great counter to a Face deck - trade with his cheap minions while keeping yours alive, then Evolve.

Needless to say, in Arena that spell is going to be bonkers.

Joran

2016-04-21, 03:18 PM

EDIT2: aaand they're up on Facebook.

They're also up on Imgur in case that's easier for you to hit.

http://imgur.com/a/IHMc1

Infernally Clay

2016-04-21, 03:39 PM

Just skimming and I saw Hooded Acolyte and Grotesque Dragonhawk. They could be fun. Journey Below is literally the Priest card without the body. Rallying Blade will be a bit of a weird one - gonna need some decent amount of set up before you get value out of it.

(and yes I mean fun as in Grotesque Dragonhawk + Bestial Wrath for 14 damage to the face)

Rodin

2016-04-21, 04:24 PM

Did they forget to put card text on Twilight Elemental or something? A 4/2 with no abilities for 3 is utterly terrible, especially when you consider Jungle Panther exists.

Edit: Just realized that's a token minion that comes off of one of the other cards.

Beelzebub1111

2016-04-21, 04:26 PM

P.S. I can't wait to try a Yogg-Saron deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLcz_pN0480
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhjDgGXokLc

Caution: Ben Brode is very loud.

Brilliant! Thinking of which neutrals to put in my Casino Warlock deck. Yogg-Saron, definitely. Justicar Trueheart and Sir Finley in case I get a less than ideal hero power. Any ideas for the rest?

Speaking of Trueheart, what would happen if you played her after playing Vilefin Inquisitor?

moossabi

2016-04-21, 04:31 PM

Brilliant! Thinking of which neutrals to put in my Casino Warlock deck. Yogg-Saron, definitely. Justicar Trueheart and Sir Finley in case I get a less than ideal hero power. Any ideas for the rest?

Speaking of Trueheart, what would happen if you played her after playing Vilefin Inquisitor?

2 murlocs?

Rodin

2016-04-21, 04:32 PM

I am immediately in love with Power Word: Tentacles. The thought of using that in an Inner Fire deck gives me tingles.

moossabi

2016-04-21, 04:34 PM

I am immediately in love with Power Word: Tentacles. The thought of using that in an Inner Fire deck gives me tingles.

It's much worse than Velen's Chosen though.

turbo164

2016-04-21, 04:35 PM

Darkspeaker may be my favorite design of the set. There are a lot of small minions that it can act like a Velen's Chosen for (Northshire Cleric, Acolyte of Pain, Knife Juggler, Flametongue Totem...) while pushing the original stats into basically a token; and like Crazed Alchemist, it can make temporary buffs permanent. And it's a 3/6 Charge if you have a minion available, although that minion doesn't get to swing that turn since it's now the fresh squidface... and it lets you split threats, like if your Holy Champion or Shade of Naxx get into BGH range, you can swing with your current 7, shift it into a new 7, and start re-growing your 3/6.

It just does a lot of neat things. I don't know if those things will be competitive, but I definitely want to experiment with it!

Joran

2016-04-21, 04:37 PM

Speaking of Trueheart, what would happen if you played her after playing Vilefin Inquisitor?

Nothing. Justicar only affects basic hero powers, so she doesn't do anything for Shadow Form priest power for instance.

Proof: https://twitter.com/PlayHearthstone/status/717062656767758336

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-21, 04:43 PM

Rodin

2016-04-21, 04:46 PM

It's much worse than Velen's Chosen though.

Overall, yes. Inner Fire decks don't really care about the spell damage though, and the extra 2 HP is worth 4 damage when you get the full combo off. If you're casting it on an ignored Tournament Medic, it's the difference between 24 and 28 damage, which could be critical if you're behind.

Also, Velen's Chosen is rotating out.

I'm not saying that Inner Fire decks will suddenly explode onto the meta or anything, but they're a deck that I've always had fun messing around with and this card is a perfect replacement for Velen's. Other priest decks will be a bit more sad - no more 3 damage Holy Novas for 8 mana.

ShinyRocks

2016-04-21, 05:00 PM

I really love a lot of the card art. Bloodsail Cultist, Shatter, A Light In The Darkness, that warlock Renounce one...

Doomcaller - that's the first every 'graveyard' card in HS, right? In a controlly deck, this could be massive. Get out your C'Thun, they deal with it somehow, oops, here it is again, stronger.

Stormcrack ... seems not good? (2 mana, overload 1, 4 damage to a minion). They're still not making cards that are strong enough that the overload is worth it and there's still not enough overload synergy. I may be wrong. Flamewreathed Faceless (7/7 for 4, 2 overload) is more what overload should be doing, I think.

Silver Hand Murloc is so cute I may have to break the habit of a lifetime and play *spit* Paladin.

Fandral Staghelm seems crazy fun. Druid of the Flame as 2 mana 5/5, ok, thanks, yes please. Wrath as a 2 mana, deal 4 damage, draw a card, ok, thanks, yes please. Even the newly-nerfed Keeper is 4 mana, summon a 2/2, deal 2 damage to a minion and silence it. OR, hopefully, Silence a minion and deal 2 damage to it - like an expensive Earth Shock with a body attached.

Joran

2016-04-21, 05:06 PM

Fandral Staghelm seems crazy fun. Druid of the Flame as 2 mana 5/5, ok, thanks, yes please. Wrath as a 2 mana, deal 4 damage, draw a card, ok, thanks, yes please. Even the newly-nerfed Keeper is 4 mana, summon a 2/2, deal 2 damage to a minion and silence it. OR, hopefully, Silence a minion and deal 2 damage to it - like an expensive Earth Shock with a body attached.

The developers said that it would do it in the order that's usually the most beneficial for you. So Wispers will create a board of 3/3 wisps (summon the wisps THEN buff). So, for Keeper, it'll Earth Shock (silence, then damage).

PsyBomb

2016-04-21, 05:13 PM

Given how many free Whispers packs we're getting, I'm going to dump my gold on about five GvG pack while they're still available.

Infernally Clay

2016-04-21, 05:20 PM

Fandral decks will be really fun. Mark of Nature being a +4/+4 with taunt buff, for example. Raven Idol gets you a minion and a spell. Starfall will be a spellpower'd Swipe. Cenarius will not only buff all your minions by +2/+2 but even summon two 4/4s with taunt. Even Feral Rage might be worth bringing along for giving you 4 attack that turn and 8 armour.

I have enough dust for two legendaries. Fandral seems like one of the two I'll craft, although all those Druid nerfs are admittedly making me a little hesitant.

moossabi

2016-04-21, 05:21 PM

Given how many free Whispers packs we're getting, I'm going to dump my gold on about five GvG pack while they're still available.

Is it weird that the only card from GvG that I legitimately want is Troggzor? Not Doctor Bye, not any of the really good cards, but Troggzor, one of the most 'meh' cards in the game. I really have no concept of priority (further proof: Nozdormu and Hogger are higher up on my list of cards to get than Antonidas or Alexstrasza). :smallsigh:

PsyBomb

2016-04-21, 05:24 PM

Is it weird that the only card from GvG that I legitimately want is Troggzor? Not Doctor Bye, not any of the really good cards, but Troggzor, one of the most 'meh' cards in the game. I really have no concept of priority (further proof: Nozdormu and Hogger are higher up on my list of cards to get than Antonidas or Alexstrasza). :smallsigh:

I just don't have much of a collection at all, so most of what I pull will either be new or a second copy. Means way less dust to use way in the far-off future when I'm going back and doing my collecting. Plus possible Boom, since I do want to play Midrange Warlock and Hunter in Wild.

EDIT: First three packs, and good GRIEF I wish I could open like this regularly... 3 Rare, 3 Epic (Ancestor's Call for the combo deck I'm thinking of, plus Bouncing Blades and a foil Anima Golem). Zero dust (other than probably killing the Golem for actual deck cards in the near future, that 400 will finish two decks). Plus finishing out some important commons that I couldn't pull for the life of me these past four months...

Corlindale

2016-04-21, 05:34 PM

It would be hilarious to use Blade of C'Thun to kill an opponent's buffed C'thun right before playing your own C'thun.

PsyBomb

2016-04-21, 05:43 PM

It would be hilarious to use Blade of C'Thun to kill an opponent's buffed C'thun right before playing your own C'thun.

Rogue and Druid are going to be crazy C'thun decks, but I can see Warlock doing some evil things there (Soul Shepherd with Forbidden Ritual is lots and lots of plusses)

Rodin

2016-04-21, 06:07 PM

Stormcrack ... seems not good? (2 mana, overload 1, 4 damage to a minion). They're still not making cards that are strong enough that the overload is worth it and there's still not enough overload synergy. I may be wrong. Flamewreathed Faceless (7/7 for 4, 2 overload) is more what overload should be doing, I think.

I think it's supposed to be the new Crackle, since that's also rotating out. It still seems pretty bad. The only place it might have seen play is Aggro Shaman, but they made it minion only so....

I guess it's supposed to be like Shadowbolt as an Overload card, but I don't really see it. Overload is often worse than just costing the extra mana, especially on spells. Overload cards need to have a really powerful effect to get run, and Stormcrack just...doesn't. Lightning Bolt is just as good for early game control and it costs 1 less.

Flamewreathed Faceless is going to be pretty much auto in Shaman decks though. That's a lot of stats on turn 4, or even turn 3 with a coin.

Sith_Happens

2016-04-21, 06:24 PM

PsyBomb

2016-04-21, 06:46 PM

AgentPaper

2016-04-21, 07:22 PM

Kish

2016-04-21, 07:35 PM

ChaosOS

2016-04-21, 07:59 PM

RE: Rogue Board clears. If you're fine with small ones I think Azure Drake/Thalnos + Fan of Knives are your best options for smaller ones since that helps you cycle through your deck. If you really want bigger board clears then unfortunately you are looking at Vanish as your primary option.

EDIT: Oh, and Dark Iron Skulker

moossabi

2016-04-21, 08:01 PM

OrcusMcP

2016-04-21, 08:04 PM

Thialfi

2016-04-21, 08:18 PM

Is it just me or did they save all the really good cards for this final reveal? I wasn't super impressed with the set before, probably colored by the fact that I'm still not a fan of the theme, but most of the new stuff today seems really good.

I love Fandral Staghelm, he'll fit really nicely in that beast druid deck I mentioned earlier (a 4/6 beast with taunt and charge? Yes, please). Addled grizzly seems to be made for token druid.

I saw some people not caring for priest in standard. I don't know why. The alchemist seems really good and can fit in any deck. Nice soulpriest or embrace the shadows synergy too. I like both of their C'Thun cards. Power word tentacles is severely over costed though. It's arguably worse than velen's chosen and costs 2 more. Yuck.

The rogue and shaman cards all seem pretty good to me but I don't play either class.

I love two of the paladin cards. Selfless hero is a great one drop and a light in the darkness seems very strong. Rallying blade is a 3 cost fiery war axe, which isn't terrible, but I'm guessing it will be hard to get its effect to pay off even if they are really pushing divine shield for paladin in this set.

Mage didn't get much, but the best cards definitely came last. Cult Sorcerer is a great 2 drop even if you don't have C'Thun in your deck. Shatter can be really strong. They really should have revealed that with the frost caller. Speaking of freezing. The legendary minion seems like it will fit nicely in a freeze mage deck.

Warlock looks to have gotten the worst deal in this set. I can't find much nice to say about any of the cards revealed today, you can't even synergize their forbidden card with reliquary seeker.

Pirate warrior looks like awesome fun. I'm wondering if the little goblin girl will find her way into other weapon classes. A 2/5 for 4 isn't great but the 2 mana discount on weapons seems really strong. Turn 6 blackwater pirate and Truesilver champ? Turn 8 blackwater pirate, doomhammer, rockbiter?

Twin Emperor Vek'lor looks amazing and I'm putting the black knight back in almost all my decks.

Zevox

2016-04-21, 08:28 PM

I spy with my little eye... precisely zero cards that would make current Blade Fury anywhere near OP in Standard. Which pretty much confirms my suspicion that the extreme nerf is one of the devs being tired of losing to Oil Rogue and being petty and vindictive about it.
Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation for that one present, I definitely agree.

Anyway, my thoughts on the new reveals: (Note, I'm looking at them in a gallery, it might not be obvious if some are actually tokens instead of real cards.)
Neutral
Aberrant Berserker - Decent arena card, but I don't see what sort of constructed deck it would fit in.
Am'gam Rager - Reverse Magma Rager, cute. Probably not much better than Magma Rager itself, though.
Bilefin Tidehunter - Eh, it's slightly better Murloc Tidehunter with slightly less Murloc synergy. Don't see it being good.
Blackwater Pirate - Hm, that discount might just be enough to make up for that stat deficiency. Now if only the best Pirate synergy card (Ship's Cannon) weren't cycling out of Standard...
Corrupted Seer - Please let this be too slow to bring back Murloc decks... (I think it is, but I always worry...)
Crazed Worshipper - So, Fen Creeper + C'Thun buffs. Probably one of the weaker C'Thun cards, but it does have the potential to buff C'Thun multiple times. Might just squeak into C'Thun decks, or might not be good enough. We'll see.
Cyclopian Horror - Needs at least two minions on the enemy's board to be even decent, so it's only good against aggro decks. Maybe if the meta goes that way it's a tech card, but I don't expect that. Oh well.
Darkspeaker - This thing is weird. Its stats are sub-par for the cost, but I guess the idea is them kinda-sorta having charge if your board isn't empty. I have my doubts that that works out to be good, but maybe it does, hard to say.
Disciple of C'Thun - Very comparable to Argent Horserider, and gives a C'Thun buff on top of it. Likely to be a staple of C'Thun decks I think.
Doomcaller - My first reaction was "holy moly, you can bring C'Thun back from the dead? With a neutral card?!" But then I thought about it and realized, it's probably ridiculous to expect that to actually happen. If you play C'Thun, you likely win - if play C'Thun and it does and you somehow can't win quickly thereafter, I doubt putting him back in your deck saves you expect in fringe cases. Doubt this one sees play - and if it did, it would only be as a one-of, I think.
Duskboar - This feels like a token, but I'm not sure what it would be from. If it's not, obvious bad card, 1 health and no effect.
Eldritch Horror - Meh, vanilla stats at that mana cost are not worth it.
Evolved Kobold - Ah, the elusive Spell Damage +2! ...on one of the worst 4-mana bodies ever. Throw it in the trash bin.
Faceless Beheamoth - See Eldritch Horror.
Grotesque Dragonhawk - It's Windfury Harpy's marginally bigger brother. It might actually be worse than the Harpy, since all it gains for that +1 mana cost is +1 attack. Bad card.
Midnight Drake - Eh, no matter how much attack it gets, it always has only 4 health. That's not so hot. Not expecting much from this one.
Nat, the Darkfisher - Needed bigger stats to justify that drawback.
Nerubian Prophet - Eh, takes two turns sitting your hand to be okay, three to be good. Hard to say whether that works out or not.
Psych-o-Tron - Love the card art, but the card itself is probably not worth that much mana.
Silithid Swarmer - So, this is a Druid/weapon class card. Hm, has potential - perhaps a new deck or two finds space for it.
Twilight Geomancer - Probably the worst C'Thun card. 1/4 for 2 has never been good, and I don't think taunt is enough to make it good. And it doesn't even really buff C'Thun - I doubt C'Thun ever needs taunt.
Twin Emperor Vek'lor - Hm, is this worth it even if the effect goes off? I'm a little iffy on it. At 7 mana I kind of want something with more immediate impact. Might be good enough to see play in C'Thun decks, might not, hard to say.
Twisted Worgen - Fine arena card, might make its way into aggro decks in constructed.

Druid
Addled Grizzly - Might have potential. It's like Hobgoblin, but works on everything in exchange for only giving half the buff. Not completely sure how good that is, but probably at least decent.
Fandral Staghelm - Decent stats, very potent effect. I like it. Might be good enough to see consistent constructed play.
Feral Rage - Hm, it's half of Bite and better Healing Touch in a single "choose one" card. That's probably pretty good, actually. I could see this seeing play.
Forbidden Ancient - Not particularly good, probably one of the weaker Forbidden cards. At most mana costs, X/X for X vanilla isn't something you're happy to get, and I don't feel like it makes a great filler the way Forbidden Shaping could.

Hunter
Carrion Grub - It's Druid of the Flame in bird mode. Eh. Maybe it fits in Midrange Hunter? I'm really not qualified to say.
Firey Bat - Seems good, might be a new Hunter staple.
Infested Wolf - Hm, not sure whether this is good or bad. Possibly Midrange Hunter's replacement for Shredder, possibly quite not strong enough.
On the Hunt - Seems... okay, I guess?

Mage
Anomalus - What is this supposed to actually do? It doesn't have taunt to force your opponent to deal with it, wipes your board as well, has sub-par stats for the cost... I kind of struggle to see what kind of deck actually wants this.
Cult Sorcerer - Eh, not one of the better C'Thun cards. Spell damage isn't that good, and it doesn't want to be played on 2 because then it's too likely to die before getting its buff off. Pretty meh, not expecting to see this one much.
Shatter - Freeze Mage's new best friend? Maybe. Definitely sees experimentation in that deck, might become a staple of it. Maybe it even helps squeak Frost Nova or Cone of Cold into other Control Mage decks? Eh, probably not, but I can dream.

Paladin
A Light in the Darkness - Slow, and likely poor. You wouldn't play a 2-mana spell that just gave a minion +1/+1, and this is one where you don't even fully control what you're giving the buff to and can't use the buff immediately. The upside is that it doesn't require something to be on the board, but I doubt that makes up for the downside.
Divine Strength - Eh, probably does too little. Maybe in an aggro Paladin?
Rallying Blade - Hm, trying to push a Divine Shield theme with Paladin I see. This... might just work out. And let's be honest, Firey Win Axe at +1 mana isn't too bad even if the effect doesn't hit - just ask Hunter.
Selfless Hero - Hey, new early game for Paladin! ...unfortunately, it dies to ping and gives its shield to nothing if played on turn 1 against three classes. Might be good enough to get used anyway, but it's not as strong as it looks at first glance, I think.

Priest
Darkshire Alchemist - Decent, I could see this seeing play. Would be a good replacement for Healbot, were it not in the class that arguably least needs that.
Hooded Acolyte - Not bad, certainly one that will be used if Priest can pull off C'Thun. Good in arena just for being a 4 mana 3/6, too.
Power Word: Tentacles - Well, I like the name, it made me laugh. But it's probably too weak for the cost, I think. Compares unfavorably to Blessing of Kings I suspect, which often itself isn't good enough to see play in Paladin constructed.
Twilight Darkmender - Woah. If C'Thun works in Priest, this will be there, no question - it's far better Healbot if that effect goes off, and since C'Thun starts at 6/6 it actually shouldn't be too hard for that to happen.

Rogue
Blade of C'Thun - Woah, that's potent. But on the flipside, crap, that stat-to-mana ratio blows. And it's in Rogue, which has had a lot of trouble pulling off a Control deck, which this clearly wants to be in. I wish I could say it was good, but I'm just not confident.
Bladed Cultist - Hm, not bad, but not really Zombie Chow I'm afraid. Barring going second and having another 1-mana card to spend your mana on, you're not getting this out on 1, and 2/3 for 1 at other times isn't as good, so I'm 100% sure if this will see play. It might be good enough to, though. We'll see.
Journey Below - Ah, a card to help out Raptor Rogue. Nice, and probably okay, if a deathrattle Rogue can be made to work. I don't think it does much to make such a deck work, though.
Shadow Strike - Well now, that's solid, and might actually help a Control Rogue become a thing. Kind of vanilla, but I like it.
Southsea Squidface - That's pretty good - might even see play in non-Pirate decks. Actually, that might be more likely than Pirate decks becoming a thing, with Ship's Cannon leaving Standard.

Shaman
Eternal Sentinel - Seems solid. Shaman's getting a surprising number of good cards this set.
Evolve - Cute, but probably not worth a card without a body attached. Maybe okay in arena.
Flamewreathed Faceless - Holy cow, that could very well be amazing! Especially with BGH getting nerfed so it should no longer be as common to see.
Primal Fusion - Eh... hard to say whether this is good enough. Maybe with all the changes in Standard that midrange totem Shaman people tried after TGT came out comes back in a big way and this works out in it. If not though, probably trash.
Stormcrack - It's Crackle's worse replacement. Probably not worth running over Lightning Bolt, I think.

Warlock
Darkshire Councilman - Might be a new Zoo card. Obviously not strong immediately if dropped on 3, but even one buff makes it decent, and two makes it good. I think it's more likely than not to stick around after the experimentation phase.
Darkshire Librarian - Fun fact, I initially misread this guy's battlecry as "discover" instead of "discard," so I of course thought it looked insane until I re-read it and noticed. As it actually is... eh, it's probably okay-ish, but I could only see it being worth using with cards like Fist of Jaraxxus, and I'm very confident that this card alone isn't enough to make that work out. So, not expecting to see it outside of occasionally in arena.
Forbidden Ritual - One of the better Forbidden cards, could see some play, particularly in Zoo.
Usher of Souls - Okay, in a Zoo-ish C'Thunlock, this card could be nuts - and it's body is already Pit Fighter. And with the built-in card draw, Warlock was already likely to be one of the better candidates for C'Thun decks. I'm expecting to see this one a fair bit unless C'Thunlock just does not work for some reason.

Warrior
Blood to Ichor - Not bad. I don't think it fits in Control Warrior - too low-impact - but if something more midrange emerges for Warrior, it should be in there. Maybe even in Patron, actually.
Bloodhoof Brave - Eh, it's slightly different Aberrant Berserker: -1 attack, +1 health, +1 attack from enrage, +taunt. Not even completely sure that makes it better than the Berserker, honestly, that attack loss is pretty consequential. Maybe decent in arena, don't expect to see it in constructed.
Bloodsail Cultist - Solid, but can a Pirate deck be a thing without Ship's Cannon? Not so sure.
Malkorok - Pretty solid, but I'm not sure it fits into Control Warrior, and obviously it's not for Patron. Maybe if a new Midrange Warrior becomes a thing?
All in all, not bad. Some interesting stuff, and I like what Shaman got in particular.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-21, 08:31 PM

Lessee...

Blood to Ichor: not seeing the utility of this.
Bloodsail Cultist's hat is amazing. Card's not bad either. Combos nicely with N'zoth's first mate to make a 2/4 weapon.
Bloodhoof Brave really interesting design. You have to kill it in one go, or it gets a lot stronger. I think this card is actually pretty decent.
Malkorok: Is probably good. 5 mana 6/5 plus 2 mana equip a random weapon. Sometimes you get Cursed Blade and you're Sad, but sometimes you get Gorehowl and this card is huge tempo.
Silver Hand Murlocs are adorable.
Selfless Hero seems really good.
Divine Strength is also kind of interesting. It's basically PW:S, except it gives +1 attack instead of drawing a card, which is a bit worse. On the other hand, it's a cheap buff. Dragon Paladin? Don't know if that will ever be a thing, but I'll try it out.
A Light in the Darkness is a very nice filler card.
Rallying Blade is probably not good. Paladin has better weapons, and Divine Shields tend not to stick around. In Wild, run Coghammer. In Standard, don't run this. In Arena? Worse Fiery War axe is still pretty good.
On the Hunt: Worse arcane shot, sees no play.
Fiery Bat: is an Obvious Leper Gnome replacement for face Hunter
Infested Wolf: I think this is good. It's a sticky midrange card on the 4 slot. Hunter didn't have many of those.
Carrion Grub: ANother nice midrange beast. Combos with Houndmaster if it isn't removed. Strong card, will see play if Midrange is a thing.
Cult Sorcerer: 2 mana 3/2 with an upside. Good card in a C'thun Mage. Is C'thun mage good? Maybe.
Shatter: That's an interesting design. I think Freeze Mage would want this card, though maybe only as a 1-off. Bad in Arena.
Anomalus: Holy board clear, Batman. I don't know if this is actually good, since if you're behind enough on board for its effect to be beneficial, your opponent might just ignore it. If you're not, it dies. It is nice though in that it's effectively immune to from-the-hand removal. They can't kill it without losing their board, so they have to trade stuff in. It's probably a bit too slow.
Primal Fusion: Totemcarver's effect on a card. Probably better than totemcarver because it only costs 1 mana. Totem Shaman wasn't really that strong, though, and I don't think this is enough to fix it.
Evolve: Hilarious and possibly good. This is theoretically worth it with even one minion on the board, and with 2 or more it's absolutely value. I could see it being used, for sure.
Stormcrack: +1 Lightning bolt, with a bit less versatility. I don't think it's that good.
Eternal Sentinel: This, on the other hand, is very good. Way better than Lava Shock, IMO. Great card.
Flamewreathed Faceless: Damn, this guy's great too. A 7/7 that early is super hard to deal with, especially with the BGH nerf. Combine with Eternal Sentinel for maximum value.
Bladed Cultist: Not that good.
Journey Below: Kinda neat. Nice way to guarantee you have something for Unearthed Raptor to hit, and a good filler on 1 if you have nothing else.
Shadow Strike: Strong removal, great in Arena. Not sure if it's good enough for Constructed.
Southsea Squidface: Oh hai, Davy Jones. Deadly Poison stapled to a 4 mana 4/4. Not bad. Good in Arena. Wouldn't work in any class that isn't Rogue anyways.
Blade of C'thun: That's hilarious! And probably good. It's like playing a 4 mana 4/4 and an assassinate in one turn, and it also buffs C'thun. 9 mana is a bit steep, though, so I'm not sure it's good enough.
Forbidden Ancient: Always spot-on for the Vanilla Test. So... probably bad.
Feral Rage: Pick Healing Touch or Heroic Strike. Probably bad.
Addled Grizzly: Eh. I don't think this is very good. Maybe if it was a 3/2.
Fandral Staghelm: Absolutely hilarious. Needs to be killed immediately, or the Druid will start getting insane value. I think this is good. possibly even great.
Forbidden Ritual: Also probably bad. Flooding the board with 1/1s isn't that great for Warlock.
Darkshire Librarian: Huh. Well, it's card neutral, so it can't be bad, but the stats are pretty bog-standard 3/2 for 2. Why not just run Dark Peddler?
Darkshire Councilman: I guess this is what Forbidden Ritual is for. Probably decent in Wild, where it can be combined with Imp-losion.
Usher of Souls: That's... a really good card. Yeah, ok.
Hooded Acolute: Probably decent, though I don't think C'thun Priest will be a thing.
Darkshire Alchemist: Flash heal stapled to Yeti. Probably good. Great in Arena.
Twilight Darkmender: Ok, C'thun priest MIGHT be a thing. This is decently strong.
Power Word: Tentacles: LOL. At 5 this is probably slightly overcosted, but it's still funny and has a nice stat distribution for Priest.
Zealous Initiate: Meh. Pretty bad.
Twilight Geomancer: Huh. Well, if you run this you run it as a 1-off, but that's not bad.
Duskboard: oh hi, Magma Rager. This card is bad.
Nat, The Darkfisher: Only really good for Fatigue decks, but still pretty funny.
Bilefin Tidehunter: Slightly better than Regular Tidehunter. Probably still not good enough.
Twisted Worgen: Trades 1 health for Stealth. A fine 2 drop.
Silithid Swarmer: best in Rogue and Druid. I think this could see play in Rogue especially.
Squirming Tentacle: Eh, 3 mana 2/4. Probably alright in Arena.
Am'gam Rager: BLIZZARD. WHAT YOU DID THERE. I SEE IT. This is about as good as it is when you read its first name backwards.
Disciple of C'thun: Another solid C'thun card. Stats aren't great, but this is comparable to Argent Horserider that bypasses Taunt, which is good, and it gives +2/+2 to C'thun, which is good. Great card for C'thun decks.
Aberrant Berserker: Amani's big brother. This is a solid 4-drop, nothing super exciting.
Evolved Kobold: Another for the +2 spell damage crew. This is sadly not very good. Stats are too bad.
Cyclopean Horror: If the enemy has 2 minions, it's Taz'dingo. If they have 3, it's cheaper Fen Creeper. If they just played Wisps of the Old Gods, you laugh and then win. Good in Arena, probably not strong enough for Constructed.
Midnight Drake: The opposite of Twilight Drake. Not as good as Twilight, since Health is usually better than attack, but this is still ok, I guess.
Blackwater Pirate: Bad stats, but nice effect. This is still not great, I don't think it'll get used much.
Psych-o-Tron: It's back! NOOOOOO. Stats are bad for a 5 drop, Divine Shield isn't worth the extra 2 mana. Can't be used for Tempo. Whew! We're safe from the annoyingness.
Crazed Worshipper: Fen creeper with an upside for C'thun decks. Maybe gets used if C'thun decks want a Fen Creeper. I wonder if there are enough C'thun cards to make a deck out of just C'thun cards. It's pretty easy to see why they decided C'thun was going to be free for everyone.
Darkspeaker: Huh. I guess that's a way to make something with bad stats and a good effect more survivable? Play this with Knife Juggler for a 3/6 juggler. It's strictly better Juggles! It's also 7 mana. This is interesting, but I don't think it's super good.
Nerubian Prophet: Best case scenario, you have this in your opening hand. It costs 5 on turn 1, 4 on turn 2, and 3 on turn 3. A 3 mana 4/4 is pretty good. This is kind of weird, because it's a Tempo card you need to have in your hand for at least 3 turns before the return on investment is worth it. I think this card is alright, possibly good, but I'll need to play around with it a bit to find out. This one is really hard to call.
Corrupted Seer: Battlecry is very strong, cost is kind of prohibitive. Murloc decks might run it, but I think it's too expensive to be good.
Twin Emperor Vek'lor: 7 mana 4/6 is bad, even with Taunt. What about 7 mana for 2 4/6 with Taunt? That's 3.5 mana for a 4/6 Taunt. That's pretty good. Getting C'thun to 10 attack by turn 7 isn't too hard. This card is probably really good. I'm excited to try it. Will probably be my first crafted legendary from this set.
Bog Creeper: We've seen this guy's art before, and here he's just upgraded Fen Creeper. I think he's a strong Arena pick, but not that good in Constructed.
Grotesque Dragonhawk: Comparable to Windfury Harpy. Bad.
Doomcaller: Sweet Smoking Conan! I think you only want one of these, but the ability to re-use your deck's one huge bomb to be a second huge bomb is amazing. Stats are decent, too.
Eldritch Horror: Vanilla 6/10 for 8. Dodges BGH. Ok in Arena, not good enough for constructed.
Faceless Behemoth: Vanilla 10/10 for 10. Doesn't dodge BGH. Probably not even good enough for Arena.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-21, 08:40 PM

Sith_Happens

2016-04-21, 08:56 PM

It's not so much that Blade Fury was overpowered, but its original form limited the design space of Rogue weapons and weapon buffs. Having it be just a board clear both brings it more in line with the design ideal of Hearthstone being a game of board presence, while also making it safer to have powerful weapon buffs for Rogue without worrying about a huge burst of damage to face.

None of which explains also raising its cost enough to be mediocre at best as a board clear.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-21, 09:04 PM

Bear in mind that Psychotron is a Taunt minion. As a 3-attack 5-mana taunt, it's sitting in a similar place as Sludge Belcher, and the Divine Shield often makes it just as sticky.

Hmm, may give my own thoughts, then...

The problem is that Divine Shield isn't as sticky as Deathrattle. Sludge Belcher needs to take 7 damage before it goes away, and destroying a minion outright means you still need to kill the slime. This card needs to take minimum 5 damage, if you have a ping or a token to knock off the shield, and destroy effects will just kill it. It's much easier to straight up get rid of than Belcher is.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-21, 10:01 PM

I went through and put thoughts down on everything...

Neutral
Aberrant Berserker: solid statline, and we finally get a Berserker that can get its Enrage effect with relative ease. It doesn't die easily thanks to the 5 health, and having 3 attack as a 4-drop actually makes it useful the turn you play it (to be contrasted with Gurubashi Berserker).
Am'gam Rager: wow, Blizz. Classy. The troll is real.
Bilefin Tidehunter: the power creep! Seriously, though, a big improvement over the normal Tidehunter. The ooze lets the Murloc portion of the card trade much more easily, and you get a ping out of it. Plus, this combos really nicely with Addled Grizzly.
Blackwater Pirate: neat effect, bad stats. Most importantly, the effect isn't one that you're going to use more than once per turn, and probably once every couple of turns. By that time, this minion is probably dead, so the effect is only really important the turn you play her. Basically look at her like "pay (2) extra for your weapon, and a card, get a 2/5". I don't think that's worth it.
Bog Creeper: now Fearsome Doomguard is sad. The tempo is strong, though! This statline is just right for the tempo. Strong Arena pick.
Corrupted Seer: in theory, an AoE to protect your Murloc board. In practice, really expensive and hard to fit into a curve. Murlocs remain immensely susceptible to AoE themselves. This would be a far better card as a 4-mana 1/2.
Crazed Worshipper: enables both Warrior C'thun and Priest C'thun, and otherwise it's a Fen Creeper.
Cyclopian Horror: nice anti-aggro tech card. Might help decks out against aggro in Wild, since you can answer a Muster easily with this. In Standard, still good against aggro.
Darkspeaker: amazing in the right deck; otherwise, it's still a good, strong way to get tempo. Where this is going to shine, though, is Evolve Shaman. Darkspeaker something, then Master of Evolution or Evolve to up-convert the Darkspeaker into a 6-mana minion after you've gotten the tempo advantage from its stats.
Disciple of C'thun: a great replacement for Keeper of the Grove, a neutral, and an upgraded Ironforge Rifleman. Also, it buffs C'thun.
Doomcaller: I don't think that you need to resummon C'thun, if playing C'thun didn't win you the game. Especially since you need to dig back through your deck to fetch him. This is possibly useful in Control Warrior, because it helps you avoid fatigue and gives you another C'thun turn.
Duskboar: not great, but more useful than it might seem, due to synergy with Hunter cards. I wouldn't play it, though.
Eldritch Horror: solid entry to the vanilla minions club. 10 health means it's hard to get rid of.
Evolved Kobold: -4 health is not worth +1 spell damage. (Or, looked at another way, +2 mana is not worth +1 spell damage.) Awful card.
Faceless Behemoth: a resounding "meh". Not great stats for 10 mana. Also arguably too expensive to be a good Arena pick.
Grotesque Dragonhawk: well, considering that Harpy is 1 mana cheaper and only has 1 less attack, I think we can file this under "grotesquely underpowered". Nice buff to Ram Wrangler, though.
Midnight Drake: cute, but not terribly good, although I've seen some people suggest it as part of a Charge combo for Warrior. (Midnight Drake -> Charge -> Faceless for 10-mana damage to face. If you have Midnight Drake, Charge, Faceless, and five other cards, that's 20 damage from hand without Thaurissan.) Otherwise, it's a bad on-curve play because 4 health is too easy to deal with.
Nat, the Darkfisher: cute, and it would actually be a good card if it were given more aggressive stats--basically sacrificing card advantage for strong tempo. Great for a mill deck, though.
Nerubian Prophet: if you can aggressively mulligan for it, you get to play it as a 3-mana 4/4 if it's in your opening hand. That's pretty good! Its usefulness diminishes later in the game, though.
Psych-o-tron: the replacement for Sludge Belcher. Other than Blood Knight, it works pretty well as a replacement, I'd say. The only disadvantage is pings, which is unfortunate. In arena, very strong pick: it's -1/-1 and (1) less than Sunwalker, which puts it right on curve, and it's a 5-mana minion, which is big--while you can only play one 6-mana minion per turn, you can play two 5-mana minions by Turn 10 and onwards. In Arena, that means you have far fewer 6+ mana minions than other cost minions.
Silithid Swarmer: sick, sick tempo for any weapon-based classes. Fits fairly decently into Druid, but where it'll really shine is Tempo Rogue. Play this T3, Hero Power and play a 2-mana card on T4, and you have a 3/5 ready to swing, ahead-of-curve.
Squirming Tentacle: I joke about power creep, but honestly it's good to see them evaluating stats for costs appropriately. This is a solid Arena pick, a good common, and it's a fair card for the price.
Twilight Geomancer: see previous note, along with an interesting note that C'thun gets taunt...which I'm not sure makes a lot of sense. It doesn't help that much. A 2-mana 1/4 taunt is not bad, though. Makes me wish the C'thun cards weren't being left out of arena.
Twin Emperor Vek'lor: WOW. Two 4/6 taunts for 7 mana? That's solid. And getting C'thun to 10 attack by Turn 7 shouldn't be hard.
Twisted Worgen: not enough of an upgrade from Worgen Infiltrator, but it does trade up into some 3-mana minions. <shrug>
Zealous Initiate: I like it! Really strong early-game tempo as long as it doesn't get pinged away the turn after it's played.

Druid
Addled Grizzly: very interesting, looks like they're aiming to push Token Druid between this, the Force rework, and Wisps of the Old Gods. Also makes a pretty neat combo with Living Roots: T4 you can get three 2/2s on the board. I feel like this needs more minion-summoning effects to really work out, though. Maybe that's intentional? Also makes an interesting combo with Dragon Egg.
Fandral Staghelm: what. This is kinda nuts. And as a 4-mana 3/5, it's not easily removed if you play it on-curve, and it also slots easily into a number of turns.
Feral Rage: interesting removal spell, not as efficient as Claw, but it really shines in combination with Fandral.
Forbidden Ancient: not an amazing card, because it's not quite up to vanilla stats par. On the flipside, however, it has the giant upside of always being an on-curve play. That's worth something in ramp Druid. It's also considerably better than Forbidden Shaping, I think, because it's consistent.

Paladin
A Light in the Darkness: actually an interesting and probably good card for mindrange Paladin. It's Unstable Portal, but you get to discover it, and you get a +1/+1 instead of a cost reduction. It's not equivalent to the cost reduction of Portal, but if you're allowed to skip your Turn 2 because you have enough tempo, this is a strong way to get card advantage, since you basically get to transform it into a minion of your choice.
Divine Strength: as a cantrip, it's alright, and you get enough tempo for the mana cost. But it's nothing stellar, and I only really see this working well with Darkbane sisters or Djinni synergy. It's just too un-swingy.
Rallying Blade: seems okay, but really hard to set up properly.
Selfless Hero: cool filler minion that you can stick in pretty much any turn. If it gets pinged, big tempo swing to you. If it lives to trade, you can set up some SICK trades with this. I'd even consider playing this as a 1-drop. (In Wild, this makes Avenge hilariously good.)

Mage
Anomalus: cool art. The effect...I really don't know. It's intended to be a boardwipe that your opponent can't ignore. Seems too easy to play around, though. And only Freeze Mage uses boardwipes like that--and they already have ample tools at their disposal.
Cult Sorcerer: POWER CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP. Goodbye, Kobold Geomancer, not that anyone will really miss you. Auto-include in any Tempo Mage. Maybe even Freeze Mage? And that's not even talking about the C'thun effect, which kinda tempts me to make a Tempo Mage that uses C'thun instead of Antonidas as a finisher.
Shatter: this is one powerful card. Freeze Mage might already have enough board-clearing to not need this (they tend to like Doomsayers for that), but I could see slotting it in as a follow-up for Blizzard, to take care of a big, annoying minion. I've seen Tempo Freeze Mage suggested as well, using that random-freezing minion.

Rogue
Bladed Cultist: super-spiffy. It's a Gadgetzan Jouster that's much easier to activate. Really nice 1-mana minion that can slot in on your turn as a 2/3.
Blade of C'thun: amazingly strong minion if the game lasts that long. It's an Assassinate stapled to a 4/4. So, you're paying 5 mana for the assassinate, 4 mana for the 4/4, and it only costs a card. That's strong value. It's also a great way to beef up your C'thun, and it's solid C'thun counterplay. The only problem is, Rogue really isn't a control-oriented class, especially with the nerf to Blade Flurry.
Journey Below: an excellent Rogue card. It's a very strong addition to Tempo Rogue and to Raptor Rogue, since not only does it fill in Turn 1, it also acts as a Combo activator.
Shadow Strike: finally, Rogue gets some bigger removal that isn't Sap! The price is right, and it's often going to kill a lot of minions outright.
Southsea Squidface: meh. An effect that's hard to control, and that requires you to make sure your weapon's equipped when this dies. The chance that it dies on your opponent's turn makes this much worse. Is this what we gave up Blade Flurry for the sake of?

Warrior
Bloodhoof Brave: finally, the tauren get solid representation (other than Cairne)! Don't know if it slots into Constructed decks, but it's for sure a good Arena pick. It'll likely not die before you trigger enrage, since 6-attack and 5-attack minions are scarce on T4. So it's gonna hit hard for 5 damage against at least one minion, often.
Bloodsail Cultist: a Pirate with a decent statline? Hurrah! And in the right deck, this is not a hard ability to trigger; Southsea Deckhand, for example, does it. Ooooooor you can weapon one turn and Dread Corsair -> Bloodsail Cultist the next for an extra charge on your weapon.
Blood to Ichor: I like it! For 1 mana, you get a 2/2, but you also can activate an Enrage effect or a damage effect, and you can even use it as a prelude to Execute! Neat little card if Patron decks decide to hang around, but also aggro Enrage decks. (You could also think of it as a 1-mana Cruel Taskmaster that doesn't increase attack.)
Malkorok: It's 5 mana of tempo with a random weapon that will usually be worth at least 2 mana, if not more. To be sure, it could critical-fail and give you Cursed Blade, but that's what critical fumbles are like. The only problem I see here is that small weapons aren't always terribly useful in the late game.

Hunter
Carrion Grub: filler minion for Beast/Midrange Hunter. It seems okay, but I'd much rather have Animal Companion over this. It's a nice minion to get out of Ram Wrangler, though.
Fiery Bat: well, Aggro Hunter just got its Leper Gnome replacement. It's like a slightly smaller Huge Toad, but you can also spam it a turn earlier...and slot it into various mana curves. I wouldn't even mind getting this from Ram Wrangler.
Infested Wolf: Haunted Creeper+. I also saw it compared to Shredder, that's pretty good. You can get it from Ram Wrangler, or you can use Beast synergy (like Houndmaster). The best part is that, unlike Creeper, the Spiders are Beasts.
On the Hunt: this one's only going to shine with synergy. Maybe it makes Lock and Load good enough? I've heard some people also suggesting it as a companion to Malygos, which is an interesting idea--Thaurissan can make it free with one tick, which makes it easy to fit into a Malygos OTK turn. The hound seems like...I dunno. A very small compensation?

Priest
Darkshire Alchemist: fantastic card. A Flash Heal stapled onto a Chillwind Yeti. All-around useful.
Hooded Acolyte: first off, it's a 4-mana 3/6 like Water Elemental. That's already a good statline. Second off, neat ability, and Priest C'thun can try living the Pyro/Circle of Healing dream now.
Power Word: Tentacles: funny card, poor stats for the cost. 5 mana for 8 points of stats? Really now? Also, incredibly slow.
Twilight Darkmender: really solid card. 10 points of healing is powerful in a control deck, that's about 1/3 of a Reno heal, and on a properly-statted minion. Getting C'thun to the magic 10 attack shouldn't be too hard.

Warlock
Darkshire Councilman: this is gonna be hilarious in Wild, what with Imp-losion and Haunted Creeper. Forbidden Ritual (see later) is also a nice companion to this card, since it gives extra tempo.
Darkshire Librarion: I'm very fond of this card, because it's a nice Warlock spin on the Darnassus Aspirant. It makes discard synergy a little bit closer to viable (we'll see if they cash in on that in an adventure or upcoming expansion), and it also helps to cycle your deck.
Forbidden Ritual: I'm not sure how good this one is, but I really like that it's a Forbidden spell. This means you can fit it into a lot of synergy curves, even if you just want a Muster for Battle to go with your Knife Juggler. Or to buff your Darkshire Councilman, in which case it's a pretty strong tempo swing (getting 3 stat points from each remaining mana crystal), barring AoE.
Usher of Souls: I dunno that Warlock has enough C'thun synergy, and I don't find this to be terribly strong enough. It wants to play in a zoo deck, but zoo and C'thun don't work together.

Shaman
Eternal Sentinel: and here comes the march of the Shaman. BOY HOWDY THIS IS GOOD. Arguably more valuable than Lava Shock in some circumstances; I often found myself using Lava Shock on the face just to free up crystals, whereas this puts a body on the board.
Evolve: mark my words: this effect is going to be the cornerstone of a Shaman archetype. That's powerful stuff. If Shaman can establish early board presence (not even board control, board presence) with totems, then Evolve them, that is one scary tempo swing. Big enough to gain dominance in the game and keep building.
Flamewreathed Faceless: and there it is. That power, though. Shaman not only gets a fairly-costed Overload minion that's massive, but it also doesn't throw Overload into Turn 6. Midrange Shaman seems like it's gonna be strong.
Primal Fusion: okay card, but I don't think it's good enough to make Totem decks work well. Evolve is gonna be where it's at for Shamans.
Stormcrack: the "target minions" clause is meh; I'd rather use Lightning Bolt for that.

Joran

2016-04-22, 01:08 AM

otakuryoga

2016-04-22, 03:26 AM

some thoughts

blood to ichor: execute enabler plus 2/2 body for 1 mana? yeah..that will see use

Bloodsail Cultist: awwwww, whos the adorable wittle piwate?

Bloodhoof Brave: experiments into warrior taunt decks will happen

A Light In The Darkness: bonkers for arena..iffy for constructed with everyone so focused on tempo

Fiery Bat: facehunters ahoy

Infested Wolf: better spider bomb since these spiders are beasts

Evolve: auto grab in arena..may end up as auto include in constructed

Flamewreathed Faceless: dear gawds....pretty much auto-include in every shaman deck

Southsea Squidface: solid

Blade of C'thun: win more card

Addled Grizzly: combo with force or dark whispers--otherwise its just psuedo taunt

Fandral Staghelm: yep..decks will be built around him(whether they will work or not....)

Usher of Souls: solid body plus effect, i can see this getting used a bunch......and i love the art

Hooded Acolyte: yes please..big bodied priest minion is always useful..and if nothing else the bluff of pumping C'thun hugely will make opponent want to get rid of her even at a disadvantage (another one with great art)

Darkshire Alchemist: solid

Twilight Darkmender: solid..wish it were 5/6 instead of 6/5

Power Word: Tentacles: *snerk*
-------i am liking all the priest cards-----------

Nat, the Darkfisher: at 2/3 its really iffy if i would risk playing him..at 3/4 i most likely would

ooze(token): awwww, he is soooo ferocious(ly cute)

Silithid Swarmer: neutral that is pretty much limited to 3 classes...

Disciple of C'thun: that will see play in C'thun decks

Evolved Kobold: Sqrat? is that you? where are Manny and the others? and where is your acorn?

Cyclopian Horror: constructed no..arena yes

Blackwater Pirate: another neutral for those 3 classes...

Psych-O-Tron: Annoy-O-Tron has hit puberty

Crazed Worshipper: yes..especially in priest C'Thun

Darkspeaker: hmmm, save early gamer with good ability like knife thrower or goldshire cleric..and of course shaman got card that makes this very nice for them..

Nerubian Prophet: a 6 cost card you dont mind seeing in your starting hand

Twin Emperor: could be real fun with Brann or shaman rebirth...but what would the 3rd one be named? :smallbiggrin:

Bog Creeper: hey, look, the Fen Creeper hit puberty also

turbo164

2016-04-22, 08:14 AM

I don't really see the value of the "Sorry" emote (as I said once before recently, if you're actually sorry you're winning that's what the Concede button is for), but I don't really see the non-mocking value of the Wow! emote either. It could be, "Wow, that was a lot of spells Yogg-Saron just cast, I'm surprised we're both still alive" or "Wow, that is one big Frothing Berserker," I suppose.

The times I've used "Sorry", non-sarcastically:

1) I was called away from the computer and spent awhile on a turn I didn't need to, as a "Sorry for the wait, I'm back".
2) Whenever the opponent dcs and then comes back, I throw a quick "Sorry" for beating his face in while he was away.
3) Whenever the opponent misclicks or misplays and emotes "Oops", I use a "Sorry" to acknowledge it.
4) I used to emote "Sorry" whenever I had a particularly egregious RNG, but now I don't do it because it could be seen as rubbing it in.

I can see "Wow" for either a really good play (Well-played is often used as a GG emote, rather than a "Wow, that was a cool play, well done" or a "You have got to be kidding me" emote for when you get some really bad RNG.

Yeah, not sure what their reasoning is, but this seems to be a more trollish emote.

Enemy Knife Juggler hits my Acolyte of Pain instead of Magma Rager or Sunwalker: "Wow!" We trade Shredders, I get Millhouse he gets Asspirant: "Wow!"

And as Joran mentioned, if I have to answer the door or something, I now have to "Wow!" when I get back.

I think I'm just going to use "Greetings" for everything from now on. Seems like the least likely to be nerfed, might as well get used to it. #Winterveil

Thialfi

2016-04-22, 09:13 AM

I really liked the last reveal. It has actually got me happy about this set for the first time. I only play five classes. Mage is my most played, followed in order by priest, paladin, druid, and warrior. I'll keep my dragon control warrior deck for standard with some adjustments. I'm definitely going with beast druid and have a good idea of what I'm going to try first.

I'm all in on C'Thun priest. My only problem is that I like so much that I'm going to have trouble getting down to 30 cards. I love soulpriest and alchemist together, but soulpriest and darkmender definitely don't play well together.

I really don't know what I want to do with paladin. Control with N'Zoth as a finisher seems like a good idea, but I'm struggling with the early game even with selfless hero and a light in the darkness.

My beautiful golden Jaina is going to have problems. Se loses so much and the only thing I'm putting in is 2 cult sorcerers and a second arcane blast. I guess I'll stay tempo with her. I'm going to have to think long and hard about what I want to do with mage. I do not want to play freeze mage.

I'll probably use my gold for 60-70 packs. I'm also sitting on a little more than 3,000 dust. Candidates for crafting are if I don't get them in packs are;

N'Zoth, Twin Emperor Vek'lor, Fandral Staghelm, and Deathwing from the Legends.

Call of the Wild, Crazed Worshipper, Shadowcaster, Embrace the Shadow for Epics.

Twilight Darkmender (x2), Mire Keeper, Shifting Shade, Disciple of C'Thun, Steward of Darkshire, Cult Sorcerer (x2), Blood to Ichor, Selfless Hero, Journey Below for rares.

ShinyRocks

2016-04-22, 10:13 AM

I think it's a shame to lose 'sorry'. It was useful, as people have said, if you have to step away. And I've used it genuinely a lot - either if opponent's RNG goes against them, or to acknowledge my own lucky RNG. (One I remember: opponent at 3 health, with lethal against me on board, and taunt. I topdecked Lightning Bolt for the win.)

Mostly I'm amazed that they're going to the extent of introducing new emotes and *not* giving us a 'good game'/'thanks for the game' one.

People will find ways to get offended by anything you say to them, of course, but still - a GG emote would go a long way to dilute the salt caused by 'inappropriate' use of well played at the end of the game.

boomwolf

2016-04-22, 10:23 AM

Am I the only one getting the feeling C'thun will be be everywhere and on every deck?

Legoshrimp

2016-04-22, 10:48 AM

GAAD

2016-04-22, 11:13 AM

Am I the only one getting the feeling C'thun will be be everywhere and on every deck?

Not true. Hunters and Shamans have no class-specific synergy and won't run C'Thun decks.

turbo164

2016-04-22, 11:18 AM

Am I the only one getting the feeling C'thun will be be everywhere and on every deck?

A lot of people will definitely be trying him, but I don't know about being "on every deck." He's not exactly plug-and-play like Dr Boom, who was an easily included threat for midrange and control and topped some aggro curves; you could pretty much take an existing deck and swap out Ragnaros or Cairne or something. C'thun at 10 requires slower decks, and instead of being a single card it also requires you to replace part of your deck with culty River Crocolisks and Spider Tanks and whatnot, which is harder to find room for without making sacrifices.

Kish

2016-04-22, 11:31 AM

Am I the only one getting the feeling C'thun will be be everywhere and on every deck?
Probably not, but I sure don't, considering he has a ton of support cards you do not get for free.

I am pretty sure a GG emote wouldn't be better. It is basically saying lol game over. It is like well played without any possible use other then BM before the end of the game.
This amounts to saying you'd personally find it offensive (...find anything said at the end of the game offensive, apparently) and you assume everyone else does as well. That shouldn't be Blizzard's reasoning for adding or not adding emotes. That said, I regretfully don't expect them to add a Good Game emote (even though they recorded them, the weirdos).

boomwolf

2016-04-22, 11:32 AM

He's not "plug and play", but so simple to build around and so powerful when it drops it's hard to justify anything else.

Kish

2016-04-22, 11:35 AM

Again--"simple to build around" if and only if you've already spent a ton of money* or dust on the cards that go with him.

*Without getting enough cards to make a different deck obviously better in the meantime.

Thialfi

2016-04-22, 11:36 AM

Here is my initial pass at a C'Thun Priest. It's tough to exclude cards. Let me know what you think.

Circle of Healing
Northshire Cleric x2
Power Word: Shield x2
Beckoner of Evil x2
Museum Curator
Brann Bronzebeard
Disciple of C'Thun x2
Shadow Word: Death x2
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Hooded Acolyte x2
Crazed Worshipper x2
Darkshore Alchemist x2
Holy Nova x2
Twilight Darkmender x2
Cabal Shadow Priest
Entomb
Confessor Paletress
Twin Emperor Vek'Lor
C'Thun

Sith_Happens

2016-04-22, 11:37 AM

He's not "plug and play", but so simple to build around and so powerful when it drops it's hard to justify anything else.

Never underestimate the vagaries of space; a lot of existing decks simply do not have room for cultists.

Volthawk

2016-04-22, 11:55 AM

He's not "plug and play", but so simple to build around and so powerful when it drops it's hard to justify anything else.

Eh, it's looking to be a good solid deck for people to build around, but not so good so that every deck is a C'thun deck - a prior example that comes to mind is mech decks in GvG. They were good and pretty straightforwards to make, but their existence didn't make every deck a mech deck. It'll probably do well straight away, as people figure out post-GvG/Naxx decks that make good use of the Old Gods cards, but after that I think it'll probably just end up as good but never really the best deck - particularly if people take advantage of the way that generally speaking the cultist cards aren't that inspiring in terms of what they do before you can drop C'thun - barring a few cards like that druid cultists that's potentially a 4 mana 4/10 - so I see the chance of just getting beaten down by the other player having less fair cards before you can really get C'thun out properly. There's also the aspect that only a few classes got good class cultist cards.

Grytorm

2016-04-22, 12:17 PM

I've been sketching out deck lists, later today when I get home I can post what I have for C'thun Priest for comparison.

Right now what I am planning on trying are:
C'thun Priest
C'thun Druid
N'zoth Rogue
Pirate Paladin
Midrange Hunter
Evolution Shaman

I kind of hope I get inspired to do something with Mage, Warlock and Paladin before the meta is established. Also I am really sad about one thing, Molten Giant nerf makes my Rogue deck much weaker. Well and I guess Blade Fury nerf to. But Molten was the card which made me Unique. At least I have a 5 wins with Rogue quest.

Infernally Clay

2016-04-22, 12:36 PM

PsyBomb

2016-04-22, 12:45 PM

Infernally Clay

2016-04-22, 02:02 PM

Just noticed Light in the Darkness. I daresay that's a better Unstable Portal, if only because you get to choose the minion and it gets buffed stats. Obviously Unstable Portal is better for tempo but I'm still all about the value of a card.

Am I the only one getting the feeling C'thun will be be everywhere and on every deck?

Well it IS the legendary we're all getting for free and it IS gonna be the easiest to build around. I expect to see it a lot so, regardless of its effectiveness, I expect it to help define the meta as well. C'thun can be one heck of an OTK so we're all gonna need strategies and methods to limit that.

moossabi

2016-04-22, 02:03 PM

Well it IS the legendary we're all getting for free and it IS gonna be the easiest to build around. I expect to see it a lot so, regardless of its effectiveness, I expect it to help define the meta as well. C'thun can be one heck of an OTK so we're all gonna need strategies and methods to limit that.

Mill Rogue 2016 confirmed. :smalltongue:

GAAD

2016-04-22, 02:12 PM

Mill Rogue 2016 confirmed. :smalltongue:

Oh shoot you're right! I look forward to playing mill against all the Cthun decks!

ChaosOS

2016-04-22, 02:19 PM

I think some folks have forgotten Grotesque Dragonhawk is a neutral beast minion. Is it super overpowered? Of course not. It does however combo very nicely with cards like Stablemaster and Savage Roar.

I think Dragonhawk is most relevant as a pull from Webspinners and Tomb Spiders, providing a high end threat as a neutral beast option.

Infernally Clay

2016-04-22, 02:21 PM

Mill Rogue 2016 confirmed. :smalltongue:

Sounds quite plausible. It won't just be enough to deal with C'thun once it's on the board. I mean, a 12/12 isn't actually as bad as the tempo afforded by its 12 damage battlecry and it's not like giving C'thun +6/+6 will be difficult. So dealing with C'thun after it's played isn't the hard part at all, but rather preventing C'thun from even being played. Nobody wants a 20/20 C'thun dropping on the other side of the board.

All I've got right now is "dominate the board so that, by the time C'thun is played, you've either practically already won or have enough big guys on the board that they soak up the damage relatively harmlessly".

moossabi

2016-04-22, 02:29 PM

Sounds quite plausible. It won't just be enough to deal with C'thun once it's on the board. I mean, a 12/12 isn't actually as bad as the tempo afforded by its 12 damage battlecry and it's not like giving C'thun +6/+6 will be difficult. So dealing with C'thun after it's played isn't the hard part at all, but rather preventing C'thun from even being played. Nobody wants a 20/20 C'thun dropping on the other side of the board.

All I've got right now is "dominate the board so that, by the time C'thun is played, you've either practically already won or have enough big guys on the board that they soak up the damage relatively harmlessly".

Well, the plan was to destroy C'thun via hand being too full, but that is situational, at best. At least it's something! :smallbiggrin:

boomwolf

2016-04-22, 03:25 PM

You think too small.
Mill-C'thun rouge.

Zevox

2016-04-22, 05:07 PM

I think some folks have forgotten Grotesque Dragonhawk is a neutral beast minion. Is it super overpowered? Of course not. It does however combo very nicely with cards like Stablemaster and Savage Roar.
Nobody is forgetting that, it just doesn't make it better in the slightest. No Hunter deck can run Stablemaster well, and a card that compares unfavorably to Windfury Harpy isn't going to change that just because it's a beast. And if Windfury Harpy didn't see play with Savage Roar (or Bloodlust, or Cold Blood, or any number of other attack buffs), this sure as heck isn't either. Grotesque Dragonhawk is just an obvious bad card, no two ways about it.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-22, 07:38 PM

I just saw the weirdest thing on Trump's twitch. If you get majordomo into becoming a Ragnaros you count as a druid for the idols.

The VoD of this went up on Youtube today. I think it's because Idol is a Druid card, so it defaults to that if you're Ragnaros, because Majordomo is Neutral.

Rodin

2016-04-22, 07:47 PM

Nobody is forgetting that, it just doesn't make it better in the slightest. No Hunter deck can run Stablemaster well, and a card that compares unfavorably to Windfury Harpy isn't going to change that just because it's a beast. And if Windfury Harpy did see play with Savage Roar (or Bloodlust, or Cold Blood, or any number of other attack buffs), this sure as heck isn't either. Grotesque Dragonhawk is just an obvious bad card, no two ways about it.

I can see the appeal from a theorycrafting point of view - the ability to put out an immune Windfury champion and then buff the hell out of it looks great. The problem Windfury Harpy had was that it's just too easy to nuke the thing, and on paper the Dragonhawk looks like it's easier to pull shenanigans to keep it alive.

The problem is that Immune...isn't. Hard removal is just as effective against it, and most classes have at least one way to hard kill a minion or otherwise nullify it. Priests just save their Entomb or Shadow Word Death, Paladins just use Aldor Peacekeeper on it, Mages use Polymorph...heck, even Hunters can just control the board and have a Freezing Trap up. And if it becomes a thing, worse cards like Recycle, Assassinate, Deadly Shot, etc just rotate in as a hard counter.

It's the usual problem of focusing all the power in a single minion. If you're going to kill with a single giant minion, you HAVE to be able to spring the surprise from your hand and attack that turn, otherwise people will just save their nukes and blast it. The only reason C'Thun is going to be cool is that he nukes the board when he lands, meaning that even if he gets hard removed you still wind up with a load of value.

Zevox

2016-04-22, 08:09 PM

I can see the appeal from a theorycrafting point of view - the ability to put out an immune Windfury champion and then buff the hell out of it looks great. The problem Windfury Harpy had was that it's just too easy to nuke the thing, and on paper the Dragonhawk looks like it's easier to pull shenanigans to keep it alive.
I don't see how it looks easier to keep alive at all. It has exactly as much health as Windfury Harpy at a higher cost, doesn't have charge, and there's nothing that protects it from your opponent during their next turn. Stablemaster sure as heck doesn't, her effect wears off after your turn. The reason she's never seen play is because she's basically a worse Argent Protector - can't save the "Divine Shield" if you don't have an immediate trade with it, only works on beasts instead of anything, and she costs more but isn't significantly better for her mana cost in terms of her own stats - and Argent Protector itself is only even good enough to see occasional play in the pure aggro "Shockadin" decks. I have my doubts that any card could make her see play, but if there were one, it sure wouldn't be Grotesque Dragonhawk. Maybe something like a beast version of Whirling Zap-o-Matic would do the trick, but I'm not even sure about that, and that would be a far better card than this one.

Mando Knight

2016-04-22, 08:34 PM

The problem is that Immune...isn't. Hard removal is just as effective against it, and most classes have at least one way to hard kill a minion or otherwise nullify it. Priests just save their Entomb or Shadow Word Death, Paladins just use Aldor Peacekeeper on it, Mages use Polymorph...heck, even Hunters can just control the board and have a Freezing Trap up. And if it becomes a thing, worse cards like Recycle, Assassinate, Deadly Shot, etc just rotate in as a hard counter.

The problem with trying to exploit Immune is that there is no way to grant Immune to a minion during your opponent's turn. As soon as your turn ends, your Dragonhawk is as vulnerable to getting slammed in the face with a Fireball as it was the previous turn.

Sith_Happens

2016-04-23, 01:18 AM

So I just won a brawl thanks to Nozdormu and it felt great.:xykon:

Legoshrimp

2016-04-23, 07:13 AM

Comments on new cards:

on the hunt I just realized this is literally elven archer with +spell synergy and beast(I am assuming) synergy, and - battlecry synergy.

Hmm mage doesn't seem to get all that much, maybe a spell heavy c'thun deck will work. The only card that really strikes me as good is faceless summoner.
Servant of Yogg-saron is the funnest card though:smalltongue:
I could see most of the cards seeing play in some decks though. So I guess not that bad for mage, just not very much is really impressive.
flame and frost caller are probably the least likely to see play.

Ragnaros seems likely to be solid.
A 1 health divine shield deck might see play, but will probably be bad.
Selfless hero might see play in aggro decks. in mid range/control I doubt it just because you probably won't regularly get the deathrattle to do anything.
A light in the darkness might see play in something, but probably not. 2 mana for +1/+1 on a random minion isn't going to better then choosing a minion in most places I think.

I think the only decks that would think about running divine strength would much rather have the extra attack from other paladin buffs.

Herald Volazj is probably going to have decks built around him. I could see a few turning out to be good, but he does cost a lot.
Forbidden shaping could be run in tempo decks just to guarantee you have something to play.
Embrace the Shadow probably will see play in some combo decks, but I doubt those will really be that good.
Shadow word: horror, probably not great in general, but might see play to counter specific decks.
Darkshire alchemist seems really solid. 1-2 mana to heal 5 on anything is probably worth.
Although alchemist and darkmender might end up not being good enough to fit in, because priest probably has the least need for healing.
Power word: Tentacles is a funny card. Too bad it is really bad. Might still see occasional play, but it is paying 2 mana for 2 health and no spell power vs valens.

Xaril will probably see play in decks. Although it's a really bad body for 4 so maybe not.
Blade of c'thun could work, but it is really slow. I think it will mostly depend on how controly the meta is.
Shadowcaster probably will see play in some decks, but it has pretty low stats.
Thistle Tea costs way too much for doing so little.
undercity huckster seems likely to be in basically every rogue deck. It is kind of like mad scientist, but you don't need to run secrets to get good value from it. The one problem is it doesn't kill 2/3s but you can just use dagger.
Southsea Squidface is amazing, ignoring everything, but the name :smalltongue: Ignoring pirate synergy it probably isn't good enough to see play, because you have to already have a dagger out before you play him. Will be in any pirate rogue deck, if that becomes a thing.
Shadow strike is probably bad, rogue already has good single target removal.
Bladed cultist seems pretty good as well, except that it can't really be played on turn 1 that often.

Hallazeal the ascended is pretty cool and probably going to see a lot of play.
Hammer of twilight is kind of heh, since shaman already has a lot of weapons. It is decent value, so it might see play.
Thing from below is really good, unless your game plan involves using finely as soon as possible. Probably going to be an auto include in almost all shaman decks.
Master of evolution is really good as well.
Evolve also is really cool. Probably both of these will see a decent amount of play.
Flamewreathed Faceless looks really solid. Especially with the new way to unlock mana crystals.

Cho'Gall is probably good, can lead to some really good turns.
Doom! is probably never going to be played. In theory drawing cards is nice, in practice I think if you are needing to use doom, you will probably draw too many cards to be good.
Renounce darkness is cool, probably won't see any competitive play, but will have a fun gimmick deck.
Darkshire librarian is maybe going to see play, but probably not. I think it has the problem that you want to play it on turn 2, but if you do you can't really control its battlecry.

Malkorok is probably pretty solid. Probably won't make it into control warrior, but faster warrior decks might use it.
Tentacles for arms seems interesting. Probably too expensive, but I could see some control warrior decks using it. There are a lot of armor pass turns in mirrors/ other control match ups.

Ancient shieldbearer shieldbearer replacement for c'thun decks.
bloodsail cultist is adorable. Also pretty solid if a pirate warrior deck works.
blood to ichor seems pretty solid.
N'Zoth's first mate might be good with pirate synergy.

All of the old gods, except Y'shaarj, seem like they will have a few solid decks built around them.
Yogg-saron of course will be relegated to hilarious decks that will likely cause you to lose, but still will probably be the second most played old god.
Y'shaarj might be good enough to see play in a lot of decks, except that a lot of minions need to be played so maybe not.
Deathwing, dragonlord is awesome, probably will be run in dragon decks.
Twin emperor vek'lor will probably see a lot of play in c'thun decks. Two 4/6 taunts for 7 is solid.
newkla could see some play in spell synergy decks.

Nat, the fatiguer will almost certainly be run in some fatigue decks, but those have never ended up being really competitive.
Shifter Zerus will probably be run some. It has a cool effect. Also adorable.
Scaled nightmare is really good with deathwing. Although maybe not much/any better then an 8/8.
Ancient Harbinger might see play since it can add consistency, but since it is at the start of your turn it probably won't.
Validated doomsayer probably isn't good enough. A lot of the time it will be a 0/7 taunt that dies the turn it is played.

Darkspeaker seems decent for shaman decks that use evolve.
Cyclopian horror seems really good vs aggro.
Doomcaller will almost certainly be run. Solid stats and +2/+2 to c'thun. Even if the second part of his battlecry is never used he is good I think.
Corrupted Seer is probably trash. The only class that has ever run murlocs that doesn't have way better aoe is warlock. I guess it could be run in some stall decks that just want more aoe, but 6 mana deal 2 damage isn't great.
Corrupted Healbot is probably going to be solid in a decent amount of decks. I am sure some priests will try running it with healing->damage effects.

blackwater Pirate seems pretty solid for pirate decks if they can work at all.
Eater of Secret(paladin')s does what it does if that is needed in the current meta will be played. Counters freeze mage and secret paladin right now.
Midnight drake could be good in some sort of hand deck, applies a lot of pressure but is easily killed.
Disciple of c'thun is probably decent low stats, but 2 damage is good. Probably will be run in most C'thun decks I think.
Nerubian Prophet might be run some. Needs to be in your hand for 3 turns to be good stats for mana.

Cult Apothecary might be run, seems okay with 2 enemy minions, and good with more.
C'thun's chosen pretty solid for c'thun decks probably.
Spawn of N'zoth is adorable, and might be good in zoo like decks.
twilight geomancer might be solid. Not sure if giving taunt to C'thun is going to ever matter though.
Tentacle of N'Zoth maybe some synergy with patron warrior. Another card that could be used if aggro decks are really popular.

It seems like they are trying to move the meta away from aggro decks with a lot of these cards.

Rodin

2016-04-23, 07:23 AM

Ah, I forgot just how crappy Stable Master is. Possibly because I've never seen the card outside of Randomium Brawl, because not even Arena players are crazy enough to pick her. Thanks for the correction.

Yeah, the card that was indefensible even when I thought it could be made Immune is even more indefensible.

Beelzebub1111

2016-04-23, 07:39 AM

Just had a great match with my murloc paladin. Victory in turn 6. It was against a hunter and I had a very lucky play when I played coldlight seer JUST before he would have wiped my board with explosive trap. My starting hand wasn't even that great. I just got real lucky with draws.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-23, 08:26 AM

Behold, comments on a select few of your comments!

Comments on new cards:A light in the darkness might see play in something, but probably not. 2 mana for +1/+1 on a random minion isn't going to better then choosing a minion in most places I think.

I think it'll see a lot of play. It's not entirely random, after all, it's Discover. So you get your choice of three random minions, and that could be a big deal. Any card that gives you options is pretty good. See: Jeweled Scarab.

Shadow word: horror, probably not great in general, but might see play to counter specific decks.

I don't disagree that it's not great, but something that's funny to note is that it now kills Knife Juggler.

Shadow strike is probably bad, rogue already has good single target removal.

Rogue doesn't have good midgame target removal. Eviscerate only works if you combo it with something, and Assassinate is very costly. Sap does work, but it's only a delay tactic. I expect this to see play.

Tentacles for arms seems interesting. Probably too expensive, but I could see some control warrior decks using it. There are a lot of armor pass turns in mirrors/ other control match ups.

I forget who it was, but there was a streamer who thought this might get included as a tech card in Control Warrior heavy metas because it's 2 damage per turn that never goes away.

blood to ichor seems pretty solid.

When I first evaluated this as not good, I'll admit I had entirely forgotten about Execute. It's decent with Grom, as well. I retract my earlier statement, and now consider this card to be good.

Validated doomsayer probably isn't good enough. A lot of the time it will be a 0/7 taunt that dies the turn it is played.

I maintain that this card isn't as bad as it looks, and might just be good, especially in a Paladin-heavy meta. It would be a lot better if Silence had been nerfed harder.

Eater of Secret(paladin')s does what it does if that is needed in the current meta will be played. Counters freeze mage and secret paladin right now.

I don't expect to see it too much unless Secret Paladin or the like is really dominating. Given that Secret Pally in Standard is losing Minibot, Muster, Avenge, and a bunch of other really good cards, I'm not sure how prevalent it'll be.

PsyBomb

2016-04-23, 10:24 AM

I expect Eater of Secrets to pop up more than Mystic in Wild. I will note that there were ZERO new secrets revealed, which I find odd.

Legoshrimp

2016-04-23, 11:15 AM

Behold, comments on a select few of your comments!

I think it'll see a lot of play. It's not entirely random, after all, it's Discover. So you get your choice of three random minions, and that could be a big deal. Any card that gives you options is pretty good. See: Jeweled Scarab.

I don't disagree that it's not great, but something that's funny to note is that it now kills Knife Juggler.

Rogue doesn't have good midgame target removal. Eviscerate only works if you combo it with something, and Assassinate is very costly. Sap does work, but it's only a delay tactic. I expect this to see play.

I forget who it was, but there was a streamer who thought this might get included as a tech card in Control Warrior heavy metas because it's 2 damage per turn that never goes away.

When I first evaluated this as not good, I'll admit I had entirely forgotten about Execute. It's decent with Grom, as well. I retract my earlier statement, and now consider this card to be good.

I maintain that this card isn't as bad as it looks, and might just be good, especially in a Paladin-heavy meta. It would be a lot better if Silence had been nerfed harder.

I don't expect to see it too much unless Secret Paladin or the like is really dominating. Given that Secret Pally in Standard is losing Minibot, Muster, Avenge, and a bunch of other really good cards, I'm not sure how prevalent it'll be.
Jeweled scarab has a board presence so it is way better, also it is somewhat more consistent. I am not sure if that is really a benefit though.

Hmm I guess it might see play since it doesn't need combo to deal 5 damage on turn 3. It just doesn't seem great.

I think that was kibler who said that.

Actually I think that blood to ichor might help make some of the new enrage minions better.

Doomsayer could work if paladin is really strong, but it doesn't look like it will be. I could be wrong about it. Also if it becomes super common people can just tech the 3/5 beast kill a minion with 2 or less attack to counter it :smalltongue:

I expect Eater of Secrets to pop up more than Mystic in Wild. I will note that there were ZERO new secrets revealed, which I find odd.
Actually I wouldn't be very surprised if eater of secrets is pretty common at the start, because freeze mage is probably going to be common. It will probably be seen in a lot of tournaments as a tech card.

Zevox

2016-04-23, 12:03 PM

Jeweled scarab has a board presence so it is way better, also it is somewhat more consistent. I am not sure if that is really a benefit though.
I would definitely say Jeweled Scarab is a better card than A Light in the Darkness. Even a weak body beats no body, and if you have to play it on 2, which you don't want to do normally, it at least guarantees you get something that helps you curve out. A Light in the Darkness is essentially 2 mana to put +1/+1 on a minion whose quality you can't even completely control, must play later at full mana cost, and unlike normal for buffs don't get to immediately benefit from the higher stats unless the minion naturally has charge. That strikes me as a very bad deal. It's awful for tempo and not even particularly good on value (how many minions would actually be worth +2 mana for only +1/+1 to their stats? I'm not sure there are any.).

PsyBomb

2016-04-23, 02:09 PM

This may sound a bit random... anyone else see potential in a Zoo Druid build? Disciple and Chosen of C'thun plus the 2-drop are enough to pump the big guy to fuel Klaxxi, add Brann and Staghelm plus some of the mode Druids, Swipe and Feral Rage, plus Nourish and Living Roots, then fill in the gaps from there. Usually won't drop the big guy, but it's there just in case. Addled Bear and Dark Arrakoa are possibilities as well.

Just a thought. Seems heavy on 3s, but possibly viable. I call it Zooid. Might end up more midrange

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-23, 06:10 PM

I would definitely say Jeweled Scarab is a better card than A Light in the Darkness. Even a weak body beats no body, and if you have to play it on 2, which you don't want to do normally, it at least guarantees you get something that helps you curve out. A Light in the Darkness is essentially 2 mana to put +1/+1 on a minion whose quality you can't even completely control, must play later at full mana cost, and unlike normal for buffs don't get to immediately benefit from the higher stats unless the minion naturally has charge. That strikes me as a very bad deal. It's awful for tempo and not even particularly good on value (how many minions would actually be worth +2 mana for only +1/+1 to their stats? I'm not sure there are any.).

Jeweled Scarab is literally 2 mana for 1/1 in Stats, plus the Discover. The discover is a bit more consistent, since it's at 3 mana, and you get the 1/1 right away instead of later, but neither of them is a card you really want to play on 2. Scarab is used, so I expect Light to be used.

D_Lord

2016-04-23, 06:13 PM

I would never play cho'gal not for the cost, sure you get spells early but for one turn and most of the good lock ones cost a bit so it take even more life out of us.

Zevox

2016-04-23, 06:17 PM

Jeweled Scarab is literally 2 mana for 1/1 in Stats, plus the Discover. The discover is a bit more consistent, since it's at 3 mana, and you get the 1/1 right away instead of later, but neither of them is a card you really want to play on 2. Scarab is used, so I expect Light to be used.
Neither is a card you want to play on 2, but Scarab is clearly a card you're much happier if you have to play it on 2, since it both gives you something immediately instead of nothing and guarantees you something playable next turn. And honestly, I don't think Light in the Darkness is something you'll even be particularly happy playing late in the game, since it's just playing a minion at +2 mana for +1/+1 stats, which isn't a good deal. Scarab can discover potent spells as well as minions (depending on if the class has good 3-mana spells, of course), which makes it more flexible in another way besides just whatever it has going for it.

And note that Scarab itself isn't a great card. It sees play, but only in Reno decks, which need to resort to some second-stringer cards in order to meet the "only one copy of each card" requirement. Given that, maybe LitD might make into a Reno Paladin deck, if such a thing is competitive, but I don't think it will see play anywhere else, and I have my doubts that it would see play even there. I certainly think you'd rather run Scarab, so I think it doesn't unless both somehow make sense.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-23, 06:34 PM

Rodin

2016-04-23, 07:08 PM

The thing I'm not quite sure on with Light is how much the class is going to effect how playable it is. Since you're more likely to get class cards, that improves the odds of getting Tyrion quite a bit. At the same time though, the only cards I regularly Discover with are Museum Curator and Scarab in Shaman. In Shaman, I'm always digging for Lighting Storm or another spell. With Museum Curator, it's always Deathrattle. The Deathrattle part matters more than you might think, because Chillmaw is a Deathrattle, and it's very common to get him.

There's also a bonus for cards of the current set, but looking at the Paladin cards for this set, the minions don't look all that appealing when it comes to digging for answers.

Overall, I think it's going to depend on just what the odds of getting a decent card are. There's a lot of junk, but a lot of it is getting pushed out with the move to Standard, and the non-Whispers Paladin minions all look like pretty good grabs. Of course, it's always possible that you'll get a choice of Goldshire Footman, Undertaker, Tournament Attendee.

Zevox

2016-04-23, 07:15 PM

It's not always going to be just a minion at +1/+1. The value of Discover is that it'll often let you pick a card that's relevant to the board situation. If you're paying 6 mana for a 5/6 Yeti that's not great, but if you're paying 5 mana for a 4/4 MCT when your opponent has 4 minions out, that's really good. This card is good because the worst case scenario, 2 mana for +1/+1, is sort of average, and the best case scenario is great.
I would strongly disagree that 2 mana for +1/+1 is at all average - it's a distinctly bad deal (so much so that Explorer's Hat has to come with built-in infinite uses to justify it, for example, and still doesn't see play). And with the card pulling from the entire pool of neutral and class minions, it's hard to see the likelihood of a best-case scenario where you pull something great for your specific situation happening that often - as opposed again to Scarab, who pulling from a specific mana cost has a much narrower range of what it can pull, which does include potent cards like MCT, Muster (pre-Standard anyway), Hex, some Mage secrets, etc.

I think you're very much overestimating the card. Another point of comparison would be Raven Idol: it loses the option of choosing a spell and costs 1 more mana, while gaining only +1/+1 in stats. Again, looks like a bad deal, and that's compared to a card that hasn't seen a lot of competitive play. I don't think there's any comparison that does make LitD look good.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-23, 07:29 PM

I would strongly disagree that 2 mana for +1/+1 is at all average - it's a distinctly bad deal (so much so that Explorer's Hat has to come with built-in infinite uses to justify it, for example, and still doesn't see play). And with the card pulling from the entire pool of neutral and class minions, it's hard to see the likelihood of a best-case scenario where you pull something great for your specific situation happening that often - as opposed again to Scarab, who pulling from a specific mana cost has a much narrower range of what it can pull, which does include potent cards like MCT, Muster (pre-Standard anyway), Hex, some Mage secrets, etc.

I think you're very much overestimating the card. Another point of comparison would be Raven Idol: it loses the option of choosing a spell and costs 1 more mana, while gaining only +1/+1 in stats. Again, looks like a bad deal, and that's compared to a card that hasn't seen a lot of competitive play. I don't think there's any comparison that does make LitD look good.

It's also a point that Explorer's Hat is in Hunter, the class that least cares about value on board, and doesn't supply its own minion, so it's useless as a topdeck. In any case, I think you're very much underestimating Light. I'll be playing around with it a lot, myself. Might try keeping some stats, see how often it gets something good vs how often it's terrible.

GAAD

2016-04-23, 08:36 PM

Me and my friend's thoughts on all the cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFdd0vanExA

Also: Just reached Rank 5! W00T!

PsyBomb

2016-04-23, 08:55 PM

Me and my friend's thoughts on all the cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFdd0vanExA

Also: Just reached Rank 5! W00T!

And that last game was nuts...

neriractor

2016-04-23, 09:27 PM

Me and my friend's thoughts on all the cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFdd0vanExA

Also: Just reached Rank 5! W00T!

Gave you a like, nice video albeit a bit too long.

Edit: does anybody have experience with patron warrior? I'm trying to build one with little success and will like some advice.

Rosstin

2016-04-24, 02:09 AM

A Farewell To Naxx and GVG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJsIzHKTLw0

moossabi

2016-04-24, 02:40 AM

A Farewell To Naxx and GVG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJsIzHKTLw0

And as Dr Boom went away, a song began to play in my mind...

One from the beginning of Wizard of Oz...

"Ding Dong the Witch is Dead"

(:smalltongue:)

I'm sorry if my constant hatred of Dr. Boom has offended anyone, but I'm so tired of seeing him in every single* upper-rank deck in the game.

*Hyperbole

Talion

2016-04-24, 02:55 AM

And as Dr Boom went away, a song began to play in my mind...

One from the beginning of Wizard of Oz...

"Ding Dong the Witch is Dead"

(:smalltongue:)

I'm sorry if my constant hatred of Dr. Boom has offended anyone, but I'm so tired of seeing him in every single* upper-rank deck in the game.

*Hyperbole

Amen to that. Besides, I'm sure there's an equally annoying replacement that'll show up soon enough.

Rodin

2016-04-24, 04:45 AM

For some reason Boom has even been invading my Arena runs the past few days. Seen him in the last 3 runs, once for myself and twice for opponents.

It did afford me an opportunity to see an interaction I didn't know existed: Boom vs. Sacred Trial. If you have 1 minion and play Dr. Boom, it plays Boom, then he battlecries to summon in two Boom Bots...and then that counts as 4 minions, and Boom goes bye-bye. I would have thought that the second Boombot would eat it, but nope.

The order of operations in Hearthstone makes my head hurt sometimes.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-24, 07:31 AM

Landis963

2016-04-24, 10:00 AM

Fun fact: Sacrifice Pact still works on Jaraxxus. I know this because that's how I won my last Tavern Brawl.

PsyBomb

2016-04-24, 10:43 AM

Fun fact: Sacrifice Pact still works on Jaraxxus. I know this because that's how I won my last Tavern Brawl.

That makes me glad I saw it on Trolden before the situation came up for me. Granted, nobody uses the Pact in Constructed, but still....

well, people might start again for Renounce decks, but it won't be hanging around for the late game.

Zevox

2016-04-24, 11:41 AM

So, I've been thinking a bit recently about how decks will change with Whispers and Standard, and I'm a bit surprised by how many decks I think should stick around. Some alterations are necessary to most, of course, but fewer truly get gutted than I thought would. Here's how I think it probably shakes down:

Decks that stay. - Some changes needed, but not too many. Should remain viable.
Hunter: Face, Midrange.
- Face Hunter does take a fairly large hit between all the nerfs plus losing Haunted Creeper and Mad Scientist, but it also loses a lot of cards that were among its worst enemies, like Chow, Healbot, and Sludge Belcher, so I think it finds a way to stick around.
Mage: Freeze.
Priest: Dragon, Control.
Rogue: Mill.
Shaman: Face.
Warrior: Control.
Warlock: Zoo, Handlock.
- Zoo requires more significant changes than others on this list, but it existed and even thrived before Naxxramas/GvG, so I don't think there's reason to believe it won't stick around.

Decks that are in danger. - May or may not be able to cope with the losses of Naxx & GvG or nerfs to classic cards.
Mage: Tempo.
- Loss of Mad Scientist and Unstable Portal are two important sources of the deck's namesake down the drain, and Flame Cannon is no small loss either. Its ability to win the early game is now much weaker, and what Mage got in this expansion doesn't really fit in this deck, I think.
Paladin: Murloc.
- Loss of Old Murk-Eye is big. We'll see if it's big enough to kill the deck.
Warrior: Patron.
- Death's Bite is just that big of a deal, and that new Ghoul is no replacement. Might still find a way, but I think it also might not.
Warlock/General: Reno.
- While Reno is of course still around, the loss of a lot of solid cards from GvG & Naxx and the new cards generally not being as powerful as the ones from those expansions make me wonder if he'll still work out.I could just be wrong and this one is staying, but I think it's worth questioning at least.

Decks that are gone. - It's either totally impossible for these to remain or so close to it that I don't think any replacement will bear much resemblance to what we know them as today.
Druid: Midrange.
- No more combo, nerfed Keeper and Lore, losing Shredder and Boom - if a Midrange Druid stays a thing, it'll have to look pretty different.
Mage: Mech.
Paladin: Midrange, Secret.
- Early game got gutted, and I don't see much replacing it. Secret also loses its best secret, Avenge, which is huge. We'll see if people can figure something out, but if they do, I strongly suspect it'll look more like a new deck than like the existing ones.
Rogue: Oil.

As a bonus, old decks that might come back: Midrange Shaman, Ramp Druid, Token Druid. Druid needs replacements for its long-dominant deck archetype, and the overall weakening of Standard decks might push Midrange Shaman back into being competitive.

Edit: Oh dear. Guys. A thought occurred to me as I was looking over the list of Whispers cards. Remember Wisps of the Old Gods? That Druid card that looked pretty underpowered? I think there might be something that gives it potential. Namely, the new Druid legendary. If that's on the board, Wisps of the Old Gods becomes "fill your board with 3/3 Wisps and give your other minions +2/+2" for 7 mana. Which is better than arguably the best of Rafaam's artifact cards, the Mirror that fills your board with Mummies. And to top it off, it's only an 11-mana combo - playable in one turn in the late game with just one Thaurissan discount or coin/Innervate.
:eek:

Beelzebub1111

2016-04-24, 11:49 AM

Fun fact: Sacrifice Pact still works on Jaraxxus. I know this because that's how I won my last Tavern Brawl.

So does sacred trial and repentance. Jaraxxus is a bad play against paladins.

Also, no more old murk-eye? Why? :'(

Mando Knight

2016-04-24, 12:01 PM

Edit: Oh dear. Guys. A thought occurred to me as I was looking over the list of Whispers cards. Remember Wisps of the Old Gods? That Druid card that looked pretty underpowered? I think there might be something that gives it potential. Namely, the new Druid legendary. If that's on the board, Wisps of the Old Gods becomes "fill your board with 3/3 Wisps and give your other minions +2/+2" for 7 mana. Which is better than arguably the best of Rafaam's artifact cards, the Mirror that fills your board with Mummies. And to top it off, it's only an 11-mana combo - playable in one turn in the late game with just one Thaurissan discount or coin/Innervate.
:eek:

The nature of the Choose One cards is that while Fandral offers a decent buff for the minions (Charge on the Druids of the Saber and Claw compared to their high-stat forms, +3 attack on Druid of the Flame compared to its fire-hawk form), the spells become a lot stronger since all of their value is in the Choose part rather than having some of it wrapped up in base stats.

Zevox

2016-04-24, 12:17 PM

The nature of the Choose One cards is that while Fandral offers a decent buff for the minions (Charge on the Druids of the Saber and Claw compared to their high-stat forms, +3 attack on Druid of the Flame compared to its fire-hawk form), the spells become a lot stronger since all of their value is in the Choose part rather than having some of it wrapped up in base stats.
Yes, but that particular one could be game-winningly strong. The others turn each of those cards into stronger cards, sure, but that combo is even stronger than Muster + Trueheart-enhanced hero power + Quartermaster, and that could just outright win games if the opponent didn't have a big enough board wipe on hand right then and there. I could easily see that becoming a cornerstone of Druid decks in the future.

Legoshrimp

2016-04-24, 01:40 PM

Yes, but that particular one could be game-winningly strong. The others turn each of those cards into stronger cards, sure, but that combo is even stronger than Muster + Trueheart-enhanced hero power + Quartermaster, and that could just outright win games if the opponent didn't have a big enough board wipe on hand right then and there. I could easily see that becoming a cornerstone of Druid decks in the future.

It is a lot weaker then muster + trueheart + quartermaster, because you can actually get value out of those cards before turn 10 without much set up.

Zevox

2016-04-24, 01:51 PM

It is a lot weaker then muster + trueheart + quartermaster, because you can actually get value out of those cards before turn 10 without much set up.
You can certainly use the Druid legendary to good effect outside of that combo, and while Wisps is obviously much weaker without the combo, that combo might be so potent that you accept the possibility of having to use Wisps as a weaker card if things don't go your way in order to have the chance to get it.

And it's not like Druid is a stranger to running certain cards just for one game-ending combo - Savage Roar was situational as all hell without Force, and Force was just straight-up underpowered without Savage, both similar to what can be said for Wisps' two effects. Yes, this isn't immediately game-ending like Force + Savage, but it is very much going to win the game without specific counters being in the opponent's hand when you play it - something on the level of Flamestrike, Hellfire, Brawl, Equality + Consecrate, Lightning Storm + spell damage, etc. - and that might be plenty strong enough in the new meta, I think.

GAAD

2016-04-24, 01:56 PM

So does sacred trial and repentance. Jaraxxus is a bad play against paladins.

Also, no more old murk-eye? Why? :'(

Because with Old Murk-eye, Anyfin Paladin remains untouched. And in a slower meta, it will reign supreme.

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-24, 02:19 PM

So does sacred trial and repentance. Jaraxxus is a bad play against paladins.

Also, no more old murk-eye? Why? :'(
Blizzard has said that since Murk-Eye is a promotional/reward card (despite the fact that you get it as a reward for crafting certain Classic cards), it's not a part of the Basic or Classic sets, therefore it's not in Standard.

I'm 80% sure it's because they didn't expect Anyfin OTK, and so they needed to find an emergency way to nerf the deck.

Edit: does anybody have experience with patron warrior? I'm trying to build one with little success and will like some advice.
You want decklist, gameplay advice, or both? I don't know my decklist offhand, but I know I have 2x Inner Rage, 2x Whirlwind, 2x Death's Bite, 2x Patron, 2x Unstable Ghoul, a Dread Corsair, 2x Kor'koron Elite, Grommash Hellscream, Dr. Boom, 2x Frothing Berserker, 2x Fiery War Axe, 2x Armorsmith, 2x Acolyte of Pain, Sir Finley Mrrglton, 2x Slam, 2x Execute, and 2x Battle Rage...and I guess I know my decklist after all. Guess that happens when you play the deck a lot...

Basically, you want to keep the pace with your deck, using Slam either to combo with weapons (Slam + War Axe draws a card and kills a 5-health minion), or else to set up Executes. The opponent's deck will determine what you use it for. You also want to set up for a Turn 5 Patron turn against most decks: play Death's Bite and use it on Turn 4, then drop Patron and Inner Rage T5, and hit something with Death's Bite. You can follow up with Whirlwind on a following turn.

Your Patron turns give you a lot of armor from Armorsmith, or they can make Berserker into a massive threat. Plus, they're able to trade into enemy fields, and you can often just use Whirlwind to generate more before a bunch of trading.

Battle Rage's use can vary; against a control deck, use it after a Patron turn to outvalue them by drawing a bunch of cards. Against a more aggressive turn, feel free to use it as a 2-mana Arcane Intellect to get to more of your cards.

Grommash is your final burst, if you need it. He's 10 points of damage, or 12 if you Inner Rage him, on Turn 8, stopped only by taunts. You can also hold your last charge of Death's Bite to trigger Grommash on Turn 8 and burst for 14 damage.

Legoshrimp

2016-04-24, 03:23 PM

You can certainly use the Druid legendary to good effect outside of that combo, and while Wisps is obviously much weaker without the combo, that combo might be so potent that you accept the possibility of having to use Wisps as a weaker card if things don't go your way in order to have the chance to get it.

And it's not like Druid is a stranger to running certain cards just for one game-ending combo - Savage Roar was situational as all hell without Force, and Force was just straight-up underpowered without Savage, both similar to what can be said for Wisps' two effects. Yes, this isn't immediately game-ending like Force + Savage, but it is very much going to win the game without specific counters being in the opponent's hand when you play it - something on the level of Flamestrike, Hellfire, Brawl, Equality + Consecrate, Lightning Storm + spell damage, etc. - and that might be plenty strong enough in the new meta, I think.

Except savage roar without force of nature is still better then wisps without fandral. I think you are really underestimating how bad wisps is without getting both effects. It is your entire turn for 7 1/1s. Savage roar at least can be comboed with any board presence, or charge minions.

Grytorm

2016-04-24, 03:47 PM

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-24, 04:10 PM

How many spells does it take to make Flamewaker viable? I'm thinking about trying a C'thun Mage deck and I don't think I had enough spells on the list to justify Flamewaker. When I reached 30 cards I was sitting on about 8 spells total. I could probably up that by replacing Disciple of C'thun with Forgotten Torch.
I would suggest starting with a standard Tempo Mage and swapping out Antonidas for C'thun, and see where that leads you. Might be able to swap out Antonidas and Duplicate, and swap in 2x Disciple of C'thun.

(Tempo Mage's spells include 2x Frostbolt, 2x Mirror Image, 2x Arcane Missiles, 2x Unstable Portal--which you'd have to replace, and often 2x Forgotten Torch, plus a few secrets. And double Fireball, obviously.)

Zevox

2016-04-24, 04:12 PM

Except savage roar without force of nature is still better then wisps without fandral. I think you are really underestimating how bad wisps is without getting both effects. It is your entire turn for 7 1/1s. Savage roar at least can be comboed with any board presence, or charge minions.
Oh no, believe me, I know Wisps is bad on its own - look back to what I said about it when it was first revealed if you doubt that at all. But so is Savage Roar - just as it's hard to build a board worth using Wisps' buff on without that combo, it's hard to build a board worth using Savage Roar on without Force. And just comboing Roar with the one charge minion Midrange Druid runs, Druid of the Claw, is not exactly an impressive alternative.

That said, I certainly agree that in a vacuum Savage Roar is a better card than Wisps, and if Force + Savage was still going to be around, it would probably mean Fandral + Wisps never even gets considered. But it won't be, and Druid will need new things that they can build their decks around. Fandral + Wisps definitely looks to me like it could be one. Whether that will pan out or get overshadowed by something else remains to be seen, but I think it's more than worth keeping an eye on.

Destro_Yersul

2016-04-24, 05:01 PM

neriractor

2016-04-24, 05:12 PM

:smallbiggrin:

You want decklist, gameplay advice, or both? I don't know my decklist offhand, but I know I have 2x Inner Rage, 2x Whirlwind, 2x Death's Bite, 2x Patron, 2x Unstable Ghoul, a Dread Corsair, 2x Kor'koron Elite, Grommash Hellscream, Dr. Boom, 2x Frothing Berserker, 2x Fiery War Axe, 2x Armorsmith, 2x Acolyte of Pain, Sir Finley Mrrglton, 2x Slam, 2x Execute, and 2x Battle Rage...and I guess I know my decklist after all. Guess that happens when you play the deck a lot...

Basically, you want to keep the pace with your deck, using Slam either to combo with weapons (Slam + War Axe draws a card and kills a 5-health minion), or else to set up Executes. The opponent's deck will determine what you use it for. You also want to set up for a Turn 5 Patron turn against most decks: play Death's Bite and use it on Turn 4, then drop Patron and Inner Rage T5, and hit something with Death's Bite. You can follow up with Whirlwind on a following turn.

Your Patron turns give you a lot of armor from Armorsmith, or they can make Berserker into a massive threat. Plus, they're able to trade into enemy fields, and you can often just use Whirlwind to generate more before a bunch of trading.

Battle Rage's use can vary; against a control deck, use it after a Patron turn to outvalue them by drawing a bunch of cards. Against a more aggressive turn, feel free to use it as a 2-mana Arcane Intellect to get to more of your cards.

Grommash is your final burst, if you need it. He's 10 points of damage, or 12 if you Inner Rage him, on Turn 8, stopped only by taunts. You can also hold your last charge of Death's Bite to trigger Grommash on Turn 8 and burst for 14 damage.

Thanks for the deck list and the advice on how to play the deck, I'll try it out (minus a few missing cards) and tell you how it goes :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

2016-04-24, 05:24 PM

AgentPaper

2016-04-24, 05:25 PM

I think in that combo, Wisps would maybe be a one-off card, since it's pretty bad to draw on its own. As a two-card combo, it could be slotted into any Druid pretty easily. Maybe you run two wisps and try to make Midrange Token druid work? If you have a Violet Teacher on the board, you just need one other thing for the Wisps buff to be slightly below average, two for it to be good. Since new Force has the tokens stick around, that's a potential way to build a board. It'd give you a Violet Apprentice as well. I don't know if that's actually good, or just too hard to get working. Maybe Shade of Naxx gets replaced with Silent Knight?

I don't think it's really going to be much of a thing. Wisps might see some play, mostly in Token druid as a way to turn a full board into a win by buffing everything and attacking, and you may even see Fandral in the same decks to boost your "choose one" spells and creatures (Druid of the Claw will still be a staple, and Living Roots, Power of the Wild, and Cenarius are all great for token Druid), but I doubt that holding on to Fandral to maybe hopefully pair up with Wisps will be a very good strategy when you could instead just play him earlier and get a lot of value out of the mostly much cheaper Choose One cards. I suspect it'll be more like Brann and a lot of the high-mana battlecry effects: You'll see it sometimes, and it'll be cool when it happens, but in general you aren't putting in either piece primarily to combo with the others.

Legoshrimp

2016-04-24, 05:32 PM

I think in that combo, Wisps would maybe be a one-off card, since it's pretty bad to draw on its own. As a two-card combo, it could be slotted into any Druid pretty easily. Maybe you run two wisps and try to make Midrange Token druid work? If you have a Violet Teacher on the board, you just need one other thing for the Wisps buff to be slightly below average, two for it to be good. Since new Force has the tokens stick around, that's a potential way to build a board. It'd give you a Violet Apprentice as well. I don't know if that's actually good, or just too hard to get working. Maybe Shade of Naxx gets replaced with Silent Knight?

If the meta is slow enough and druid can afford to run a few cards that are going to be useless a lot of the time maybe. Another problem with that is you kind of need to save fandral for it. Also I think running fandral + ancient of war is actually a better combo, because you can get value out of fandral with other choose cards, and you probably won't lose the game because you played ancient of war on turn 7. I think a lot of the time if your turn 7 play is wisps you are probably on the way towards losing, or on the very rare occasions you are playing it for the buff winning anyways.
I think the largest value it is going to get will come from people forgetting it exists and not playing around it.

One thing I might be ignoring is getting extra value with things like innervate, but that is pretty situational.
A token deck might give it enough situations to make it work. Although maybe not...
I mean even turn 4 violet teacher. It doesn't die into turn 5 innervate wisps is kind of meh.
I guess if you can create a deck that has enough meh situational uses mixed with the really good ones it might be okay.

Grytorm

2016-04-24, 05:38 PM

I would suggest starting with a standard Tempo Mage and swapping out Antonidas for C'thun, and see where that leads you. Might be able to swap out Antonidas and Duplicate, and swap in 2x Disciple of C'thun.

(Tempo Mage's spells include 2x Frostbolt, 2x Mirror Image, 2x Arcane Missiles, 2x Unstable Portal--which you'd have to replace, and often 2x Forgotten Torch, plus a few secrets. And double Fireball, obviously.)

That's actually a much better way to go about it than throwing in everything I might want to play and then working from there (the first 30 cuts are easy). I do have a list I kind of like, but it definitely seems pretty control oriented, the plan really is to use the large amount of removal to police the board while building up towards C'thun or Antonidas. Could you tell me what you think?

2 Arcane Blast
1 Magic Missle
2 Beckoner of Evil
2 Cult Sorcerer
2 Disciple of C'thun
2 Frostbolt
2 Flamewaker
2 C'Thun's Chosen
2 Refreshment Vendor
2 Fireball
2 Crazed Worshipper
2 Azure Drake
1 Cabalist's Tome
1 Emperor Thaurissan
2 Faceless Summoner
1 Archmage Antonidas
1 Twin Emperor
1 C'thun

CarpeGuitarrem

2016-04-24, 06:24 PM

That's actually a much better way to go about it than throwing in everything I might want to play and then working from there (the first 30 cuts are easy). I do have a list I kind of like, but it definitely seems pretty control oriented, the plan really is to use the large amount of removal to police the board while building up towards C'thun or Antonidas. Could you tell me what you think?

2 Arcane Blast
1 Magic Missle
2 Beckoner of Evil
2 Cult Sorcerer
2 Disciple of C'thun
2 Frostbolt
2 Flamewaker
2 C'Thun's Chosen
2 Refreshment Vendor
2 Fireball
2 Crazed Worshipper
2 Azure Drake
1 Cabalist's Tome
1 Emperor Thaurissan
2 Faceless Summoner
1 Archmage Antonidas
1 Twin Emperor
1 C'thun
That seems like a solid start. I might try and find a little more low-end taunt (Mirror Image is not a value-heavy card, but it's still a very useful card in spell-synergy decks--Disciple of C'thun into Mirror Image protects it to let you cast more spells in the future), but may as well keep that in mind to take for a spin. You ought to have enough low-end removal; I'd even consider taking out Beckoner of Evil, although having a low-curve minion can definitely help.

Hadn't thought of Crazed Worshipper synergy with Mage, that's pretty interesting!

I'd also cut Antonidas in favor of something else, and commit to C'thun as your win condition. Otherwise, you wind up sacrificing effectiveness by trying to rely on both.