How to Ruin an NPC's Life. Forever.

[antoin]

So my character needed to find transport to a dangerous island to do the quest. He arrives in the (foreign) city, he's a wealthy gentleman and dresses in the finest merchant silks etc. Clearly in the very upper echelon of society. He finds a captain. The captain is rude and laughs off my character's request.

"No matter, I guess we'll find a captain skilled enough to take us there," my character says, hoping his very evident pride (and the promise of money with someone of my character's stature and evident wealth) will get him to rethink his choice and give us a ride. My character begins walking away. Then he gets all mad, and has one of his henchmen strike me on the head with a club. Under orders from this captain. The henchman was just following orders and didn't know better. It's not his fault. My character is smart, he understands this.

But the captain.

This man needs to learn his place. Hard. The worst part? He demanded payment after our paladin broke up this scuffle, and the paladin insisted I give it to him to avoid further problems. The captain attempted to insult my character's mathematical skills, and after being corrected, was given his petty silver.

This man needs to learn his place.

It's been a few days and my character has been pondering this insult. And this captain needs to be driven in to the ground. Some rude words, eh, whatever. But resorting to violence against a person of my character's evident status...well, he sealed his fate. But I (the player) am not sure how to go about this (I don't go about ruining people's lives). Your advice on ruining this NPC's existence is greatly appreciated!

[Telonius]

You're going to need to gather some information on this guy. Find out what his goals are, and the most important part of his reputation. You'd need to tailor your response depending on what you find. Reputation as a fearless captain? Make sure he runs away, very publicly. Reputation for honesty? Catch him in an obvious, public lie. Is his ship the best, most worthwhile part of his life? Sink it (and make sure he can't collect on any insurance policy he might have).

[antoin]

Best way to do this without getting my character's hands dirty? Our party is sadly deprived of charismatic people. Which brings up another point. He should know that this was because of his insult to my character, but no one else should (I want to avoid trouble).

[Quiver]

My advice will be counter productive at first, so hear me out:

Make the Captain's life awesome.

Make sure everything goes his way. Be the mysterious benefactor, helping him get money, status and influence. Help him work his way into high society. Make all his dreams and ambitions come true.

Then, tear them apart.

Piece by piece, break him down. Take away everything that he has accomplished and earned. Put him in a desperate situation...
Then step out of the shadows, and offer to help him. Your price?
The amount of silver you had to pay to him.

[Troacctid]

Cast bestow curse on him. Simple and effective.

The standard curses aren't especially humiliating, so you may want to come up with a more creative one, like making everyone perceive him as horrifically ugly, or giving him perpetual explosive diarrhea.

[antoin]

Make the Captain's life awesome.

[...]

Then, tear them apart.

This. I like this thinking.


Cast bestow curse on him. Simple and effective.

PF Alchemist here, sadly I do not have access to Bestow Curse or the like. My party would not support this plan, either, but what they don't know won't hurt them. And I want it to be much more painful than a curse. He can just blame his problems on the curse then.

[Madara]

What trade are they mostly in?

You said you're wealthy, put him out of a job by bringing in competition.
You said you're charismatic, join a governing body to place unfair regulations on people in his trading industry.

Also....
Red Fel
Red Fel
Crimson Flail

[antoin]

What trade are they mostly in?

You said you're wealthy, put him out of a job by bringing in competition.
You said you're charismatic, join a governing body to place unfair regulations on people in his trading industry.

Also....
Red Fel
Red Fel
Crimson Flail

I said I'm not charismatic, and if we must summon him to this thread, you did it wrong.
Ahem.
Red Fel.
Red Fel.
Red Fel.

[AmberVael]

You're a man of class, and you don't want to get your hands dirty? Okay. Then take him down completely legally.

First, investigate him (don't stalk or snoop after him, mind, just ask around and maybe do a bit of digging). He's a man who doesn't mind sending goons to assault people in the street just because they're a bit snooty, he's going to have some dirt on him. Once you have the dirt, simply turn it over to anyone interested - authorities, other captains, the local bar. If it gets actual legal action taken against him, cool. But also do your best to simply discredit and defame him. Don't shout it yourself, but a few well placed words from you and a handful of coins and prompting to local kids and beggars and drunks will get it all out into the open pretty quick.

Second, investigating him will turn up what he does, his precise occupation. Again, you're a man of wealth and class... use that. If he's a trader, start lobbying for new taxes and tariffs on what he ships. If he's a smuggler or pirate, put a bounty on him and give nice donations to the authorities. Etc.

Third, steal his crew. Find out what they want. Give it to them. Get them to find a new life, or turn them against him, or hire them yourself. And try and use your discrediting and defamation of him to discourage others from joining him. Leave him alone. Its hard to be a captain when you've got no one on your ship.


You could take it further... but you know, you're a man of class. Destroying his way of life and isolating him is probably enough to teach him a lesson.

[Âmesang]

A character of mine did this not out of vengeance but simple evilness, but you could start by inviting the captain out for a drink… and once he's all liquored up, break out your "private stock" — a wine bottle of acid (1½ flasks of acid). :smallamused: You're an alchemist, you should be able to pull it off. Besides, while there may be a detect poison, there's no detect acid.

I suppose you could also challenge him to a fight to the pain… (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_keWS1i3RA)

[Strigon]

My advice will be counter productive at first, so hear me out:

Make the Captain's life awesome.

Make sure everything goes his way. Be the mysterious benefactor, helping him get money, status and influence. Help him work his way into high society. Make all his dreams and ambitions come true.

Then, tear them apart.

Piece by piece, break him down. Take away everything that he has accomplished and earned. Put him in a desperate situation...
Then step out of the shadows, and offer to help him. Your price?
The amount of silver you had to pay to him.

Well, well, well.
Someone's childhood hero was Edmond Dantes.

[Necroticplague]

What level of spells do you have access to? I find that Polymorph Any Object to permanently change someone's form,or Mindrape/Necrotic Domination to force them to perform acts against their own will are good seperately, and brutally effective together.

[Telonius]

You don't want to get your hands dirty personally, he's obviously got some illegal stuff going on, and there's a Paladin in your party? The dots shouldn't be all that hard to connect.

[Keltest]

Compel him to travel with your party somehow. Just being a bystander for whatever nonsense you guys get into will make him want to regret being born.

We had a dwarf who had to travel with us for a while once. His beard got burned off, he got killed and turned into a zombie, his corpse was desecrated, and he got resurrected, all in the time it took for us to travel the few miles to his home city.

[Flickerdart]

Get enough negative levels to put you at level 9.

Use a power stone of mind seed to turn the captain into yourself at level 1. The captain's life, in effect, has ended. He has become you.

Use restoration to erase your negative levels.

[antoin]

What level of spells do you have access to? I find that Polymorph Any Object to permanently change someone's form,or Mindrape/Necrotic Domination to force them to perform acts against their own will are good seperately, and brutally effective together.

4th-level spells are the cap (low-magic world), and we're currently a ~5th level party.


You're a man of class, and you don't want to get your hands dirty? Okay. Then take him down completely legally.

First, investigate him (don't stalk or snoop after him, mind, just ask around and maybe do a bit of digging). He's a man who doesn't mind sending goons to assault people in the street just because they're a bit snooty, he's going to have some dirt on him. Once you have the dirt, simply turn it over to anyone interested - authorities, other captains, the local bar. If it gets actual legal action taken against him, cool. But also do your best to simply discredit and defame him. Don't shout it yourself, but a few well placed words from you and a handful of coins and prompting to local kids and beggars and drunks will get it all out into the open pretty quick.

Second, investigating him will turn up what he does, his precise occupation. Again, you're a man of wealth and class... use that. If he's a trader, start lobbying for new taxes and tariffs on what he ships. If he's a smuggler or pirate, put a bounty on him and give nice donations to the authorities. Etc.

Third, steal his crew. Find out what they want. Give it to them. Get them to find a new life, or turn them against him, or hire them yourself. And try and use your discrediting and defamation of him to discourage others from joining him. Leave him alone. Its hard to be a captain when you've got no one on your ship.


You could take it further... but you know, you're a man of class. Destroying his way of life and isolating him is probably enough to teach him a lesson.

I mean, depends on how well he learns, right?:smallwink: And great suggestions!


Compel him to travel with your party somehow. Just being a bystander for whatever nonsense you guys get into will make him want to regret being born.

We had a dwarf who had to travel with us for a while once. His beard got burned off, he got killed and turned into a zombie, his corpse was desecrated, and he got resurrected, all in the time it took for us to travel the few miles to his home city.

Lol. PC's are the root of all evil everything in a world, aren't they?

[johnbragg]

Alter self gives a +10 bonus to Disguise checks. I bet you could do a LOT to ruin his life that way. Especially after a little bit of investigating turns up the dirt on him. Alter Self let's you set him up to spill the dirt on himself around town.

[martixy]

I also don't think you should invest too many resources in humiliating him. If he gets you that invested in retribution I feel it kind of defeats the purpose of doing it. He basically trolled you. You know what they say, don't feed the trolls. Or you could arrange a troll to try and feed on him.

But my point is, be efficient and smart about it, otherwise he's won.

[Coidzor]

Arrange to acquire his debts and a legal hold on his vessel if not outright ownership.

Get him stuck in a cycle of enriching you without hope of ever escaping or being able to get out from under his obligations.

If he has family, arrange for them to become destitute enough that they're your hostages for as long as he works for you and in debtor's prison or worse if he tries to turn pirate.

Alternatively, have a disposable minion infect his crew with ghoul fever or zombie plague so they turn into monsters at sea and he probably gets eaten.

[Crake]

Can you not like... Report him to the town guard for assault and then sue him for all his assets? You said you were wealthy man, put that money to use with a lawyer.

[Troacctid]

One possible use of bestow curse, as described in Book of Vile Darkness, is to cause the subject's entire fortune to be stolen by thieves at some point within the next week (or at the earliest available opportunity thereafter).

[Lhurgyof]

So my character needed to find transport to a dangerous island to do the quest. He arrives in the (foreign) city, he's a wealthy gentleman and dresses in the finest merchant silks etc. Clearly in the very upper echelon of society. He finds a captain. The captain is rude and laughs off my character's request.

"No matter, I guess we'll find a captain skilled enough to take us there," my character says, hoping his very evident pride (and the promise of money with someone of my character's stature and evident wealth) will get him to rethink his choice and give us a ride. My character begins walking away. Then he gets all mad, and has one of his henchmen strike me on the head with a club. Under orders from this captain. The henchman was just following orders and didn't know better. It's not his fault. My character is smart, he understands this.

But the captain.

This man needs to learn his place. Hard. The worst part? He demanded payment after our paladin broke up this scuffle, and the paladin insisted I give it to him to avoid further problems. The captain attempted to insult my character's mathematical skills, and after being corrected, was given his petty silver.

This man needs to learn his place.

It's been a few days and my character has been pondering this insult. And this captain needs to be driven in to the ground. Some rude words, eh, whatever. But resorting to violence against a person of my character's evident status...well, he sealed his fate. But I (the player) am not sure how to go about this (I don't go about ruining people's lives). Your advice on ruining this NPC's existence is greatly appreciated!


I'd check the Book of Vile Darkness for the alternate curses (such as making him invisible to all other humans, making anybody that meets him have a 50% chance of hating him, or rendering him sterile). In fact, a lot of the spells in that book can ruin someone's life.

[Gildedragon]

I'd check the Book of Vile Darkness for the alternate curses (such as making him invisible to all other humans, making anybody that meets him have a 50% chance of hating him, or rendering him sterile). In fact, a lot of the spells in that book can ruin someone's life.

Use his family as sacrifices to fuel the spells?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Set his boat on fire.

There's nothing an old sea-dog holds more dearly than his ship. Arrange things so that his ship is to transport a shipment of alchmist's fire. Sneak on board, rig a trap to the containers so that when it goes off, there's blazing alchemical fluids all over the interior of his cargo hold. The whole thing burns down to the water line and his career and livelihood are destroyed. That or try to arrange so the trap is sprung at sea so that he and his crew burn/drown to death. Watching them sail away with the knowledge that they're never coming back has a certain satisfaction.

[Garktz]

Kidnap him, get him into a cell of yours.
Alter serlf yourself into him.
Force him to watch through a scry on yourself.
Go murder his family disguised as him.
Then take his family corpses (still disguised as him) and hang the corpses of his family from the main mast.
When the authorities come after him (you disguised as him), say with a lot of people watching something along these lines "I sacrifice myself to the abyss and ofer this ship, my family corpses and myself, Mr. Captain, as a sacrifice for all the abyss glory"
Burn down the ship, while you use the smoke to teleport away....


The only one who knows its you who did this is the captain, because of the scry.

After a couple of days, burn his hands and face cut his tongue and take his eyes out and set him free.

He would only be able to hear the people running away from him screaming how the monster has came back until somebody beats him to death with him not being able to even explain that he didnt do anything of this....


And thats about the most evil and painfull i can think of making him suffer
but, im not Red Fel, so it might get even more nasty if Red Fel comes here so you can just ignore this and wait for Red Fel

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just how nasty do you want revenge to be?

Eternity of torture is a thing, after all.

[Ikitavi]

Given that you have a party member (the paladin) and the GM against you? Not much jumps to mind.

Unless, of course, you can frame the captain for a crime the paladin particularly despises. Or use ventriloquism to get the captain to command his henchman to bonk a customs inspector over the head.

Using disguise self as the captain and roam around slurring the reputation of other ships and captains could alienate him from his peers. There is always the steal cargo that is consigned for delivery on his ship, in a way that it appears he sold it to somebody else. That gives him the reputation of being greedy and/or a bad liar.

But a paladin who joins in on humiliating a teammate, and siding with someone who strikes them down in a negotiation? Sorry, but you are just using an NPC as a proxy for an unfixable situation.

[Strigon]

Keep in mind, people, that he doesn't want to harm the crew member who actually hit him. Which seems to imply to me he wouldn't want to harm the rest of the crew, or even his family.
Unless I'm mistaken, he wants revenge, but very specifically against the captain, and would like to keep everyone else out of it.

[atemu1234]

Well, there is the Eternity of Torment spell or whatever from BoVD...

[Red Fel]

Also....
Red Fel
Red Fel
Crimson Flail

More like Crimson Fail, am I right? Three times, it's not hard.


I said I'm not charismatic, and if we must summon him to this thread, you did it wrong.
Ahem.
Red Fel.
Red Fel.
Red Fel.

See? This one gets it. Ahem.

http://pa1.narvii.com/5732/3a9efcbf6ca14fb2e06cf8267d7ca6c257d21421_hq.gif
Sauce: Gankutsuou, an anime that's basically Count of Monte Cristo IN SPAAAAAAACE.
Hello, friend. Let me help you.


So my character needed to find transport to a dangerous island to do the quest. He arrives in the (foreign) city, he's a wealthy gentleman and dresses in the finest merchant silks etc. Clearly in the very upper echelon of society. He finds a captain. The captain is rude and laughs off my character's request.

*SNIP*

It's been a few days and my character has been pondering this insult. And this captain needs to be driven in to the ground. Some rude words, eh, whatever. But resorting to violence against a person of my character's evident status...well, he sealed his fate. But I (the player) am not sure how to go about this (I don't go about ruining people's lives). Your advice on ruining this NPC's existence is greatly appreciated!

First, for my own amusement, let me review some of the other suggestions.


My advice will be counter productive at first, so hear me out:

Make the Captain's life awesome.

*SNIP*

Piece by piece, break him down. Take away everything that he has accomplished and earned. Put him in a desperate situation...
Then step out of the shadows, and offer to help him. Your price?
The amount of silver you had to pay to him.

Sorely tempting. The irony is delicious. But the flaw is its impermanence. This is the revenge of a merciful man - a man who is willing to make this all go away if the captain would make things right.

Do not be that man.

Your revenge must be absolute. Cold, beautiful, and permanent. This captain should suffer an irreversible reversal of fortune, and only as he circles the abyss for the last time should he look up, see your face, and realize his folly. And after that moment, darkness takes him.

No backsies.


You're a man of class, and you don't want to get your hands dirty? Okay. Then take him down completely legally.

*SNIP*

Third, steal his crew. Find out what they want. Give it to them. Get them to find a new life, or turn them against him, or hire them yourself. And try and use your discrediting and defamation of him to discourage others from joining him. Leave him alone. Its hard to be a captain when you've got no one on your ship.

You could take it further... but you know, you're a man of class. Destroying his way of life and isolating him is probably enough to teach him a lesson.

Again, tempting. Fact is, if you take everything that was his and make it your own, you get what you wanted all along and then some - transport, yes, but also a crew and some great adventure hooks.

Trying to discredit him, though, is not always effective. Further, your crew was bought - they can be bought again from under you. Revenge is a truly selfless act - revenge that profits you will only lead to later betrayal. Your revenge cannot profit you; it should only punish your intended victim.


A character of mine did this not out of vengeance but simple evilness, but you could start by inviting the captain out for a drink… and once he's all liquored up, break out your "private stock" — a wine bottle of acid (1½ flasks of acid). :smallamused: You're an alchemist, you should be able to pull it off. Besides, while there may be a detect poison, there's no detect acid.

I suppose you could also challenge him to a fight to the pain… (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_keWS1i3RA)

Drinking acid is so passe. Although I do enjoy that particular scene. And that particular film. Nostalgia.


Set his boat on fire.

There's nothing an old sea-dog holds more dearly than his ship. Arrange things so that his ship is to transport a shipment of alchmist's fire. Sneak on board, rig a trap to the containers so that when it goes off, there's blazing alchemical fluids all over the interior of his cargo hold. The whole thing burns down to the water line and his career and livelihood are destroyed. That or try to arrange so the trap is sprung at sea so that he and his crew burn/drown to death. Watching them sail away with the knowledge that they're never coming back has a certain satisfaction.

And now you start to see the truth. This one hits closest to home. Unfortunately, it misses the mark by one small but important detail.

First, the pro: What is a sea captain? He is a monarch of the sea. (In some cases, a ruler of the Queen's Navy.) What is the sea? The sea is the ultimate freedom, the ultimate test of survival, the ultimate proof that a person is alive. No man is more free, more alive, than a sea captain. Which is why no man feels more dead inside than a sea captain to whom the sea is barred. Destroying his ship hurts his heart, kills him a little, but not entirely. Which is the goal.

Next, the con: Revenge requires that the victim is aware of your actions. Absolutely requires this. Your smug satisfaction that you've wrought ruination is not enough - your victim must realize the source of his misfortune, so that he realizes that his tragedy is the result of his wrongdoing. A fire at sea is a tragedy, but it is not unheard of - these things happen. There is no reason to assume that he will realize the source of the contraband on his ship.

So let's begin the plan, shall we? We know that the captain is a paragon of freedom. So what do all free men fear? They fear the yolk of servitude. Step one, then, is placing that burden firmly around the captain's neck.

This captain has refused to transport you. But you are undeterred. Approach him again, with the open hand of forgiveness. You wish him to ship some goods. You will pay him handsomely, of course. Acquire from him a bill of lading, indicating that he will take on the goods, as well as a warrantee of delivery, ensuring that the goods will arrive safely. Offer him a substantial sum for the shipment - a very substantial one - to ensure that he will accept these terms.

Here's the tricky part, and this next step depends on how lucky you feel. First, consider the most powerful bank in the world, or at least the continent. Think Iron Bank of Braavos, here. If you don't wish to risk your luck, use this powerful bank as the intermediary on the paperwork, with the ability to intervene on the insured debt. If you want to test your luck, after receiving the captain's signature on these documents, forge it on loan documents, with the ship as collateral. For bonus points, use the money you borrowed to pay the captain's generous shipping costs.

The goods being transported are sabotaged, but innocuously. The goal is for the ship to suffer when it's close to, but not in port of, its destination, so that the ship will go down, but the captain will make it safely ashore. This is vital - it is crucial that he survive.

At this moment, he is a man with no ship, no cargo, and crushing debt. Debt to you, because he insured your shipment. Debt to the bank, either because of their participation in the insurance contract, or because you forged his signature on loan documents.

In either event, the bank will provide. Due to his debt, he will be unable to procure financing for a new ship from anyone but the bank - they will own the ship, and he will owe them more. They will own him, as well - dictating what jobs he must take, in order to ensure profitability. He will work as hard as he ever has, but for someone else, and seeing only a fraction of the profit. The once proud monarch of the sea reduced to a mere dog of the waves.

And then, you approach, having paid the bank for his services, and ask him for transportation.

Revenge complete.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Now the question remains, Red Fel, what to do about the paladin that encourages this vile, unlawful, and immoral behavior?

Beyond making him fall, of course. That's a given. We need to make him fall of his own volition for something that is a complete waste, which does no good for anyone, though he need not know that at the time. It does, of course, need to be done in such a way that gray guard and blackguard are non-options. It also needs done such that he cannot show his face around any god or (un)holy man without being reminded of his humiliating failure.

However, I am at a loss at the moment how to go about doing this appropriately.

[AmberVael]

Revenge is a truly selfless act - revenge that profits you will only lead to later betrayal. Your revenge cannot profit you; it should only punish your intended victim.

Revenge is almost always a stupid act, as generally it leads to someone else wanting to take revenge on you. If you're going to do it, you probably should do your best to profit from it; if you're going to piss someone off you might as well gain from it. Better to not take revenge at all, is my thought. But if you must be petty, at least be smart about it and get some advantage from it. Making it into some kind of codified ideal is ridiculous.

[Red Fel]

Now the question remains, Red Fel, what to do about the paladin that encourages this vile, unlawful, and immoral behavior?

Beyond making him fall, of course. That's a given. We need to make him fall of his own volition for something that is a complete waste, which does no good for anyone, though he need not know that at the time. It does, of course, need to be done in such a way that gray guard and blackguard are non-options. It also needs done such that he cannot show his face around any god or (un)holy man without being reminded of his humiliating failure.

However, I am at a loss at the moment how to go about doing this appropriately.

Ooh, falling Paladins. This one takes me back to college. Let's see.

Well, a perfect revenge involves a perfect irony. What was the Paladin's specific action, here? His pacifism led to him wanting you to pay to placate a bully.

As such, there are two routes available to you. Route the first: Make the Paladin fall due to his failure to act, his pacifism. Route the second: Make the Paladin fall due to his actions in supporting the wrong side.

We're going to take both routes, because awesome.

Step one, be a naughty, nasty sort. Since we're having this discussion, I assume it's not going to be hard for you. Step two, make an enemy of another naughty, nasty sort. Again, shouldn't be hard.

Now, we've already established that, given the opportunity, the Paladin will take sides, and will do so against you. You want to encourage that. Because you want a specific thing in your enemy - a vile sort with a clean public face, who maintains his facade through good deeds. Your goal is to put your Paladin in a position where he either supports you, the perceived bully, by helping to shut down the nasty fellow - and thereby closing his public works, be they orphanages or hospitals - or he turns against you and does nothing. When he does, when he helps the bad guy, let him, so that the reveal of who he helped will be all the sweeter.

Because, whether he worked with you or against you, he worked to promote an Evil agenda. Even if your DM doesn't follow the "Don't associate with Evil characters" clause of the Paladin code, working to promote an Evil agenda is a definite no-no. This includes refusing to act in the face of apparent Evil, when it's bad enough.

It's a classic Xanatos gambit. Either he does what you want, and falls for engaging in acts of Evil, so you win; or he turns against you, and falls for offering aid to Evil, in which case he loses, so you still win.

And when he stands there in shock, his powers stripped from him, that other nasty fellow should have one of his minions pound him on the head for good measure. At which point you offer the promised fee to this other, nasty sort, and proceed to frame the now-fallen Paladin, either for the actions he legitimately took at your direction, or for the actions you are going to take anyway, because the nasty sort with whom you were working all along was planning to burn down his own orphanage anyway, for insurance reasons.


Revenge is almost always a stupid act, as generally it leads to someone else wanting to take revenge on you. If you're going to do it, you probably should do your best to profit from it; if you're going to piss someone off you might as well gain from it. Better to not take revenge at all, is my thought. But if you must be petty, at least be smart about it and get some advantage from it. Making it into some kind of codified ideal is ridiculous.

Oh, agree in part, disagree in part.

"Revenge, as they say, is a sucker's game." David Xanatos said this, and he was right. The other quote, about digging two graves, is equally applicable. Revenge will ultimately come back to bite you. Seeking to profit from it merely accelerates your comeuppance.

That said, if you have to get revenge, make it absolute. Make it so complete and utter that your satisfaction, while fleeting, will be all-encompassing. And you can't do that if you split your focus. If you are focusing on revenge and gain, you're missing the point. Focus on the goal - the total destruction of your enemy. Everything else is incidental and a distraction.

You will ultimately pay for your vengeance. Don't pretend that momentary profit changes that. So make sure your vengeance is worth it in terms of suffering, not gains.

[Segev]

Red Fel, my good and dear friend, I am disappointed in you. While absolutely, forging a man's signature on a loan to a bank is an adequate way to ruin him, should that loan never be repaid (and, if he knows not that he partook of it, nor has the money from it to invest, it would be tricky for him to repay it), it lacks that crucially LAWFUL part of the evil that loan sharks and mafiosos of the more successful bent understand: a sense of obligation.

Those who are extorted or defrauded, who did not make a choice nor a commitment, do not feel that the punishment that befalls them for failing to obey the extortionist or make good on the fraudulent debt is "real." It is an injustice, a clear falsehood, and it is easy to justify simply fleeing from it. To take the ship they obtain through their own fraud and run off, leaving the bank, perhaps, out the money they loaned and the value of the ship for the crime against the captain of attempting to extort value he never agreed to owe.

Loan sharks, mafiosos, and the like prey upon that sense of justice, rather than fighting it. Their victims agreed to the bargain, and knew (or at least suspected) the consequences. Even if they didn't think it through, it's all there, and the sense that it's their own choice, their own fault, seals them with guilt. Some, certainly, are Chaotic enough to run and hide or even tell themselves, "This is everybody's fault but my own," but most people are of the Lawful to Neutral bent, and thus will be more easily bound by the sense of obligation if they believe on some level that they agreed to owe this debt.


For that reason, I am surprised you would suggest a simple forgery. Getting the bank as the guarantor on the insurance is a good move; having the bank approach him about a debt he never took out? Not so much.

Unless the goal is simple ruination of reputation. If that's all you want, OP, forging his signature will work. He certainly will have to be on the run from the bank for the rest of his life. But he'll feel wronged, not like he brought this wrong on himself. There is a subtle but oft important difference in how one feels knowing that one was conned by somebody one has wronged, and knowing somebody was defrauded. The distinction here is fine, but the former involves knowing that you were complicit in your own destruction. That the same flaws which led you to sin against your vengeful "friend" have led to your downfall.

If your goal is making an example, even privately, of this man, then the LE approach, not my usual NE one (for which forging his signature would be fine!) is the better one.




But first...investigate to find out what his debts currently are. Perhaps you can simply buy those up, and have him become yours by virtue of you owning his debts.


Also, yes. See about hiring legal counsel and bringing charges for assault. You have your Paladin friend as a witness. A skilled lawyer should be able to make sure the Paladin's testimony supports your story (since, in fact, you are the wronged party). A wise tort lawyer will be absolutely, positively thrilled by the possibility of a case where the assault actually happened.

Oh, and bribe the city officials shamelessly, both with your own largesse by making friends with them and "sharing," and by introducing them to the concept of "civil forfeiture." Clearly, aside from the restitution for your pain and suffering (including a PUBLIC apology in the town square, which may be replaced by a public flogging if he does not agree to it), the punitive damages for banditry in port (which can doubtless be shown to fit a legal definition of piracy, if that helps) should go to the city and its officials, as "court fees."

It's amazing how efficient the legal system is about delivering justice when it profits the officers of the court.

[Red Fel]

Red Fel, my good and dear friend, I am disappointed in you. While absolutely, forging a man's signature on a loan to a bank is an adequate way to ruin him, should that loan never be repaid (and, if he knows not that he partook of it, nor has the money from it to invest, it would be tricky for him to repay it), it lacks that crucially LAWFUL part of the evil that loan sharks and mafiosos of the more successful bent understand: a sense of obligation.

Those who are extorted or defrauded, who did not make a choice nor a commitment, do not feel that the punishment that befalls them for failing to obey the extortionist or make good on the fraudulent debt is "real." It is an injustice, a clear falsehood, and it is easy to justify simply fleeing from it. To take the ship they obtain through their own fraud and run off, leaving the bank, perhaps, out the money they loaned and the value of the ship for the crime against the captain of attempting to extort value he never agreed to owe.

Loan sharks, mafiosos, and the like prey upon that sense of justice, rather than fighting it. Their victims agreed to the bargain, and knew (or at least suspected) the consequences. Even if they didn't think it through, it's all there, and the sense that it's their own choice, their own fault, seals them with guilt. Some, certainly, are Chaotic enough to run and hide or even tell themselves, "This is everybody's fault but my own," but most people are of the Lawful to Neutral bent, and thus will be more easily bound by the sense of obligation if they believe on some level that they agreed to owe this debt.

For that reason, I am surprised you would suggest a simple forgery. Getting the bank as the guarantor on the insurance is a good move; having the bank approach him about a debt he never took out? Not so much.

You're not wrong, Segev, which is why I offered it as one alternative. Part of the problem, however, was in two intrinsic assumptions I made.

First, I assumed that this captain was otherwise squeaky clean. Certainly, if he was in debt, or in violation of law, it would be easier to control him.

Second, I assumed that it would be unwise to assume direct control of the victim's debts. As you point out, his sense of obligation on those debts is the key thing; if you appeared one week later, grinning and holding paperwork indicating that you now owned his debts, he would be unlikely to just shrug and treat it the same; he would rebel. And unlike, say, loan sharks or a powerful bank, your means of exercising control are limited. There's nothing stopping him from agreeing to transport you, and then killing you in the middle of the sea and declaring the debt resolved.

And that's the point. Buying up his existing debts is easy. Suing him for assault is easy. But these things merely give him a personal debt to you, and one he will endeavor not to repay. Your control over him would be little more than a legal fiction.

Better not to take that control, yourself, at all.

Now, one option that you could consider would be to buy up or sue for that debt, and then promptly sell it to the aforementioned bank. Or better, to a government - suddenly, the free trader becomes a servant of the flag. You show him that you hold the leash, and just as he smirks with hope that he can break free of you, you reveal that you've given the leash to someone bigger, stronger, and less forgiving. And then you walk away, and take your business elsewhere.

In this scenario, that final act - simply walking away - reveals that, now that you've broken him, he is insignificant to you. Having gone to all that effort, you show him how little he actually matters. Insult to injury.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You'd be best off selling his debt to an extremely cruel LE government, one that has no stake in pursuing his interests or making his life better -- just the opposite, in fact. You want to sell it to a government who will use it to break him, and that has the magical wherewithal to force him into paying his debts. If he doesn't, the OP should start making contacts with inevitables involved in debtors and contract breakers.


In this scenario, that final act - simply walking away - reveals that, now that you've broken him, he is insignificant to you. Having gone to all that effort, you show him how little he actually matters. Insult to injury.Beyond that, you show him that there's not a damned thing he can do about it, because it's already ironclad.

[khadgar567]

You'd be best off selling his debt to an extremely cruel LE government, one that has no stake in pursuing his interests or making his life better -- just the opposite, in fact. You want to sell it to a government who will use it to break him, and that has the magical wherewithawal to force him into paying his debts. If he doesn't, the OP should start making contacts with inevitables involved in debtors and contract breakers.

Beyond that, you show him that there's not a damned thing he can do about it, because it's already ironclad.

and insert evil laugh real honest evil laugh worth asmodeus because he is screwed on every sense of the word

[Segev]

In this scenario, that final act - simply walking away - reveals that, now that you've broken him, he is insignificant to you. Having gone to all that effort, you show him how little he actually matters. Insult to injury.

Ah, and there is where you once again prove that you're not just a villain; you're a supervillain.

PRESENTATION!

[Flickerdart]

In this scenario, that final act - simply walking away - reveals that, now that you've broken him, he is insignificant to you. Having gone to all that effort, you show him how little he actually matters. Insult to injury.

Years later, he discovers that you've secretly tattooed your family crest on his butt.

[GreyBlack]

You're not wrong, Segev, which is why I offered it as one alternative. Part of the problem, however, was in two intrinsic assumptions I made.

First, I assumed that this captain was otherwise squeaky clean. Certainly, if he was in debt, or in violation of law, it would be easier to control him.

Second, I assumed that it would be unwise to assume direct control of the victim's debts. As you point out, his sense of obligation on those debts is the key thing; if you appeared one week later, grinning and holding paperwork indicating that you now owned his debts, he would be unlikely to just shrug and treat it the same; he would rebel. And unlike, say, loan sharks or a powerful bank, your means of exercising control are limited. There's nothing stopping him from agreeing to transport you, and then killing you in the middle of the sea and declaring the debt resolved.

And that's the point. Buying up his existing debts is easy. Suing him for assault is easy. But these things merely give him a personal debt to you, and one he will endeavor not to repay. Your control over him would be little more than a legal fiction.

Better not to take that control, yourself, at all.

Now, one option that you could consider would be to buy up or sue for that debt, and then promptly sell it to the aforementioned bank. Or better, to a government - suddenly, the free trader becomes a servant of the flag. You show him that you hold the leash, and just as he smirks with hope that he can break free of you, you reveal that you've given the leash to someone bigger, stronger, and less forgiving. And then you walk away, and take your business elsewhere.

In this scenario, that final act - simply walking away - reveals that, now that you've broken him, he is insignificant to you. Having gone to all that effort, you show him how little he actually matters. Insult to injury.

Just as a question, but why not assume pseudo-direct control of the captain's debts? Set up a company (which you merely head) to buy up risky ventures and sell stock to outside citizens. This makes you a profitable side-venture in overseas shipping while, additionally, pressing the captain further into your debt. Venture capitalism was a thing during the early Renaissance/late Medieval period, so this control isn't too hard a thing to set up. And, the added benefit here is that the captain isn't, technically, indebted to you but to your corporation. From there, you can shackle him further by tying him up with red tape and further hampering his successes until he inevitably fails.

Then, right before he does, you give yourself a large bonus, step down as CEO, and name the Paladin as the new CEO.

[khadgar567]

guys who wants popcorn and maybe some whine while we see how this poor smuck gone suffer

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmm. OP, is there a lichocracy in your world? You know, a LE government headed by an incredibly powerful lich? You may want to think about selling the debt to it, assuming you don't do the corporation thing.

Liches aren't people you want to renege on your debts with, especially ones who just so happen to receive your used hairbrush and several other personal effects of yours when they buy your debts.

Protip: Lots of spells are easier to perform on someone when you have parts of them (such as stray hairs, nail clippings, and blood), or when you have some of their personal effects. Attaining some of these things may be of assistance in the future. Keep some of them for the inevitable inevitables.

[edit] Who knows? When he can't afford the backbreaking payments required by the government, the lich might just take his soul and turn him into an undead abomination (say, a necropolitan) forced to work until he can pay off the debts. And since the debt payments are overshadowed by the interest on the aforementioned debts, that might take awhile. Giving the officer of the lichocracy that purchases the debt a note to this effect can increase the chances of it actually happening.

[double-edit] Is there some way to get all three of the Lawful alignment outsiders on his case? Inevitables are easy. Devils might be, too, depending on how you go about it. Celestials may be a bit more difficult, as they'd be liable to try to save him from the other factions, only to enforce their own rules on him. Or they'd just kill him, depending on just how capital-E Evil he is.

[ATHATH]

How badly do you want to break him?

You'll need a lot of scrolls for this plan, but I'm sure that you can afford them (the Thayan Slaver has Dominate Person at a lower level than usual, I think). Having a way to ensure that people don't know that you tried to poke around inside their heads when they succeed on a Will save is also recommended. Finally, you'll need to beg your DM for access to the spell Forbidden Speech.

Use Dominate Person (and Morality Undone, if necessary) on the captain. Ensure that it's the kind of Domination where he can see what's happening. Torture him with spells like Power Word Pain and Wrack. Afterwards, proceed to use his body to commit heinous crimes, such as brutally murdering his family (make him make them unressurectable (or sell their souls to a fiend) too), assembling their corpses into a bicycle, and riding around on it while stabbing old ladies with a lance made from their bones while chugging a bottle of unicorn tears. Ensure that you've cast Forbidden Speech on him a few times to make him unable to tell anyone that he didn't do those crimes of his own free will, unable to tell anyone that you were involved, and unable to relate the details of the event that happens in the next two paragraphs of this plan.

Eventually, the Paladin (and him alone; ensure that the other party members are doing something else far away) will come to stop him. That's when you turn the Paladin to stone and start chopping off the captain's limbs. Sterilize him with acid and gouge his eyes too, for good measure. Put the bloody sword and the empty acid flask in the Paladin's hands, and unfreeze him. Cast Modify Memory on him to make him think that he amputated the captain of his own free will. This should horrify him.

Have a fiend (that you bound earlier; choose one that doesn't look like a fiend if you can) approach the Paladin (who now believes that he has fallen) and offer to undo what he (the Paladin) has just done and make things right again. If the Paladin refuses, use Insidious Suggestion on him to make him agree. Step out from the shadows, and reveal what has just happened, before or after casting Forbidden Speech on him twice to make him unable to tell anyone else what you just told him and to be unable to atone. Have the fiend (so that they won't target you more often later) cast Insanity on the Paladin and the captain. Have the guard captain (who you bribed/blackmailed (and cast Forbidden Speech on to prevent him from telling other people about the bribe) to wait until now to barge in) run in with a squad of guards, and arrest the Paladin and the ship captain.

Use Mass Charm Person on the juries of their trials, and make them give the Paladin and the ship captain life sentences in terrible prisons. Later, "discover" a secret alchemy lab under the house of someone that you don't like, and claim that it was making special "poisons" that rendered the Paladin and the ship captain permanently and "incurably" insane. Alas, not even a Neutralize Poison spell can save them now, as the "poison" has already run its course.

Use the reward money to buy a custom item of 2/day Sending, so you can remind the Paladin and the ship captain why they suck every day.

[Segev]

I don't think he wants to ruin the paladin; maybe get back at him a little, but nothing party-breaking. Unless I'm misreading the OP's intent.

[ATHATH]

I don't think he wants to ruin the paladin; maybe get back at him a little, but nothing party-breaking. Unless I'm misreading the OP's intent.
In that case, he can just leave that part out.

[ATHATH]

Addition: Cut open the captain and insert a talisman deep inside of him. Cast Arcane Mark on the talisman. When he eventually dies, find his corpse via Detect Magic, and cast Soul Shackles on him. Sell the talisman to a fiend.

[Hamste]

The number of magic auras and more importantly saves for that plan to work is way too high for that to really be a reasonable plan on a paladin. You need him to fail at least 5 saves several of which he is trying to kill you while you do it. What is more if there is even a moderate amount of magic in a setting dispelling should be a common procedure as well a detect magic to keep casters from glibness and magic auraing their way into freedom.

[ATHATH]

The number of magic auras and more importantly saves for that plan to work is way too high for that to really be a reasonable plan on a paladin. You need him to fail at least 5 saves several of which he is trying to kill you while you do it. What is more if there is even a moderate amount of magic in a setting dispelling should be a common procedure as well a detect magic to keep casters from glibness and magic auraing their way into freedom.
The OP said the world was low magic.

Hire a Hexblade/Blackguard Pixie or something to debuff the saves of your targets. Use a Save or Lose spell on the Paladin to restrain him while you work your magic.

Plus, if you can get your DM on board, some of the save rolls might be... unluckier than usual.

[Hamste]

The OP said the world was low magic.

Hire a Hexblade/Blackguard Pixie or something to debuff the saves of your targets. Use a Save or Lose spell on the Paladin to restrain him while you work your magic.

Plus, if you can get your DM on board, some of the save rolls might be... unluckier than usual.

...is low magic so your plan is to throw around 5th level spells like they are nothing? He is a PF alchemist so all if these spells had to be from scrolls or bought.

[Deophaun]

And I want it to be much more painful than a curse. He can just blame his problems on the curse then.
Unless the curse afflicts him with thalassophobia. Nothing worse than turning a great love into a great fear.

[johnbragg]

The OP said the world was low magic.

Hire a Hexblade/Blackguard Pixie or something

It's fun when words mean things.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unless the curse afflicts him with thalassophobia. Nothing worse than turning a great love into a great fear.With a second curse preventing him allowing someone to remove any curses on his person or communicating about curses on him in any way.

[ace rooster]

I would go with a curse that gives a penalty to profession sailor. Start at 1, and increase once a week till it caps out at whatever the DM says it does. His ruin would come slowly, and be all his own doing. There would be no injustice in his fall, and no one to blame but himself.

Quick, simple, effective. Revenge should never take effort.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I would go with a curse that gives a penalty to profession sailor. Start at 1, and increase once a week till it caps out at whatever the DM says it does. His ruin would come slowly, and be all his own doing. There would be no injustice in his fall, and no one to blame but himself.

Quick, simple, effective. Revenge should never take effort.He can still captain a ship by ordering others to do it, though.

[Keltest]

He can still captain a ship by ordering others to do it, though.

Up until he becomes clueless about how a ship needs to be run. He would be a glorified passenger at that point, because all he can do is pick a direction or destination and hope his crew doesn't need any orders.

[illyahr]

An idea from your Bard that is simple and ironic: enchant the figurehead on his ship to declare to all listeners that he's a fraud and crook, whether he is or not, and spout off a series of misdeeds. Captain has to remove the enchantment and clear his reputation and the paladin has to find out if he helped a crook or not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

From another thread springs an obvious idea. Come to him in his sleep and spread an oil of bestow greater curse on some part of him. Hit him with the bog-standard 25% chance to act option and a break condition being for him to make reparations to you in some sum equal to thrice the sum of the cost of the oil and what he extorted from you.

The beauty of this is that he need not know that curse breaking condition, that you did this to him, and nothing less than wish or miracle can break it outside of the stated break condition. In a low-magic setting, this is essentially crippling him for life or until he somehow comes to find the break condition and brings you a fist full of silver, wherever you happen to be in the world. Most would just assume he's had some sort of stroke.

There is a small problem though. Bestow greater curse only appears on one list at 3rd level; the demonologist. Finding one that knows how to craft potions and is willing to deal without extorting a disproportionate, and not necessarily monetary, price. An 8th or 9th level master alchemist isn't something you're likely to find, unfortunately, and that potion would be drastically more expensive anyway.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

From another thread springs an obvious idea. Come to him in his sleep and spread an oil of bestow greater curse on some part of him. Hit him with the bog-standard 25% chance to act option and a break condition being for him to make reparations to you in some sum equal to thrice the sum of the cost of the oil and what he extorted from you.

The beauty of this is that he need not know that curse breaking condition, that you did this to him, and nothing less than wish or miracle can break it outside of the stated break condition. In a low-magic setting, this is essentially crippling him for life or until he somehow comes to find the break condition and brings you a fist full of silver, wherever you happen to be in the world. Most would just assume he's had some sort of stroke.

There is a small problem though. Bestow greater curse only appears on one list at 3rd level; the demonologist. Finding one that knows how to craft potions and is willing to deal without extorting a disproportionate, and not necessarily monetary, price. An 8th or 9th level master alchemist isn't something you're likely to find, unfortunately, and that potion would be drastically more expensive anyway.If you go in for one, try going for several, some of which can be used at a later time.

Think of several humiliating conditions GBC can inflict on him, such as a horrible "disease" that starts out with a really nasty, widespread rash, impotence, and 1d6 points of (non-stacking) Charisma damage per day, and ends with his bits falling off if he doesn't fulfill the stated conditions within, say, three months. The end result of that curse prevents any sort of regeneration until the curse is removed. And since it's a curse, not a disease, nobody can identify or cure it with the Heal skill or remove disease.

Also, anybody with GBC on their class list can cast it from a demonologist scroll, which should be much easier to find than an oil, though you'll need to actually cast it from the scroll -- which means you need to fulfill the verbal components, which makes it harder to hit him unawares.

[ATHATH]

...is low magic so your plan is to throw around 5th level spells like they are nothing? He is a PF alchemist so all if these spells had to be from scrolls or bought.
Touché.

I thought that low magic meant that there would be the occasional old hermit in the woods that would practice magic, but it wouldn't be integrated into the legal system yet.

Do remember that the captain only needs to fail the save for the initial Domination, because you can command him to fail the saves of the other spells that you cast on him.

Simplification of the Plan:
1. Dominate the captain.
2. Make him do bad stuff.
3a. Make him unable to tell anyone else that he didn't do the bad stuff of his own free will, or that you were involved.
3b. Alternatively, make him THINK he did the bad stuff of his own free will (*cough* Modify Memory *cough).
4. Bribe/blackmail/impersonate the government officials that check him for magical effects.
5. Bribe/blackmail/replace/cast Mass Suggestion on the jury to give the captain a really harsh sentence.
6. Keep this hidden from the Paladin.
7. Make the Paladin fall (optional).
8. Laugh Evily (not optional).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Tell the captain the story of Odysseus and the sirens - how he had himself tied to the mast of his ship, to be able to hear the most beautiful song in the world, while his crew stoppered their ears with wax, so as not to be tempted.

Drink the crew into a stupor (magic works here, even just alter self into a dwarf, which doubles as disguise). Sneak aboard the ship, and sail out with just the captain. You may need to use a few unseen servants to take care of the rigging.

Tie the captain to the mast of his ship, and equip him with a ring of sustenance. Then crash the ship within hearing distance of a bunch of sirens. Fly away on the back of a giant albatross.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you go in for one, try going for several, some of which can be used at a later time.

Think of several humiliating conditions GBC can inflict on him, such as a horrible "disease" that starts out with a really nasty, widespread rash, impotence, and 1d6 points of (non-stacking) Charisma damage per day, and ends with his bits falling off if he doesn't fulfill the stated conditions within, say, three months. The end result of that curse prevents any sort of regeneration until the curse is removed. And since it's a curse, not a disease, nobody can identify or cure it with the Heal skill or remove disease.

Also, anybody with GBC on their class list can cast it from a demonologist scroll, which should be much easier to find than an oil, though you'll need to actually cast it from the scroll -- which means you need to fulfill the verbal components, which makes it harder to hit him unawares.

Those are 750gp a pop. It gets expensive quick if you start stacking them, at least at lower levels. Honestly, if he's stuck with an average 18 second interval between actions and can only move at 1/4 speed on average, his life is over. He's permanently and irreversibly crippled until he coughs up over 45 pounds of gold to some random stranger that he doesn't necessarily even remember. Anything beyond this is excessive and not worth the expense.

[johnbragg]

Ok, start with Bestow Curse until he delivers you to Wherever. Stack that with a lesser geas to prevent anyone from removing the curse.

Can bestow curse cover "make a Will save or grapple who asks to hire his ship"? I'd say that's a reasonable curse.

EDIT: Gonna leave this here. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234986-Bestow-Curse-Alternative-curse-ideas-3-5e

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ok, start with Bestow Curse until he delivers you to Wherever.
How about a lesser geas to find wherever?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a lesser geas to find wherever?Lesser geas is much, much, much, much nastier than geas/quest; it's too bad it's useless any time past level 7 (unless you abuse un/holy arrow negative levels, that is).

[Coidzor]

Tell the captain the story of Odysseus and the sirens - how he had himself tied to the mast of his ship, to be able to hear the most beautiful song in the world, while his crew stoppered their ears with wax, so as not to be tempted.

Drink the crew into a stupor (magic works here, even just alter self into a dwarf, which doubles as disguise). Sneak aboard the ship, and sail out with just the captain. You may need to use a few unseen servants to take care of the rigging.

Tie the captain to the mast of his ship, and equip him with a ring of sustenance. Then crash the ship within hearing distance of a bunch of sirens. Fly away on the back of a giant albatross.

Do Sirens even do that in Pathfinder or 3.5?

[Deophaun]

Do Sirens even do that in Pathfinder or 3.5?
Yes, although 3.5 confuses harpies for them for some reason.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Do Sirens even do that in Pathfinder or 3.5?
For the purposes of revenge, it's sufficient that they eat his liver, which, if you provide a ring of regeneration, happens every day.

[khadgar567]

For the purposes of revenge, it's sufficient that they eat his liver, which, if you provide a ring of regeneration, happens every day.

Just for kicks use with red fells plan abandon all hope you anger thei

[Segev]

Lesser geas is much, much, much, much nastier than geas/quest; it's too bad it's useless any time past level 7 (unless you abuse un/holy arrow negative levels, that is).

While it's nastier, it's not actually more effective. Both spells do actually compel the victim to make his best effort towards completing the quest assigned. The "bad stuff" punishments only occur if he is prevented from acting towards it. As long as he is free to try, he is compelled to try. The punishment is there to ensure that he can't even seek respite by having somebody lock him up to keep him from trying without suffering for it. Or, since high-end magics are around, pulling something cheesy like having the party wizard dominate him into acting just like he would if he weren't under a geas.

In short: both spells force somebody to do his best to complete the assigned task. As long as he is not prevented from working towards it, he will. Period.

[antoin]

While there have been many fantastic responses to this (and thanks you all for your delightfully Evil ideas, there are too many to quote), I should clarify a few things about the campaign world that will help with solutions I can use.

1.) The world is low magic. Hard. As in, spells above 4th-level don't exist. As in, any magic item that's not a potion or scroll is basically an artifact. As in, there's next to no extraplanar communication or undead or lichery or anything of the sort.

2.) While my character carries himself as "a man of wealth and taste" :smallwink:...unless this dungeon we're in turns up a lot more wealth, I will not have tons of gold on hand (I spent it all). Definitely not on the order of buying companies, ships, etc.

3.) My character isn't a villian...exactly. He has his Good days when he's adopting smart-ish peasant children and freely teaching them alchemy...and he has his Evil days, like the thoughts running through his mind as he reads this thread. He does have his standards - killing innocents is bad, enslaving people is generally bad (although this captain might be the exception). Killing his family to hurt him? Nope. Somehow making his wife and children hate him and leave him? Oh yes. Keeping everyone alive, particularly him to see what he has wrought, is perfect. Oddly enough, although my character despises physical torture, he has no such qualms about the psychological.

4.) I'd really like to avoid Paladin retribution, as much as my character by myself might be tempted by that, because my group claims it doesn't like characters butting heads.

5.) While soul-enslaving on the Prime might be out of the question (due to a lack of liches and powerful magic)...what about his afterlife? Any good ways to ensure his misery continues?

[Troacctid]

5.) While soul-enslaving on the Prime might be out of the question (due to a lack of liches and powerful magic)...what about his afterlife? Any good ways to ensure his misery continues?

Convince him to make a Faustian Pact? Doing so will grant him a benefit while he lives (such as XP, wealth, or a bonus feat—see Fiendish Codex II), but condemn his soul to the Nine Hells when he dies.

[Red Fel]

5.) While soul-enslaving on the Prime might be out of the question (due to a lack of liches and powerful magic)...what about his afterlife? Any good ways to ensure his misery continues?


Convince him to make a Faustian Pact? Doing so will grant him a benefit while he lives (such as XP, wealth, or a bonus feat—see Fiendish Codex II), but condemn his soul to the Nine Hells when he dies.

This is an option, but frankly, Devils don't need your help. They can tempt just fine on their own. And contacting one with a promising lead might earn you some kudos, but really the last thing you want to do is have the Lower Planes notice you. Siccing them on your enemy also puts you on your radar.

That said, the simplest methods work best. Earlier we were talking about putting him into debt, then buying and selling said debt. A straightforward option, then, is selling that debt to either a Devil or a Necromancer.

If the former, they will find ways to draw it out to the point that he will be repaying it eternally, posthumously. And because you're merely engaging in a straightforward business deal - selling a debt - as opposed to an elaborate ruse - tricking the guy into a Pact Certain - you're less likely to get onto the Lower Planes' "approved client list." The more casual and brief your contact with them is, the better off you'll be. Trust me.

If the latter, "you will be paying this debt until the day you die" takes on a different tone if the victim can be raised as an intelligent undead, fully aware of his plight, and compelled to continue to work off his debt.

Gives new meaning to the term "ghost ship." Teehee, I'm witty!

[Strigon]

If the latter, "you will be paying this debt until the day you die" takes on a different tone if the victim can be raised as an intelligent undead, fully aware of his plight, and compelled to continue to work off his debt.

Gives new meaning to the term "ghost ship." Teehee, I'm witty!

Isn't that basically the plot for... just about every Pirates of the Caribbean movie?

[Red Fel]

Isn't that basically the plot for... just about every Pirates of the Caribbean movie?

Nah, those were more along the lines of "For your crime, you are cursed with life eternal until you make amends."

This is more along the lines of, "Oh, sure, thought you could get out of paying me by dying, did you? Get up, break time's over. And the cost of bringing you back is going onto your tab! Now get back to work! And I don't need to hear any 'I'm tired' or 'I'm hungry' nonsense - we both know those days are over. Ha!"

[ATHATH]

@Antoin: So you'd be fine with just making his wife divorce him? Why didn't you just say so?

Wait until just after the captain has a fight with his girlfriend or wife (which might be instigated by you, if you're impatient) and cast Insidious Suggestion on her to make her break up and/or divorce her husband and leave (with her children and valuables, if she has any). Use Insidious Suggestion on her to make her decide to come work for you, and leave with her.

[Coidzor]

Then it's time to start building up an organization using the Downtime system if you need a slush fund for non-adventuring purposes and barristers and the like to help you with corporate takeovers

[Radimus]

So my character needed to find transport to a dangerous island to do the quest. He arrives in the (foreign) city, he's a wealthy gentleman and dresses in the finest merchant silks etc. Clearly in the very upper echelon of society. He finds a captain. The captain is rude and laughs off my character's request.

"No matter, I guess we'll find a captain skilled enough to take us there," my character says, hoping his very evident pride (and the promise of money with someone of my character's stature and evident wealth) will get him to rethink his choice and give us a ride. My character begins walking away. Then he gets all mad, and has one of his henchmen strike me on the head with a club. Under orders from this captain. The henchman was just following orders and didn't know better. It's not his fault. My character is smart, he understands this.

But the captain.

This man needs to learn his place. Hard. The worst part? He demanded payment after our paladin broke up this scuffle, and the paladin insisted I give it to him to avoid further problems. The captain attempted to insult my character's mathematical skills, and after being corrected, was given his petty silver.

This man needs to learn his place.

It's been a few days and my character has been pondering this insult. And this captain needs to be driven in to the ground. Some rude words, eh, whatever. But resorting to violence against a person of my character's evident status...well, he sealed his fate. But I (the player) am not sure how to go about this (I don't go about ruining people's lives). Your advice on ruining this NPC's existence is greatly appreciated!

Evil is a very delicate thing to enact. Especially when it requires you throwing away the fun everyone at the table wishes to have, and dragging them on your side quest. For this reason, I often employ the wisdom of Kaervak when I contemplate how terribly an NPC has grieved me:


If it is weak, either kill it or ignore it. Anything else honors it.

Things to consider:
1). The fun your group is having
2). How capable is the captain?
3). How much time are you willing to waste on this?
4). What are you capable of?
5). Ideas

1). What is the rest of the group doing while you are at the table contemplating this? MAYBE you can twist the paladin's arm into joining you. He did after all stand by and witness Assault AND battery, and extortion. After standing by, he sided with the wrongdoer. This is a sticking point. Any argument which justifies one, does not justify the other. Maybe "You owe me works."

What about the rest of the party? Try to create a plan which they can get in on. You are a band of traveling adventurers. Don't you stick up for each other? Do you allow each other to be physically accosted and go un-vendicated? If so, I believe you have bigger problems than a sassy sailor.

2). How capable do you take this captain for? How much of a fight can he put up? What are the odds he has a few class levels, or even access to magic? Maybe his voyages are successful because of his use of magic. If that is the case, taking a few key digits would do the trick. He won't ever see regeneration.

3). Additionally, is the suffering of his life worth the rest of yours? Many of the suggestions here would assume so. Never forget, that you have a life still worth living. Your revenge should reflect that.

4). Many of the posts assume you have available resources. You later informed us that you are low on funding. The more accurate a picture you paint for us, the more twisted we can warp the future.

5). Ideas

5.1). Segev's suggestion of greasing the legal tracks, while setting this guy on a train ride he won't return from, is possibly my favorite.

An alternate suggestion is one which doesn't include the captain at all. Consider:
5.2). This Captain turned down business for him and his entire crew. Rather he started a simple scuffle which he turned in his favor for 1 silver. That's it.

He turned down your business (presumably for several gold coins) for a single silver. Now if I was a member of that crew, and I found out that my captain turned down extra GOLD for a silver coin, my loyalty would start to wane. He may be the best captain in the world, but if you've damage his leadership score enough, he can't be a captain. He's a commoner who specialized in a skill he can't exercise.

5.3). Drugs can ruin a life, and you don't even need to be there. Use formula: Imbue with Addiction

5.4). If you decided you wanted to run around one night and pretend to be the captain, you could easily handle the disguise.
Vocal Alteration
Disguise Self
Negate Aroma
Illusion of Calm

Finally: Lesson learned, always have one gold coin and Fool's Gold on standby.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take either the Lucid Dreaming feat or ranks in the Lucid Dreaming skill. Plague him with nightmares for the rest of his life.

Even better, either convince someone else with access to Lucid Dreaming that the bastard wronged him, so he should be tortured nightly in turn, or set up a Xanatos gambit that pushes the bastard into wronging said "someone else." That way, you won't lose any sleep over it, and someone else enacts your revenge for you.

[Alex12]

Take either the Lucid Dreaming feat or ranks in the Lucid Dreaming skill. Plague him with nightmares for the rest of his life.

Even better, either convince someone else with access to Lucid Dreaming that the bastard wronged him, so he should be tortured nightly in turn, or set up a Xanatos gambit that pushes the bastard into wronging said "someone else." That way, you won't lose any sleep over it, and someone else enacts your revenge for you.

Oh gods, what if something like this just happened?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh gods, what if something like this just happened?What if it's just a chain of revenge attempts, where each link keeps enabling future links so that the bastard captain keeps screwing people over who just pass on the buck to others?

[Segev]

I should note that a Xanatos Gambit is not just any clever, machiavellian ploy. It has a very specific meaning. A Xanatos Gambit requires that you set it up so that there are only two possibilities: success of the obvious plan, and failure of the obvious plan. What makes it a Xanatos Gambit is that the failure of the plan leads to you getting what you want anyway, whether it's a second, separate thing, or the same thing by another means.

For instance, you have a new magical superweapon that you want to sell to the kingdom for a high price, but the court wizards are pooh-poohing it, and the annoying bureaucrats are forbidding you to sell it to anybody else because it MIGHT be as good as you say (even though the kingdom won't buy it). So you sell it on the black market, arranging with a mercenary group that pays top dollar to give them all your plans for security at a public demo of the magical doohicky; they are to take possession of it by staging a robbery. You also have hired some heroes you KNOW have a tendency to foil the best-laid plans. You did inform the mercs of their presence, but you know that doesn't guarantee that the robbery will go as planned.

There are now several possible outcomes:

1) The robbery goes as planned.
This version gets you paid for your item by the mercs
It embarrasses the heroes with their failure, and they're now in your debt for having failed to protect your item
It means the kingdom will either buy your weapon out of fear of it being used against them, or they'll have it used against them until they can't deny its effectiveness and demand to buy it

2) The heroes thwart the robbery.
This version, you decide whether to return the mercs' money based on how much you worry about their retaliation now that the heroes have beaten them up (base it on how badly they lost).
You have proof that other forces value your weapon, so the wizard council is perhaps being disingenuous. Better sales position.
You have publicly worked with the heroes, and you can even gift them a copy of the weapon (it's not a sale, and they clearly are heroes of the hour, so you're not aiding enemies of the state); when they use it, they legitimize you and demonstrate its power.


In a more advanced mercantile civilization, you can even insure the item in question; make sure at least one of them "breaks" if they're not stolen, and you get paid by the mercs under the table AND by the insurance company for totally legit cause.

For a piece de resistance, you can try to make sure the merc company involved is a rival of the heroes you hire for security, and then blatantly advertise the heroes as your security force lynchpin; this will place the blame for the attack on the heroes' presence.



THAT is a Xanatos Gambit: even if you "lose," you win.


Now, if we can help our OP arrange such a thing against the Captain, that'd be IDEAL.

[Quiver]

Sometimes, I think role-playing games were invented to keep sociopaths away from decent, law-abiding society.

This thread confirms this thinking.

I love it.

[Segev]

Sometimes, I think role-playing games were invented to keep sociopaths away from decent, law-abiding society.

This thread confirms this thinking.

I love it.

RP has the lovely benefit of letting us play out all of our horrifically villainous plots on things which won't actually suffer: NPCs and other fictional creatures.

I think some of the best authors who write truly awesome villains are similar.

[TheBrassDuke]

Sometimes, I think role-playing games were invented to keep sociopaths away from decent, law-abiding society.

This thread confirms this thinking.

I love it.


RP has the lovely benefit of letting us play out all of our horrifically villainous plots on things which won't actually suffer: NPCs and other fictional creatures.

I think some of the best authors who write truly awesome villains are similar.

I enjoy the fact this is all for one insignificant NPC, who just so happened to be a jack*** the PC wishes to get back at. This is very good. I just wonder how the othe players and your DM feel about it.

Kudos for obsessing over one NPC and fleshing out your character, though.

Personally, my revenge wouldn't be so dramatic, unfortunately. There was an instance when an NPC got fresh and pushed one of my buttons. I overpowered him one on one and strapped him with a pair of shackles. He became a prisoner, and while my party didn't fully agree with my actions, they weren't about to argue with the party wizard.

That campaign is lost in time...I think the last time I remember him traveling with us, he was being lowered by the chains of his manacles into a hole--to scout for displacer beasts.