Treading into dangerous territory: Giving monsters Class Levels

[supergoji18]

I'm actually somewhat terrified by what the answer may be but...

Looking through the Monster Manual, I began to question why certain types of creatures don't get access to genuine class levels (or at the very least are treated as being a certain class level). Specifically, I am talking about the Dragons, the Pit Fiend and the Balor. Each of these monsters are, at least in the fluff, capable of bestowing upon mortals great power in some way. Dragons can give birth to mortals that possess draconic blood, and they can become powerful sorcerers from this. Pit Fiends and Balors can make pacts with mortals, turning them into Warlocks.

Despite these beings being the potential source of some player characters' powers, the creatures themselves do not possess the abilities of said characters. Even the mightiest dragon doesn't have a sliver of sorcerer power within it. While there is a spell-casting variant for dragons, it is very limited compared to full spellcasting. I find it strange that the source of most sorcerers' powers do not possess the powers of sorcerers themselves.

Pit Fiends and Balors are a bit trickier. Depending on the player and/or DM interpretation, the pact between Fiend and Warlock is either one akin to a cleric, where the warlock draws the power from the fiend, or a master and an apprentice, where the fiend is teaching the warlock dark secrets which it can then use. Either way, It seems odd to me that these beings can somehow grant mortals these abilities without actually possessing them for themselves. If they are drawing the power from the fiends, how would they be able to use it if the fiends don't have those capabilities (example: warlocks can use True Polymorph, but neither fiend can. They can use Eldritch Blast, yet neither fiend can. They can use disguise self, yet neither fiend can). If it is a master/apprentice relationship, how can the fiend teach their warlock something they don't know or can't demonstrate the use of? It would be like a teacher trying to teach calculus even though they've never taken a course in the subject. If they don't have the capabilities, how can they impart these capabilities onto others.

Being the evil person I am when it comes to DMing and encounters, I decided to attempt to rectify this by giving each creature levels in their respective classes. I was going to give Dragons levels in sorcerer (the exact amount dependent on their age and type) and Pit Fiend and Balors access to 20th level Warlock capabilities. This would not only fix the issue (at least for me) of how sorcerers and warlocks can get power from these beings, it would also make fighting these creatures all the more interesting. Obviously I wouldn't give them all the benefits of the class, like the hit points (doing so could add over 200 extra HP to any one of them, which would obviously shoot their CR through the roof, possibly beyond what the system can even handle) and the any extra attacks they get would just add 1 more attack to their Multiattack.

Now here is what I am worried about: how would this affect their challenge rating. I know that at higher levels the CR begins to have less meaning, since characters begin to get items, abilities and stats that turn ancient forces of destruction into piles of mush, but I imagine that giving dragons access to Metamagic and the Uber Fiends access to Invocations and cantrips would be a tad bit gamebreaking to say the least. On top of that, the potential access to feats could push them over the edge into a single one of them being a TPK.

Am I justified in this worry, or would their challenge ratings be about the same? Is anyone willing to do a simulation of how a 20th level Sorcerer Adult Red Dragon or a 20th level Warlock Pit Fiend would do against a party of level 20 adventurers? I'd be very interested in seeing what the outcomes are.

[RickAllison]

Rules for giving class levels are in the DMG, and you will have to change the CR to accommodate. Let me give a sense of scale for how large the difference can be.

Vanilla Glabrezu: You can look in the MM to find what you want about him. CR 9 creature, decently powerful.

Let's toss on two levels of Wizard (Bladesinger): +2d10+10 HP and +4 AC right off the boat. That is a full CR increase on its own (+2 defensive CR cut in half). Shield increases his effective CR by +5, which bumps up the CR another time. With just one spell and the Bladesong bonuses, his CR was boosted by two. With just those differences and not accounting for any others, that's 11 CR (maybe 12 with the extra HP).

Bladesinger 18/Fighter 2: With a combination of Animate Objects boosting bonus action damage, Meteor Swarm, Action Surge, and several Disintegrates (or maybe I tossed in a Chain Lightning...), the humble glabrezu was boosted to a ridiculous CR 30. This is why there are no hard-and-fast rules for CR adjustments for monsters, the right monsters with the right class levels can be elevated to the levels of gods.

[supergoji18]

Rules for giving class levels are in the DMG, and you will have to change the CR to accommodate. Let me give a sense of scale for how large the difference can be.

Vanilla Glabrezu: You can look in the MM to find what you want about him. CR 9 creature, decently powerful.

Let's toss on two levels of Wizard (Bladesinger): +2d10+10 HP and +4 AC right off the boat. That is a full CR increase on its own (+2 defensive CR cut in half). Shield increases his effective CR by +5, which bumps up the CR another time. With just one spell and the Bladesong bonuses, his CR was boosted by two. With just those differences and not accounting for any others, that's 11 CR (maybe 12 with the extra HP).

Bladesinger 18/Fighter 2: With a combination of Animate Objects boosting bonus action damage, Meteor Swarm, Action Surge, and several Disintegrates (or maybe I tossed in a Chain Lightning...), the humble glabrezu was boosted to a ridiculous CR 30. This is why there are no hard-and-fast rules for CR adjustments for monsters, the right monsters with the right class levels can be elevated to the levels of gods.
I'd say gods help us all, but that thing would probably have killed them all already :smalleek:

So if I were to only give them the class features, not the extra hit points proficiencies or equipment, how would that affect things? I was thinking that for Pit Fiends and Balors I would only give about 11 to 15 levels worth of warlock class features, while for Dragons it would scale something like this:
White/Brass: sorcerer 1,2,3,4
Black/Copper: sorcerer 2,4,6,8
Green/Bronze: sorcerer 3,6,9,12
Blue/Silder: sorcerer 4,8,12,16
Red/Gold: sorcerer 5,10,15,20

I doubt the lower level increases will affect much, but higher level ones might be very strong. That being said, there really aren't many class features that a Draconic Sorcerer would get that it doesn't already have for being a dragon, but the spellcasting and metamagic is useful. Plus, flexible casting.

Thoughts?

[RickAllison]

I'd say gods help us all, but that thing would probably have killed them all already :smalleek:

So if I were to only give them the class features, not the extra hit points proficiencies or equipment, how would that affect things? I was thinking that for Pit Fiends and Balors I would only give about 11 to 15 levels worth of warlock class features, while for Dragons it would scale something like this:
White/Brass: sorcerer 1,2,3,4
Black/Copper: sorcerer 2,4,6,8
Green/Bronze: sorcerer 3,6,9,12
Blue/Silder: sorcerer 4,8,12,16
Red/Gold: sorcerer 5,10,15,20

I doubt the lower level increases will affect much, but higher level ones might be very strong. That being said, there really aren't many class features that a Draconic Sorcerer would get that it doesn't already have for being a dragon, but the spellcasting and metamagic is useful. Plus, flexible casting.

Thoughts?

I would just like to point out that the only equipment that went into the glabrezu was the Tiny objects that were animated. Honestly, not giving them extra hit points seems like an awful idea. It decreases their actual CR while the threat level remains the same. The actual threat level compared to CR can be mitigated through use of proper spells. The Bladesinging Demon above was an example of a monster created to maximize his CR (as an example to my DM of how I could theoretically True Polymorph into Tiamat with only one side-stop) so how you pick out the numbers can have a great effect on the CR and the true threat level. As for your creatures, let's get to it!

I will be updating the next parts as I work on them.

Pit Fiends and Balors as Warlocks... Balors actually seem to be under-CR by the formula. What pact were you thinking? Fiend probably is the patron. If we go Pact of the Blade to 12th level with a Balor and make his longsword his pact weapon, taking Lifedrinker and Thirsting Blade gives a baseline DPR of 100 (2*(3d8+8+6+3d8)+20 from Fire Aura) and with the +18 HP adjustment for the first fiend patron benefit, we get a CR of 20 already. At this point, the only spells that can actually increase the Balor's DPR are spells that use his bonus action, as I can't find any L5 or L6 spells for warlocks that have an increase in DPR over his double longsword attack. With Dual-Wielder feat, he can deal an extra 5d6 damage as a TWF bonus action, which boosts the CR up to 21.5 and gives +1 AC. Resilient (Dex) fills in a weakness and provides an extra half-CR, as well as boosting AC by 1 to fill out a half-CR to get to 22.5. Fire Shield boosts DPR by 9, and Armor of Agathys boosts DPR by 25 and exchanges the +18 from the fiend benefit to hit +25 THP. If we have the Balorlock use his first turn to cast Hold Person/Monster (and so reducing his first turn DPR to only 56), he can get his criticals on the next two turns. With the Balor's augmented crits on the longsword, that ends up with 2(12d8)+5d6 or 119 extra DPR, which boosts our three-turn average to 212, which bumps our CR to 25, and we can take the last ASI in Dex to get one more AC to boot. Pretty impressive, and it would only get higher with more levels. Take it to Lock 14 and the CR boosts to 26 due to the extra 55 damage from Hurl Through Hell. That is not too shabby at all.

Pit Fiends as warlocks, now. Much of the optimization that went on for the Balor doesn't apply over here because the pit fiend has several great strengths that don't synergize as well with warlock features. Let's start with figuring out the DPR from his Multiattack. His Bite attack deals 22 (4d8+4) damage and 21 (6d6) poison at the start of the target's turn; for DPR, we will assume that each target gets hit by the poison once. His Claw attack is simpler, 17 (2d8+8) damage. The Mace has a nice rider, dealing a total of 36 (2d6+8+6d6). Finally, the Tail deals 24 (3d10+8) damage, giving a Multiattack total of 120 damage, which will be hard to beat for the warlock. Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield still apply, giving 25 THP and +34 damage. Hold Person will not do much with this creature since the damage he loses isn't made up by the triple damage criticals of the Balor. Honestly, while warlocks give much more versatility to the Pit Fiend, there just does not exist much synergy between his attacks and the spells. Best I can think of is Hex for an extra 4d6 per turn.

Dragon Sorcerers should be easier to handle because they are pretty straightforward. You could get a pretty good estimate by having them Quicken the highest damage spells possible and then use the dragon's action to either Multiattack or use the breath weapon. Barring the great Multiattack, this plays pretty much like an ordinary sorcerer.

Slightly off-topic, how terrifying would Sprite Rogues be? Rather than a tiny bit of damage for being Tiny, they deal the full Sneak Attack damage and become insanely hard to hit.

[supergoji18]

I would just like to point out that the only equipment that went into the glabrezu was the Tiny objects that were animated. Honestly, not giving them extra hit points seems like an awful idea. It decreases their actual CR while the threat level remains the same. The actual threat level compared to CR can be mitigated through use of proper spells. The Bladesinging Demon above was an example of a monster created to maximize his CR (as an example to my DM of how I could theoretically True Polymorph into Tiamat with only one side-stop) so how you pick out the numbers can have a great effect on the CR and the true threat level. As for your creatures, let's get to it!

I will be updating the next parts as I work on them.

Pit Fiends and Balors as Warlocks... Balors actually seem to be under-CR by the formula. What pact were you thinking? Fiend probably is the patron. If we go Pact of the Blade to 12th level with a Balor and make his longsword his pact weapon, taking Lifedrinker and Thirsting Blade gives a baseline DPR of 100 (2*(3d8+8+6+3d8)+20 from Fire Aura) and with the +18 HP adjustment for the first fiend patron benefit, we get a CR of 20 already. At this point, the only spells that can actually increase the Balor's DPR are spells that use his bonus action, as I can't find any L5 or L6 spells for warlocks that have an increase in DPR over his double longsword attack. With Dual-Wielder feat, he can deal an extra 5d6 damage as a TWF bonus action, which boosts the CR up to 21.5 and gives +1 AC. Resilient (Dex) fills in a weakness and provides an extra half-CR, as well as boosting AC by 1 to fill out a half-CR to get to 22.5. Fire Shield boosts DPR by 9, and Armor of Agathys boosts DPR by 25 and exchanges the +18 from the fiend benefit to hit +25 THP. If we have the Balorlock use his first turn to cast Hold Person/Monster (and so reducing his first turn DPR to only 56), he can get his criticals on the next two turns. With the Balor's augmented crits on the longsword, that ends up with 2(12d8)+5d6 or 119 extra DPR, which boosts our three-turn average to 212, which bumps our CR to 25, and we can take the last ASI in Dex to get one more AC to boot. Pretty impressive, and it would only get higher with more levels. Take it to Lock 14 and the CR boosts to 26 due to the extra 55 damage from Hurl Through Hell. That is not too shabby at all.

Pit Fiends as warlocks, now. Much of the optimization that went on for the Balor doesn't apply over here because the pit fiend has several great strengths that don't synergize as well with warlock features. Let's start with figuring out the DPR from his Multiattack. His Bite attack deals 22 (4d8+4) damage and 21 (6d6) poison at the start of the target's turn; for DPR, we will assume that each target gets hit by the poison once. His Claw attack is simpler, 17 (2d8+8) damage. The Mace has a nice rider, dealing a total of 36 (2d6+8+6d6). Finally, the Tail deals 24 (3d10+8) damage, giving a Multiattack total of 120 damage, which will be hard to beat for the warlock. Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield still apply, giving 25 THP and +34 damage. Hold Person will not do much with this creature since the damage he loses isn't made up by the triple damage criticals of the Balor. Honestly, while warlocks give much more versatility to the Pit Fiend, there just does not exist much synergy between his attacks and the spells. Best I can think of is Hex for an extra 4d6 per turn.

Dragon Sorcerers should be easier to handle because they are pretty straightforward. You could get a pretty good estimate by having them Quicken the highest damage spells possible and then use the dragon's action to either Multiattack or use the breath weapon. Barring the great Multiattack, this plays pretty much like an ordinary sorcerer.

Slightly off-topic, how terrifying would Sprite Rogues be? Rather than a tiny bit of damage for being Tiny, they deal the full Sneak Attack damage and become insanely hard to hit.
The shield still had a large impact it seems.

Yes I was thinking Fiend pact for both of them.

Ok, I didn't realize that would push them that far up 0_0 maybe we will just give them class features, no feats or ASIs? I'm surprised Pit Fiend doesn't benefit as much. All that being said, I was going to mostly use the Warlock Levels not just for offense, but also for utility. Ex: giving them Plane Shift, Mass Suggestion, and a variety of spells to help them achieve their goals as fiends.

So for Ancient Reds and Golds, Quickened Meteor Swarm + Multiattack = everything dies screaming.

A good Thunderwave will still kill it, provided it fails the save, so the CR wouldn't increase by that much. Luckily it's a con save, so we don't need to worry about the Evasive feature or a Sprite's high dex. But in theory a few levels in rogue would make it a much more dangerous foe than the average Sprite. Also it flies so...
And now I can't get the image of a Swashbuckling Sprite out of my head.

[gullveig]

TBH... I think this is a really stupid idea.

Too much work for too little gain... Monsters should be simpler than players because (1) monsters have little time under the spot light and (2) the DM already have lots of other things to do.

If you really want "classed" monsters, give it few abilities and call it Classed Mob #2 or whatever.

Example:
Background: In the end of the cave, the players find that crazed dwarf worshiper of The Great Old One...
Instead giving him full Warlock levels, give him like a cantrip, three spell slots, four spells known, one or two invocations and it's done. Give him what he need to the story and forget what is unnecessary.

Seriously, you are wasting your time giving class levels to monsters.

[Belac93]

I would say only do this for certain monsters.

Will every pit fiend have 10-20 warlock levels? No. But certain ones who give pacts? Hell yes. (pun not intended.)

Will every dragon have levels as sorcerer? Maybe. Will Ragnaz, conqueror of empires, eater of damsels, and the king of ten thousand treasures have sorcerer levels? Of course!

So, not every monster needs levels. But named, elite, or trained ones might.

e.g: In an orc tribe, the orc king might have 5 levels as a barbarian, while his second in command has 3, various elite minions have 1, and the tribe shaman has 4 of druid.
In a sprite village, most will have none, the king will have 8 levels of rogue, his bodyguards will have 2 levels of fighter, and his son will have 6 levels of rogue.

[gfishfunk]

Actually, there is some assumption that NPCs have determinable class levels, and that might include 'monsters' because the line between character races and monster races is not necessarily clear.

One of the subclasses of Fighters have the ability to interact and watch an NPC for 10 minutes and determine how many fighter levels that NPC has, which strongly implies that the answer can tend to be more than zero.

[Tanarii]

If you give monsters full caster levels, you're giving them nova power that players of a comparable caster level wouldn't be expected (generally) to have. A player has to make his spell slots (along with other resources such as hit points) last for about 5 encounters before they get a Long Rest. A monster typically only has one battle to use them in.

Also, the PHB makes it pretty clear that the source of Warlock's Power is far more than mere Balors or Pit Fiends. SCAG expands on that by listed explicit sources for Forgotten Realms, and they're all pseudo-deities.

Edit: I'm not saying not to do it, nor not to make that your campaign assumption. But don't do it without understanding some of the pitfalls, or that you're not making the same assumptions as the baseline game for fluff.

[Zman]

There already exist rules for giving Monsters class levels and how to treat them. I wouldn't necessarily give them all full caster levels, though it can be perfectly viable for say Ancient Dragons and what not, just make sure to alter CRs appropriately. I would go the route of giving them some Single or multiuse abilities that are spells and then adjusting CR appropriately.

Now, it it also worth pointing out that those granting powers are almost always beyond the power level of anything in the Monster Manual. They are Demon Lords, Gods, or forces of nature. Basically they are things you don't stat out and are plot devices.

[pwykersotz]

If the thing bothering you is the fluff, you should fix it on the fluff side. Make it so that these creatures can use rituals to duplicate any class effect that they desire that relates to what they should be able to grant. But keep the class levels separate to indicate that, while the Dragon of Fiend knows of this power and can use it, the PC is has this as their exclusive toolkit and has mastered it. Can the dragon cast Meteor Swarm? Yes, they can spend ten minutes or an hour and summon it forth. Do they bother mastering it to the level where they can do it in one round? No, they are above such things.

In terms of giving class levels for other reasons, I say go for it if you're prepared to adjust CR as described above. If not, you still might be able to wing it depending on the feel you have for the game. It can be fun either way. :smallsmile:

[RickAllison]

As can be summarized by all of the comments on this thread, adding class levels to monsters is not something to be done lightly. If you use a martial class, it can be fairly straightforward (four attacks with the Balor's longsword make for a much simpler calculation than worrying about all the interlocking effects that spells can have, unless you make the mistake of trying to figure out how the tripled crits interact with the expected value of the expanded crit range of the Champion fighter) but even a one or two level dip in a caster class can have a far greater impact on the CR of a monster than intended. Stick lore bard or abjuration wizard levels on a rakshasa for Counterspell and you have someone who is able to utterly shut down PC casters while able to cherry pick spells to increase his ability to deal with the martials. Trying to calculate how much that increases his CR is a nightmare because it massively increases his threat level without any guidelines.

A pit fiend with three levels of barbarian (berserker) increases his DPR by 53 which bumps up his offensive CR 3 levels. Heck, two levels of Warlock or anything else to get either Hex or Hunter's Mark almost doubles the DPR of a Pentadrone. Stick Sharpshooter on a Quadrone and his DPR quadruples. Naturally, you don't have to take these options, but it is important to keep in mind.

[supergoji18]

Here's the thing though:

1. I'm FINE with the book keeping. If anything I kind of enjoy it, and I don't find it that difficult to do. I'm one of those weird people that like being technical, detailed or complicated.

2. The thing about only using class levels for special dragons/pit fiends/balors is that, quite frankly, they're ALL special. Meeting a dragon in a campaign, while it is a common thing to have in a campaign, is still a special event. Everything about it should feel special, from the creatures stats to its personality to its history, and everything in between. Plus, I doubt many campaigns will involve multiple Pit Fiends or Balors unless the characters start getting into Epic Boon territory (and how many games is that exactly?)

3. My players are clever. No, more than that, they're Dangerously Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy)! They know how to work a situation to their advantage. Also, they're kind of OP. We're using the "free feat at first level" house rule and then they went and rolled obscenely good stats... all of them... All 6 of them...

4. I'm not going to make them go nova. That isn't how a player character would play their sorcerer, why would the (at least lore wise) much more clever and careful Dragons and Uber Fiends do the same? As far as those monsters know, a rival of theirs might be waiting for them right as soon as it is through with the players, so it wouldn't waste all of its abilities right away. They'd start out small, see if it can win without expending too much effort, and then when it starts to realize its losing it brings out the big guns.

[Tanarii]

1. I'm FINE with the book keeping. If anything I kind of enjoy it, and I don't find it that difficult to do. I'm one of those weird people that like being technical, detailed or complicated.

4. I'm not going to make them go nova. That isn't how a player character would play their sorcerer, why would the (at least lore wise) much more clever and careful Dragons and Uber Fiends do the same? As far as those monsters know, a rival of theirs might be waiting for them right as soon as it is through with the players, so it wouldn't waste all of its abilities right away. They'd start out small, see if it can win without expending too much effort, and then when it starts to realize its losing it brings out the big guns.Read number four, and was going to ask "why bother then?" Then I went back and reread number 1. :)

Seriously though, unless there's a mechanical reason it needs far more than just the spells for the the encounter(s) available, and for some reason those spells can't just be done with off-screen hand-waving, the only real reason to stat it out with character class levels instead of just assigning spells needed for the encounter(s) specifically, is for your own entertainment.

[Thrudd]

If your characters are all high level and you can't challenge them with anything in the MM, then why not? Give a demon or a dragon a bunch of spells, or extra AC or HP or extra attacks or whatever you want. Populate your world with whatever makes sense to you. I wouldn't recommend that everyone automatically make all their dragons this powerful, I understand why the game leaves them as they are, with spell casting variant as optional.

[supergoji18]

Read number four, and was going to ask "why bother then?" Then I went back and reread number 1. :)

Seriously though, unless there's a mechanical reason it needs far more than just the spells for the the encounter(s) available, and for some reason those spells can't just be done with off-screen hand-waving, the only real reason to stat it out with character class levels instead of just assigning spells needed for the encounter(s) specifically, is for your own entertainment.

I felt that it gave a justification for some of their powers and how they have pacts. But in hindsight I guess you're right, I can just give them some Invocations and abilities form Warlock instead. At the very least they should have Hurl Through Hell and a few other abilities.

However, I feel strongly about giving Dragons levels in Sorcerer, minus the HP and ASI/Feats (that would shoot their CR past what the system could probably handle). I guess it's personal bias because I'm such a massive fan of them, but I like to make them a very special kind of creature.

[RickAllison]

I felt that it gave a justification for some of their powers and how they have pacts. But in hindsight I guess you're right, I can just give them some Invocations and abilities form Warlock instead. At the very least they should have Hurl Through Hell and a few other abilities.

However, I feel strongly about giving Dragons levels in Sorcerer, minus the HP and ASI/Feats (that would shoot their CR past what the system could probably handle). I guess it's personal bias because I'm such a massive fan of them, but I like to make them a very special kind of creature.

Trust me, it is a lot harder to boost CR once you get past a certain point :smallsmile:. I have tried my best to get dragons up to CR 30 before and there was always a barrier that hit. Dragons are immensely powerful, versatile, and wonderfully flavorful opponents, but they have so little synergy with class features. The Glabrezu synergizes perfectly as a Bladesinger gish because he combines melee with spellcasting beautifully, the Balor's triple crits with the longsword could make for a terrifying Champion as can the Angelic Weapons feature of the angels, Bugbears beg for Barbarian/Assassin builds with battleaxes (really greataxes, but alliteration was too good to pass up), the seven attacks of Mariliths go beautifully with an Oathbreaker Paladin, but dragons don't really increase much with class levels compared to others...

[JoeJ]

One thing to watch out for is losing flavor. If you give a monster too many class levels you might end up with a sorcerer that has wings and a (completely secondary) breath weapon instead of a dragon that can also cast spells.

[INDYSTAR188]

Trust me, it is a lot harder to boost CR once you get past a certain point :smallsmile:. I have tried my best to get dragons up to CR 30 before and there was always a barrier that hit. Dragons are immensely powerful, versatile, and wonderfully flavorful opponents, but they have so little synergy with class features. The Glabrezu synergizes perfectly as a Bladesinger gish because he combines melee with spellcasting beautifully, the Balor's triple crits with the longsword could make for a terrifying Champion as can the Angelic Weapons feature of the angels, Bugbears beg for Barbarian/Assassin builds with battleaxes (really greataxes, but alliteration was too good to pass up), the seven attacks of Mariliths go beautifully with an Oathbreaker Paladin, but dragons don't really increase much with class levels compared to others...

On a scale of '1-to-Super Complicated' how difficult would you say the rules for giving class levels are? On the topic specifically, I prefer to handle the problems in the OP by fluff/handwaving. I can definitely appreciate the thought exercise though. I enjoy reading deity and elemental princes stats even though I probably won't ever use most of them. I also like filling out character sheets for characters I probably won't get to use either.

[RickAllison]

On a scale of '1-to-Super Complicated' how difficult would you say the rules for giving class levels are? On the topic specifically, I prefer to handle the problems in the OP by fluff/handwaving. I can definitely appreciate the thought exercise though. I enjoy reading deity and elemental princes stats even though I probably won't ever use most of them. I also like filling out character sheets for characters I probably won't get to use either.

The rules for giving class levels? Easy as pie. Literally, you just give them class levels, give extra hit dice for the monster's size, and you're good. You calculate proficiency based on CR, however, and that is where things get tricky. It's not an issue of the rules for giving class levels, it's about the issue of translating the extra possibilities of the PC classes into the CR. Honestly, if you keep the spells and abilities in easy-to-handle categories like Shield and Rage, you should be fine. If you don't expect to ever use Animate Objects, Flaming Sphere, or other such CR-boosters in combat then you don't have to worry about calculating for them.

[Tanarii]

I felt that it gave a justification for some of their powers and how they have pacts. But in hindsight I guess you're right, I can just give them some Invocations and abilities form Warlock instead. At the very least they should have Hurl Through Hell and a few other abilities.

However, I feel strongly about giving Dragons levels in Sorcerer, minus the HP and ASI/Feats (that would shoot their CR past what the system could probably handle). I guess it's personal bias because I'm such a massive fan of them, but I like to make them a very special kind of creature.why do they need to explicitly have sorcerer levels though? Why can't you just assign them the relevant spells, and say "they're a sorcerer". That's how NPC humanoids work by default. The Archmage isn't a level 17 wizard fully statted out.

Ditto for fiends or fey or aberrations that are the source of warlock powers. Give them the key abilities that are their favorites to use in encounters, then call them warlocks. Or warlock patron's servants, intermediates between the patrons & the warlock, to be more accurate.

Unless there's some special reason they need to be fully statted out warlocks or sorcerers?

[supergoji18]

why do they need to explicitly have sorcerer levels though? Why can't you just assign them the relevant spells, and say "they're a sorcerer". That's how NPC humanoids work by default. The Archmage isn't a level 17 wizard fully statted out.

Ditto for fiends or fey or aberrations that are the source of warlock powers. Give them the key abilities that are their favorites to use in encounters, then call them warlocks. Or warlock patron's servants, intermediates between the patrons & the warlock, to be more accurate.

Unless there's some special reason they need to be fully statted out warlocks or sorcerers?

Well at first it seemed easier to just give them the class levels minus the HP, rather than going through the book and deciding what I wanted to keep and what I wanted to throw away. For the Dragons and Sorcerers it seemed to work out.

But for the Pit Fiends and Balors I suppose it would be easier to just pick a couple of Invocations they can use.

[RickAllison]

Well at first it seemed easier to just give them the class levels minus the HP, rather than going through the book and deciding what I wanted to keep and what I wanted to throw away. For the Dragons and Sorcerers it seemed to work out.

But for the Pit Fiends and Balors I suppose it would be easier to just pick a couple of Invocations they can use.

Oh yeah. Much, much simpler. Class levels are really good if you want to make a fully-fleshed out, long-term NPCs. A Balor or Pit Fiend you wanted to harass the party over an adventure? Sure, he has a nice arsenal to screw with the party at leisure. A random one the party is facing? Easier to pick and choose features.

[Tanarii]

Well at first it seemed easier to just give them the class levels minus the HP, rather than going through the book and deciding what I wanted to keep and what I wanted to throw away.
Hahaha okay that's why I'm so confused. I'm not suggesting fully stating out a sorcerer, then choosing what to keep. That would obviously be more complicated.

I'm suggesting picking a max spell level, then grabbing one spell from each level from that level on down that sounds cool. Or just grabbing a handful of spells (maybe 2-3 for one combat) that you think would be relevant to the encounter and just call out "sorcerer" when the players get hit by it. (Or see it come into play for non-combat scenario.)

I mean, from the players perspective it doesn't need to be formalized. They just see a big already terrifying dragon casting spells on top of everything else it can do.

Edit: I agree with Rick, for a recurring opponent it's probably worth putting in a lot more time. Especially since you'll have times when they try to get away when the stupid murderhobos inevitably start combat when they should be trading barbed comments, and the pesky humanoids actually catch up shortly after and start a whole new combat! What's a villain gotta do to get some respect around here?!

Ahem. Anyway, in that case, multi-encounter resources become a thing on the villains side.

[RickAllison]

Since you inspired me, I'm going to put out a Marilith Paladin/Fighter/Assassin. This is the ultimate in Nova-ing, but it fits with an elite demon general who inspires by fundamentally changing the battlefield when she enters.

Oathbreaker 14/Champion 3/Assassin 3
Basic attacks all get an extra 1d8+5 from Improved Divine Smite and Aura of Hate, so the at-will damage of her Multiattack comes in at a glorious 159 DPR unless she uses a Magic Initiate Hex or Hunter's Mark in which case it is 184 DPR. The first-round DPR will be 11 Divine Smites for 34d8 which becomes 64d8 with crits with an Action Surge to capitalize on auto-crits; this gives an utterly ridiculous 610 damage.

[supergoji18]

Since you inspired me, I'm going to put out a Marilith Paladin/Fighter/Assassin. This is the ultimate in Nova-ing, but it fits with an elite demon general who inspires by fundamentally changing the battlefield when she enters.

Oathbreaker 14/Champion 3/Assassin 3
Basic attacks all get an extra 1d8+5 from Improved Divine Smite and Aura of Hate, so the at-will damage of her Multiattack comes in at a glorious 159 DPR unless she uses a Magic Initiate Hex or Hunter's Mark in which case it is 184 DPR. The first-round DPR will be 11 Divine Smites for 34d8 which becomes 64d8 with crits with an Action Surge to capitalize on auto-crits; this gives an utterly ridiculous 610 damage. please... sir... stop... you're breaking my mind with these numbers... that Marilith may as well be a demon lord at that point... She does almost as much damage as Tiamat has health...

[RickAllison]

please... sir... stop... you're breaking my mind with these numbers... that Marilith may as well be a demon lord at that point... She does almost as much damage as Tiamat has health...

It's a hobby! If there is a spell that can better increase the damage per attack, I think I could get the damage up even further, but I'm less familiar with paladins as a whole. As it stands, I doubt any goristro or balor would want to be her boss; she has a fairly good chance of killing two of them before they even have a chance to act...

[supergoji18]

It's a hobby! If there is a spell that can better increase the damage per attack, I think I could get the damage up even further, but I'm less familiar with paladins as a whole. As it stands, I doubt any goristro or balor would want to be her boss; she has a fairly good chance of killing two of them before they even have a chance to act...

right, so we'll be forgetting about class levels for those monsters and just stick to giving them some fun abilities.

I've actually gone and taken your advice about giving Dragons the extra HP... the Ancients have anywhere between 600 to 900 HP. Its terrifying, but they're meant to be a challenge even for level 20, so I guess it's ok.

I also decided to give all the dragons the same levels in sorcerer dependent on their age: Wyrmling gets level 1, Young gets level 6, Adult gets level 11, and Ancient gets level 16. That way they all remain a bit more consistent and we don't have to worry about dragons wishing for the party to die instantly.