Unlock Spell Lists

[ZenBear]

Where would the game break if you allowed spellcasters freedom to choose from any spell regardless of list, excepting unique limitations like EK abj/evo schools?

[Tenmujiin]

The EK/AT restrictions is probably the only reatrictions that don't need to be there for game balance.

If a player wants a specific spell or two then allowi g them the spell might be ok, I wouldn't give wizards bless or clerics wish though. Remember that the main reason people think Bards are extremely powerful is because they can take a few spells from other lists.

[RickAllison]

Where would the game break if you allowed spellcasters freedom to choose from any spell regardless of list, excepting unique limitations like EK abj/evo schools?

Do remember that one of the most powerful abilities of the Bard is the fact that they have a limited unlocked library. For example, Destructive Wave is a powerful spell that deals great damage, auto-sculpts to keep allies safe, and knocks enemies prone if they fail. It is only naturally available to L17 paladins and one cleric domain, as well as through Magical Secrets. Admittedly, it would provide great synergy with my beloved storm sorcerers to gish while letting out massive amounts of AoE damage through Heart of the Storm through that and Call Lightning...

[Hrugner]

It probably wouldn't matter too much for 1/2 and 1/3 casters. It would make them better, but not really amazing. Class choices that give new spells, such as domains and circle druid would need to be revisited and rebalanced. Warlock would probably get weird, getting a load of paladin spells every short rest would interesting. Bard would need a boost since it's losing it's coolest feature.

But, just opening up to arcane trickster, eldritch knight, paladin and ranger shouldn't change the balance all that much.

[Gastronomie]

It will actually make Warlocks pretty damn good, as already mentioned.

Apart from that... maybe giving the non-casters an extra magic item and making the encounters more tough would balance stuff out.

[pwykersotz]

You may as well ask why classes can't cherry pick class features. Spells are modular class features designed to synergize with the caster in different ways. A sorcerer would be much more powerful being able to use his metamagic on every spell, for example.

So no, the game wouldn't "break" per se, it would just skew the balance heavily in favor of casters. And not every spell is exploitable or overpowered, just like not every class feature would be bad to swap out. But it pretty much destroys the concept of classes in the first place, which the game is fairly heavily based around.

[MrStabby]

So if a character has a reason for it I will let them swap spell lists between cleric, warlock, druid and sorcerer but I wouldn't let them cherry pick spells.

Firstly it would seriously diminish some classes/archetypes. Magical Secrets becomes almost worthless, domain spells that get you access to other class spells become relatively unimportant.

Secondly there is the balance issue. More choice and getting the best spells from each class is obviously more power, but there are also some abilities that begin to crack.

Clerics taking eldritch blast as a cleric spell then adding potent spellcasting to it? Suddenly they appropriate the warlocks iconic feature. But why stop there? Take some warlock levels, pick agonising blast and add both Cha and Wis to the damage...

Thirdly there are some specific spells that are just very powerful with other class features - take a cleric for example, it has heavy armour and a shield, but can now cast a shield spell. It can also cast high level armour of agathys. Suddenly it can sit in the middle of melee with spirit guardians whopping everything nearby without worrying about failing a concentration save.


I think that this is a bit too open for abuse.

[Captbrannigan]

A major problem d&d has had for awhile now is the spell levels for half/third casters. It's nice and simple for a Paladin to have 1-5th level spells, they get a linear progression. However, as soon as Magical Secrets (or other such ability to cherry pick from any list) comes along you run into issues.

Take Aura of Vitality, a 3rd level Paladin healing spell: 2d6/rd for 1 min, can pick a new or the same target each rd. The lowest comparable Cleric spell is Mass Cure Wounds, level 5, 3d8 + mod to up to 6 targets, can't funnel it to who needs it most. Wanna know why spells two levels apart compete with each other? Single classed characters would normally each get those spells at level 9.

Imo, all level 3 spells should use the same amount of "mana" and have similar power levels. Classes should have limited lists for flavor and balance, but it's confusing to rebalance the spells themselves to appear at various levels across lists.

[mephnick]

If anything the EK/AT restriction is the one that never should have existed.

[Captbrannigan]

If anything the EK/AT restriction is the one that never should have existed.

It makes sense for them to have restricted lists, but they should have been customized rather than blanket coverage by school.

[weaseldust]

Take Aura of Vitality, a 3rd level Paladin healing spell: 2d6/rd for 1 min, can pick a new or the same target each rd. The lowest comparable Cleric spell is Mass Cure Wounds, level 5, 3d8 + mod to up to 6 targets, can't funnel it to who needs it most. Wanna know why spells two levels apart compete with each other? Single classed characters would normally each get those spells at level 9.

Imo, all level 3 spells should use the same amount of "mana" and have similar power levels. Classes should have limited lists for flavor and balance, but it's confusing to rebalance the spells themselves to appear at various levels across lists.

Aura of Vitality does require your concentration and bonus action and the targeting is a little bit harder (creatures within 30 feet of you vs within 30 feet of a point within 60 feet). Also, Aura of Vitality gives you max 10 times 2d6, for an average of 70HP restored (i.e. if you use it every round for 1 minute), vs a max of 6 times 3d8+5, for an average of 111HP restored. So Mass Cure Wounds definitely deserves to be of a higher level (which isn't to say you couldn't argue Aura of Vitality up a level, or Mass Cure Wounds down a level, but the current levels are close to where they should be).

I'd say the corresponding Cleric spell is really Prayer of Healing, though. It's not an in-combat spell, but my guess is that's about encouraging a different play style for Clerics from Paladins.

[mephnick]

Yeah, I restrict to 2 schools but you can choose them.

Illusion/Transmutation EK's are pretty fun!

[Citan]

So if a character has a reason for it I will let them swap spell lists between cleric, warlock, druid and sorcerer but I wouldn't let them cherry pick spells.

Firstly it would seriously diminish some classes/archetypes.

Secondly there is the balance issue.

Thirdly there are some specific spells that are just very powerful with other class features

- take a cleric for example, it has heavy armour and a shield, but can now cast a shield spell. It can also cast high level armour of agathys. Suddenly it can sit in the middle of melee with spirit guardians whopping everything nearby without worrying about failing a concentration save.

100% Agreed with this. I can very well allow ONE spell swap with proper justification, as long as this doesn't break.
Maybe swapping a school for EK and AT.
But nothing more.

One who would like to achieve combos such as the last one you described could still do it... Through multiclassing. Hence trading something for another. While I love munchkinism as much as the next one, as a player and above all as a DM, this seems fair enough to me. :)