Spells you'd want to see in-comic?

[ghoul-n]

Inspired by this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html). You can choose three if you want to.

I'd go with Storm of Vengeance (courtesy of being the most epic thing ever), Horrid Wilting (stuff always gave me nightmares) and Wish (to see how can it be deconstructed/reconstructed).

[AvatarVecna]

Inspired by this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html). You can choose three if you want to.

I'd go with Storm of Vengeance (courtesy of being the most epic thing ever), Horrid Wilting (stuff always gave me nightmares) and Wish (to see how can it be deconstructed/reconstructed).

While your first two seem like something we might get to see at some point (because they're awesome), the third is less likely, outside of epilogue stuff: from what I understand, Rich stays away from certain kinds of spell for their ability to render certain plots almost completely irrelevant. I think he's outright stated that he's never going to employ the total cop-out that is "True Resurrection", due to how it renders all death-related drama null and void, and he's shied away from Teleportation abilities due to how they take away from the "long walk" trope so integral to the genre (this is why V can't cast Teleport, and why every other source of teleportation was a temporary plot device that was established in-story as "well, we can't ever use that again"). Raise Dead also takes away drama from death, but you at least need the body for Raise Dead; True Resurrection doesn't need anything other than the material component. And that kind of plot-dodging BS is what Wish is infamous for, even when it's not being abused.

Here's the spells I'd like to see in-comic: Incendiary Cloud, Waves of Exhaustion, and Move Earth.

[RatElemental]

I kind of want to say revive undead, just to see if it's in play. Laurin referring to Malack being dead for good may refer to this particular spell not existing, or the fact that he probably blew away in the wind.

Other than that, has prestidigitation been used? I always liked that spell for some reason.

Finally, Defenestrating Sphere. I mean, it's a spell built around throwing people out of windows, how could I not pick it?

[Rodin]

Power Word: Blind, because V made a big deal of scribing that spell into hir spellbook and has never yet found a use for it.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Other than that, has prestidigitation been used? I always liked that spell for some reason.

Yes - 2nd panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html)

[Fitzclowningham]

I'd like to see someone (or more than one) run a con using only cantrips.

[Vinyadan]

A civil war among bad guys could use an Apocalypse From the Sky spell.

Otherwise, Hideous Laughter. And some sun-based spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

Otto's Irresistible Dance

[Hamste]

Bonus points for hideous laughter and irresistible dance at the same time.... You are going to have fun like it or not.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Any of the {NAME} spells, just to see how the Giant will top Busgby. Other than that, Thunderswarm. Which is an electrical version of Meteor Swarm, and fun to unload on people with Fire Immunity.

[ChillerInstinct]

Otto's Irresistible Dance

Let's crank it up, shall we? Otto's Sphere of Dancing. Who knows, maybe if we get one of those dance party endings, Elan or V could summon one in lieu of a disco ball. :P

I'd like to see a successful Phantasmal Killer. Z tried it during BRitF, but not only did it fail but we really didn't get to see much of the form the Killer took beyond a green blob. I mean, maybe Yukyuk was terrified of green blobs in life, I dunno.

Oh, and more Power Words. Durkon finally got to pull off Holy last book after several teases, but Blind or Kill would be pretty neat, and V inscribed Blind and I'd assume Xykon likely has Kill on standby, just in case.

[martianmister]

Hideous Laughter.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Defenestration Sphere. Highly unlikely, but it be amazing.

[Hackman]

Hideous Laughter.

I think Qarr (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html) was hit by that actually.

[Lerch]

Heh. Vomit Swarm....and maybe Fumbletongue would be fun too see.

[martianmister]

I think Qarr (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html) was hit by that actually.

You're mistaken. That's Impious Laughter.

[Murk]

I'd like to see a successful Phantasmal Killer. Z tried it during BRitF, but not only did it fail but we really didn't get to see much of the form the Killer took beyond a green blob. I mean, maybe Yukyuk was terrified of green blobs in life, I dunno.


Seeing how he eventually died, that could very well be a prophetic fear. Poor Yukyuk.

[KorvinStarmast]

Otto's Sphere of Dancing.
Spell cast by Juan Revolting, who is clearly a magician ...

I'd like to see a successful Phantasmal Killer.
Performed by David Burns and the Talking Undeads, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Euclidodese]

Speak With Plants.

'Mighty Daffodil! Did you see a vampire dwarven cleric walk passed here two hours ago, and if so was he alone and in what direction did he travel?'

'I don't have eyes or a brain, you genius. I couldn't possibly comprehend any of the concepts you just mentioned, or the ones I'm mentioning right now. And I can't see.'

'I just wasted my spell slot didn't I?'

'That's another concept I don't understand.'

'What can you tell us?'

'I could have a go at the direction of the sun.'

[Reboot]

Not strictly a spell, but can one imagine how V's oft-fragile sanity and short temper would survive a Ring of Bureaucratic Wizardry (http://www.thievesguild.cc/magic-items/magic-item?itemid=79)?

[InvisibleBison]

I think it would be interesting to see an antimagic field in action, or in inaction, or whatever.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think it would be interesting to see an antimagic field in action, or in inaction, or whatever.

There ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)

[nyjastul69]

Defenestration Sphere. Highly unlikely, but it be amazing.

This is what I want to see. Why would it be unlikely? This is a comic. Comics should be funny. Throwing people or things out of windows is funny.

[MesiDoomstalker]

This is what I want to see. Why would it be unlikely? This is a comic. Comics should be funny. Throwing people or things out of windows is funny.

It's in a copyrighted book. Granted, we saw an Orb of X spell, which comes from the same book.

[Rogar Demonblud]

To quote someone with some experience in copyright: Parody is fair use.

[Reboot]

It's in a copyrighted book. Granted, we saw an Orb of X spell, which comes from the same book.

No we didn't. We saw two "X Orb" spells. Totally different ;)

[Kornaki]

Any of the {NAME} spells, just to see how the Giant will top Busgby. Other than that, Thunderswarm. Which is an electrical version of Meteor Swarm, and fun to unload on people with Fire Immunity.

As a lich, Xykon doesn't even need a magic item to be immune to electricity.

[Quild]

I think that Prismatic Spray in #927 or here (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/PrismaticSpray.png) was quite deceptive and could be rendered far better now.
It looks way more like Cone of Cold in #41 than Cone of Cold in #950.

I know that Prismatic Spray is supposed to be representated by mere beams, but I'd like to see something more shiny and windy. Something that would somehow look like the Snarl in #945.

[Kareasint]

Delayed Blast Fireball
Because seeing V yell "GRENADE!" would be too much fun to watch.

Prismatic Wall or Sphere
I would be interested to see how Rich actually draws this.

Heroes' Feast
1 hour to consume but the benefits would be awesome for a final fight. Also, it would be interesting to see Rich draw the spread on the table.

[F.Harr]

Bugsby's tooth-cleaning hand.

It cleans your teeth and will not stop until it has done so. And if you resist, it is not gentle. The offensive possibilities are simply astounding.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Delayed Blast Fireball
Because seeing V yell "GRENADE!" would be too much fun to watch.
Sounds more like Xykon to me. Or maybe he'd try to redo the thermal-detonator joke, only for Elan to point out that it had been done.
Of course, since it's Xykon, he probably has some fancier (or at least more interesting) spell for that purpose. Maybe one that creates a bouncy delayed-fireball-bead, so that his enemies don't know where it's going to hit? Or perhaps a fireball from one of those editions where it did more damage in a compressed space? (We know that obsolete spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) and even monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) exist in the OotSverse; they might be rare, but Xykon seems the type to hunt fun spells down.)

Anyways, with that in mind, I'd like to see three of Xykon's most interesting custom spells, epic or otherwise.

[Rogar Demonblud]

As a lich, Xykon doesn't even need a magic item to be immune to electricity.

I was thinking of targeting Redcloak, to be honest.

[RatElemental]

I was thinking of targeting Redcloak, to be honest.

I believe it was referencing this little pro tip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

Also, if it's at all relevent, we've seen Xykon's immunity to electricity in action (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html).

[KorvinStarmast]

Bugsby's tooth-cleaning hand.

It cleans your teeth and will not stop until it has done so. And if you resist, it is not gentle. The offensive possibilities are simply astounding.Does the material component include dental floss?

[keybounce]

... Or perhaps a fireball from one of those editions where it did more damage in a compressed space? (We know that obsolete spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) and even monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) exist in the OotSverse; they might be rare, but Xykon seems the type to hunt fun spells down.)


Ohh ... V knows wish ...

[Reboot]

Ohh ... V knows wish ...

And Durkon knows Miracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html). There's some stuff in the pre-#100 range of strips that shouldn't be considered too hard...

[KillingAScarab]

Defenestration Sphere. Highly unlikely, but it be amazing.I will second this. I even have an unintended use for it already lined up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279064-Help!-We-re-stuck-on-the-postive-energy-plane-and-we-can-t-breathe!&p=15037838&highlight=suffocate+defenestrating+sphere#post1503 7838).


Ohh ... V knows wish ...

And Durkon knows Miracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html). There's some stuff in the pre-#100 range of strips that shouldn't be considered too hard...That's not miracle. That's what happens when you plead with the DM while being the new character stuck playing a cleric trying to do a job with too few resources. ...not that this ever happened to me. ;>.>


I'd like to see a successful Phantasmal Killer.

Performed by David Burns and the Talking Undeads, right? :smallbiggrin:There's something special 'bout people like us
:smallamused:

[Rodin]

Delayed Blast Fireball
Because seeing V yell "GRENADE!" would be too much fun to watch.



Darth V uses one on the dragon here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html)

Sadly, the actual explosion is off-panel.

[Rift_Wolf]

Defenestrating Sphere is number one choice. I'd put every mook fight in a stained glass sky corridor just for that spell. I'd have showdowns with flying liches in cathedrals where they've made the windows part of their phylactery defences. I'd houserule that portals count as Windows during a battle against a Gith invasion force on the Astral Plane, and have soldiers and PCs lobbed into random universes as the fight progressed. I would build entire campaigns around a bad guy researching an epic version of that spell with the area measured in kilometres. In a world with magical skyscrapers.
Other spells; I'd like to see Shadow Conjuration, just because I think it'd look awesome. Also new art epic spells. Although most of the epic spells shown so far have been pretty utilitarian, I doubt Xykon would go without some more epic evocations.

[gellerche]

I'd like to see Shapechange. Someone else referenced the strip where V changes into a dragon, but that just shows the beginning creature and the end creature. I'd like to see the intermediary stages for a well fleshed-out depiction of the spell.

(Plus, I was always a big fan of the Hulk comic where Bruce Banner changed into his massive alter-ego.)

[Hamste]

I'd like to see Shapechange. Someone else referenced the strip where V changes into a dragon, but that just shows the beginning creature and the end creature. I'd like to see the intermediary stages for a well fleshed-out depiction of the spell.

(Plus, I was always a big fan of the Hulk comic where Bruce Banner changed into his massive alter-ego.)

Assuming shapechange works the way it does in D&D then there is literally nothing to see. It is a free action to change shape (limited to once per round though) and a free action takes a negligible amount of time to happen. Essentially the transformation happens in the blink of an eye.

[Quild]

I'd like to see Shapechange. Someone else referenced the strip where V changes into a dragon, but that just shows the beginning creature and the end creature. I'd like to see the intermediary stages for a well fleshed-out depiction of the spell.

(Plus, I was always a big fan of the Hulk comic where Bruce Banner changed into his massive alter-ego.)

It's not shapechange, but this is the visual effect you are looking for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html).

Reversed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html).

[Kish]

Assuming shapechange works the way it does in D&D
No assumption needed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html). Panels 3, 4, 5.

[MaSch]

- Spiritform / Wraithform

Allthough V already uses Passwall and Durkon already used Meld into Stone, so it's unlikely.

- Speak with animals / plants

Always fun to ask complicated questions to dumb animals or even plants. :smallwink:
One time one of our clerics asked a patch of moss some questions about disappearing guards. The moss was situated at the privy of the guards. It was literally pissed at the guards and happy, that they were gone. :smallbiggrin:

- Animate Object

- Age Object / Plant / Person
Throw some seeds to let giant trees sprout within a round, age Chains / Doors / Weapons / Armor to the point of uselessness.

[Kish]

- Spiritform / Wraithform
Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html)?

Allthough V already uses Passwall and Durkon already used Meld into Stone, so it's unlikely.

- Speak with animals / plants

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html).

[wumpus]

Let's crank it up, shall we? Otto's Sphere of Dancing. Who knows, maybe if we get one of those dance party endings, Elan or V could summon one in lieu of a disco ball. :P

I'd like to see a successful Phantasmal Killer. Z tried it during BRitF, but not only did it fail but we really didn't get to see much of the form the Killer took beyond a green blob. I mean, maybe Yukyuk was terrified of green blobs in life, I dunno.

Oh, and more Power Words. Durkon finally got to pull off Holy last book after several teases, but Blind or Kill would be pretty neat, and V inscribed Blind and I'd assume Xykon likely has Kill on standby, just in case.

I've been away from other computerized D&D games for awhile (didn't level high enough in either neverwinter nights, nor neverwinter online to see if they had it), but Dungeons and Dragons Online *did* include Otto's Sphere of Dancing, and it looks and acts exactly like a disco ball (DDO gives every monster/NPC dance moves, and some are worth casting the spell just to see. The Orthons (high level devils) head banging being one of them).

The problem with power words in OOTS is that we already know what to expect (not always what Rich draws). Holy word is just that. I'd expect "Blind", "Kill", and "Stun" to work similarly. Rich doesn't seem to like such forced jokes.

[Leewei]

Control Winds, used against enemy vampires in gaseous form - ideally to force them into sunlight.

Also, Ethereal Jaunt combined with an Enlarged, Invisible Spell Solid Fog to screw up incorporeal undead.

[Kish]

We've seen Power Word Stun, too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html). Though ChillerInstinct may know that, since it's not one of the ones they mentioned wanting to see.

[DaggerPen]

It's not shapechange, but this is the visual effect you are looking for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html).

Reversed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html).

See also. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html)


I've been away from other computerized D&D games for awhile (didn't level high enough in either neverwinter nights, nor neverwinter online to see if they had it), but Dungeons and Dragons Online *did* include Otto's Sphere of Dancing, and it looks and acts exactly like a disco ball (DDO gives every monster/NPC dance moves, and some are worth casting the spell just to see. The Orthons (high level devils) head banging being one of them).

The problem with power words in OOTS is that we already know what to expect (not always what Rich draws). Holy word is just that. I'd expect "Blind", "Kill", and "Stun" to work similarly. Rich doesn't seem to like such forced jokes.

We've seen "Stun" as well. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html)

Edit: Well at least I only got half-ninja'd. (What sort of template would that be?)

[rodneyAnonymous]

To quote someone with some experience in copyright: Parody is fair use.

Sorry to "um, actually..." this but it's an important distinction: parody is protected speech (in general). Fair use (in specific) is a relatively complex legal concept and should probably not be simplified like that.

[AmewTheFox]

Personally, I wanna see Time Stop again, with a better visual effect.

That and Issac's Missile Storm(in NWN), but I imagine that won't ever happen, considering the SRD has nothing on it.

[KillingAScarab]

I've been away from other computerized D&D games for awhile (didn't level high enough in either neverwinter nights, nor neverwinter online to see if they had it), but Dungeons and Dragons Online *did* include Otto's Sphere of Dancing,Neverwinter Nights (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Spells) did not have any of Otto's spells, unless the Player's Resource Consortium or similar added some. Now, if only Vaarsuvius would go back to that small town with the illogical potion sellers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html) with the NWN version of continual flame (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Continual_flame).


That and Issac's Missile Storm(in NWN), but I imagine that won't ever happen, considering the SRD has nothing on it.Isaac's greater missile storm does look quite pretty.


Edit: Well at least I only got half-ninja'd. (What sort of template would that be?)Svirfneblin, though I guess it's not really a template, even if there's a racial class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) amongst a bunch of other articles (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) with template classes.

[Mayrax]

I'd like to see dragon's breath!

[littlebum2002]

Personally, I wanna see Time Stop again, with a better visual effect..

I mean, it's a comic strip, trying to show a spell that stops time. I don't think you're going to get much better than "everything stands still"

[Kish]

Neverwinter Nights (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Spells) did not have any of Otto's spells, unless the Player's Resource Consortium or similar added some. Now, if only Vaarsuvius would go back to that small town with the illogical potion sellers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html) with the NWN version of continual flame (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Continual_flame).
It's not just the NWN version. That's how everburning torches are created. The problem with that approach is that, well, Vaarsuvius has a much better use for all their spell slots for the forseeable future than making what's really a trivial amount of money to a sixteenth-level wizard. Unlike in NWN, things happen while you rest.

[ChillerInstinct]

I've been away from other computerized D&D games for awhile (didn't level high enough in either neverwinter nights, nor neverwinter online to see if they had it), but Dungeons and Dragons Online *did* include Otto's Sphere of Dancing, and it looks and acts exactly like a disco ball (DDO gives every monster/NPC dance moves, and some are worth casting the spell just to see. The Orthons (high level devils) head banging being one of them).

The problem with power words in OOTS is that we already know what to expect (not always what Rich draws). Holy word is just that. I'd expect "Blind", "Kill", and "Stun" to work similarly. Rich doesn't seem to like such forced jokes.

Yeah, DDO's had me enthralled for about a month and a half now. Haven't really used the dancing effects since I don't use Bard much (and my main is a Pale Master/Archmage Wizard who's about half a level shy of getting Otto's Sphere, and I've got a cleric I use when I'm playing with a couple real-life friends, so my reasons to roll a Bard are unfortunately limited), but now I'll have to look into that. It sounds HILARIOUS.



I actually completely forgot about Stun being used in-comic, if I'm being entirely honest. I had originally ignored it because I figured Stun wouldn't quite have the punch of, well, somebody going blind or falling over dead with no other visual effect. I mean, the possibilities are pretty wild. Blind could be TERRIFYING depending on how it's depicted (I mean, imagine if the victim's eyes slowly get covered in a milky white/midnight black hue as they are oh-so-aware of what's happening to them) and Kill's got some pretty amazing plot possibilities (framing the Order for murder by killing someone in broad daylight while they walk past, the aforementioned possibility Xykon having it on hand to deal with an uppity Redcloak, etc.)

Ooh, I just realized, while it's been alluded to a few times we've never actually seen Durkon conjure up some food. Could be interesting to see Heroes' Feast, if only as a one-off gag.

[AmewTheFox]

I mean, it's a comic strip, trying to show a spell that stops time. I don't think you're going to get much better than "everything stands still"

You know what is a comic and had an effect for Time Stop? Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. At least grey-scaling is all I'm asking for.

On that note, can Vaarsivius even cast it, and/or knows the spell? The times we saw them actually use it was during the soul-splice, and it was implied to came from one of the souls. Other than the early comics which said V had it, but early comics....

Or maybe some knife nut with a magic pocketwatch could be an enemy...

[KillingAScarab]

On that note, can Vaarsivius even cast it, and/or knows the spell?The answer to that question would be investigated in the Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended) topic. Currently, the answer appears to be, no, sufficient evidence has not been collected to determine that Vaarsuvius has reached 17th level in the wizard class, nor that Vaarsuvius possesses a spell book which contains time stop.

[b_jonas]

Rope trick. It's a low-level wizard spell, Vaarsuvius could use it, and it creates an extradimensional storage space.

Mage’s Magnificent Mansion. A much more powerful higher level wizard spell to create a bigger extradimensional space. We're unlikely to see this one, because it's in the Conjuration school, so Vaarsuvius can't learn it.


Heroes' Feast
That would look interesting, but it has too straightforward useful effects for a combat, so I won't choose that one.

[Mandor]

Clearly we need another occurrance of Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html).

(OK, not really gonna happen. The comic has mostly evolved beyond the silly / slapstick and is in "srs bsns" story mode at this point. But that was the first comic that incapacitated me with laughter. Particularly from Belkar's reaction to it.)

[keybounce]

I'd like to see hold portal :)

[Seto]

Horrid Wilting (stuff always gave me nightmares).

We almost got to see it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)

[bookguy]

Any of the {NAME} spells, just to see how the Giant will top Busgby. Other than that, Thunderswarm. Which is an electrical version of Meteor Swarm, and fun to unload on people with Fire Immunity.

We have seen another name spell: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html

Unless I misunderstand what you're talking about.

Edit: Someone else just mentioned this. Sorry.

[Vinyadan]

Bigby's Black Hand summons a Listener and four Speakers.

[Necris Omega]

I wanna see some epic magic that isn't just transportation and GPS jamming...

:xykon: Hey. Hey! Watch me teabag this whole village!
:redcloak: But... you don't have...
:xykon: I have one! *Casts Hellball*

[KillingAScarab]

I wanna see some epic magic that isn't just transportation and GPS jamming...Well, if epic level magic is on the table, while I do want to see how nailed to the sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm) would be portrayed, I think creativity is the larger draw. Familicide was an original spell and I think The Giant could come up with another very interesting spell.

[Reboot]

I do want to see how nailed to the sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm) would be portrayed,...

That's just "teleport into orbit". Not really much to show, per se.

[Kantaki]

That's just "teleport into orbit". Not really much to show, per se.

Sounds like a good spell to start a D&D space program.
The weight limit might be a bit low, but maybe if the construction is assembled after the teleportation...
(Okay, depending on the way the world works there are a few other spells that would be necessary, but teleporting some kind of platform into a stable orbit sounds useful)

[Oudyn]

A civil war among bad guys could use an Apocalypse From the Sky spell.

Otherwise, Hideous Laughter. And some sun-based spells.

Ooh. Apocalypse from the Sky. I've always liked that spell. It would be terrifying but extremely cool and a fitting callback to SoD to see Xykon cast it on Gobbotopia after Redcloak's betrayal.

[KillingAScarab]

That's just "teleport into orbit". Not really much to show, per se.Doesn't mean it can't be funny (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2007/06/07/episode-855-revisionist-history/).

[Reathin]

My assumption is that Redcloak won't ultimately get what he wants, at least the way he wants it. I want to see a situation where he gets well and truly desperate, with the Plan on the line, and he throws out a showstopping Miracle. The big version, with XP costs. None of that spell replication, that should never have been part of the spell. Something on a scale only exceeded by Darth V's epic spells. Not sure how it'd work, or what he'd ask for, but I'm pretty sure you can make a pretty interesting scene with direct divine attention (not the filtered sort with all the protocols, like the Moot).

[Conradine]

Well...

Eternity of Torture would be intersting.