I have concrete evidence about Elan/Nale's father [SPOILER]

[mockingbyrd7]

Many people have hypothesized that Lord Tyrinar:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html
was Elan and Nale's warlord-father:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

And I'm here to say that I think they're right. Look in strip 50 at panel 8; there is a red flag in the background. But look at the letter on the flag. It's a big yellow T!

I've seen several people debate on this before (and it's a good argument) but nobody has been able to supply evidence besides the fact that it would be a good storyline.

Does this seal the deal? Could it be some other T-dude? Would you be bummed if Elan's dad was keeping Haley's dad prisoner? Is this a good plot mechanism? Discuss.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

You're not the first to notice this, but I think that he is Tyranar.

[mockingbyrd7]

;2768177']You're not the first to notice this, but I think that he is Tyranar.

Oh, I hadn't seen it mentioned anywhere else, hehe.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

Firstly, how is that concrete evidence, especially when you yourself ask if it "seals the deal"? Secondly, all of this has been debated before numerous times, and the reason it's numerous is because people like you can't seem to find the "Search" button.

[mockingbyrd7]

Hello Guildorn, thank you for your gentle, complimentary reply, I appreciate the positive feedback ever so much. Unfortunately, my views tend to slightly diverge from yours in a couple areas:

The way I was using the word "concrete" I didn't intend it to mean "is all, be all, end all, this is the truth, there is no other", I simply meant that nobody had provided any facts from the comic before that pointed to this conclusion, simply speculation.

Secondly, I knew it had been debated, but I didn't realize anyone had mentioned the T before. :smallannoyed:

Actually, I know where the search button is, but after using the search button at AoMH:
http://aom.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=t&fn=1
I am loath to use another because they feel so inadequate. :smalltongue: (No, I'm not advertising for that site, just saying.)

I apologize if my harmless post offended you in any way, so that you had to post a reply insulting my intelligence simply because I had an idea and wanted to share my opinion and get the minds working, which is what free speech and Democracy is all about.

Oh, and by the way, I like your "Awards of the Stick" from your signature.

Good day, sir.

:yuk:

[Twilight Jack]

Well, mockingbyrd, as far as I know, you are the first person to have pointed out that particular detail. Now, I don't have On the Origin of PCs, but I wonder if Elan ever mentions being born on the western continent. If so, that's another piece of serious circumstantial evidence.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

the only time i haven't seen a topic of these being replied with "it has already been discussed" was this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5731

a safe search is always check the topic of the comic. Usually there is discussed almost everything.

[Acrux]

a safe search is always check the topic of the comic. Usually there is discussed almost everything.

Agreed. Especially if it's a detail in a panel 400 comics back!

[Green Bean]

Besides, I think the mods' policy in cases like this is that it's better to start a new thread than to dredge up old ones (old being more than a few pages back).

[TheNovak]

Yeah, what h_v said. Don't people who drag up old posts get labelled with bad names?

Mockingbird, you're the first person I've seen point that out, in the month or so I've been actively posting. Including in at least one thread about Tyrinar being Elan's dad. So good eye, man.

[the mysterian]

slight problem, nales daddy is dead, he says so, or at least implys in his first fight elan

[Twilight Jack]

slight problem, nales daddy is dead, he says so, or at least implys in his first fight elan

I don't think it's a strong enough implication to presume, though. He just says nobody denies him, and includes his father with Elan in his short list of folks who don't get a free pass by virtue of being family.

Since his father is such a powerful warlord, Nale could easily be waiting until the time is right to take his disproportionate revenge over a quasi-imagined slight. You know, fight a bunch of random encounters, maybe an adventure path or two. Then he'll go back and they'll have themselves a final tussle, Hollywood-style.

[the mysterian]

i say its enough to hint that he is dead

[Poppatomus]

In isolation I would interpret that as equal evidence of patricide as I would that the fact that Nale has become an adventurer, not a general or a king, is contrary to his father's wished. (maybe he didn't want him dating an outsider)

However, Nale also refers to his father in the past tense in 50. His father "was" the general... Unlike Elan who speaks of his mother in present tense.

I'd say that a case could be made either way, but if he were dead I would not be surprised and, based on the in story evidence rather than handwaving for cool plot purposes, you'd need to give me odds if you wanted me to bet that the father is alive. (not very low odds though, I'd take 2 to 1. )

[Ganurath]

The father of the twins definately has to be Tyrinar, as that would create dramatic tension as previously unknown connections between lovers are revealed, and caused them to become star-crossed lovers a la Romeo and Juliet on account of their respective fathers.

...What? Elan isn't the only one who can do bard things.

[Renegade Paladin]

Secondly, I knew it had been debated, but I didn't realize anyone had mentioned the T before. :smallannoyed:
Which you would have if you had used the search button. That was, after all, his entire point (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php).

[Setra]

Well I personally have never noticed this before.

On another note, after doing a quick search, and checking about half a dozen results with topics relating to Elan's parentage, I did not see this mentioned in them.

[The Extinguisher]

Tyrinar: Julio never told you about your father.
Elan: He told me enough. He told me you killed him
Tyrinar: No. I am your father.
Elan: No...That's not true! That's too cliche!
Tyrinar: Search your bardic senses! You know it to be true!

I could tottaly see this happening.

[kirbsys]

Lols. Then afterwards Nale will come up from behind and kill him, turning good. After that the superweapon will be destroyed by the OOTS Alliance, Lord Tyrinar, Julio, and Roy's Father will appear together, and there'll be some lightning spells, maybe by V.

[fwiffo]

.... but nobody has been able to supply evidence besides the fact that it would be a good storyline.

This must be a different meaning of words "good storyline" than I am familiar with. And before #448, I would vociferously argue that there is no way Giant would pull a stunt quite so cheesy. Now, I can't even argue that.

Now, if you want to start the speculation that the reason Elan's dad imprisoned Haley's dad is because Haley's dad is a specialist in roasted chicken, causing chicken farms to spring through countryside to supply his chain of restaurants; and Elan's dad hates the whole concept of chickenhood, what with being a vicious and nasty warlord - now that argument I could buy.

[mockingbyrd7]

Which you would have if you had used the search button. That was, after all, his entire point (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php).

ROFL! Wow, that video was so funny. :smallbiggrin:

Oh! Yes! Right, anyways... I regret to inform you that, like Little Billy, I did not think to use the search button before posting my new thread. However, according to the posts of some of the other forum members, the search would not have yielded a fruitful result. Also, any of the aforementioned threads that could be found by the search button would not be fresh threads (the most recent one I saw was two or so months ago, and I frequent these forums much more often than I should) and I understand that Thread Necromancy is an even more hated crime than starting a new thread.

Long story short: I wanted to start up the debate again, along with bringing what I thought was new information to the table.

Thanks for the awesome video, that was hysterical. :smallwink:

[KaiserDrac]

you do know that theres still a chance there not related there just asuming it cause the stories sound similiar they might not realy be brothers:smallamused:

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

^ Nevermind that, shaving habits aside, they're physically indentical to the point they can only be distinguished by smell and personality (which are more environmental than they are genetic). :smalltongue:

Anywho. Getting back to the original topic, has either Elan's or Nale's surname been revealed yet? I don't recall it ever being mentioned. Maybe there's a reason for that. :smallwink:

[mockingbyrd7]

^ Nevermind that, shaving habits aside, they're physically indentical to the point they can only be distinguished by smell and personality (which are more environmental than they are genetic). :smalltongue:

Anywho. Getting back to the original topic, has either Elan's or Nale's surname been revealed yet? I don't recall it ever being mentioned. Maybe there's a reason for that. :smallwink:

You mean like... Tyrinar being Lord Tyrinar's LAST name? Oooooh, nice catch!

[Wonton]

Lessee... if we look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html), we will see that everyone but V and Elan are introduced by their full name. Even Belkar, whose last name is very rarely, if ever, mentioned, gets his full name, while Elan is just "Elan the Bard".

So for all we know, it could be some trick up the giant's sleeve. :smallconfused:

[holywhippet]

The father of the twins definately has to be Tyrinar, as that would create dramatic tension as previously unknown connections between lovers are revealed, and caused them to become star-crossed lovers a la Romeo and Juliet on account of their respective fathers.

...What? Elan isn't the only one who can do bard things.

Not really Romeo and Juliet style really. Their parents forbade them from being together because their families didn't like each other. Elan and Haley are in a completely different boat. Neither persons parent knows about their relationship (Haley's mother being an uknown at this point). Elan's parents don't get along and his mother, being a goodly sort, would probably approve. Elan is very unlikely to care about his father's wishes since they are opposed by alignment.

[Gavin Sage]

I've never thought of this but it makes a lot of sense. Still pure speculation, but we have to have something to widen the eventual Haley arc. And well how many evil warlord rulers can one world have?

(Also upon reading I don't think Nale killed his father by virtue of him being an adventurer. Likely he got into a fight and is planning it, but not carried out. His comments to Elan speak more of unresolved vengance)

[Gandal]

This forum's search is annoying. :smallannoyed: I make a typing error or want to change word choice, and I have to wait for five minutes. :smallannoyed: :smallannoyed: :smallannoyed:

[Jawajoey]

FYI, "concrete evidence" suggests that you mean "proof," which evidence is not, which also your evidence is not. You have presented evidence, which is fine, but saying "concrete" evidence only leads to misunderstanding of what you're trying to say.

[Foxtale]

Geez people! Why all the hate? You've spent more posts whinging about how other people aren't following the rules than you have actually discussing the topic! Sometimes (for new people in particular) it's kind of annoying to bring up new discussions like this (for instance, the T) because of a fear that it's been discussed before and they'll get rebuked like y'all are doing right now. Good job encouraging activity.

That said, it's certainly an interesting point, and considering how nicely everything seems to fit together I wouldn't go past that actually happening. But seeing as Elan's father is the complete opposite alignment to him, I don't see a whole Romeo & Juliet thing happening with he and Haley.

[mockingbyrd7]

Geez people! Why all the hate? You've spent more posts whinging about how other people aren't following the rules than you have actually discussing the topic! Sometimes (for new people in particular) it's kind of annoying to bring up new discussions like this (for instance, the T) because of a fear that it's been discussed before and they'll get rebuked like y'all are doing right now. Good job encouraging activity.

That said, it's certainly an interesting point, and considering how nicely everything seems to fit together I wouldn't go past that actually happening. But seeing as Elan's father is the complete opposite alignment to him, I don't see a whole Romeo & Juliet thing happening with he and Haley.

(Thank you for the backup, I too don't appreciate it when fellow forumers tell others in the community how to act (telling someone to stop trolling and flaming is a different story of course) and telling them it's "wasting bandwidth" or some balogna to start a new thread, when in actuality they themselves are wasting bandwidth by using their post to say that, and furthermore, thread necromancy is even more hated. If someone three months ago mentioned something about Tyrinar being Elan/Nale's dad, am I simply supposed to let the conversation lie in the past for eternity? I KNOW you don't want me going and reviving the dead thread, ohhh noooo, but starting a new one is herecy too? I guess this topic was meant to be discussed once and only once and now must lie dead in the fiery pits of forum hell (page 4 and beyond) for all eternity. Forever and ever, amen. Wait, I'm not done. May the posts rot from the thread's reply section. May words deteriorate. May the smiley faces char and burn, may havoc be wrought upon poster's signatures, and may the thread eventually implode, blowing chunks of gooey thread everywhere.
Amen.)

[Foxtale]

So melodramatic. :smallbiggrin:

[Ancalagon]

I bet Darth Vader is the father of Elan and Nale. I mean, hell, it is just obvious, isn't it?

[Sylian]

I, for one, haven't noticed it. Look at their helmets! T-formed!

[hewhosaysfish]

Hmm... If Tyrinar was Elan and Nale's father, and Nale has killed him in a fit of "no-one denies me!"ness then there is a whole LE kingdom out there that owes it's alliegance to Nale. Of course, since he's turned his back on it to become and adventurer (and now to hound his brother) their probably all scheming, embezzling and generally playing while the cat's away. But it create 2 interesting possiblities...


1) Did anyone refer to Haley using her second name during the period when Nale was impersonating Elan? I don't think so, but if he should find out she's a Starshine, he may remember that he has her father in a dungeon. (Possibly forgotten about and left to rot there now that Tyrinar is dead. Makes you wander what he was locked up for in the first place. Well, ransom... but what was the excuse? "crimes against the goverment")

2) If anything should happen to Nale, Elan is next in line for the throne. An LE administration may not accept him... there may be a counter-coup. But a high-Charisma, CG Dashing Swordsman with Inspire Courage is ideally suited to lead repressed peasant populace against cruel oppressors! How would that be for a happy ending? King Elan and Queen Haley, crowned and married in the new High Temple (Reformed) of Banjo? Of course, this would have to fit in with the flow of the story of the gates...

Look at the panel that shows the army on the march... The ground is a sort of brownish colour; does that look desert-like to anyone? Me neither, but it would be cool if their path to Girard's Gate (or away from it) led through Tyranaria...

[mockingbyrd7]

I, for one, haven't noticed it. Look at their helmets! T-formed!

Yeah, that too. Everything points to "T", for Tyrinar. Rich likes to do clich'e (I don't know how to do the accent mark) stuff and then put his own wild twist on it, so we'll see how this may work out as a:

"Elan, I am your father!"/"Miss Starshine, you are never to see Elan again!" type story. (aka Star Wars/Romeo and Juliet)

[lonewolf23k]

Maybe the reason why Nale is out there, adventuring with the Linear Guild, is because he's plotting to betray and overthrow his father...

[Oberon]

The name of "lord Tyrinar" would presumably be passed down from generation to generation, seeing as the nation itslef is called Tyrinaria.

Therefore, if Elan's father was at one point Lord Tyrinar, and then was killed (by Nale or someone else) the title would fall on his succesor, which would be Nale.

Presumably a regent would hold the throne in his absence, but could Nale one day return and claim his right to the kingdom? And could he have ordered Haley's dad's cature in the first place?

[David Argall]

We really have very little to work with here #50, 61, & 131 are about all we have to go on, which mean we are pretty much completely at sea.
But a thought or two...


Nale as crown prince immediately brings up the question of just what he is doing as a common adventurer on another continent. Most solutions seem rather a stretch.
Nale presumably is also heading towards the Western gate and so a solution that makes him wanted for being a bad son has a weakness too. We could do the mistaken identity bit, but we already did that and so far our writer is not into recycling.
Nale refers to dad in the past tense. That does not require he be dead, but it is an easy possibility. Another possibility is that dad has been promoted or demoted.
61 gives us a suggestion that Nale-dad relations were not perfect, and that Nale did something to dad that really ruined his shot at son of the year. But this is only a hint. Dad could be merely on a to-hit list.

Now we do have two themes that seem to work together with Haley and Nale both related to Lord Tyrinar. But there are so many possibilities that you are best waiting for comic 500[600?] or so to start giving you some serious details to work with.

But to speculate...

Lord Tyrinar is indeed the father of the twins. He exiled Nale after one argument between the two and still is not welcoming him back, tho he lets the LG stay in the palace. In fact relations are bad enough that he considers giving the throne to Elan. Nale's reaction to this is murderous of course. [To complicate the picture, there should be a few other possible heirs with equally lethal intent around.]

Having had little luck in raising the gold, Haley will be trying to break her dad out of jail.

Fairly basic, but not too impossible.

[bibbob147]

Ahh Romeo and Juliet style, possibly

However, this is not "concrete"!
if people keep putting that every time they think of something that would be nice to happen the word will lose all meaning!
None of you will be able to predict what is coming if you post it on fourm!

[Miraqariftsky]

Wait one blasted second! Please correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not mean that Elan and Haley are siblings?

What's my reasoning? Haley's father is this 'Tyrinar' fellow who's in jail with a 200,000 GP bail on his head, right? Nale's---and Elan's father is the LE warlord with an army wearing Hellenic helms, right?

Then...?

[bibbob147]

...WHAT!:smallconfused:

[TheGrimace]

Ok!
here is my ploy.

I am going to make this thread even more controversial!
y'all ready for this!

Tyrinar (sp) is Elan's Father (for the sake of argument).
He has Hayley's Father locked up because Tyrinar is evil, and hayley's father is a celestial.
Which, would make Hayley a half-celestial, which I believe is another current controversy.

[shaddy_24]

In isolation I would interpret that as equal evidence of patricide as I would that the fact that Nale has become an adventurer, not a general or a king, is contrary to his father's wished. (maybe he didn't want him dating an outsider)

However, Nale also refers to his father in the past tense in 50. His father "was" the general... Unlike Elan who speaks of his mother in present tense.

I'd say that a case could be made either way, but if he were dead I would not be surprised and, based on the in story evidence rather than handwaving for cool plot purposes, you'd need to give me odds if you wanted me to bet that the father is alive. (not very low odds though, I'd take 2 to 1. )

I think it's more like Nale had an argument with him and left. He doesn't seem the type to turn his back on power. If his father died wouldn't he be next in line for power? So why did he leave to go adventuring? I think he needed that outdated army to take on his father and defeat his army. Then Nale could overthrow him and rule the land of Tyrannia! Then he got distracted with revenge against Elan.
Seems more like him than running away from power to adventure with the LG.

[BisectedBrioche]

Am I the only one who's noticed that the soldier's hemets also have a T shaped eye/mouth hole on them.

EDIT: Also, maybe Nale is after Elan because his father realised there was a reason he married a CG woman (whatever that reason maybe) and thus decided that his presumably CG son should rule after him instead of his LE son.

[mockingbyrd7]

Wait one blasted second! Please correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not mean that Elan and Haley are siblings?

What's my reasoning? Haley's father is this 'Tyrinar' fellow who's in jail with a 200,000 GP bail on his head, right? Nale's---and Elan's father is the LE warlord with an army wearing Hellenic helms, right?

Then...?

You have it a bit wrong. Haley's father is IMPRISONED by Lord Tyrinar of Tyrinaria. That means Haley's father is in jail, and the sentence was handed down by Tyrinar himself.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html

Btw, some very interesting concepts going on! I likey!

[David Demola]

Elan Tyrinar and Nale Tyrinar. Interesting.

Elan's happy ending is when he turns blackguard.

Yes, I said it.

hahaha

~Dave

[tanonev]

FYI, "concrete evidence" suggests that you mean "proof," which evidence is not, which also your evidence is not. You have presented evidence, which is fine, but saying "concrete" evidence only leads to misunderstanding of what you're trying to say.

Just as people are urging the use of the search function, I'm going to urge the use of the dictionary (http://www.answers.com/concrete&r=67). His evidence is definitely "concrete." It isn't "sufficient" or "comprehensive" or "indisputable," but "concrete" has no relation to any of those words.

[mockingbyrd7]

Just as people are urging the use of the search function, I'm going to urge the use of the dictionary (http://www.answers.com/concrete&r=67). His evidence is definitely "concrete." It isn't "sufficient" or "comprehensive" or "indisputable," but "concrete" has no relation to any of those words.

:smallbiggrin:

[The Extinguisher]

I don't see Elan/Nale's dad being dead.

Because that would leave Nale, the heir to the kingdom, as the ruler, and there is no way Nale would give up all those armies and power jsut to adventure.

I'm guessing he had a falling out with him, because daddy wouldn't let him do something. My guess, he was dating a Paladin-to-be in high school, and his father disapproved. He moved out in after a big fight at 17. Then the Paladin-to-be broke up with him.

[Bunny]

It's a big yellow T!

...and that Rhymes with P and that stands for Pool!

Mothers of Azure City, heed the warnings before it's too late! The moment your son leaves the house, does he rebuckle his knickerbockers below the knee? Are certain words creeping into his vocabulary? Words like ... swell? Well, if so, my friends, ya got Trouble!

...Ha'Hm. Anyway. I think it's a good observation of Mockingbyrd's part, and an interesting theory.

Bunny

[mockingbyrd7]

...and that Rhymes with P and that stands for Pool! Mothers of Azure City, heed the warnings before it's too late! The moment your son leaves the house, does he rebuckle his knickerbockers below the knee? Are certain words creeping into his vocabulary? Words like ... swell? Well, if so, my friends, ya got Trouble!

um... what?

lol

[Bunny]

"Ya Got Trouble" is a song from The Music Man, a musical about a con man trying to convince the residents of River City that they need to invest in a band for the local youth. Why? Because of the dangers Pool presents! Music is wholesome and pool is the first big step to the depths of Degra-Day!

What? You are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated by the presence of a pool table in your community? :smallwink: Buckle up your knickerbockers, son, and lay off the Bevo!


Bunny

[David Demola]

"Ya Got Trouble" is a song from The Music Man, a musical about a con man trying to convince the residents of River City that they need to invest in a band for the local youth. Why? Because of the dangers Pool presents! Music is wholesome and pool is the first big step to the depths of Degra-Day!

What? You are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated by the presence of a pool table in your community? :smallwink: Buckle up your knickerbockers, son, and lay off the Bevo!


Bunny

Might I add that "pool" is referring to a "billiards hall"

~Dave

[Bunny]

Might I add that "pool" is referring to a "billiards hall"

~Dave

Pockets mark the difference between and gentleman and a bum.

Bunny

[Redblade]

Ohh ohh I have a theory too!

What if Elan and the order use charisma, charm and general bardicniss to stage a coup against the evil leader of Tyrinaria. Then when they have a kingdom of once oppressed but now liberated peoples in there control they could then rally and army in the name of liberating the entire world from the possible tyranny of an evil linch. Then lead them into battle against Xykon's hobbo army leaving them free to take the big boss himself!

...Ok it doesnt sound very plausible. Even to me...

I mean I think they could overcome the fact that the previous army (who would most likely have been composed of lawful evil types) would want them out again. I mean a few diplomacy (and/or intimidate?) checks on the higher ups would probably get them in line.
Then there's the problem of getting anyone to go to war when there own city probably needs a lot of work done. Or getting any of the cities evil types (which may or may not be a lot) to go to war for someone else period. Quickly imagining Elan standing on a balcony with flags draped ether side of him and all the charisma buffs he can get addressing the people. Yeah that should do it. Although maybe have a lot of message scrolls so that Roy can whisper lines in his ear. On second thoughts have someone cast a suggestion spell on him so he doesnt deviate from the lines at all.

And while I'm sure there are a lot of other holes I haven't seen I think the biggest one is that the giant wouldn't make it that easy for them :P (Nor would Nale)