The Witch King vs Freddy Krueger

[ArlEammon]

Freddy Krueger, the demon of the night who haunts the dreams of teenagers, and slaughters them too, is invulnerable to death in the dream world. However the Witch King is no mere magic user in an Elm Street movie. He's the Witch King, and his power to fight is far beyond any of his foes, except, perhaps for Jason Vorhees. The Witch King might have powers against Freddy Krueger in the dream world, since he is after all, the Witch King, with his power over fear.

[The Glyphstone]

First off, does Freddy count as a man for the purposes of the prophecy, and can we skip the ensuing five page argument over the nuances of prophecy like last time?

[Rater202]

Classic Freddy or New Freddy? That's an important distinction when it comes to abilities.

[ArlEammon]

Classic Freddy or New Freddy? That's an important distinction when it comes to abilities.

Jason vs. Freddy Freddy. . . Freddy Ready.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think the Witch King is capable of sleeping.

[Seppl]

Even if the Witch King does sleep, he probably would not dream of himself as a scared teenager but as a powerful mage and warrior. Even if he cannot kill Freddy in the dream world it seems like Freddy would have a tough time of hurting him, too. Once the Witch King wakes up he probably knows some arcane magic that can handle a demon. Maybe something that manifests Freddy in the real world (or the shadow realm) where he can be killed; or something that can be used to kill Freddy even in the dream world. This never comes up in Tolkien's works because there are no dream demons but there are plenty of ghost- or demon-like beings in Middle Earth. The Witch King as an ancient student of lore and magic would know some way to deal with such a phenomenon.

[Hopeless]

Can we just bind Freddy to the Witch King's corpse and leave them to sort that out?

Making sure to fill the interior of the complex that holds the Witch King's tomb with blessed porridge after all I can't see molten lava working!

[Kantaki]

Can we just bind Freddy to the Witch King's corpse and leave them to sort that out?

Making sure to fill the interior of the complex that holds the Witch King's tomb with blessed porridge after all I can't see molten lava working!

Does the Witch King even have a corpse?
I always thought the Ring-Wraiths had never really died, they just faded to their current form over time because the nine rings stretched out their lfetimes.

Anyway, I think this should go to the Witch King. Freddy might qualify for the prophecy or not, but I don't see him defeating a powerful warrior-mage-spirit-entity. Not when he only has power in dreams. Especially not when his usual targets are teenagers.
The only question is if the two can even engage in any way. Has Tolkien written anything on the sleeping, and dreaming of course, habits of ring wraiths?

[Rater202]

Even if the Witch King does sleep, he probably would not dream of himself as a scared teenager but as a powerful mage and warrior.

Didn't help the wheelchair abound D&D geek who dreamed himself as "The Wizard Lord" in Dream Warriors.

It goes too ways-Freddy can't hurt you if you don't believe in him*, but you can't hurt him if he doesn't believe in you.

And Freddy doesn't believe in Fairy Tales

But if you pull him into the real world he's just a normal guy, so he probably counts as human for whatever that's worth, at least in the real world.

If witch-king dreams, Freddy wins,otherwise he either gets his ass kicked or they never get a chance to fight.

Now, if we're talking Freddy Versus Jayson Vesus Ash: Nightmare Warriors when Freddy has the Necronomicon ex Mortis and an Army of Deadites, then we've got something to talk about.

*Kinda. Depends on how many people know about, believe in, and fear him and how many souls he's captured

[Seppl]

The only question is if the two can even engage in any way. Has Tolkien written anything on the sleeping, and dreaming of course, habits of ring wraiths?He did not write about this directly but we can make an educated guess that a wraith does not need to sleep but might be able to sleep if they want to or are made to. Some evidence:
-There are things guarding Mordor that do not need to sleep. Stone statues and maybe other watchful spirits. It is not explicitly stated why they would need no sleep but we can assume it is because they do not have a biological body and are not really creatures of this world.
-Elves do not need to sleep but can just rest their minds by thinking of beautiful things. While elves are creatures of this world, they do not feel the hardship of the world the way humans and animals do.
-Elves can sleep when they want to. Maybe they even have to when they are exhausted. Legolas slept after (but not during!) the chase through Rohan. The elves in The Hobbit slept when intoxicated.
-Even Morgoth and his court could be put to magical sleep by Luthien.
-As for the rest of immortal or supernatural beings: There is not much direct discussion of the topic but overall they seem to be similar to elves.

The general rules seem to be: If you have a mortal body that body will require rest at some point, be it from exhaustion, weariness or some kind of magic effect. This rest does not need to be sleep (for example a walk through the gardens of Lórien will rest your body) but sleeping may often be the only available option. Meanwhile, your spirit does not need to sleep. While the body rests, the spirit is dreaming.

Therefore, the Witch King most probably cannot sleep, but he may chose to dream if he wants to or he could be magically compelled to do so.

[TeChameleon]

*chuckle*

I know this almost certainly isn't how it would work, but my mental image is of Freddy meeting the Witch King in the Dream World, scoffing at him 'trying too hard' with the uber-fantasy-character-schtick, and trying to force him back into his real form.

Followed by "I immediately regret my decisiooooo..!"*squish*

Otherwise, unless the Witch King of Angmar can trump the power of the Dream Demons (no real way to tell- my money's on yes, given his history, but who knows?), it's pretty much a stalemate- neither has any real way to kill the other (at least not permanently), although I doubt that Freddy would go after the Witch King more than once. Getting squashed like a bug by the superhumanly powerful undead warrior-mage doesn't sound like something he'd be eager to repeat.

[ArlEammon]

*chuckle*

I know this almost certainly isn't how it would work, but my mental image is of Freddy meeting the Witch King in the Dream World, scoffing at him 'trying too hard' with the uber-fantasy-character-schtick, and trying to force him back into his real form.

Followed by "I immediately regret my decisiooooo..!"*squish*

Otherwise, unless the Witch King of Angmar can trump the power of the Dream Demons (no real way to tell- my money's on yes, given his history, but who knows?), it's pretty much a stalemate- neither has any real way to kill the other (at least not permanently), although I doubt that Freddy would go after the Witch King more than once. Getting squashed like a bug by the superhumanly powerful undead warrior-mage doesn't sound like something he'd be eager to repeat.

Eh. The Witch King can defeat Freddy, but my concern is if it's another Freddy vs Jason where the Witch King is carrying the head during the closing credits before Freddy gives a wink at the camera.

[TeChameleon]

Eh. The Witch King can defeat Freddy, but my concern is if it's another Freddy vs Jason where the Witch King is carrying the head during the closing credits before Freddy gives a wink at the camera.

Thus my comment about 'unless the Witch King can trump the Dream Demons'- i.e. get rid of Freddy's immortality- then neither can permanently harm the other.

[Seppl]

Thus my comment about 'unless the Witch King can trump the Dream Demons'- i.e. get rid of Freddy's immortality- then neither can permanently harm the other.We know that in Middle Earth there exist abilities to deal with immortal spirits. Not to kill them (because they are immortal, after all), but to torture, enslave, or drive them mad, et cetera. Mostly employed by the villains and more or less what happened to the Witch King himself when he fell under Sauron's spell. Whether or not the Witch King himself knows such techniques is up to debate. Sauron certainly knows, but did he teach his servants? Probably not. But the Witch King might have come upon such spells during his time as a mortal mage king or during his long life as a wraith. He threatens Eowyn:

Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye
He is also very confident about his chances when confronting Gandalf the White (who is actually afraid of the Witch King). Provided that these are not empty boasts he sounds like he knows a thing or two about dealing with the supernatural or how to torture incorporeal souls.

Whether or not Freddy can be affected by such techniques is another question, he is not from Middle Earth after all. But I would stick with the usual vs-debate convention that if two magic systems work similarly they can actually influence each other. Freddy would fit right into Middle Earth as some kind of wraith. Something that can deal with a wraith in Middle Earth should be able to deal with him, too.

[Razade]

Whether or not Freddy can be affected by such techniques is another question, he is not from Middle Earth after all. But I would stick with the usual vs-debate convention that if two magic systems work similarly they can actually influence each other. Freddy would fit right into Middle Earth as some kind of wraith. Something that can deal with a wraith in Middle Earth should be able to deal with him, too.

Technically Freddy is from Middle Earth since our Earth is just the world in the Fifth Age of Arda through to I suppose...the Eighth Age of Arda if the ages kept on "quickening" as Tolkien put it.

[Seppl]

Technically Freddy is from Middle Earth since our Earth is just the world in the Fifth Age of Arda through to I suppose...the Eighth Age of Arda if the ages kept on "quickening" as Tolkien put it.
Good point. Which reminds me:

[Sauron] will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. Then, in the Fourth Age, dark cults sprang up among the youths of Gondor, worshiping the evils of old.
-> Freddy Krueger is Sauron!

:smallbiggrin: