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Arkhios
2016-03-21, 03:41 PM
MASSIVE EDIT:

Sometime in the past I made my own iteration of a warlord into 5th edition, and since I found the joy of playing around with Homebrewery (awesome tool!), I decided to put my Warlord in there.

Here's the link (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkFKKZGNe) for Homebrewery Warlord by me!
(Note, that it works best with Chrome)

My goal was to make a solid class that was balanced and worthy for the mantle of Marshal from 3e and Warlord from 4e.

Also, as a bonus I hoped the class could fill the niche for a no-spell alternative for bard, in case you play in a no-magic campaign and actual healing is scarce, providing a decent source of "martial healing", which I felt Temporary Hit Points and the ability to spend hit dice outside "short rest recovery" would be.

The class ended up quite nice where I wanted it, somewhere between bard and battle master fighter, and is now ready for playtest!

Have fun and remember to stop by and give feedback when you get some in-game experience.

I have recently uploaded the Warlord base class into DMs Guild, and if you wish to support me for the work I've done, please check out the link in my Signature.

Cheers!

UPDATE (2018-03-06):


Long time no sea.

Pet projects are never finished enough to be satisfied ...enough. I've come to admit that I've been avoiding the eventual undertaking I'm about to discuss about shortly.

First, however, I'd like to sincerely thank you all for the support and complimentary comments towards the Warlord I've wrapped up. I'm humbled.

So, thank you.

Now, onto the matter at hand.
As some of you may have noticed (doesn't have to be Einstein to do that, to be honest), the Stratagems I have listed for the Warlord in its current state, are pretty much exact copies from Battle Master Fighter's Combat Maneuvers. I'd like to remedy that, and make them more unique to the Warlord. This means I will have to cut out some of them, and likewise, I may have to create completely new ones instead, where necessary. As of now, I have come up with only one change, but I'd still like to hear what you think about the change and direction of the undertaking.

Here's an updated version of:

Commander's Strike: When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo up to two of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct your companions to strike. When you do so, choose a number of friendly creatures who can see or hear you equal to the number of attacks you forgoed. A chosen creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding your Strategic Acumen modifier to the attack's damage roll.

Note: I am aware that this change has consequences all over the Warlord and I am prepared to make changes accordingly.

Arkhios
2016-03-22, 10:48 AM
I've come up with most of the stuff I figured could be seen as part of the Warlord chassis, a few things missing, basically something for 13th and 14th levels, and fleshing out archetypes, which I'll tackle on next occasion.

In the meanwhile I'd appreciate some feedback on whether I'm on the right track, or if something needs to change or go.
If you played 4th edition, you might've noticed already, that many features are taken from there, while adding a bit of my own ideas.

Oramac
2016-03-22, 12:28 PM
I like what you have so far, but I wouldn't call it a Warlord.

When I think of a warlord, I think of either a) a guy threatening to kill his own guys if they don't do what he wants, or b) a guy who is the epitome of battlefield control.

If it wasn't already taken, I'd call your class a Battlemaster. But since that is taken, maybe "Battle-Leader"? Or just "Leader"?

Arkhios
2016-03-22, 12:53 PM
I like what you have so far, but I wouldn't call it a Warlord.

When I think of a warlord, I think of either a) a guy threatening to kill his own guys if they don't do what he wants, or b) a guy who is the epitome of battlefield control.

If it wasn't already taken, I'd call your class a Battlemaster. But since that is taken, maybe "Battle-Leader"? Or just "Leader"?

The reason why it's called Warlord is actually because in 4th edition the class was, to my understanding, very popular. I can relate, because my first 4th edition character was an Eladrin Warlord, and it was pretty fun to play. In another thread there was some demands of re-creating that exact class, so I did my best, drawing concept from 4th edition PhB, and added some "martial healing" as they were exactly that, a martial class with the role of a healer. Bolstering troops' morale by shouting commands and invigorating them. Which is what I relate to being a warlord. Giving orders and keeping the troops up and going. :)

Though, I suppose the class name could change. I'll think about it. (Maybe Marshal, from 3.5, would fit better?)

Edit: Actually, those different approaches on controlling their troops could be archetypal differences. Maybe I'll use that further!

Oramac
2016-03-22, 03:49 PM
I see. I never played 4e, so I guess I missed the boat on that one.


Actually, those different approaches on controlling their troops could be archetypal differences. Maybe I'll use that further!

That would be really cool! And give it a bit more flavor and variance.

I think Marshall would be a better name too, but if it's a re-building of a previous class it's probably better to keep the old name.

Arkhios
2016-03-24, 04:10 PM
Updated Original post with an additional feature called Logistics (and Advanced Logistics).

Also, I'm currently working on the archetypes (Tactician and Vanguard).

Any feedback about them would be appreciated.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-25, 04:32 PM
I also never played 4e and know nothing about the Warlord as defined in that edition. At a glance, I'm wondering why this can't be a martial archetype. You could base it on the Battlemaster, but have it giving orders instead of performing manoeuvres. It'd be elegant and easy to balance, plus you could integrate it with the existing Martial Adept feat to give anyone a chance to throw a few orders.

Arkhios
2016-03-27, 02:13 AM
While I agree that a Warlord could be implemented as a Fighter's Subclass, there are a few things that doesn't fit. First of all, neither the 3.5 Marshal nor 4th Edition Warlord were equally skilled in battle like a Fighter, thus only 2 attacks with Attack action seems more appropriate. Secondly, a Fighter's prowess lies in their *own* battle-efficiency while a Warlord's essence is to empower his allies through their actions, which I find appropriate to do with providing a buffer of Temporary Hit Points throughout the course of battle.

If we forget the martial archetype possibility, what do you think about the overall picture of Warlord I've painted? Is it balanced? Would you like to play one? Anything?

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-27, 07:37 AM
Warlord

Hit Die: d10
Saving Throw Proficiency: Wisdom, Charisma
Armor and Weapon Proficiency: light, medium, and heavy armor. All simple and martial weapons.
Skill proficiency: two from the list (Athletics, Animal Handling, Deception, History, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion)

lvl 1: Combat Leader (You and all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear you gain a +2 bonus to Initiative, as long as you're not dead or unconscious)

All fine.


lvl 1: Inspiring Words (You learn the following Inspiring Words. As a bonus action, you can inspire a number of allies up to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) within 30 feet. You and any allies of your choice are under the effect of one Inspiring Word of your choice.
You can use this feature a number of times as shown on the class table before you must finish a short rest (Inspiring Words are work-in-progress; any suggestions welcome)

* Inspiring Word - Battle Cry (The ally gains advantage on his or her next attack roll made before the start of your next turn)
* Inspiring Word - Hero's Defiance (The ally ends an effect affecting him that would end on a successful saving throw.)
* Inspiring Word - Invigorate (The ally gains temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier. They last for 1 minute or until expended.)
* Inspiring Word - Skill Surge (The ally gains advantage on his or her next skill check made within 10 minutes.)

I feel like the 'advantage' ones are kind of weak compared to the other two. 'THP for everyone' severely changes the tactical situation, and ending effects on everyone shuts down a lot of powerful abilities (like Hold Person). You have to be careful with how many uses of those you allow, which suddenly makes the 'mass Help' ones look like a waste of resources.

Also, something called "battle cry" should definitely increase damage output. Maybe roll the 'Help' ones together and change the Battle Cry to be more like 'everyone gets +2 to damage for the round'.


lvl 3: Warlord's Banner (You raise your banner as an action, and each ally who can see your banner within range of 30 feet can use their reaction to spend up to one-quarter of their total hit dice (rounded up), and gain temporary hit points equal to the result. You can use this feature once, after which you must finish a short rest to use it again. At 7th level you can use it twice before taking a short rest. At 13th level you can use it three times before taking a short rest. At 19th level you can use it four times before taking a short rest)

I take it you need a free hand to do this? That could get tricky to juggle. Does it work on hirelings? Logically and legalistically I'd say 'yes', but if so, that's very abusable for a low-level ability.

Also, 4 uses per long rest feels like too many; given that it'll take a few rounds to wear away all the THP, 4/SR is almost equivalent to 'at-will'. And your allies would get sick of the sight of that banner! I'd keep it at once/short rest until high levels, when you get 2 uses (like Action Surge).


lvl 3: Logistics (After a long rest, you and your allies regain one additional Hit Die. If they don't have any missing Hit Dice, each one gain one temporary Hit Die which can be spent like normal hit dice, but it doesn't increase your hit point maximum. At 13th level, you and your allies regain two additional Hit Dice instead, and if they don't have any missing Hit Dice, they instead gain two temporary Hit Dice. The temporary Hit Dice last until you and your allies finish a short rest.)

lvl 5: Extra Attack (When you take the Attack action, you may attack twice on your turn.)

lvl 10: Inspiring Defense (When an ally you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack, you can allow your ally use his or her reaction to reduce the damage taken by an amount equal to his or her Hit Die. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier before you must finish a long rest to regain all uses.)

lvl 18: Rallying Cry (When you use your Warlord's Banner, you and each ally that can hear you and see your banner may add your Charisma modifier to the roll.)

lvl 20: Unyielding Company (While you have at least 1 hit point, allies within 30 feet of you do not fall unconscious at 0 hit points and further damage doesn't accumulate as a failed death saving throw. Allies at 0 hit points otherwise make death saving throws as normal, and they can die as a result of failed death saving throws. Allies may benefit from this feature once before they must finish a long rest to do so again.)

These all look good. The capstone is nice - it's like 'arrr, we will fight through death itself for you, great leader!'



ARCHETYPES (WIP)

Tactician

(Leadership through battlefield control)
lvl 2: Tactical Presence (Once before the start of your next turn, when an ally makes an attack, you can grant that ally a bonus to his or her attack roll equal to your Charisma modifier.)

lvl 2: Tactician Styles (A Tactician chooses his or her fighting style from the following list: Archery, Defense, Dueling, or Mariner)

lvl 6: Inspiring Word - Tactician's Advice (The ally can move half of his or her base land speed as a reaction which doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.)

lvl 11: Tactician's Command (When you take the Attack action, one friendly creature within 30 feet of you may use its reaction to move up to its speed and make an attack as part of the reaction. The movement provokes opportunity attacks as normal, and the attack uses your Charisma modifier instead of its normal modifier.)

lvl 15: Tactical Edge (In addition to bonus action, you can now use any Inspiring Word you know also as a reaction. They still count towards your normal limit.)

For an at-will ability, Tactical Presence is very strong. I think it should at least cost a reaction and maybe have a usage limit. The devotion paladin's Sacred Weapon confers a similar bonus, and that turns deadly encounters into pushovers; I would not be happy with the possibility of someone getting that bonus every single round they play.

And it should have a range limit. As is, you could Scry someone on the other side of the world, declare that they are your ally and zing! Suddenly they hit everything they swing at!

Tactician's Advice is good. That's on par with the better Inspiring Words.

Tactician's Command at-will is also too powerful for my liking. I'd make that once/short rest.

Tactical Edge is fine.



Vanguard

(Leadership through example)
lvl 2: Commanding Presence (Once on your turn, when you hit with a weapon attack, one ally of your choice can make an attack as a reaction, and may add your Charisma modifier to the attack roll.)

lvl 2: Vanguard Styles (A Vanguard chooses his or her fighting style from the following list: Defense, Great Weapon Fighting, Mariner, or Two-Weapon Fighting)

lvl 6: Inspiring Word - Exemplar's Strike (When you hit with a weapon attack, you can use an Inspiring Word as a reaction to let any ally that makes an attack against the same target before the start of your next turn to re-roll its damage roll and use either result.)

lvl 11: Vanguard's Advance (As a Bonus Action before you take the Attack action you may move up to your speed.
Additionally, if you hit with at least one weapon attack on your turn, allies within 30 feet that can see you may add your Charisma modifier to their damage rolls until the start of your next turn.)

lvl 15: Vanguard's Stance (Once before short rest, as a Bonus Action you may enter Vanguard's Stance for 1 minute. While in this stance, your opportunity attacks have a critical range of 19-20, and when you hit a target with an opportunity attack, you may end the stance to grant you or one ally next to the target a number of temporary hit points equal to half the weapon damage you dealt.)

Commanding Presence is also strong but possibly ok... needs playtesting to be sure. Actually, it might work better as an 11th-level ability; it's about equivalent to the paladin's Improved Divine Smite in power.

Exemplar's strike is confusingly worded, and it feels wrong to be spending reactions on your own turn. And why does it cause damage to be re-rolled? The name evokes the same sort of thing sports commentators mean when they say "he's played captain's innings" or "that was a real captain's goal".

Vanguard's Advance is fine, and I'd be happy to move that to 2nd level if Commanding Presence was pushed back.

Vanguard's Stance... the first part is fine, but where do the temporary hit points come from, fluff-wise? I don't really understand it.

Arkhios
2016-03-27, 11:22 AM
General features


All fine.
Great. If the first part would've been bad, I would've felt embarrassed beyond words :P


I feel like the 'advantage' ones are kind of weak compared to the other two. 'THP for everyone' severely changes the tactical situation, and ending effects on everyone shuts down a lot of powerful abilities (like Hold Person). You have to be careful with how many uses of those you allow, which suddenly makes the 'mass Help' ones look like a waste of resources.
I was worried that the Inspiring Words would be just that, out-of-balance, and I agree, the advantages were kind of uninspired options from my part :P I might actually just combine Battle Cry and Skill Surge together, as you suggested. The others are more like what I originally envisioned them to be.
Also, the actual amount of how many can be used is still very much in flux, any suggestions are absorbed into my think-tank :)


Also, something called "battle cry" should definitely increase damage output. Maybe roll the 'Help' ones together and change the Battle Cry to be more like 'everyone gets +2 to damage for the round'.
Yeah, I agree, currently Battle Cry feels a bit underwhelming.



I take it you need a free hand to do this? That could get tricky to juggle. Does it work on hirelings? Logically and legalistically I'd say 'yes', but if so, that's very abusable for a low-level ability.
One free hand, yes, or you could wrap a banner on a polearm instead of a separate stick.
I had intended this to work for everyone, but I suppose it shouldn't be too bad if NPC hirelings could only get the "fluff" part of it.


Also, 4 uses per long rest feels like too many; given that it'll take a few rounds to wear away all the THP, 4/SR is almost equivalent to 'at-will'. And your allies would get sick of the sight of that banner! I'd keep it at once/short rest until high levels, when you get 2 uses (like Action Surge).
I aimed for something between a cantrip and channel divinity; will have to look at it a bit further.



These all look good. The capstone is nice - it's like 'arrr, we will fight through death itself for you, great leader!'
I must say, I was more worried those would raise more concerns overall :P



Tactician

For an at-will ability, Tactical Presence is very strong. I think it should at least cost a reaction and maybe have a usage limit. The devotion paladin's Sacred Weapon confers a similar bonus, and that turns deadly encounters into pushovers; I would not be happy with the possibility of someone getting that bonus every single round they play.
Hmm, you're right. Although it's only one per each turn and lasts until the start of Warlord's next turn, being limitless might indeed be a little too much. Maybe tying it to Inspiring Words' usage would fix it?


And it should have a range limit. As is, you could Scry someone on the other side of the world, declare that they are your ally and zing! Suddenly they hit everything they swing at!
Good catch. I thought about 30 feet range, but forgot to add it.


Tactician's Advice is good. That's on par with the better Inspiring Words.
"If something bad happens, something good will come of it", as they say. Thanks :)


Tactician's Command at-will is also too powerful for my liking. I'd make that once/short rest.
Duly noted. I'll make the OP reflect that change shortly.


Tactical Edge is fine.
Yay! Absolutely my favorite feature when I was designing the archetype :D



Vanguard

Commanding Presence is also strong but possibly ok... needs playtesting to be sure. Actually, it might work better as an 11th-level ability; it's about equivalent to the paladin's Improved Divine Smite in power.
Technically I aimed for something equal with Tactical Presence (as Warlord's Presence being a "thing" at Warlord 2nd-level, which all archetypes would get at that level). I'll consider the swap though.


Exemplar's strike is confusingly worded, and it feels wrong to be spending reactions on your own turn. And why does it cause damage to be re-rolled? The name evokes the same sort of thing sport's commentators mean when they say "he's played captain's innings" or "that was a real captain's goal".
I must admit I was running out of ideas when I came up with these last few features for Vanguard. It does indeed feel a bit fiddly. Might have to re-design something different here.


Vanguard's Advance is fine, and I'd be happy to move that to 2nd level if Commanding Presence was pushed back.
As above, I'll consider the swap. Or maybe I'll just swap the contents and re-word both a bit, to fit their respective slots better.


Vanguard's Stance... the first part is fine, but where do the temporary hit points come from, fluff-wise? I don't really understand it.
I thought it might need some explanation further. Again, I was running low on inspirational energy when I wrote it, but what I intended was something like a re-invigorating burst of confidence due to striking true, or something. The thing that I used THP as a whole for was meant to exemplify that very increase in morale. Like: You might be running soaked in your own blood (low on actual hit points), but somehow the warlord in your group manages to draw tenacity out of you nevertheless (adding a buffer of THP on top of your low HP).

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-27, 12:23 PM
Also, the actual amount of how many can be used is still very much in flux, any suggestions are absorbed into my think-tank :)

Having read it all now, I'd say the number of Words should follow the same progression as Warlock spell slots. That will require the player to show some forethought in how they use them. There's so many abilities going on that you'll probably be able to use one of them 1 turn out of 3 most of the time, which is about where you want to be as a character with Extra Attack. Most of the time, you're fighting like a monk, ranger or paladin, but sometimes you throw out something special (as they would with smites, ranger spells and ki abilities).

Arkhios
2016-03-27, 06:07 PM
Having read it all now, I'd say the number of Words should follow the same progression as Warlock spell slots. That will require the player to show some forethought in how they use them. There's so many abilities going on that you'll probably be able to use one of them 1 turn out of 3 most of the time, which is about where you want to be as a character with Extra Attack. Most of the time, you're fighting like a monk, ranger or paladin, but sometimes you throw out something special (as they would with smites, ranger spells and ki abilities).

As you can see from the code/class table, Inspiring Words were following that Warlock spell slots progression already. It seemed better than tying it somehow to your charisma modifier instead.
"Fighting like a monk, ranger, or paladin, and then some special" was exactly what I hoped to achieve.

PS. I added the fighter feature Indomitable for Warlord at the empty level 9, increasing to two uses at 17th level (leaving the Warlord one step behind Fighter in this.) Should I "Take or Toss" this, what do you think?
PPS. Also, check out the rest of the responses :)

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-27, 06:17 PM
As you can see from the code/class table, Inspiring Words were following that Warlock spell slots progression already.

Clearly I failed my perception check there... When I looked at the table before, I didn't see any Inspiring Words progression at all. :smallfrown:

Arkhios
2016-03-27, 06:22 PM
Clearly I failed my perception check there... When I looked at the table before, I didn't see any Inspiring Words progression at all. :smallfrown:

At least you can find some comfort in that "great minds think alike", right? :smalltongue:

Arkhios
2016-03-31, 01:36 PM
After awesome feedback, I'm ready to declare that Warlord Homebrew is ready for playtest, should someone wish to try it.
Of course, any playtest feedback would be appreciated, as always.

Thanks again to all who have helped me through the process by balancing the class features, or giving new ideas.

I'm open to suggestions if the current two Archetypes are not enough for your needs.

Spacehamster
2016-06-25, 05:00 AM
Thought about adding a more primitive civilization type warlord as a subclass? Could be fun. :)

Arkhios
2016-06-25, 05:52 AM
Thought about adding a more primitive civilization type warlord as a subclass? Could be fun. :)

Not bad idea, I'll think about it :)

Sort of like a tribal warchief? Might even have a limited rage, like a barbarian.

Spacehamster
2016-06-25, 08:18 AM
Not bad idea, I'll think about it :)

Sort of like a tribal warchief? Might even have a limited rage, like a barbarian.

Yeah something like that, limited rage, and while in the furious rage he inspires his allies.
Basically a smarter "brute" with decent tactical knowledge but not as much as a true commander with a military education would have.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-06-25, 08:48 AM
If we're suggesting new archetypes, how about one that overawes enemies? I've been playing Dynasty Warriors recently, so if you're familair with that story, a comparison might help...

So, I see you 'tactician' as being like the 'strategist' types (Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi) and your 'vanguard' as being more like the great warriors (Guan Yu, Xiahou Dun). What's missing are the great leaders; people like Liu Bei and Cao Cao. I'm not exactly sure how you'd represent them in D&D; their main skills seem to be in surrounding themselves with competent allies and inspiring them with pure Charisma (which is already part of your base class). That's why I was thinking of giving them abilities that diminish their foes - their reputations are just so fearsome that other people simply don't believe they can beat them?

Also, what about a 1/3-caster in the mould of Pang Tong?

R.Shackleford
2016-06-25, 10:35 PM
I also never played 4e and know nothing about the Warlord as defined in that edition. At a glance, I'm wondering why this can't be a martial archetype. You could base it on the Battlemaster, but have it giving orders instead of performing manoeuvres. It'd be elegant and easy to balance, plus you could integrate it with the existing Martial Adept feat to give anyone a chance to throw a few orders.

Mostly because the core Fighter, without archetype, just doesn't stack up to other classes without their archetype.

The Fighter relies too much on its subclass to give it stuff. However because the Fighter is designed differently than other martials (more attacks instead of just 1 extra attack) creating a subclass that is balanced, has enough substance, and works with multiclassing... It is actually easier to make a base class.

Weirdly enough.

Of the core Fighter was designed consistent with the rest of the game making a good archetype would work.

I mean... Look at the Purple Dragon Knight or whatever it's called... I mean... Ouch...

Arkhios
2016-06-27, 12:01 AM
If we're suggesting new archetypes, how about one that overawes enemies? I've been playing Dynasty Warriors recently, so if you're familair with that story, a comparison might help...

So, I see you 'tactician' as being like the 'strategist' types (Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi) and your 'vanguard' as being more like the great warriors (Guan Yu, Xiahou Dun). What's missing are the great leaders; people like Liu Bei and Cao Cao. I'm not exactly sure how you'd represent them in D&D; their main skills seem to be in surrounding themselves with competent allies and inspiring them with pure Charisma (which is already part of your base class). That's why I was thinking of giving them abilities that diminish their foes - their reputations are just so fearsome that other people simply don't believe they can beat them?

Also, what about a 1/3-caster in the mould of Pang Tong?

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Dynasty Warriors, although I do know the game.
I thought about your ideas, and after a friend requested if I could make three sub-classes loosely based on the three Charisma skills: The crafty strategist (Deception), the hard-ass tyrant (Intimidate), and the inspiring leader (Persuasion), I had an idea.

Maybe, if I renamed Tactician as Strategist (deception), aligning their abilities more to the deceptive tactics, gave Vanguard (persuasion) an Inspiring Presence instead of Commanding Presence, and finally made a third sub-class which would be a awe and fear inciting, perhaps raging, warchief (intimidation), then how would you like the direction?

Also, I'm slightly tempted at designing the 1/3-caster, but which spell list would it use? Probably one of the arcane, because I don't really see the warlord as a devout man of god (though I understand someone might still). Maybe bard's list as a kind of middle-ground?

Additionally, by request, I decided to add a feature called Stratagem, similar to Battle Masters Maneuvers, and remove Indomitable (let's not step on the fighters' toes; let them have their moments to shine).
I don't have a list ready yet, but I imagined they could use Inspiring Words as their "fuel", expending one per use.

Arkhios
2016-12-18, 08:17 AM
Bump, because Homebrewery is such fun (check out the first post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482261-PEACH-Warlord&p=21504384))! (plus, I'd like to get some help with desigining the Stratagems)

Currently, I'm toying around with the Battle Master's maneuvers, replacing a superiority die roll with a Warlord's Charisma modifier. I think that it's comparably weaker than a Superiority Die (which increases to d12 eventually and when adding to damage rolls, the superiority die can be multiplied on a critical hit, while a flat bonus isn't), but at the same time, it's more robust in the long run.

Commander's Strike. When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct one of your companions to strike. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you and expend one Inspiring Word. That creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding your Charisma modifier to the attack's damage roll.

Distracting Strike. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one Inspiring Word to distract the creature, giving your allies an opening. You add your Charisma modifier to the attack's damage roll. The next attack roll against the target by an attacker other than you has advantage if the attack is made before the start of your next turn.

Goading Attack. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one Inspiring Word to attempt to goad the target into attacking you. You add your Charisma modifier to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target has disadvantage on all attack rolls against targets other than you until the end of your next turn.

Lunging Attack. When you make a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can expend one Inspiring Word to increase your reach for that attack by 5 feet. If you hit, you add your Charisma modifier to the attack's damage roll.

Maneuvering Attack. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one Inspiring Word to maneuver one of your comrades into a more advantageous position. You add your Charisma modifier to the attack's damage roll, and you choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you. That creature can use its reaction to move up to half its speed without provoking opportunity attacks from the target of your attack.

Pushing Attack. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one Inspiring Word to attempt to drive the target back. You add your Charisma modifier to the attack's damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you push the target up to 15 feet away from you.

Trip Attack. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one Inspiring Word to attempt to knock the target down. You add your Charisma modifier to the attack's damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you knock the target prone.

I'm also thinking I might change the Vanguard's unique Inspiring Word with something that's derived from the Rally Maneuver, but since Inspiring Word - Morale Lift already has a very similar effect, I was thinking this one could affect only one target with twice or thrice as great effect.

Vanguard's Inspiring Word - Battle Cry. At 7th level, you learn the Inspiring Word - Battle Cry. On your turn, you can use a bonus action and expend one Inspiring Word to bolster the resolve on one of your companions. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you. That creature gains temporary hit points equal to two/three(?) times your Charisma modifier.

Llama513
2016-12-18, 06:43 PM
I really like the idea of the class and think that using the battle master maneuvers is a really good idea, and with how much else you can do with the class I think using something besides the normal superiority dice is a good idea, but I feel that just having it be adding your charisma modifier is to consistently good and only sits one below the average on a d12, I would recommend either having it just be a d6 or a d8, and not having it increase in size

Arkhios
2016-12-18, 07:20 PM
I really like the idea of the class and think that using the battle master maneuvers is a really good idea, and with how much else you can do with the class I think using something besides the normal superiority dice is a good idea, but I feel that just having it be adding your charisma modifier is to consistently good and only sits one below the average on a d12, I would recommend either having it just be a d6 or a d8, and not having it increase in size

It's just that I intended for stratagems to expand from Inspiring Words and they don't use a die roll, so it might seem a bit out of place to suddenly call for a die roll with these. I honestly think that having a flat bonus is better for consistency - and it lets the fighter keep their certain edge as being the heavy-hitters. :smallbiggrin:

Check out how I ended up working the Stratagem feature and let me know what you think of it.

Llama513
2016-12-18, 07:24 PM
I like that system, using that I think the CHA mod is fine

Unrelated the pdf is not quite lined right, I'm not sure if its just me or it is not aligned properly

Arkhios
2016-12-18, 07:34 PM
I like that system, using that I think the CHA mod is fine

Unrelated the pdf is not quite lined right, I'm not sure if its just me or it is not aligned properly

Yeah, there are some odd cases when the lines just get effed up for some reason or the other. I've been trying to fix them as soon as I notice them.

Another possibility is that if you're using a browser other than Chrome, because Homebrewery works best with Chrome.

Thanks though.

Llama513
2016-12-18, 07:36 PM
I'm in Chrome, at the moment, I'm going to refresh it and see if it fixes it.

That worked, so if you changed it that worked or it was just acting weird

Outliar
2016-12-18, 08:05 PM
I'm no expert on homebrewing but I figured I'd say some stuff anyway

Hit Points, Proficiencies, Equipment
Seems fine to me. Probably okay but since this seems like a support class to me I would have given it a lower hit die than a fighter (d8 probably), but I don't think its a big deal. Also under equipment it should probably say leather armour instead of just leather.

Combat Leader
This is cool, maybe incapacitated as a limit instead of dead or unconscious or can paralysed warlords still inspire their allies?

Inspiring Words
This works I think, the wording seems a bit clumsy but it is still understandable. Personally I think there should be more options but I can't think of any and I think it works as is.

Warlord's Banner
Works fine (except martial healing is weird flavour wise but basing it on hit dice is probably a good idea)

Logistics
Works fine

Extra Attack
Works fine

Okay before we start the next page I'd just like to mention that while the features were fine none of them (except stratagem) specified what level you get them at which all the features on the previous page did.

Stalwart
This is fine I think except that it has a rather small range compared to the other ranges you had for other things and it doesn't rely on people being able to see or hear you like other features. Also fear isn't a thing in 5e I don't think, just use being frightened.

Stratagem
I'm not going to comment on all of these but I will say that getting these (which seem like the major features of the class) at 9th level seems a little late to me, also some of them mention saving throws but you haven't specified what the save DC is.

Inspiring Defence
This really confused me, what do you mean by hit die? Number of hit die (so level)? Average roll on 1 hit die? Highest roll on a hit die? Highest roll on a hit die times number of hit die? Also some of the wording isn't really the same as how 5e usually words stuff (his or her instead of their, for example).

Rallying Cry
This works I think

Unyielding Company
I think that this should work but it seems strange that just with leadership or whatever you can literally make allies immune to absolutely anything (but strangely only when they are dying), also it doesn't have the limit of only being able to see or hear you.

Warlord Training
This post is already too long, maybe I'll talk about these later.

Anyway as I said before I'm no expert in homebrewing so feel free to ignore all of this.

Arkhios
2016-12-18, 08:34 PM
I'm no expert on homebrewing but I figured I'd say some stuff anyway

Hit Points, Proficiencies, Equipment
Seems fine to me. Probably okay but since this seems like a support class to me I would have given it a lower hit die than a fighter (d8 probably), but I don't think its a big deal. Also under equipment it should probably say leather armour instead of just leather.

Combat Leader
This is cool, maybe incapacitated as a limit instead of dead or unconscious or can paralysed warlords still inspire their allies?

Inspiring Words
This works I think, the wording seems a bit clumsy but it is still understandable. Personally I think there should be more options but I can't think of any and I think it works as is.

Warlord's Banner
Works fine (except martial healing is weird flavour wise but basing it on hit dice is probably a good idea)

Logistics
Works fine

Extra Attack
Works fine

Okay before we start the next page I'd just like to mention that while the features were fine none of them (except stratagem) specified what level you get them at which all the features on the previous page did.

Stalwart
This is fine I think except that it has a rather small range compared to the other ranges you had for other things and it doesn't rely on people being able to see or hear you like other features. Also fear isn't a thing in 5e I don't think, just use being frightened.

Stratagem
I'm not going to comment on all of these but I will say that getting these (which seem like the major features of the class) at 9th level seems a little late to me, also some of them mention saving throws but you haven't specified what the save DC is.

Inspiring Defence
This really confused me, what do you mean by hit die? Number of hit die (so level)? Average roll on 1 hit die? Highest roll on a hit die? Highest roll on a hit die times number of hit die? Also some of the wording isn't really the same as how 5e usually words stuff (his or her instead of their, for example).

Rallying Cry
This works I think

Unyielding Company
I think that this should work but it seems strange that just with leadership or whatever you can literally make allies immune to absolutely anything (but strangely only when they are dying), also it doesn't have the limit of only being able to see or hear you.

Warlord Training
This post is already too long, maybe I'll talk about these later.

Anyway as I said before I'm no expert in homebrewing so feel free to ignore all of this.

Thank you for your rundown of the features. I have no habit of ignoring any feedback; everything you said is appreciated.

A few points from what you mentioned:

Yeah, I actually forgot to put the levels at which each features come, I'll fix that later though - it's getting late and I should probably sleep too. :smalltongue:

Martial healing is one of the reasons why I wanted to make this class work in 5th edition. It's probably true that the class is weighted towards being a support class, but on the other hand it's also based on a paladin chassis, so I think a d10 HD is fine as is. And since they can't really use Inspiring Words every round in combat, I would imagine they are more likely to attack most of the time.

Incapacitated might indeed be better for the Combat Leader's restriction. I'll change that when I can.

Stalwart comes live at 6th level, and it's basically an aura of resistance against fear - and psychic damage. A paladin's aura's also have a 10 ft. radius until 18th paladin level. Since Stalwart is always active I should think that the radius is fine as it is. I could have it improve at a later level though. Now that I think of it, Combat Leader could also start at 10 feet radius, and improve at a same rate as Stalwart.

Stratagems were initially meant to fill "dead levels" at 9th, 13th, and 17th level as a Warlord wouldn't otherwise get anything new at those levels, and every class is designed so that they get at least something (beyond just more hit points) at every level, but I can see they might feel a bit late addition to the class. I might look into that too, later.
As for the Saving Throw DC, I fixed that just recently (and dropped a few more options because they didn't feel right).

Inspiring Defense is intended to allow a companion to roll a die equal to their class hit die (not expend their hit dice, just roll a die that's equal to that). So a cleric would roll a d8, a wizard would roll a d6, a ranger would roll a d10, and a barbarian would roll a d12. I suppose I could try to word it out a bit more clearly.

Unyielding Company is a 20th level feature for a reason, because at that point, heroes become legendary, and they can do epic things. I guess it could have a range limit, but I'm unsure as to how far.

Llama513
2016-12-18, 09:24 PM
I like the Idea behind Unyielding Company, I would However allow for damage to cause death saving throws, What I would turn this into is that they are in the state for 1 minute, at which point they either fall unconscious or die, depending on how many death saving throws they have left, that is how I would do it if you want it to be without a range, with a range of 30 feet I would think that you could have the death saves not affected by damage, but keep the 1 minute time, my thought being there is only so long that someone can keep fighting before the body finally gives out

Sorry about the late post for you

Arkhios
2016-12-19, 08:26 AM
Made some updates to the file:
- class levels for each features
- an attempt to clarify/simplify Inspiring Defense
- decided to give access to stratagems starting as early as from 5th level, since they are quite relevant to the class role, and added menacing strike.
- Combat Leader and Stalwart now start with 10 feet radius, and both improve at 18th level, with Stalwart slightly more.
- Unyielding Company now has a 60 foot radius, can affect up to 10 allies, and lasts for 1 minute for each ally individually.

Plus, since the class table keeps acting up, it has a whole page for itself now. Hopefully it's satisfied now! XD

Llama513
2016-12-19, 01:55 PM
The table looks great, the image of the guy with the bow, is blocking some text though, so that needs to be made a little bit smaller so that you can read the ability

Arkhios
2016-12-19, 02:50 PM
The table looks great, the image of the guy with the bow, is blocking some text though, so that needs to be made a little bit smaller so that you can read the ability

Doesn't look like that to me. Weird.

Llama513
2016-12-19, 02:52 PM
I've looked back at it, and I can make out the text, I don't know what was going on the image seemed way darker earlier, who knows

Arkhios
2016-12-21, 07:13 AM
Recently I've been thinking of tackling the one concept that is long since overdue: "Leadership through fear"; A kind of a brutal, barbaric, or even tyrannical subclass, while the two existing subclasses can be categorized as the civilized and inspiring (tactician), or exemplary and courageous (vanguard).

I could use help in fleshing out the class features, which would need to be along these lines:

Warlord's Presence: 2nd level opening feature that's ideally always active, and grants an effect to people around you.

Unique Inspiring Word: 7th level feature, that grants an inspiring word that no other subclass can have.

Combat prowess improvement: 11th level feature, which improves your combat effectiveness (something along the lines of 2nd Extra Attack, Improved Divine Smite, Volley, Whirlwind Attack, etc.)

An edgy feature: 15th level feature, which makes you stand out from the rest of your kind, possibly altering or improving an existing core ability.

Llama513
2016-12-23, 06:04 PM
Recently I've been thinking of tackling the one concept that is long since overdue: "Leadership through fear"; A kind of a brutal, barbaric, or even tyrannical subclass, while the two existing subclasses can be categorized as the civilized and inspiring (tactician), or exemplary and courageous (vanguard).

I could use help in fleshing out the class features, which would need to be along these lines:

Warlord's Presence: 2nd level opening feature that's ideally always active, and grants an effect to people around you.

Unique Inspiring Word: 7th level feature, that grants an inspiring word that no other subclass can have.

Combat prowess improvement: 11th level feature, which improves your combat effectiveness (something along the lines of 2nd Extra Attack, Improved Divine Smite, Volley, Whirlwind Attack, etc.)

An edgy feature: 15th level feature, which makes you stand out from the rest of your kind, possibly altering or improving an existing core ability.

Berserker's Hide: At 2nd level,when unarmored you may add your AC is equal to your 10+Dexterity Mod+Constitution Mod. If you hit at least once with weapon attack on your turn, you can use Inspiring Words to let allies within 30 feet of you that can see you to add your Charisma modifier to their Wisdom Saving Throws until the start of your next turn.

Inspiring Word- Berserker's Roar: At 7th level, you learn the Inspiring Word - Berserker's Roar. You bolster the resolve on one of your companions. An ally of your choice reduces damage they take by an amount equal to your charisma modifier for 1 minute (not sure on the length of the ability).

Berserker's Presence:At 11th level, Allies within 5ft of you have advantage on melee weapon attacks.

Berserker Trance: At 15th Level you can use a bonus action to enter the Berserk Trance for 1 minute. While in this trance you add your charisma modifier to attack and damage rolls and have advantage on Wisdom saving throws. (Possibly having the trade off of having to pick a single target that you focus in on, granting advantage to other enemies attacking you, if you use this I would give them advantage on the attack rolls, and adding Charisma to Damage)

That's my idea, but I don't know if it fits in with the rest of the class or archetypes

Arkhios
2016-12-23, 07:20 PM
Berserker's Hide: At 2nd level,when unarmored you may add your AC is equal to your 10+Dexterity Mod+Constitution Mod. If you hit at least once with weapon attack on your turn, you can use Inspiring Words to let allies within 30 feet of you that can see you to add your Charisma modifier to their Wisdom Saving Throws until the start of your next turn.

Inspiring Word- Berserker's Roar: At 7th level, you learn the Inspiring Word - Berserker's Roar. You bolster the resolve on one of your companions. An ally of your choice reduces damage they take by an amount equal to your charisma modifier for 1 minute (not sure on the length of the ability).

Berserker's Presence:At 11th level, Allies within 5ft of you have advantage on melee weapon attacks.

Berserker Trance: At 15th Level you can use a bonus action to enter the Berserk Trance for 1 minute. While in this trance you add your charisma modifier to attack and damage rolls and have advantage on Wisdom saving throws. (Possibly having the trade off of having to pick a single target that you focus in on, granting advantage to other enemies attacking you, if you use this I would give them advantage on the attack rolls, and adding Charisma to Damage)

That's my idea, but I don't know if it fits in with the rest of the class or archetypes

I think I can work the balance out of it.
Though it's still missing something that would instill fear into his allies and enemies alike, as the idea is to be something like a Genghis Khan, a warlord whose brutality towards his foes and subjects were the driving force of his success (at least partly).

Llama513
2016-12-23, 08:08 PM
You could change Bersekers Roar to cause fear to all creature within 30 feet for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma Modifier, or something like that

Arkhios
2016-12-23, 09:20 PM
Hmm. Maybe something similar to a dragon's frightful presence. It could be like this for a warlord:

Intimidating presence
Creatures within range must make a save or be frightened for a time, unless they attack targets of your choice, in which case they have advantage on their attack rolls against those targets.

Llama513
2016-12-23, 09:23 PM
Hmm. Maybe something similar to a dragon's frightful presence. It could be like this for a warlord:

Intimidating presence
Creatures within range must make a save or be frightened for a time, unless they attack targets of your choice, in which case they have advantage on their attack rolls against those targets.

Yeah, that works, I would suggest going with the usual 30 foot range

Arkhios
2016-12-23, 09:28 PM
Yeah, that works, I would suggest going with the usual 30 foot range

Yeah, ofcourse. I'll reiterate the wording, but that's the approach I'll take. Funny thing about it is that you could technically cause your enemies turn against each other through the fear of you :D

Llama513
2016-12-23, 09:30 PM
You totally could, that's a really cool aspect and if you are going for Genghis Khan that makes a lot of sense

Arkhios
2016-12-25, 11:59 AM
Now that the compulsory christmas festivities are over (not a big fan, no), I've been building up the next sub-class for Warlord, thinking of naming it as Tyrant.

Here's the current draft (my thanks to Llama513 for the general direction):

Tyrant
Leadership through fear.

Menacing Presence
Starting when you choose this warlord training at 2nd level, as an Action you can choose a target within 15 feet of you. That target and all hostile creatures within 15 feet of it that can see you must make a Wisdom saving throw against your Stratagem DC. The target remains frightened of you until it surrenders to you or your allies, or until it is 60 feet away from you.
Other hostile creatures that failed their saves are frightened of you as long as they remain within 30 feet of you, unless they attack the target of your choice.
Attacking the target of your choice ends the frightened condition on the attacker and gives the following effect instead: All friendly creatures gain advantage on saving throws against fear effects other than yours.
The effect ends early if you don't use your subsequent Actions to attack the target, if you choose to end it for no action, or if your target surrenders to you or your allies.
A target who succeeds the saving throw is immune to this effect for 24 hours.

Inspiring Word - Berserk Roar
At 7th level, you learn the Inspiring Word - Berserk Roar, to bolster the resolve of your enemies. Allies of your choice reduce damage they take by an amount equal to your charisma modifier until the start of your next turn.

Incite Rage
At 11th level, you learn to incite rage. As an Action on your turn, you can incite one of your companions to rage. Your companion can choose to not start raging, but if it doesn’t, it gains the following benefits while raging:

The target has advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
When the target makes a melee weapon attack using Strength, they get a +2 bonus to their damage rolls.
The target has resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.

If the target is able to cast spells, it can't cast them or concentrate on them while raging. Incite Rage lasts for 1 minute. lt ends early if the target is knocked unconscious or if its turn ends and the target hasn't attacked a hostile creature since its last turn or taken damage since then. The target can also end its rage as a bonus action on its turn.

If the target is a barbarian, it can use the rage class feature instead. Incite Rage doesn’t count against the barbarian’s rage limit.

You can use this feature once, until you must finish a short or long rest to be able use it again.

Berserk Rage
At 15th level, you learn to fight with unbridled ferocity. On your turn, you can enter a rage as a bonus action. While raging, you gain the following effecs:

You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you get a bonus to damage rolls equal to your Charisma modifier.
If you are unable to reach an enemy and attack one, you must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw against your Stratagem DC or approach and attack a nearest ally. If you succeed, you find a brief moment of clarity, and you can use your Action to Dash, Dodge, Ready, or Use an Object, Alternatively, you may use your Warlord's Banner if you have uses left. You repeat this save every turn while your rage lasts.
You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.


In addition, when you enter Berserk Rage, you can use Incite Rage, even if you have used it already.

If you are able to cast spells, you can't cast them or concentrate on them while raging.
While raging you can't use any Inspiring Words or Stratagems other than Berserk Roar.
Berserk Rage lasts for 1 minute. lt ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven't attacked a creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can't end your rage voluntarily. Once your rage ends, you must finish a long rest before you can rage again.

Edit: Oops! I accidentally made the Incite Rage a bit too much stronger than its equivalent features of Tactician and Vanguard. I think I'll change the Tactician's and Vanguard's features to also last for 1 minute with a short/long rest.
.
.
.
.
As a heads up, I'm going to merge Inspiring Words and Stratagems into one ability, but I've been somewhat busy to do that. I'll inform separately when that's done.

Basically, Stratagems will be "introduced" at first level as part of the Inspiring Word mechanic, setting up the basis for the Stratagem DC etc.

Llama513
2016-12-26, 04:33 PM
I like it, you should make it a little clearer that the benefit of incite rage comes from going into the rage, the double negative is a little hard to decifer

Arkhios
2016-12-27, 07:03 AM
I like it, you should make it a little clearer that the benefit of incite rage comes from going into the rage, the double negative is a little hard to decifer

I've updated the previous post, but I haven't been able to access homebrewery for a while, so the changes haven't been updated in there - yet.
- I unified the Incite Rage to more closely resemble actual rage, and remodeled the 15th level feature to Berserk Rage, along the same lines of a standard rage.
- I also merged Inspiring Words and Stratagems, but I feel it might need some rewording. If someone has a suggestion, let me know.
- Also, I made updates to the Tyrant in the Homebrewery.

Llama513
2016-12-27, 07:42 PM
I've updated the previous post, but I haven't been able to access homebrewery for a while, so the changes haven't been updated in there - yet.
- I unified the Incite Rage to more closely resemble actual rage, and remodeled the 15th level feature to Berserk Rage, along the same lines of a standard rage.
- I also merged Inspiring Words and Stratagems, but I feel it might need some rewording. If someone has a suggestion, let me know.
- Also, I made updates to the Tyrant in the Homebrewery.

I really like what you have done, but I think you should specify the number of allies that you can affect with Berserk Roar at a time, cause being able to affect any amount at once seems a little too strong

Arkhios
2016-12-27, 08:56 PM
I really like what you have done, but I think you should specify the number of allies that you can affect with Berserk Roar at a time, cause being able to affect any amount at once seems a little too strong

That's actually specified under the rules for Inspiring Words, as is the action to use them.

Llama513
2016-12-27, 08:57 PM
That's actually specified under the rules for Inspiring Words, as is the action to use them.

Whoops missed that, I think that works quite nicely

Arkhios
2016-12-27, 09:12 PM
I must say that I'm having second thoughts about Berserk Roar, since it overlaps with the Stalwart's damage reduction. I'm torn whether I should change Berserk Roar or Stalwart to remove the overlap.

If I change Berserk Roar, it might - instead of damage reduction - either grant some other beneficial effect to your allies (keeping it in line with the other Inspiring Words)
OR
make it become first (and so far only) Inspiring Word that affects enemies instead of allies, by frightening a number of enemies;

Maybe causing disadvantage to attack rolls until the start of your next turn?

If, however, I end up changing Stalwart I'm wondering whether it would break balance if I gave the warlord an Aura of Courage at 6th level already.

Llama513
2016-12-27, 09:14 PM
I must say that I'm having second thoughts about Berserk Roar, since it overlaps with the Stalwart's damage reduction. I'm torn whether I should change Berserk Roar or Stalwart to remove the overlap.

If I change Berserk Roar, it might - instead of damage reduction - either grant some other beneficial effect to your allies (keeping it in line with the other Inspiring Words)
OR
make it become first (and so far only) Inspiring Word that affects enemies instead of allies, by frightening a number of enemies;

Maybe causing disadvantage to attack rolls until the start of your next turn?

If, however, I end up changing Stalwart I'm wondering whether it would break balance if I gave the warlord an Aura of Courage at 6th level already.

I think the frightened makes the most sense thematically, and having theirs be the only one that affects enemies, I think is fine since they are very much built around crushing their enemies

Arkhios
2016-12-30, 11:02 AM
I think the frightened makes the most sense thematically, and having theirs be the only one that affects enemies, I think is fine since they are very much built around crushing their enemies

I've been in the process of updating warlord, but last time my laptop decided to run through a massive system update without any permissions asked (thank you Microsoft, for your utterly crappy windows 10. Now could I have my Win 7 back?), So I got interrupted in the middle of work and the page was probably left in some disarray. I'll inform when I've got over my frustration and have fixed what I set up to do in the first place.

Here are some thoughts I've been going through with the fixes:

I've been thinking that I might actually flip Stratagems and Inspiring Words around.
Firstly, you'd learn one Stratagem once you get the class feature, and one more per level at 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th. You'd be able to use a Stratagem for a number of times as shown in the class table for Inspiring Words (though I think I messed the class table up before the mishap); basically same as the warlock's short rest spell slots.
Secondly, Inspiring Words are going to be shifted to become kinda like Cantrips. You'll still only have the three + 1 from sub-class, but you'll be able to use them all at-will.
Thirdly, I'm pondering if I should actually drop Banner to first level, and have Stratagems begin at second level (like spells for a half-caster).
All in all, I'm trying to differentiate Stratagems from Inspiring Words, except for the occasional Saving Throw DC.

What comes to Berserk Roar, I think I'll make it an ability that instead of giving a new Inspiring Word modifies existing two Inspiring Words (Hero's Defiance and Morale Lift) to force a saving throw or cause a negative effect instead, possibly also negative for invigorate, if I can come up with a relatively equal negative effect for temporary hit points.

Additionally, at 7th level the Tyrant could use Menacing Attack stratagem at-will.

Llama513
2016-12-30, 05:08 PM
I've been thinking that I might actually flip Stratagems and Inspiring Words around.
Firstly, you'd learn one Stratagem once you get the class feature, and one more per level at 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th. You'd be able to use a Stratagem for a number of times as shown in the class table for Inspiring Words (though I think I messed the class table up before the mishap); basically same as the warlock's short rest spell slots.
Secondly, Inspiring Words are going to be shifted to become kinda like Cantrips. You'll still only have the three + 1 from sub-class, but you'll be able to use them all at-will.
Thirdly, I'm pondering if I should actually drop Banner to first level, and have Stratagems begin at second level (like spells for a half-caster).
All in all, I'm trying to differentiate Stratagems from Inspiring Words, except for the occasional Saving Throw DC.

What comes to Berserk Roar, I think I'll make it an ability that instead of giving a new Inspiring Word modifies existing two Inspiring Words (Hero's Defiance and Morale Lift) to force a saving throw or cause a negative effect instead, possibly also negative for invigorate, if I can come up with a relatively equal negative effect for temporary hit points.

Additionally, at 7th level the Tyrant could use Menacing Attack stratagem at-will.

I like these ideas, as for equal negative effect for temporary hitpoints, I think would be temporarily reducing their maximum hitpoints, I think

Arkhios
2016-12-30, 09:45 PM
Hmm, the ideas lived "a bit" when I was fixing the class.

Warlord's Banner is now a 2nd level feature.

Stratagem Changes:
- Goading, Maneuvering, and Menacing Attack have been moved to Tactician, Vanguard, and Tyrant respectively as 7th level features, since sub-class specific Inspiring Words made no sense anymore.
- Warlord learns Stratagems at 5th level, and he learns all three remaining stratagems at once.
- Stratagems can now be used once per rest at 5th level, twice at 9th level, thrice at 13th level, and four times at 17th level.
- Sub-class specific Stratagems can be used at-will, but only once per turn.

Tyrant's Menacing Presence completely rebuilt:
- Tyrant now has "Unarmored Defense" due to a frightening war paint once they choose their sub-class (which are now chosen at 3rd level instead of 2nd).
- Additionally, starting from 7th level, menacing presence lets a tyrant use Menacing Words at-will (essentially reversed versions of Inspiring Words)

Sub-class feature changes:
- 15th level features for Tactician and Vanguard have been slightly boosted as an attempt to balance them with Tyrant.

Plus some minor changes I already forgot :D

Ziegander
2016-12-31, 12:13 AM
I'm the only person here who thinks at-will advantage to your whole party for a bonus action is totally unbalanced? Tyrant is even worse as you can just give every enemy you can see disadvantage on their next attack every turn as a bonus action (with no saving throw to resist).

Arkhios
2016-12-31, 01:11 AM
I'm the only person here who thinks at-will advantage to your whole party for a bonus action is totally unbalanced? Tyrant is even worse as you can just give every enemy you can see disadvantage on their next attack every turn as a bonus action (with no saving throw to resist).

Umm... I'm 100℅-certain that the Tyrant's ability requires a saving throw to resist the effect (read again the description above the words), but I guess you're right about the Words being at-will. I guess I'll change it so that they can be used for a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier per short or long rest. Menacing Words will share the same pool.

Or is your beef with the ability being bonus action? I've got no problem with changing it to Action instead.

But it's definitely not every enemy you can see; it's enemies up to your charisma modifier, which can be anything between 1 to 5 (though, more likely anything between 2 to 5).

PS. You know, instead of sharing your opinions in a rather belittling manner, maybe you could've suggested a fix to make it more balanced so that it would please you.
Right now I can only thank you for nothing.

Ziegander
2016-12-31, 11:51 AM
Umm... I'm 100℅-certain that the Tyrant's ability requires a saving throw to resist the effect (read again the description above the words), but I guess you're right about the Words being at-will. I guess I'll change it so that they can be used for a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier per short or long rest. Menacing Words will share the same pool.

Or is your beef with the ability being bonus action? I've got no problem with changing it to Action instead.

But it's definitely not every enemy you can see; it's enemies up to your charisma modifier, which can be anything between 1 to 5 (though, more likely anything between 2 to 5).

PS. You know, instead of sharing your opinions in a rather belittling manner, maybe you could've suggested a fix to make it more balanced so that it would please you.
Right now I can only thank you for nothing.

I did misread the Menacing Words, up to 5 targets with a saving throw makes it a lot more manageable, though at that point it might be better to just spam Encouraging Word instead. I guess I would recommend offering a different effect. Maybe the Menacing Word equivalent gives one selected enemy disadvantage on all attacks it makes until your next turn?

Encouraging Word is just insane, though. Bardic Inspiration is a really good ability, and even Bards can only use their bonus action to give one ally an advantage-like boost to attack or skill at a time, up to 5 times per short rest. Encouraging Word is way too good.

Since you're using maneuvers a la Battlemaster in this anyway, how about straight up using a shared pool of Tactical Dice, or something, so you can mirror the effects of both Bardic Inspiration dice and Superiority dice at the same time? Supportive Word then gives one ally a save reroll with a bonus equal to the Tactical Die roll, Invigorating Word gives one ally temporary hit points equal to the Tactical Die roll (+ your Charisma modifier maybe), and Encouraging Word gives one ally a bonus on their next attack or skill check equal to the Tactical Die roll.

In fact, this could be really cool if it worked like Bardic Inspiration where you give the ally a Tactical Die and they choose when and how to spend it sometime within the next 10 minutes, because, then as you gain Battlemaster maneuvers that you can use with the Tactical Die so could any teammate you have given a Tactical Die to.

Sorry if I'm came across as belittling, I didn't mean to, but I did post right before going to bed and after a hard day of work. Just remember, not every comment is going to be praise. Even criticism that's not inherently constructive can be valuable.

Arkhios
2016-12-31, 01:00 PM
I realize that not all comments are going to be praises, but that's not what I have an issue with.
Instead, criticism without elaborating what exactly bothers the person isn't really helpful.

All I want is to have the Warlord be a well-balanced class. :(

"criticism that's not inherently constructive can be valuable."
Valuable? Sure. Helpful? Not really.

If something feels off-balance, in my honest opinion, it would be more helpful (for me) if people would explain why they feel how they feel, and how would they prefer see it fixed.

I wish I'm not asking for impossible things, and I'm sorry if my response sounded aggressive. It wasn't my intention. Probably a bit sarcastic, though.

Arkhios
2017-01-01, 07:06 PM
I intended to discuss this behind closed doors at first to avoid polluting the thread with a completely new iteration of full mechanics, but I actually liked the idea Ziegander proposed, and I found I'm impatient to see what others might think of this:

Inspiring Words are abilities which you use either as your bonus action or as your reaction, depending on circumstances.

Stratagems are abilities which you can let your allies use by spending Battle Inspiration dice for the appropriate rolls, much like Bardic Inspiration.

The difference between Inspiring Words and Stratagems is that Inspiring Words are intended as their own actions, while Stratagems are intended being used as part of an attack.

1st level: Battle Inspiration (d4)
You learn all Inspiring Words (essentially same as Bardic Inspiration (including Combat Inspiration from Valor Bard)+Rally maneuver).
You can use the Battle Inspiration a number of times equal to your charisma modifier per long rest.
5th level: Battle Inspiration (d6)
You learn Commander's Strike and Distracting Strike, which you can use 1/turn (at-will). You can use either or.
In addition, you learn 1 Stratagem of your choice from the list below, which you can grant to your allies instead of Inspiring Words.
You can now use Battle Inspiration a number of times equal to your charisma modifier per short rest.
7th level: Sub-class feature
Tactician learns Maneuvering Attack, which you can use in place of Commander's Strike or Distracting Strike (at-will)
Vanguard learns Goading Attack, which you can use in place of Commander's Strike or Distracting Strike (at-will)
Tyrant learns Menacing Attack, which you can use in place of Commander's Strike or Distracting Strike (at-will)
9th level: Battle Inspiration (d8)
You learn 1 additional Stratagem from the list below.
10th level: Warlord Base feature
Inspired Defense: You add Parry and Riposte to your list of Inspiring Words.
13th level: Battle Inspiration (d10)
You learn 1 additional Stratagem from the list below.
17th level: Battle Inspiration (d12)
You learn 1 additional Stratagem from the list below.

The Stratagem List:
Disarming Attack
Feinting Attack
Lunging Attack
Precision Attack
Pushing Attack
Sweeping Attack
Trip Attack

In addition to the existing options, Tyrant gets Cutting Words equivalent as Menacing Words, plus one that is intended as a reversed effect for Rally.

Does that sound fair and balanced to you guys?

Ziegander
2017-01-01, 07:59 PM
Sorry, I did get your PM, but it's been a long, busy day.

What I was suggesting was, essentially, well, this:


WARLORD'S TACTICS
You can lead others through tactical commands delivered in the midst of battle. You have a number of Tactical dice equal to your Charisma modifier, which are d6s. A Tactical die is expended when used by you or an ally (see below). You regain all of your expended Tactical dice when you finish a long rest.

As a bonus action on your turn, you may roll one of your Tactical dice to gain that many temporary hit points or add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw you make.

Alternatively, you may use your bonus action to give the Tactical die to a chosen creature other than yourself within 60 feet of you who can hear you. Once within the next 10 minutes, the creature can roll the die and gain that many temporary hit points or add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes.

The creature can wait until after it rolls the d20 before deciding to use the Tactical die, but must decide before the GM says whether the roll succeeds or fails. Once the Tactical die is used, it is lost. A creature can have only one Tactical die at a time.

Your Tactical die changes when you reach certain levels in this class. The die becomes a d8 at 5th level, a d10 at 10th level, and a d12 at 15th level.

And so, then, as the Warlord as written would gain new maneuvers or inspiring words, I was suggesting that you amend it so that those become new uses for the Warlord's Tactics ability as written above, so that either you could use them yourself, or grant the dice to your party mates so that they could use them if they wanted. Makes the class into an interesting Battlemaster Skald hybrid. I'd suggest having the dice replenish on a short rest around 5th level when the Bard gets Font of Inspiration (you can put that at 6th, or you can move extra attack to 6th level if you want). My main sticking point was, though Bards get spells at 1st level, you don't want your inspiration ability to just be so overwhelmingly more powerful than theirs because the Warlord doesn't get spells. Bardic Inspiration is great, often as good as any 1st level spell or better.

Arkhios
2017-01-01, 08:31 PM
Sorry, I did get your PM, but it's been a long, busy day.

What I was suggesting was, essentially, well, this:



And so, then, as the Warlord as written would gain new maneuvers or inspiring words, I was suggesting that you amend it so that those become new uses for the Warlord's Tactics ability as written above, so that either you could use them yourself, or grant the dice to your party mates so that they could use them if they wanted. Makes the class into an interesting Battlemaster Skald hybrid. I'd suggest having the dice replenish on a short rest around 5th level when the Bard gets Font of Inspiration (you can put that at 6th, or you can move extra attack to 6th level if you want). My main sticking point was, though Bards get spells at 1st level, you don't want your inspiration ability to just be so overwhelmingly more powerful than theirs because the Warlord doesn't get spells. Bardic Inspiration is great, often as good as any 1st level spell or better.

So, basically more or less what I came up with from your previous post. :)

JFYI, the format would be more like what you wrote, not like how I put it in my iteration. It was basically for bullet-point-esque purposes to help figuring out what comes at which levels.

I did intend that warlord could be some kind of no-spell alternative for Bard (for a no-magic campaign, for example) with its own schtick as a battlefield leader as it was in 4th edition, with potential for "martial healing" in the form of granting temporary hit points and/or spending hit dice in combat.

The reason why I chose to progress the die from d4 to d12 was that I hoped to fill dead levels at 9th and 13th levels with something, and I felt it could follow a pattern similar to when half-caster spell levels increase (5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th)

Why I prefer to call the dice Battle Inspiration is mainly because Tactician is one of the three sub-classes and it might cause confusion if both the core class and one sub-class used similar terminology. But maybe that's just me.

Ziegander
2017-01-01, 08:56 PM
Oh, Battle Inspiration dice is a fine name, too. As far as d4s vs d6s, since you don't start with spells I figured starting at d6 was fair, even with the additional use over a Bard's inspiration dice, but, I suppose with martial weapons, better armor, and higher hit points, it's neither here nor there.

I do think your class is overall a solid Marshal/Warlord successor from 3e/4e to 5e otherwise. Many of the higher level features did seem appropriate and well-written. I'll keep checking back to see where you're going with it.

Arkhios
2017-01-02, 07:10 AM
Oh, Battle Inspiration dice is a fine name, too. As far as d4s vs d6s, since you don't start with spells I figured starting at d6 was fair, even with the additional use over a Bard's inspiration dice, but, I suppose with martial weapons, better armor, and higher hit points, it's neither here nor there.

I do think your class is overall a solid Marshal/Warlord successor from 3e/4e to 5e otherwise. Many of the higher level features did seem appropriate and well-written. I'll keep checking back to see where you're going with it.

Thanks. At least I did something right there! :smallbiggrin:

I just realised that your suggestion for the dice allows the warlord himself to benefit from them as well. Initially the idea was that warlord could only affect creatures other than himself, and that he could later use stratagems to accomplish special combat tricks that would aid his allies in other ways, such as riders for his own attacks (like the maneuvers)

Would you say that it works if the so called "inspiring words" (THP, or a bonus to one skill, attack, and saving throw + later bonus AC and riposte) would only affect his allies, and later, when warlord learns commander's strike, distracting strike, and the one from sub-class, they could use one of those at-will 1/turn. And the remaining maneuvers/stratagems could be used either by yourself or be bestowed to allies.

Ziegander
2017-01-02, 04:16 PM
I just realised that your suggestion for the dice allows the warlord himself to benefit from them as well. Initially the idea was that warlord could only affect creatures other than himself, and that he could later use stratagems to accomplish special combat tricks that would aid his allies in other ways, such as riders for his own attacks (like the maneuvers)

Would you say that it works if the so called "inspiring words" (THP, or a bonus to one skill, attack, and saving throw + later bonus AC and riposte) would only affect his allies, and later, when warlord learns commander's strike, distracting strike, and the one from sub-class, they could use one of those at-will 1/turn. And the remaining maneuvers/stratagems could be used either by yourself or be bestowed to allies.

Ah... yeah, that I was kind of iffy on, at-will maneuvers and different subsets of inspiration/stratagems/maneuvers that can or can't be used by the Warlord himself. I personally think it's cleaner to just let him "inspire" himself, I suppose another argument for the "Tactical Dice" nomenclature, rather than try to have so many different categories of powers for the class, but it is your class after all, and you should do what feels right to you.

Arkhios
2017-01-02, 05:30 PM
Ah... yeah, that I was kind of iffy on, at-will maneuvers and different subsets of inspiration/stratagems/maneuvers that can or can't be used by the Warlord himself. I personally think it's cleaner to just let him "inspire" himself, I suppose another argument for the "Tactical Dice" nomenclature, rather than try to have so many different categories of powers for the class, but it is your class after all, and you should do what feels right to you.

Oh, okay. I see.

While Warlord certainly is a class of my design, I would still prefer that everyone reading it "could take the class as their own", so to speak. Afterall, my aim is to try to please the general audience, and if someone, even if only one, dislikes a tentative design like that, I'll scrap it.

And besides, I must admit that even I felt that it would've been more than a little convoluted. Maybe it's for the best if it was as simple as possible; it's only one aspect of the class, not the main schtick.

Arkhios
2017-01-03, 05:13 AM
Major update:
- Inspiring Words replaced by Battle Inspiration (dice start at d4 and increase to d12)
- Combat Leader renamed as Banner
- Banner renamed as Inspiring Words and slightly modified.
- Stratagems as additional options to use Battle Inspiration for.
- Both the Warlord and his or her allies can use Battle Inspiration for most Stratagems. Only Warlord can use Commander's Strike and Distracting Strike.
- at 7th level, each sub-class learns a unique stratagem, available only to them. In addition, starting from 7th level, each sub-class can use Commander's Strike, Distracting Strike, and their unique stratagem without expending a battle inspiration die, but neither do they add the battle inspiration die to damage while doing so; this ability can be used once per short rest.
- Stalwart re-purposed to be of better use to Battle Inspiration: It's basically the Warlord's version for Font of Inspiration, but kicks in at 6th level.
- Inspiring Defense re-designed to further accumulate with Battle Inspiration by providing defensive uses for Battle Inspiration, and an improvement for temporary hit points gained through the dice.
- Tactician's, Vanguard's, and Tyrant's presences re-designed.
- Tyrant's presence expands Battle inspiration to be used on enemies in a same way as Lore Bard's Cutting Words does.

Check it out and please, do tell what you think.

I think that Warlord might be ready for playtest by now, but what would you say?

Flashy
2017-01-04, 12:31 AM
I'm worried the Warlord drags pretty badly between 3rd and 5th levels. You've got 2-4 uses of Battle Inspiration per long rest and you're just picking up feature after feature that lets you use Battle Inspiration, but no way to generate extra uses. Given that it seems like it's supposed to be a primary power source I'd be inclined to base it more off Superiority Dice progression than Bardic Inspiration. I truly think it should be short rest recharge from 3rd level rather than 6th.

The Tyrant heavily incentivize a dex based Warlord. Is that intentional? Given that it's 3rd level feature is Unarmored Defense (the other stuff is nice, but again you've only got a handful of Inspiration Dice a day for the next two levels) I feel like it's going to attract almost exclusively Halflings, Tieflings, Drow, etc. I love the rage features, but they come online so late that I question whether most Tyrants would ever really see them.

Arkhios
2017-01-04, 03:56 AM
I'm worried the Warlord drags pretty badly between 3rd and 5th levels. You've got 2-4 uses of Battle Inspiration per long rest and you're just picking up feature after feature that lets you use Battle Inspiration, but no way to generate extra uses. Given that it seems like it's supposed to be a primary power source I'd be inclined to base it more off Superiority Dice progression than Bardic Inspiration. I truly think it should be short rest recharge from 3rd level rather than 6th.
A valid observation. Hmmm... I guess I could swap the positions of Logistics and Stalwart with each other. In fact, I'll do that now.


The Tyrant heavily incentivize a dex based Warlord. Is that intentional? Given that it's 3rd level feature is Unarmored Defense (the other stuff is nice, but again you've only got a handful of Inspiration Dice a day for the next two levels) I feel like it's going to attract almost exclusively Halflings, Tieflings, Drow, etc. I love the rage features, but they come online so late that I question whether most Tyrants would ever really see them.
Good catch! No, it's not intentional. I was actually hoping it would incentivize a more barbarian-esque character with somewhat more strength oriented approach. Maybe I should drop the Berserk Rage to 3rd level. Would you say that would fix it? If I did, should I keep the Menacing Inspiration options at 3rd level as well, or push them a bit further up the levels?
the Unarmored Defense is bit of a tentative feature, it could be dropped, since warlord has proficiency with heavy armor after all.

QUICK EDIT: Unless... Maybe if I gave the Warlord only up to medium armor proficiency, and had the Training determine if they had heavy armor proficiency. In that case it would incentivize the Vanguard more to the heavily armored juggernaut I envisioned it anyway.

Maybe something along these lines:

A Tactician is focused in maneuvering in combat, so increased mobility might be their cup of tea: Fast Movement +10 feet while wearing medium, light, or no armor. maybe also expertise in Deception.
A Vanguard is focused in holding the frontlines as an immovable obstacle and a beacon of inspiration: Heavy Armor Proficiency. maybe also expertise in Persuasion.
A Tyrant is focused in being a frightening opponent, demoralizing his foes at every possible turn: War Paint (Unarmored Defense with 10+dex+cha). maybe also expertise in Intimidation.

Sad Tyrant
2017-01-04, 06:48 AM
OK, lets start picking this apart and finding all good and bad bits (of course, all in my own opinion)

First, Formatting, while most of it is OK, please look at how each thing is listed in the PHB or Basic rules, most people don't give a **** but it just triggers me.

Second, Banner is great, i really like the flavour and Mechanics of it. Battle inspiration is a Problem, it works too much like a Bard and then some. even if the dice start as d4s you are treading on a Classes abilities, for example a lore bard doesn't get to use his dice on himself at all until level 14, and he doesn't get to use them on saving throws or attack rolls. Since it is battle Inspiration I recommend reducing it to Str, Dex and Con saves and checks, instead of all saves and checks. Keep the temp hit points and attack rolls because that obviously makes sense.

Third, the Proficiency are fine, though i recommend switching from wisdom Saves to Dex or Con, and I'd put persuasion on the skill list as well.

Fourth, I'd make the wording more clear for using stratagem, Are allies allowed to use Stratagem?, I can't tell.

fifth, I like the Tactician, and Most of the Vanguard, this follows from my second point, A Fighter of the Champion Archetype has the exclusivity and should always have that exclusivity of being able to crit on an 18 - 20, anything that includes the same mechanic should be removed. why? because it makes light of that heavy mechanic which makes up an important part of the archetypes identity. the reason i haven't said any about the battle master is because they still get 4 attacks and can do other things. a Champion Fighter can't.

sixth, at first when I saw the Tyrant I thought it was bad, but when i looked at it again, It's actually pretty good. I, personally, would restrict it from ability checks though to make it less like cutting word.

I would post a link to my edit of Rawrawraw's version but I'm new here. I would do this, because all the advice i get from other DM's are one of three things (plagiarize, Comprise and Improvise )

I think it would Inspire you further.

anyway keep up the good homebrewing.

Llama513
2017-01-04, 02:05 PM
A Tactician is focused in maneuvering in combat, so increased mobility might be their cup of tea: Fast Movement +10 feet while wearing medium, light, or no armor. maybe also expertise in Deception.
A Vanguard is focused in holding the frontlines as an immovable obstacle and a beacon of inspiration: Heavy Armor Proficiency. maybe also expertise in Persuasion.
A Tyrant is focused in being a frightening opponent, demoralizing his foes at every possible turn: War Paint (Unarmored Defense with 10+dex+cha). maybe also expertise in Intimidation.

I like this idea, it really helps to make each of the archetypes show what it is that they are good at.

As for the concerns with the battle inspiration, for most campaigns I understand the concern with moving into the territory of bard, however with the low magic campaign you are planning I feel that they are fine, but for most campaigns, it does step in the area of bard, what you could do is have the number of uses follow the superiority dice system, and the progression be what you have now to truly capture that the ability is combining the bardic inspiration and the superiority dice.

Flashy
2017-01-04, 02:14 PM
QUICK EDIT: Unless... Maybe if I gave the Warlord only up to medium armor proficiency, and had the Training determine if they had heavy armor proficiency. In that case it would incentivize the Vanguard more to the heavily armored juggernaut I envisioned it anyway.

Maybe something along these lines:

A Tactician is focused in maneuvering in combat, so increased mobility might be their cup of tea: Fast Movement +10 feet while wearing medium, light, or no armor. maybe also expertise in Deception.
A Vanguard is focused in holding the frontlines as an immovable obstacle and a beacon of inspiration: Heavy Armor Proficiency. maybe also expertise in Persuasion.
A Tyrant is focused in being a frightening opponent, demoralizing his foes at every possible turn: War Paint (Unarmored Defense with 10+dex+cha). maybe also expertise in Intimidation.

I think this is definitely a solid plan. It's a relatively simple tweak that reinforces basic but meaningful distinctions between subclasses. You're sacrificing some amount of archetype flexibility but with the Rage features earlier in the progression I expect you could still see Dwarf or Half-Orc Tyrants.

Flashy
2017-01-04, 02:29 PM
Battle inspiration is a Problem, it works too much like a Bard and then some. even if the dice start as d4s you are treading on a Classes abilities, for example a lore bard doesn't get to use his dice on himself at all until level 14, and he doesn't get to use them on saving throws or attack rolls. Since it is battle Inspiration I recommend reducing it to Str, Dex and Con saves and checks, instead of all saves and checks. Keep the temp hit points and attack rolls because that obviously makes sense.

This is Arkhios's thread and I don't want to step on his toes but I profoundly disagree about this. The Inspiration features are filling radically different roles in the two cases. Bardic Inspiration is a way for Bards to throw a little party support around without cutting into their primary rest resource (the spell slots) while the Battle Inspiration ARE the primary rest resource for the Warlord. The Lore Bard can't use his dice on himself until 14th level because that's not the point of the Bardic Inspiration. The Warlord needs more flexibility with these dice simply because they're carrying a lot more of the character's basic utility. To my mind it's not stepping on the Bard's toes in the same way the Cleric's full casting progression isn't stepping on the Paladin's toes. They're different levels of access to similar abilities which reflect the different power sources and intended roles of the two classes.

Sad Tyrant
2017-01-04, 02:54 PM
This is Arkhios's thread and I don't want to step on his toes but I profoundly disagree about this. The Inspiration features are filling radically different roles in the two cases. Bardic Inspiration is a way for Bards to throw a little party support around without cutting into their primary rest resource (the spell slots) while the Battle Inspiration ARE the primary rest resource for the Warlord. The Lore Bard can't use his dice on himself until 14th level because that's not the point of the Bardic Inspiration. The Warlord needs more flexibility with these dice simply because they're carrying a lot more of the character's basic utility. To my mind it's not stepping on the Bard's toes in the same way the Cleric's full casting progression isn't stepping on the Paladin's toes. They're different levels of access to similar abilities which reflect the different power sources and intended roles of the two classes.

Well Argued, Gives me something to think about in more detail, I still kind of feel it treads on 1 core mechanic of the Bard, Also to step on a Full Paladin's toes is to go 15 cleric/ 5 Paladin and use 9th level smites :smalltongue: (because they still get 9th level Spell Slots). If you want to talk about this further, start a new thread I'd be happy to further debate with you, if i have time

Arkhios
2017-01-04, 06:48 PM
OK, lets start picking this apart and finding all good and bad bits (of course, all in my own opinion)

First, Formatting, while most of it is OK, please look at how each thing is listed in the PHB or Basic rules, most people don't give a **** but it just triggers me.
I'm sorry, was that a compliment or critique? :smalltongue: Anyway, I tried (as I do care) to keep the formatting as close to PHB as possible. I guess I got a bit carried away here or there.



Second, Banner is great, i really like the flavour and Mechanics of it. Battle inspiration is a Problem, it works too much like a Bard and then some. even if the dice start as d4s you are treading on a Classes abilities, for example a lore bard doesn't get to use his dice on himself at all until level 14, and he doesn't get to use them on saving throws or attack rolls. Since it is battle Inspiration I recommend reducing it to Str, Dex and Con saves and checks, instead of all saves and checks. Keep the temp hit points and attack rolls because that obviously makes sense.
The Inspiration features are filling radically different roles in the two cases. Bardic Inspiration is a way for Bards to throw a little party support around without cutting into their primary rest resource (the spell slots) while the Battle Inspiration ARE the primary rest resource for the Warlord. The Lore Bard can't use his dice on himself until 14th level because that's not the point of the Bardic Inspiration. The Warlord needs more flexibility with these dice simply because they're carrying a lot more of the character's basic utility. To my mind it's not stepping on the Bard's toes in the same way the Cleric's full casting progression isn't stepping on the Paladin's toes. They're different levels of access to similar abilities which reflect the different power sources and intended roles of the two classes.
Flashy's comment on this was spot on. I must say I couldn't have said it better.


Third, the Proficiency are fine, though i recommend switching from wisdom Saves to Dex or Con, and I'd put persuasion on the skill list as well.
I had to check what was the 4th edition warlord's save bonuses, and they received +1 to Fortitude and +1 to Will. Since Will was determined by either Wisdom or Charisma in 4th, I guess it could make some sense to change the saves to Constitution and Charisma. About persuasion, I honestly thought I did put it there. I guess not. I did intend to. Thanks for pointing that out.


Fourth, I'd make the wording more clear for using stratagem, Are allies allowed to use Stratagem?, I can't tell.
I did mention under Stratagem, on the subhead Battle Inspiration, that allies could fuel any stratagems you know, with the intention that yes, allies are allowed to use stratagem as well, but I guess it might need to be clarified a bit.


fifth, I like the Tactician, and Most of the Vanguard, this follows from my second point, A Fighter of the Champion Archetype has the exclusivity and should always have that exclusivity of being able to crit on an 18 - 20, anything that includes the same mechanic should be removed. why? because it makes light of that heavy mechanic which makes up an important part of the archetypes identity. the reason i haven't said any about the battle master is because they still get 4 attacks and can do other things. a Champion Fighter can't.
Thanks. Tactician is probably the most iconic Warlord I could think of, so I had some strong expectations for it. Glad to hear I succeeded.
On the improved critical range I admit it was lazy design from my part, but as I couldn't come up with anything better at the time, I decided to add the opportunity attack rider on a critical hit. Maybe I should instead give them advantage with opportunity attacks? I know this would be somewhat tempting for a rogue dip, but I think that's fine. You get the feature at 15th level, so at best you'd get +3d6 extra damage on an opportunity attack. Not too much, I think. Besides, then you wouldn't get the 20th level pretty awesome ability (which was borrowed and slightly redesigned from a Warlord's Epic Destiny from 4th edition).


sixth, at first when I saw the Tyrant I thought it was bad, but when i looked at it again, It's actually pretty good. I, personally, would restrict it from ability checks though to make it less like cutting word.
Thanks for the first part. (Although I do appreciate your opinions, I would say Flashy's comment above applies to this as well).


I would post a link to my edit of Rawrawraw's version but I'm new here. I would do this, because all the advice i get from other DM's are one of three things (plagiarize, Comprise and Improvise )

I think it would Inspire you further.

anyway keep up the good homebrewing.
In all honesty, I feel a bit awkward if someone plagiarized something I've made and then changed it. I may be a bit strange saying this, but it feels like inappropriately touching in my private areas. :smalleek:

Anyway, thank you for your feedback! :smallsmile:

Arkhios
2017-01-04, 08:11 PM
I've made some changes to the Warlord due to previous discussions.

Proficiencies:
- Heavy armor proficiency moved to Vanguard only.
- Wisdom saving throw proficiency changed to Constitution saving throw.
- Added Persuasion (and Deception) to list of skills.

Class features:
- Warlord's Training renamed Military Discipline for better flavor.
- Added a sidebar about Banners (page 2, under class table)
- Updated Inspiring Words to only affect a certain number of allies.
- Changed Inspiring Word - Bolster to more closely resemble Inspiring Leader feat.
- Clarified Stratagem to better convey the intent of being available for you and your allies with Battle Inspiration dice.
- Added Swift and Shrewd to Tactician: Fast Movement and Deception expertise
- Added Adamant to Vanguard: Heavy armor proficiency and Persuasion expertise
- Vanguard's Stance now provides advantage on opportunity attacks instead of improved critical range.
- Split Tyrant's Unarmored Defense from Menacing Presence as its own feature: War Tattoo (Unarmored defense and Intimidation expertise)
- Berserk Rage is now an 11th level feature (couldn't justify myself to let Tyrant have three major features at 3rd level, and on the other hand, I couldn't justify replacing 7th level feature either.)
- Incite Rage moved to 15th level.

Thoughts:
- I didn't feel like removing Discipline related stratagems as they are flavorful for each discipline, in my honest opinion.
- I'm not exactly sure if it's alright that Bolster is essentially a copy of a feat. Maybe in a featless game it adds some edge?

Sad Tyrant
2017-01-05, 12:47 AM
I'm Sorry about this honest, but maybe painful, critique of formatting. Im really Sorry :smallfrown:


I'm sorry, was that a compliment or critique? :smalltongue: Anyway, I tried (as I do care) to keep the formatting as close to PHB as possible. I guess I got a bit carried away here or there. :

What I meant by this is, Since you use Home-brewery, The "Martial Discipline" Title at the start of the list is two hashes (#) and should be, but each Discipline should be three hashes (### Tactician) and each of the abilities should be four.

Also have a look at your table, it is a bit different to the progression.

A list of Abilities such as Stratagem (which are like Invocations of the Warlock and the Maneuvers of BM) are generally listed at the end of the Class / Subclass in the PHB.

Anyway, enough of that

Attacks of Opportunity happen rarely in my games, so it seems a bit weak on paper to me. The only thing I can think of is Hypocritical of my previous Statements, But would kind of fit , the Shadow Monk's Opportunist ability.

There is an ability, If i remember correctly, that as a reaction, the warlord could dash up their ally when they go down and heal them, which increased for each attack of Opportunity they took. just something to throw out there.

Sorry again.

Arkhios
2017-01-05, 04:30 AM
I'm Sorry about this honest, but maybe painful, critique of formatting. Im really Sorry :smallfrown:



What I meant by this is, Since you use Home-brewery, The "Martial Discipline" Title at the start of the list is two hashes (#) and should be, but each Discipline should be three hashes (### Tactician) and each of the abilities should be four.

Also have a look at your table, it is a bit different to the progression.

A list of Abilities such as Stratagem (which are like Invocations of the Warlock and the Maneuvers of BM) are generally listed at the end of the Class / Subclass in the PHB.

Anyway, enough of that

Attacks of Opportunity happen rarely in my games, so it seems a bit weak on paper to me. The only thing I can think of is Hypocritical of my previous Statements, But would kind of fit , the Shadow Monk's Opportunist ability.

There is an ability, If i remember correctly, that as a reaction, the warlord could dash up their ally when they go down and heal them, which increased for each attack of Opportunity they took. just something to throw out there.

Sorry again.

No need to be sorry for that :smallsmile:
I'll fix the hashes, and move the list of stratagems to the end of the class, just after Tyrant.

Aaand it seems I forgot to swap Logistics and Stalwart on the table, silly me. :smalltongue:

That "dash to the rescue" is actually pretty nifty idea!

Let's try how this feels:

Intercept (Yoink, World of Warcraft's warrior!)
When an ally within the range of your base land speed who you can see is about to be hit by an attack, you can use your reaction to Dash and move to your ally. You push the ally 5 feet away from you to an empty space of your choice and take its place. Your ally then receives resistance against any damage from the attack, advantage against any saves that might occur, and gains temporary hit points equal to the total damage it takes from the attack, after resistance. You take the remaining of the damage which can't be reduced in any way, and you are also subjected to any saves your ally would make.
You can use this feature once before you must finish a short or long rest.

(Help for pruning out the wording would be appreciated)

I'll have to wait for tomorrow at least to update the homebrewery because today's my birthday and I'll officially become old -.-

Sad Tyrant
2017-01-05, 08:49 AM
I'll put any suggested changes in " These "




Intercept (Yoink, World of Warcraft's warrior!) That's probably where the Devs for 4th ed got the idea
When an ally within the range of your base land speed, who you can see, "would be hit by or take damage from a Weapon attack, spell attack or Area of Effect spell" (Not sure how to word this, because some spells like Tsunami or spells that do Psychic damage shouldn't be affected by this), you can use your reaction to Dash and move to your ally. You push the ally 5 feet away from you to an empty space of your choice and take its place. "They do not take any damage and cannot be affected by any additional effects the weapon attack or Spell would cause, but you are subjected all damage and effects your ally would take instead. You and Your ally also gain temporary hit points equal to twice your Charisma Modifier"
You can use this feature once before you must finish a short or long rest.



Edit: Almost Forgot, Happy Birthday

Steel Mirror
2017-01-05, 12:15 PM
Let's try how this feels:

Intercept (Yoink, World of Warcraft's warrior!)
When an ally within the range of your base land speed who you can see is about to be hit by an attack, you can use your reaction to Dash and move to your ally. You push the ally 5 feet away from you to an empty space of your choice and take its place. Your ally then receives resistance against any damage from the attack, advantage against any saves that might occur, and gains temporary hit points equal to the total damage it takes from the attack, after resistance. You take the remaining of the damage which can't be reduced in any way, and you are also subjected to any saves your ally would make.
You can use this feature once before you must finish a short or long rest.I'm curious as to why you have it so that the ally gains resistance to the damage from the attack, but then gains temp hp equal to the damage taken. Couldn't that lead to odd cases like you use the ability, your ally gets knocked down and takes 20 damage, then gains 20 temp hp. The cleric then heals your ally back up to full, but still with those 20 temp hp. Your ally is now more durable than he could be even fresh from a rest and a full heal, thanks to you tackling him out of the way. Which seems a bit odd. :smallwink:

Why not just have this prevent the damage completely?


Intercept
When a creature who you can see is hit by an attack, you can use your reaction to push them to safety and take their place. You immediately move up to your base land speed to occupy their position, and push the ally into an adjacent, unoccupied space. This creature suffers no damage from the attack and gains advantage against any saves that might occur. You take damage from the attack as though you were the original target, though you gain resistance to its damage, and you are also subjected to any saves the attack entails.
Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.


I also changed "ally" to "creature" in this ability, just because that seems to be more in line with how 5E words things (and because hey, maybe in some weird circumstance somebody might want to tackle an enemy out of the way of an attack for some reason!).

And happy birthday!

Arkhios
2017-01-05, 08:18 PM
I'm curious as to why you have it so that the ally gains resistance to the damage from the attack, but then gains temp hp equal to the damage taken. Couldn't that lead to odd cases like you use the ability, your ally gets knocked down and takes 20 damage, then gains 20 temp hp. The cleric then heals your ally back up to full, but still with those 20 temp hp. Your ally is now more durable than he could be even fresh from a rest and a full heal, thanks to you tackling him out of the way. Which seems a bit odd. :smallwink:

Why not just have this prevent the damage completely?


Intercept
When a creature who you can see is hit by an attack, you can use your reaction to push them to safety and take their place. You immediately move up to your base land speed to occupy their position, and push the ally into an adjacent, unoccupied space. This creature suffers no damage from the attack and gains advantage against any saves that might occur. You take damage from the attack as though you were the original target, though you gain resistance to its damage, and you are also subjected to any saves the attack entails.
Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.


I also changed "ally" to "creature" in this ability, just because that seems to be more in line with how 5E words things (and because hey, maybe in some weird circumstance somebody might want to tackle an enemy out of the way of an attack for some reason!).

And happy birthday!

Honestly, I'm not sure. Intercept was the byproduct of 1 minute thinking and I'll take a better look at the reaction to the feature when I'm not drunk or otherwise "distracted" of the felicitation.

Edit: Just saw the edited part which I didn't notice with my less-than-sober eyes earlier. Good thinking on the ally -> creature change, and on the hilarious thought of tackling an enemy! Made my day.

Arkhios
2017-01-06, 05:27 PM
What I meant by this is, Since you use Home-brewery, The "Martial Discipline" Title at the start of the list is two hashes (#) and should be, but each Discipline should be three hashes (### Tactician) and each of the abilities should be four.

Also have a look at your table, it is a bit different to the progression.

A list of Abilities such as Stratagem (which are like Invocations of the Warlock and the Maneuvers of BM) are generally listed at the end of the Class / Subclass in the PHB.


Finally got into fixing those hashes, and I must say, I felt there was something strange with how they looked but couldn't put my finger on it. Thank you for noticing that! Now it should be better.

First I had an idea that Stalwart would work for it, but then I decided that Logistics is far better as the class feature that lets you regain battle inspiration on a short rest rather than long rest, and I forgot to make changes to reflect that. Now, the table and the abilities themselves should match.

Also, moved the stratagem list to the end of the document, as was my intention. Which, unfortunately, I forgot to do. So, thanks again! :smallsmile:

What would I do without you, my fellow Giants, with this same head the whole year through. Memory check, natural 1.

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention, that I made some further changes to the class features. Nothing that makes the early levels much different, only replaced dungeoneer's pack with diplomat's pack, and then decided to add Intercept word for word how Steel Mirror suggested. I think that should work perfectly.

Llama513
2017-01-06, 05:52 PM
The alignment on Tactical presence and Vanguard's Goad is off

Arkhios
2017-01-06, 05:55 PM
The alignment on Tactical presence and Vanguard's Goad is off

That I can't help with, columns work under their own inherent rules, and what you see is what you get.

Llama513
2017-01-06, 05:57 PM
That I can't help with, columns work under their own inherent rules, and what you see is what you get.

Under the Editor drop down there are column breaks and page breaks that I have used to format some of my homebrewery in order to get it to line up right, unless its just me, and the original is lined up properly

Arkhios
2017-01-06, 05:59 PM
Under the Editor drop down there are column breaks and page breaks that I have used to format some of my homebrewery in order to get it to line up right, unless its just me, and the original is lined up properly

Oh, okay. Didn't know of that. Will see to it if I can't fix that. Actually, that doesn't help with the rows being unaligned between columns. It only allows to force a new column.

Llama513
2017-01-06, 06:00 PM
oh, okay. Didn't know of that. Will see to it if I can't fix that.

Glad I can help Darn, well it was worth a shot

Llama513
2017-01-06, 07:18 PM
Intercept is really cool, glad that you said the creature is pushed to safety, otherwise that could have been abused, I'm going to take this hit in order to shove this enemy right off that cliff, while funny I am glad that is not allowed with the ability

Arkhios
2017-01-17, 01:07 AM
Intercept is really cool, glad that you said the creature is pushed to safety, otherwise that could have been abused, I'm going to take this hit in order to shove this enemy right off that cliff, while funny I am glad that is not allowed with the ability

Yeah, it would get really wonky if I didn't specify it had to push the target to safety.


An experimental idea:
Starting at 9th level, and again at 13th and 17th level, you have one additional Battle Inspiration die and you can target one additional creature with one use of Battle Inspiration, expending dice individually for each target.

Arkhios
2017-08-29, 11:14 PM
After a long-ish hiatus from homebrewing, I added a feature called Strategic Acumen at Warlord's 1st level.

This was made to make the class appeal to larger base of races and play styles. Check it out!

Arkhios
2018-03-06, 08:45 AM
Long time no sea.

Pet projects are never finished enough to be satisfied ...enough. I've come to admit that I've been avoiding the eventual undertaking I'm about to discuss about shortly.

First, however, I'd like to sincerely thank you all for the support and complimentary comments towards the Warlord I've wrapped up. I'm humbled.

So, thank you.

Now, onto the matter at hand.
As some of you may have noticed (doesn't have to be Einstein to do that, to be honest), the Stratagems I have listed for the Warlord in its current state, are pretty much exact copies from Battle Master Fighter's Combat Maneuvers. I'd like to remedy that, and make them more unique to the Warlord. This means I will have to cut out some of them, and likewise, I may have to create completely new ones instead, where necessary. As of now, I have come up with only one change, but I'd still like to hear what you think about the change and direction of the undertaking.

Here's an updated version of:

Commander's Strike: When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo up to two of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct your companions to strike. When you do so, choose a number of friendly creatures who can see or hear you equal to the number of attacks you forgoed. A chosen creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding your Strategic Acumen modifier to the attack's damage roll.

Note: I am aware that this change has consequences all over the Warlord and I am prepared to make changes accordingly.