Vecna or Karsus, who came first

[Cybertron2]

Writing up a homebrew for the DM's guild (D&D Next) but having some difficulty with past D&D lore. Most of the references I find about Vecna talk about his origins as "a long time ago". Because of the whole Vecna/timetravel thing in Vecna Reborn it appears Vecna has no problem incorporating the past into his schemes, BUT I need to know if this is pre or post Karsus. This is because the rules for magic were different before Karsus cast "Karsus's avatar" and winked Mystryl out of existence, specifically wizards could cast 10th and 11th level spells (I think you can see where my plot is going).

So if anyone knows who came first (and preferably with some justification) I would really appreciate it. Also if there are any issues about the Weave travelling back through time retroactively (so you can't cast 10th level spells in the past anymore) it would be awesome if you could tell me those as well
Many thanks
Daniel

[JackPhoenix]

Vecna has nothing to do with Weave, he's from Greyhawk, not from Forgotten Realms. Anything Karsus did had no effect outside his setting. Spelljammer and Planescape muddles things a little, but still, who came first is kinda irrelevant.

[Cybertron2]

Cheers, guess I was mixing up pantheons. Just a quick follow up from that - the Hand and Eye of Vecna would presumably only exist in Greyhawk settings?
"Also I thought Karsus bumping off a god was the reason spells were restricted to level 9 in all settings? Have I mixed something up?"
Many thanks
Daniel

[Malifice]

Cheers, guess I was mixing up pantheons. Just a quick follow up from that - the Hand and Eye of Vecna would presumably only exist in Greyhawk settings?

Oerth and Faerun are connected via planar travel, so its entirely possible that the artifacts could be found on Faerun (similar to how Mordenkainen and Bigby and Melfs spells have also turned up in Mages spellbooks in Faerun, despite those three all being from Oerth).

Alternatively, refluff. Myrkyl is a pretty good candidate.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vecna has nothing to do with Weave, he's from Greyhawk, not from Forgotten Realms. I don't think that's quite right, Jack. Per the DMG and PHB for 5e, the Weave suffuses the multiverse, which encompasses a lot of worlds. Those include Boravia, Fearun, Greyhawk, Eberron, etc.

I am pretty sure Vecna preceded Karsus. Rumors of Vecna surfaced in Supplement 3 to OD&D (Eldritch Wizardry) via his eye and hand. As noted above, his birthplace was somewhere in the world of Greyhawk. (Or maybe he was born in E.G.G.'s mind after a few too many cups of coffee late one night ...)

The Hand of Vecna appears to be a dried, shriveled and blackened hand, such as could have been caused by having been burned. The hand (and it is also rumored in dark passageways, an eye) is the sole remains of an ancient lich who was so powerful that he was able to imbue his hand with wondrous/horrible powers and to enable it to survive even after his long-undead body had ceased to exist.

It is also said, but not in the hearing of strangers, that when the mighty lien(sic){lich}, Vecna, finally met his doom, that one of his eyes survived along with his hand. The eye may or may not have originally belonged to Vecna, as it is said to glitter much in the same manner as the eye of a feline. If the eye is pressed in the empty socket of a human's head, it grafts itself to the head of the user and gives him remarkable powers!

[JackPhoenix]

I don't think that's quite right, Jack. Per the DMG and PHB for 5e, the Weave suffuses the multiverse, which encompasses a lot of worlds. Those include Boravia, Fearun, Greyhawk, Eberron, etc.

Raw magic suffuses the multiverse. The Weave is local version in FR, and whatever Mystra did to stop epic level casters from messing with reality had no effect on other settings. There was no mention of the Weave in any setting book in previous edition where the settings got details... not that surprising, Greyhawk precedes FR, Darksun's magic works very differently, and Eberron is a separate multiverse with no official way to contact other settings, as it came out after Planescape and Spelljammer stopped being supported.

IMO, the sidebar is a bad idea, reminding me of forced fluff changes in 4e (Spellplague in FR...in fact, that one was directly tied to the Weave, and had no effect on other settings, proving that it's just a local thing...shoving Baator into Eberron's cosmology for...reasons, etc.)

[Falcon X]

I love mixing up the pantheons. It's a homebrew world, so call it Planescape of Spelljammer and be done with it.

As for the timing, Karsus was born in -696 DR. I could be wrong, but I always had the impression that Vecna was older than 2000ish years. They speak of many times when the hand and eye of Vecna have been found in the world and started wars or great trouble. Such a statement makes me think very ancient.
Still, in my game the years are enough so I would put the two at around the same time, albeit from different worlds, ascending at a similar time.

[edit] While Forgotten Realms won't admit it, Vecna has directly shaped the world of Toril. In the transition from 2nd edition to 3rd edition, Die Vecna Die happened. In that story, which took place in Greyhawk, the Demiplane of Dread, and the city of Sigil in Planescape, Vecna changed the format and makeup of the universe.
It just so happens that Forgotten Realm's cosmology changed at the same time due to "unknown factors, possibly a retcon", but we all know that Toril's cosmology changed because of Vecna.

[Naanomi]

Vecna lived as a mortal in -1747 CY
Karsus blew himself up -339 DR

Timelines between the two are hard to shake out, but if we trust Greenwood's stories over Ravenloft's mess of a timeline; and more than very convoluted meshes of Spelljammer Novels, then 1361 DR=581 CY (and progress up and down in synch), 780 calander years difference...

So...
Vecna lived in -1747 CY/-2527 DR, around the time the Great Glacier is created, the Drow are rising to power, and Raurin falls (Ioun dies around this time period and the Nether Scrolls are already in play)

Karsus died in 441 CY/-339 DR, not long after the free city of Greyhawk enters its first Golden Age. Vecna is dead at this point and his cult is still a few decades off from trying to raise him as a God

I think that is all accurateish

[eastmabl]

I love mixing up the pantheons. It's a homebrew world, so call it Planescape of Spelljammer and be done with it.

While this works in a home game, the OP is publishing through DM's Guild. Since you have to abide by the SRD and DM's Guild OGL, you have to be more careful.

Vecna is not part of any OGL, and Spelljammer/Greyhawk haven't been opened up as a setting through DMsG. You probably can't do this and publish on DMsG.

The recommendation of refluffing Myrkyl might be the best option.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vecna lived as a mortal in -1747 CY Karsus blew himself up -339 DR

Timelines between the two are hard to shake out, but if we trust Greenwood's stories over Ravenloft's mess of a timeline; and more than very convoluted meshes of Spelljammer Novels, then 1361 DR=581 CY (and progress up and down in synch), 780 calander years difference...

So... Vecna lived in -1747 CY/-2527 DR, around the time the Great Glacier is created, the Drow are rising to power, and Raurin falls (Ioun dies around this time period and the Nether Scrolls are already in play)

Karsus died in 441 CY/-339 DR, not long after the free city of Greyhawk enters its first Golden Age. Vecna is dead at this point and his cult is still a few decades off from trying to raise him as a God

I think that is all accurateish I'll buy that.
@Jack: I see your point. (One wonders if Fistandantilus ever met Vecna on another plane of existence ... )

[Coidzor]

Vecna and Karsus both arose in the distant past of their respective settings of origin.

Vecna is also a deity and not above chicanery like having gone back in time to ensure his coming into existence and apotheosis. Being a god is, in some ways, like having always been there but not having always been there yesterday, with "today" in the analogy being the date of apotheosis.

Karsus got erased from existence, IIRC.


Cheers, guess I was mixing up pantheons. Just a quick follow up from that - the Hand and Eye of Vecna would presumably only exist in Greyhawk settings?
"Also I thought Karsus bumping off a god was the reason spells were restricted to level 9 in all settings? Have I mixed something up?"
Many thanks
Daniel

That's just a fluff element from Forgotten Realms, as far as I can recall, level 10+ spells never existed for any of the other settings from the original D&D to AD&D 2e.

There weren't 10th level spells in 3e, but with Epic rules there were 10th level spell slots, largely for metamagic and having one's spell save DCs scale into Epic.

As for the Hand and Eye of Vecna popping up... That very much depends on whether this is a DM's game or an adventure seeking WOTC's seal of approval.

If the former, then it's easy to justify between all of the many, many ways of traveling between Oerth and Toril and Vecna's interest in shenanigans, secrecy, and trolling.

If the latter, that's probably unlikely to fly unless WOTC suddenly wants to bring back elements of Planescape.

[Inevitability]

Karsus got erased from existence, IIRC.

Well, mostly so. He 'survived' as a vestige.

[Naanomi]

Actually time travel is one of the few things dnd Gods are almost completely barred from; the Temporal Prime is a bad place for Powers and other methods of time travel have incredibly limited scope or are grossly unpredictable. Even Powers with the Time Portfolio/Domain meddle lightly in actual Time Travel

[Sigreid]

Actually time travel is one of the few things dnd Gods are almost completely barred from; the Temporal Prime is a bad place for Powers and other methods of time travel have incredibly limited scope or are grossly unpredictable. Even Powers with the Time Portfolio/Domain meddle lightly in actual Time Travel

This is good. The last thing D&D needs is the Star Trek habit of easy time travel.

[Norgrim Malgus]

This is good. The last thing D&D needs is the Star Trek habit of easy time travel.

Yeah, lol, once that happens, might as well create mirror universes for all worlds.

[Naanomi]

You can find 'Chronomancer' online for more detail on the subject

[Âmesang]

Injecting just a touch of Ur-Flan necromancy into this thread…

Vecna lived as a mortal in -1747 CY
Karsus blew himself up -339 DR

Timelines between the two are hard to shake out, but if we trust Greenwood's stories over Ravenloft's mess of a timeline; and more than very convoluted meshes of Spelljammer Novels, then 1361 DR=581 CY (and progress up and down in synch), 780 calander years difference...

So...
Vecna lived in -1747 CY/-2527 DR, around the time the Great Glacier is created, the Drow are rising to power, and Raurin falls (Ioun dies around this time period and the Nether Scrolls are already in play)

Karsus died in 441 CY/-339 DR, not long after the free city of Greyhawk enters its first Golden Age. Vecna is dead at this point and his cult is still a few decades off from trying to raise him as a God

I think that is all accurateish
Something about this seems backwards to me. :smallconfused: Admittedly I take my WORLD OF GREYHAWK® to FORGOTTEN REALMS® date conversion from a nice little article in DRAGON #241 which featured two letters to Mordenkainen related to each other; one from Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun written on Ches 12, 1369 DR, and the other by Johanna of Almor written on Wealsun 20, 585 CY: late winter/early spring and low summer, respectively.

So if Johanna's letter came after Khelben's in the same "year" (seeing as her's was written in response to K's being forwarded to her), then the Fall of Netheril, having occurred in –339 DR, would correspond to –1124 CY, taking into account that the Common Year calendar lacks a "0 CY." This would be approximately 700 years before the Twin Cataclysms eradicated the Suel Imperium and Baklunish Empire of Oerth.

This would infer that Karsus' birth year of –696 DR should correspond with –1481 CY, and Vecna's life as a mortal in –1747 CY should correspond with –962 DR, putting Vecna first.

In comparison, the Suel Imperium of Oerth (or at least its calendar) began in –4730 DR/–5515 CY, followed by the Netherese Empire of Toril (as the united villages of "Seventon") in –3859 DR/–4644 CY. Now I had always liked to imagine Vecna as one of those characters who rose to power "in the mists of time" before any calendar date, especially considering how long ago the Suel Imperium and Netherese Empire started, but it appears he's a bit "younger" than that, huh?