Intentional Deleveling

[glitterbaby]

Alright so if I'm not mistaken the rules do not allow you to cast a spell with an XP component if the amount of XP paid would bring you below the minimum for your level. You can't delevel. My DM has been wondering about the ramifications of allowing a caster to do so. Is this too strong? Is this even strong? Apart from the annoyance lowering a few numbers and removing a few abilities in combat, what problems do you think we might run into?

Once again, any and all help is greatly appreciated! Big thanks in advance!

[dascarletm]

Alright so if I'm not mistaken the rules do not allow you to cast a spell with an XP component if the amount of XP paid would bring you below the minimum for your level. You can't delevel. My DM has been wondering about the ramifications of allowing a caster to do so. Is this too strong? Is this even strong? Apart from the annoyance lowering a few numbers and removing a few abilities in combat, what problems do you think we might run into?

Once again, any and all help is greatly appreciated! Big thanks in advance!

Would the character be required to take the class/prestige class they had before when they level back up?

Also, same questions for feats/skills/any other choice.

[Starbuck_II]

Actual delevel or a permanent negative level?

Actual delevel cons:
lowers ECL
Redo skill points
Redo feats if odd level or even fighter level, etc
Redo spells known if casters (2 for wizard, different if spontaneous)

Permanent Negative level till buy it off with EXP:
Just penalties that are easy to understand.
Since doesn't lower ECL, harder to get XP.

[Douglas]

I have heard tales (well, mostly just read jokes about it in comics) of extreme powergamers intentionally deleveling and releveling themselves in order to reroll the hit die for the level so they'd always get maximum (or at least close to it) hit points.

Short of such absurd fiddly tricks, the problem is much more about bookkeeping nuisance, having to recalculate all your stats and abilities, than about how powerful it is.

[Eloel]

Redo spells known if casters (2 for wizard, different if spontaneous)

I don't think the spells get erased from the spellbook. So by going up and down an XP at the limit, a wizard can get all wizard spells in their spellbook.

[Telonius]

Also on the "pro" side: Githyanki and Risen Martyrs get to hang around a bit longer.

[Âmesang]

In preparation for… whatever future game I might play… I'm adding to one character's backstory a lost and reclaimed character level (via restoration).

I use average hit points, and this is more of an in-game way of explaining why the character is at the minimum number of experience points for the character's level.

…now I just need a way to explain why the character's wealth matches the Wealth By Level table. :smalltongue:

[Malimar]

There are a fair number of known shenanigans to the tune of "get a wight to eat some of your levels, fail the saves to remove the negative levels, pick new and different levels when you level back up", most commonly to get rid of racial hit dice. The proposed change could allow such shenanigans without the messy and dangerous business of involving a wight.

[LTwerewolf]

If you get to choose which levels are lost, it's a great way to get rid of RHD.

[atemu1234]

I have heard tales (well, mostly just read jokes about it in comics) of extreme powergamers intentionally deleveling and releveling themselves in order to reroll the hit die for the level so they'd always get maximum (or at least close to it) hit points.

Short of such absurd fiddly tricks, the problem is much more about bookkeeping nuisance, having to recalculate all your stats and abilities, than about how powerful it is.

Honestly, why don't they just ask the DM if they can do that? It's not like it's a horribly broken thing. It's like the second most common houserule.

[Thurbane]

If you get to choose which levels are lost, it's a great way to get rid of RHD.

I know this may fly by RAW, but in my group it would be strictly enforced that lost RHD must be replaced with an equal number of RHD before class levels could be taken.

Each to their own, of course...

[glitterbaby]

Would the character be required to take the class/prestige class they had before when they level back up?

Also, same questions for feats/skills/any other choice.

I'm nearly positive my DM would require the same class/prc/feat/skills to be chosen again on level up. I'm sure everyone at the table would do so anyway.

So then general consensus is that the biggest concern is just the annoying bookkeeping?

[LTwerewolf]

I know this may fly by RAW, but in my group it would be strictly enforced that lost RHD must be replaced with an equal number of RHD before class levels could be taken.

Each to their own, of course...

At the point where you're able to reliably do this, you'll find the RHD are a disproportionately large tax for the minor thing it would give. Try it sometime and notice how balance pretty much doesn't change, but the person with RHD gets to have class features.

[Necroticplague]

There's some tricks to be done with giving yourself lycanthropy, then curing yourself of it, that's kinda like like deleveling. You can use the RHD from Lycanthrope to qualify for a PRC, take levels until the PRC self-qualifies, then cure yourself of the lycanthropy to have your PRC to have saved you some 'normal' levels.

[Bronk]

I'm nearly positive my DM would require the same class/prc/feat/skills to be chosen again on level up. I'm sure everyone at the table would do so anyway.

So then general consensus is that the biggest concern is just the annoying bookkeeping?

Well, here's another problem... There'd be nothing stopping a magic user to craft something that needed a whole lot more XP than normal, or to wish for something normally far out of their reach (wishing for a magic item normally costs 5000XP plus double the normal XP cost to make the item).

On top of that, nothing would be stopping them from then using a thought bottle to relevel again, over and over...

Then, if thought bottles are banned, they might find themselves too low of a level to get XP from their own adventuring party!

[glitterbaby]

Well, here's another problem... There'd be nothing stopping a magic user to craft something that needed a whole lot more XP than normal, or to wish for something normally far out of their reach (wishing for a magic item normally costs 5000XP plus double the normal XP cost to make the item).

On top of that, nothing would be stopping them from then using a thought bottle to relevel again, over and over...

Then, if thought bottles are banned, they might find themselves too low of a level to get XP from their own adventuring party!

And the thought bottles have been banned and we're also looking to actually play this so there isn't going to be any of the silly cheesy stuff that everyone has been bringing up. I was just curious if I were missing anything.

[Zanos]

At the point where you're able to reliably do this, you'll find the RHD are a disproportionately large tax for the minor thing it would give. Try it sometime and notice how balance pretty much doesn't change, but the person with RHD gets to have class features.
This breaks on anything with racial class features. Like Black Ethergaunts.

[MesiDoomstalker]

This breaks on anything with racial class features. Like Black Ethergaunts.

While true, such monsters are still absolutely crippled by LA. There are very few creatures whose RHD/LA combo are worth it and almost all of them are in the ECL 3 or less range.

[LTwerewolf]

This breaks on anything with racial class features. Like Black Ethergaunts.

Black ethergaunts are ECL 20 when they start. Wizards are doing more horrible things 5 levels ago.

[OldTrees1]

While true, such monsters are still absolutely crippled by LA. There are very few creatures whose RHD/LA combo are worth it and almost all of them are in the ECL 3 or less range.

Sounds like a content problem not a structure problem. Give monsters the appropriate RHD/LA rather than give free reign for those with an appropriate RHD/LA to reduce that below what is appropriate.

Don't charge those undeserving of a charge, and don't reward those undeserving of a reward. Simple good design practice.

[Zanos]

Black ethergaunts are ECL 20 when they start. Wizards are doing more horrible things 5 levels ago.
I was under the impression you were suggesting removing RHD.

[LTwerewolf]

I was under the impression you were suggesting removing RHD.

When using level drain to do it, yes. This means the character has to start the game with them.

[digiman619]

I have heard tales (well, mostly just read jokes about it in comics) of extreme powergamers intentionally deleveling and releveling themselves in order to reroll the hit die for the level so they'd always get maximum (or at least close to it) hit points.

If that's what you want, you should just use Pathfinder's retraining rules. It's a lot easier to spend 30 x Class Level gp and 3 days per point rather than muck about with de-leveling shenanigans.