Champion Fighter Questions

[Mongobear]

Just curious how the expanded critical range from Champion measures up on the DPR charts compared to other archetypes/classes. I really like the idea and fluff behind Champion, but it just seems so bland compared to Battlemaster and other classes that can deliver the damage.

[CantigThimble]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?398053-In-Defense-of-the-Champion) thread should have the data you're looking for.

[Theodoxus]

Just curious how the expanded critical range from Champion measures up on the DPR charts compared to other archetypes/classes. I really like the idea and fluff behind Champion, but it just seems so bland compared to Battlemaster and other classes that can deliver the damage.

Anecdotal, but my experience is it's a blast for those who love critting. Not that crits are the end all be all of combat effectiveness... but if you can pile on more dice (sneak, smite, hex/hunter's mark) then they feel pretty epic indeed.

[Pex]

The Champion is passive in its abilities, but that is not an inherently bad thing. It's a matter of personal preference. Some people want the "simplicity" it offers. They don't want to agonize over whether or not for this particular turn to use up a resource let alone which among their resources to use. They don't want to feel impatient waiting for the next short and/or long rest to get back their class features. Colloquial you don't have to like the class, but that is not the same thing as saying it's terrible, no one should play it, and it should not even exist, to speak in the extreme.

[GlenSmash!]

I have players that find complexity beyond a champion to be daunting.

As a side note, A half-orc Champion/Barbarian multiclass can better take advantage of those that expanded crit range with Reckless attack for on demand Advantage, and Extra damage dice on crits.

[RickAllison]

I have players that find complexity beyond a champion to be daunting.

As a side note, A half-orc Champion/Barbarian multiclass can better take advantage of those that expanded crit range with Reckless attack for on demand Advantage, and Extra damage dice on crits.

As can a Paladin. Doubling his chance to get a Divine Smite critical is a great boost (if not always useful).

[MrStabby]

Champions are OK, if for some people a little dull to play. Everything they do could have been done by another character.

I like champions though if you combine them with another class that you like the abilities of. Rogue is superb as an example, or throw in some caster levels if you want.

[Gtdead]

From an optimization standpoint, critical range isn't that important for a fighter. It doesn't increase the damage from attribute modifiers and feats and this is a problem because they usually account for more than 50% of the damage you deal. Which makes crit chance scale badly for dpr.

If it worked like it does in videogames, doubling your damage, then perhaps it would be useful, making 1% crit chance equal to 1% dpr increase. But at it's current state it's way less than that.

[Malifice]

They really shine on longer adventuring days, or when rests are hard to come by. Half Orc GWM with a greataxe for the win.

At higher levels you're spamming a 15 percent chance of a crit per swing, and making 3 swings per round from 11th level. If you can nab yourself advantage on a 18-20 crit chance, your chance of a crit increases to a whopping 27.75 percent chance per swing.

With those odds, you should be scoring a crit every 2 or so rounds on average dealing an extra +2d12 damage per crit, and triggering an extra attack via GWM. 5E combats are around 6 rounds long, granting you an extra +6d12 damage per encounter.

With around 2.5 encounters per short rest, youre looking at being around +10d12 crit damage short rest compared to other Fighters (not including extra attacks via GWM), so youre about on par with high level BM fighters.

I'd prefer it if remarkable athlete was additive to Str, Dex and Con checks instead of how it is written (i.e half expertise rather than half jack of all trades) but they're a perfectly fine archetype that really suits a particular player and play style.

[RickAllison]

From an optimization standpoint, critical range isn't that important for a fighter. It doesn't increase the damage from attribute modifiers and feats and this is a problem because they usually account for more than 50% of the damage you deal. Which makes crit chance scale badly for dpr.

If it worked like it does in videogames, doubling your damage, then perhaps it would be useful, making 1% crit chance equal to 1% dpr increase. But at it's current state it's way less than that.

Very good point. It is a far better ability for classes with more rolls for damage (rogues, paladins, etc.) so it seems rather misplaced.

[Reaper34]

from a rp standpoint it makes more sense for lower int fighters. you know what strikes work but it doesn't require a lot of thought. it's a good way to reflect a low int character by a high int player. also good for carreer foot soldier. he's not giving orders or casting spells but he is a professional.

[Mongobear]

from a rp standpoint it makes more sense for lower int fighters. you know what strikes work but it doesn't require a lot of thought. it's a good way to reflect a low int character by a high int player. also good for carreer foot soldier. he's not giving orders or casting spells but he is a professional.

Lol, this is actually almost the exact character I was planning on making...

A small except from his backstory:

"Armed with just his trusty halberd, "Mathilda," Ragnus cares little for the flashy attacks or fancy acrobatics of his allies or enemy combatants, for he knows that all it takes to win a fight is patience and one solid strike from Mathilda and the battle will be won."

[Malifice]

Lol, this is actually almost the exact character I was planning on making...

A small except from his backstory:

"Armed with just his trusty halberd, "Mathilda," Ragnus cares little for the flashy attacks or fancy acrobatics of his allies or enemy combatants, for he knows that all it takes to win a fight is patience and one solid strike from Mathilda and the battle will be won."

Ragnus summarises his theory thus: 'RAGNUS SMASH!'.

[djreynolds]

First Mongobear, awesome. I love the playing the champion.

Second, I've critted, is that a word, like less than 30 times with my champion.

Third, think American Football Linebacker. Sometimes you must rush the QB, or tackle the running back, or cover the receiver. So do not dump str or dex.

Some people are polearm master experts, but what you need is advantage. More chances to hit, and to roll with advantage.

But I play a champion with a high strength, 14 in dex at least, his con, resilient wisdom is a must, and feats that make you versatile.

So party up with a shield master rogue, or barbarian, ambush and stealth, etc. You need Advantage. Even grab barbarian for reckless attack.

And have feats to allow you to fight with anything and anywhere, you specialize in versatility. Rogue and barbarian are great little dips.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Very good point. It is a far better ability for classes with more rolls for damage (rogues, paladins, etc.) so it seems rather misplaced.

I always thought that if I was going to make champion more exciting while sticking to their theme of passive abilities, I'd give them something like the Barbarian's Brutal Critical so it was more of a big deal when your roll of 18 or 19 was a critical hit.

[Malifice]

I always thought that if I was going to make champion more exciting while sticking to their theme of passive abilities, I'd give them something like the Barbarian's Brutal Critical so it was more of a big deal when your roll of 18 or 19 was a critical hit.

Refluff a half orc (or just play one) and youre golden.

[djreynolds]

Expertise is athletics is the key. Give an attack or get shield master and shove and roll with advantage. Not that I ever get crits. It just so much fun to "disable" people with that shield bash. To easy not to grab a level of rogue for me at 6th level or 12th. And we give max damage dice and then roll the next.

[Vogonjeltz]

Just curious how the expanded critical range from Champion measures up on the DPR charts compared to other archetypes/classes. I really like the idea and fluff behind Champion, but it just seems so bland compared to Battlemaster and other classes that can deliver the damage.

Champion has the best sustained DPR of any class because of the crit range increase. Other classes have better burst damage and can gain a temporary damage advantage from that. So really it's just a question of, old reliable, or flash in the pan burst.