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Neon Knight
2007-06-20, 04:13 PM
Okay. I really stink at optimization and building characters in general, so here I am appealing for advice.

I've decided on playing a Swashbuckler. I have little to no idea how to play one, other than to try to look as cool as possible.

I've got a 34 point buy with a +2 to Dex and Con. ECL is 6, so my class levels total 5. 13000 starting gold. (Yes, I'm a Hobgoblin. No complaining.)

I'd love to mix in some Tome of Battle, but sadly it is not allowed. :smallmad:

I've got Complete Warrior, the Core, the SRD, and Tome of Battle (Not that I can use it. :smallmad: )

I have only the roughest idea of how I',m supposed to use this guy in combat. Most of the enemies in this campaign will be Humanoid, so I'm thinking disarm/trip? I don't know.

The whole time I'm designing this guy, I can't help but think I could do a whole lot better with a few levels of warblade or swordsage. Did I mention I was cheesed off at no Tome of Battle? :smallfurious:

My basic plan so far is to just take 5 straight levels of Swashbuckler, pumping INT, STR, DEX, and CON. I don't quite understand how I'm going to survive without some kind of bonus to armor (for example, from monk or Swordsage), but medium armor negates my class abilities. Might have to pull out some Mithral.

Anybody got any bright ideas, or a way to do this better?

Draz74
2007-06-20, 04:18 PM
I'd go Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 2. Eventually this will become Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 4 / Duelist 10 / Rogue 2.

This is especially true if you can convince the DM to let you use Daring Outlaw (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Daring_Outlaw,CS) from the Complete Scoundrel, in spite of the fact that you don't have the book. But even if you don't have this feat, a Swashbuckler/Rogue is a fun, pirate-y (or not pirate-y), decent build.

EDIT: Duelist eventually gives you that AC bonus you're looking for.

Dark_Wind
2007-06-20, 04:30 PM
I'd love to mix in some Tome of Battle, but sadly it is not allowed. :smallmad:

Really? Is it because your GM hasn't looked at it well enough and isn't sure about it? Or is it because he just doesn't want to have to go through the hassle of learning a new ability system?

If the former, offer to lend it to him for a while; try to get him to read it. It's one of the best sourcebooks to come out in a very long while, in terms of both balance and sheer awesome.

I agree with Draz on build. You never want to take Swashbuckler too far. Level 3 gives you Int to damage, and afterthat it gets bleh. Rogue is good, as it gives you skills and bonus damage. If you go that way, be sure you have a flanking partner whenever possible. I'd suggest Two Weapon Fighting, but Duelist prohibits it. Duelist gives Int to AC and Elaborate Parry (crazy AC bonus when fighting defensively), though, so it is definitely worth it.

Sonofaspectre
2007-06-20, 05:29 PM
Really, when you come down to it, it all depends on what you want to play. Are you the lucky pirate type, the Errol Flynn type (like my current Halfling Swashbuckler), or the Tricky Combater.

Lucky Pirate, or the Jack Sparrow, then you need to pick up Rogue and go Daring Outlaw.
Errol Flynn, pick up some Ranger or Fighter, or even just stay Swashbuckler (maybe get the Wainwright ((sp?)) Captain from the Eberron book at later levels).
Tricky Combater, go Fighter and Daring Warrior (which by the by, you can take with one of your Fighter bonus feats, saving time and effort!). Then you will be a disarming, feinting, triping, parrying fool in combat, better than a Monk ever could fill the role.

Once you know what you wanna do with the guy, that is the way you should proceed.

P.S. The two Daring feats are in Complete Scoundrel, but I can't think of any DMs who do not allow THIS book.

Draz74
2007-06-20, 05:37 PM
P.S. The two Daring feats are in Complete Scoundrel, but I can't think of any DMs who do not allow THIS book.

... unless they don't have it.

No one disallows it for being too powerful, I'll grant you that.

Of course, even if they don't own the book, it seems the feats in question can stand on their own (i.e. not Luck feats or feats that deal with skill tricks), and can be found online.

Sonofaspectre
2007-06-20, 05:42 PM
My point exactly, my good Draz.

Neon Knight
2007-06-20, 05:44 PM
The concept I was going for was basically a fencing master. A front line combatant wearing light to no armor using rapiers to slaughter his foes with precision, all the while insulting their lack of class in a thick Germanic accent. I guess Errol Flynn comes closest.

If Tome of Battle were allowed, I'd go with Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 2. Maybe Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 2. Iron Heart has a couple of sweet maneuvers that fit like a glove, but for the most part I'd be using Diamond Mind maneuvers.

The reason Tome of Battle is disallowed is that the DM feels it makes the other melee classes redundant and obsolete.

I'm rather worried about surviving, as Duelist won't do me much good if the Lizardmen and dinosaurs eat me before I can take a single level in the class. Maybe I'm not in the right mindset for the class, but I'm not seeing how I'm going to survive with the armor class I'm getting, especially as a melee combatant. I'm used to playing full plate fighters, knights, warblades, and swordsages, and I keep looking at my total combat abilities and shaking my head. I'm close to shelving this until I can get some ToB love.

Talya
2007-06-20, 05:54 PM
I'm close to shelving this until I can get some ToB love.

Str: 10
Dex: 18 (includes +2 from race)
Con: 16 (includes +2 from race)
Int: 18 (includes +1 from level)
Wis: 11
Cha: 10

(You might edit that further, I don't like ability scores under 10.)

Take Swashbuckler to 3, rogue 2. Take the daring outlaw feat. Plan for duellist PrC. You've got decent armor class, you can wear a chain shirt and have +4 from dex for 18 armor class. If you can get mithral on a chain shirt (only +1000 gold in cost) you could easily pump that dex up to 20 to start with, although intelligence will do you more good in the long term, so I'm reluctant to suggest it.

Sonofaspectre
2007-06-20, 05:58 PM
Well, you have Complete Warrior, so my suggestion would be Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2. That gives you Weapon Finesse, Grace, Dodge, and then 4 other feats to go combat-tastic with. I'd suggest going with High Dex to take advantage of Attacks of Opportunity. Then for the other feats (one for first level, one for third, then two fighter bonus feats) go Weapon Focus (Rapier), Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility. Then when you hit Level 6 (put it in Fighter to avoid a dead level) get Elusive Target.

Let's say you Max out Dex to 18. This gives you light armor (Masterwork Chain Shirt) for +4 AC, +4 Dex AC, a masterwork buckler shield for +1, +2 for Dodge bonuses (or one to two different combatants), for a grand total of 21. Take total defense and let people enter your squares for stupid Elustive Target and Attack of Oppurtunity things, take advantage of Bluff for some feints, and you have a stupid damage dealer (roughly 3-9 or 6-12 each attack, depending on flat-flooted and whatnot) as well as not having to deal with power attacks, being flanked, and have a good amount of battlefield control. And, this whole build is Complete Warrior/Sourcebook friendly!

Talya
2007-06-20, 06:02 PM
I saw in a sourcebook once (it might have been 3.0) a "Parrying dagger" or Main Gauche which granted a +2 bonus of some type (shield or dodge, i forget) to armor class while held (You don't need to actually attack with it, so you don't need TWF to use it.) It seems more..."swashbucklery" than a shield...

Talya
2007-06-20, 06:06 PM
Well, you have Complete Warrior, so my suggestion would be Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2.

I'm fairly sure there's a feat that lets fighter and swashbuckler levels stack for fighter feat progression and some swashbucklery abilities too.

Sonofaspectre
2007-06-20, 06:13 PM
I'm fairly sure there's a feat that lets fighter and swashbuckler levels stack for fighter feat progression and some swashbucklery abilities too.

Yeah, Daring Warrior, which is in Complete Scoundrel. That would be a little bit later, which I do have plans for him, if he wants them. Just wanted to see what Kasrkin thought of what I got written down so far. Because it will soon get much much stupider. (Weapon Specialization next level of fighter, then @ 9 - which is with two more Fighter levels, get Daring Warrior and Improved Feint/Greater Weapon Focus.)

Talya
2007-06-20, 06:46 PM
So in theory, with a few levels of rogue, a few levels of fighter, and a lot of levels of swashbuckler, you could get most of the advantages of all three classes.

(which might still suck, but it'd be fun.)

Sonofaspectre
2007-06-20, 06:50 PM
True, in theory, but remember, that makes all the combos happen later in the level-up, takes up more feats to make it work effectively - I count at least three, which is much more than the one for just a two-er multiclass - and it then brings up problems with Multi-classing itself, since the Hobgoblin's favored class is fighter, that isn't a problem until a third class shows up. Not to mention that the character in question gets lost under the optimization.

::looks back:: Well ... that as a bit preachier than I expected it to be.

Talya
2007-06-20, 07:18 PM
the Hobgoblin's favored class is fighter

Uhh...yeah. Works much better for a human.

I was just suddenly coming up with neat ideas for pain-in-the-ass semi-antagonistic NPCs for my swashbuckling campaign.

Sonofaspectre
2007-06-20, 07:23 PM
::shrug:: It is what he wanted.

Neon Knight
2007-06-20, 07:30 PM
Mkay. I guess Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2. Closest I'm gonna get. He'll allow anything from any WotC except ToB. I'm nearly beside myself in rage.

So, attribute set up any different than Tayla's proposal? I'd also like to see that long term plan you had. Thanks in advance, sonofaspectre. Without you, I'd probably still be complaining about the lack of ToB instead of getting somewhere. Also Thanks to Tayla. The scoundrel swashbuckler just doesn't appeal to me, but I do thank you for your time.

goat
2007-06-20, 07:37 PM
Deadly defence. +1D6 damage while fighting defensively. Smack your dex up high to boost your defence and attack to counter the BAB loss from fighting defensively. It also blends well with the duelist 7th level ability.

Then flank, flank like a defensive but deadly fool. Maybe some fighter dipping for plenty of combat feat joy, and then take daring warrior.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-20, 07:46 PM
The reason Tome of Battle is disallowed is that the DM feels it makes the other melee classes redundant and obsolete.

Like a wizard, cleric, or druid will do for all other classes. Not to mention IotSV, MotAO, etc.

Sonofaspectre
2007-06-20, 07:47 PM
Uhh, I am unfamiliar with point-buy as a whole, but I can give you what I think:

STR - You can dump a little here, because of your Hobgoblin status, but probably around a +1/+2 to combat, etc.
DEX - 18, to get all the defense you can have
CON - Again, a dumper really, since you got d10s and +2 for race. Around a 13/14 should do
INT - 18. Go for it, play that super intelligent, witty fighter
CHAR - All depends on how you like to play. Make him obnoxious with a low CHAR, an anti-face if you will, or make him the face itself.

As for future plans, once you hit 10, if you can, go into that Eberron Prestige class I was talking about, Wainwright Captain. Call and command an airship at will. Sweet. If not, just stick with good ole fighter, unless you want to branch out into some other Prestiges. Pick up some Kensai to get a better weapon if your DM has wealth problems. Get Occult Slayer if your Big Bad is a mage of some kind - still works with Kensai! ... :smallredface: Other prestige classes you could just pick as you went for story purposes.

Feats, well, I got plenty to help with the build you already have. I'll just list them with a brief reason why.

- Deadly Defense from Complete Scoundrel to strike even more damage.
- Defensive Strike from Complete Warrior for more insane comboing with Total Defense actions.
- Flick of the Wrist from Complete Warrior to make sure you get those Insightful Strikes.
- Karmic Strike from Complete Warrior just to piss off the people who you do decide to let hit you.
- Spring Attack to Whirlwind Attack from Player's Handbook, because you know that would be cool ... run in or swing in on a rope, whirlwind attack, then take a defensive stance and let your rapier Attack of Opportunity them to death.
- The whole Weapon Focus tree from PHB and PHB II. That doesn't need to be explained, I don't think.
- The whole Combat Expertise tree from the same books. Also pretty self explanatory.

As far as optimizing, you are set to level 9. Then, let your game guide you where you need to go.

By the way, I like the Hobgoblin version. It is very cool, and a neat way to take the class. Like I said, I got my Halfling doing similar stuff, but I needed the +2 DEX to do it. Your Hobbo will be famous for sure!

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-20, 07:55 PM
Careful with the Weapon Focus tree! It's a trap! At later levels, +2 to hit/+4to damage is just pitiful, especially when it costs four feats.

Talya
2007-06-20, 07:58 PM
Careful with the Weapon Focus tree! It's a trap! At later levels, +2 to hit/+4to damage is just pitiful, especially when it costs four feats.

usually true, yes.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-20, 08:01 PM
Admittedly, I've taken Weapon Focus on occasion. The +1 often comes in handy.

I do draw the line there, though. Any further is really unnecessary.

Talya
2007-06-20, 08:02 PM
If you're dual weilding, and you qualify for weapon specialization, and for whatever reason you already have weapon focus, weapon specialization is worth a feat, easily. Those are big "ifs" though.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-20, 08:10 PM
If you're dual weilding, and you qualify for weapon specialization, and for whatever reason you already have weapon focus, weapon specialization is worth a feat, easily. Those are big "ifs" though.

Meh, even then it's mediocre.


I'm surprised no-one has mentioned going for the Dervish PrC yet.

Talya
2007-06-20, 08:15 PM
There are enough dervish threads, and I love the class. Wanted to avoid getting a fangirl reputation. ;)