Unintentional Spell usages

[Aleolus]

So, I'm curious. What are some ways that casters can use their spells that, while clearly not how the designers had intended them to be used, would still be appropriate. I'm also not looking for über powerful usages, just unusual ones you might not think of. For instance:

The Heal spell would either be an aborticant, or would trigger a miscarriage when cast on a pregnant woman. The reason? The spell specifies that it kills any parasites afflicting the creature it is cast on. A parasite is defined as any organism that draws nourishment from another creature, while providing the other creature no benefits whatsoever. By this definition, a developing fetus is a parasite, therefore would be killed by an application of Heal or Mass Heal.

[Morcleon]

So, I'm curious. What are some ways that casters can use their spells that, while clearly not how the designers had intended them to be used, would still be appropriate. I'm also not looking for über powerful usages, just unusual ones you might not think of. For instance:

The Heal spell would either be an aborticant, or would trigger a miscarriage when cast on a pregnant woman. The reason? The spell specifies that it kills any parasites afflicting the creature it is cast on. A parasite is defined as any organism that draws nourishment from another creature, while providing the other creature no benefits whatsoever. By this definition, a developing fetus is a parasite, therefore would be killed by an application of Heal or Mass Heal.

Said fetus would only be categorized as a parasite if the mother didn't want it. If it's a wanted child, then it would provide the joy of knowing that you'll be having a child. :smalltongue:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Kids are parasites until they're almost 20 years old, and sometimes even after. Does that mean you should never use the heal spell on anyone until they leave their parents' basement?

Anyway, planar bubble can be used as an even more powerful time stop, depending on what plane you're originally from. Note that time stop prevents you from interacting with creatures while in effect. If you're from a plane with a fast enough time dilation, you get all the benefits of time stop for even longer, but without that restriction. And two spell levels early. It can also be used as an even more potent antimagic field. AMFs can't affect deific magic, but planar bubble can, if you're native to The Concordant Domain of the Outlands and emulate the area near the Spire, under Sigil. It also has a lot of other potential effects, depending on what other plane you might hail from.

Also, see acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a). Pretty much any thread on the internet will tell you exactly why I mention it.

[Jormengand]

Bestow curse allows any effect in line with its stated abilities in terms of power. Buffing your party isn't intrinsically more or less powerful than nerfing enemies, so you can throw curses on people which are actually helpful, like a 50% chance to get an extra round of actions each turn.

Create Water is a surprisingly effective ability to destroy buildings by flooding. Because it also creates a decent mass of water, it can be used as a half-decent weapon - at first level, it's not gonna deal damage unless you're 60 feet above your opponent (or at least 35 if you aim up). However, at 18th level, you can deal 7d6 damage over an area with a decent aim, and because you can shape the effect, you can exclude yourself and your allies, dropping a block of water which smashes into your enemies from the heavens. Not amazing, no, but nice for a cantrip, especially if your DM decides that Fell Drain works on it.

You can use Message to make someone "Hear voices" and it doesn't allow a save and works through two and three quarter feet of wood. Sending can be used the same way, though it's a bit more involved.

You've just activated the self-destruct system (there's always a self-destruct system). You realise you don't have time to escape. Never fear, you just need to spend 10 of those minutes casting Sepia Snake Sigil, then read it and fail your save on purpose.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You've just activated the self-destruct system (there's always a self-destruct system). You realise you don't have time to escape. Never fear, you just need to spend 10 of those minutes casting Sepia Snake Sigil, then read it and fail your save on purpose.
[Someone who reads the sigil and fails the save] can be damaged by outside forces (and perhaps even killed), since the field provides no protection against physical injury.Oddly enough, the original intent of Rope Trick is probably something like this, though at this point it might count as an obscure use.

Clerics without particular domains or other tricks lack the Teleport line. They do, however, get Plane Shift at 5 and Greater Plane Shift at 7, making for what is effectively a two-step Greater Teleport.

Cast Dominate Person on yourself and your (perhaps too-trusting) friends, with the following ongoing command: "Act as you normally would as though you were not under the effect of a domination spell." Lasts days/level, gives you good sense-sharing intel, and most importantly gives you decent protection against anyone else trying to dominate you or the party, via the clause on conflicting orders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects) leading to opposed Charisma checks (obviously works better if a sorcerer's doing it). Note: Protection from Evil is minutes/level, and Mind Blank is 8th level.

[Aleolus]

Said fetus would only be categorized as a parasite if the mother didn't want it. If it's a wanted child, then it would provide the joy of knowing that you'll be having a child. :smalltongue:


Kids are parasites until they're almost 20 years old, and sometimes even after. Does that mean you should never use the heal spell on anyone until they leave their parents' basement?

Biologically, a fetus gives nothing back, regardless of if the mother wants it or not. And again, biologically, once born it is no longer doing so (unless you want to count breastfeeding, in which case it might apply if the child is feeding when the spell is cast)

[Troacctid]

Vigilant slumber is intended to wake you up if you're attacked in the night or something. However, you can set any kind of condition, and it wakes you up fully alert, which means it also doubles as your alarm clock ("Wake me at 6:30 AM") and your morning coffee.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Vigilant slumber is intended to wake you up if you're attacked in the night or something. However, you can set any kind of condition, and it wakes you up fully alert, which means it also doubles as your alarm clock ("Wake me at 6:30 AM") and your morning coffee.It also wakes you up any time you are knocked unconscious, including from magical effects.

"Oh, the unresistable greater artifact of the god Morpheus knocked out every creature on the planet so the dream worlders could take over? Well I'm awake, and I feel great!"

[Necroticplague]

I've used Temporal Reiteration's augment to extend the duration of debuffs on my enemies. Especially if you combine with some "compensates nastiness of condition with short length of it". Like pretty much anything that dazes, stuns, or staggers.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Lots of Personal-only spells, when affected by a weapon with the spellblade enhancement, since said weapon allows you to redirect the effects to someone else.

Tenser's transformation, for instance, completely nullifies any arcane caster's ability to function, no Concentration or caster level check, no attack roll, no SR, no save, no nuthin'. Just cast it on yourself, redirect the effect at your enemy, and laugh as he tries and fails to cast anything at all. Doesn't affect items or contingencies, though.

Antimagic field. Much like an arcane archer using imbue arrow to fire AMFs at enemies, you can do this, as well.

Transcend mortality gives your opponent a buff for a few rounds, followed by inescapable death. Since there's no SR, save, etc, this is one way to absolutely ensure that an opponent dies. There are ways to deal with it, but they have to be ready for it ahead of time. And if you want to hasten their death, a targeted dispel automatically ends the spell's duration, thereby killing your foe, with no way to avoid.

[Pex]

Bestow curse allows any effect in line with its stated abilities in terms of power. Buffing your party isn't intrinsically more or less powerful than nerfing enemies, so you can throw curses on people which are actually helpful, like a 50% chance to get an extra round of actions each turn.


My party was preparing to fight advanced templated troglodyte creatures we fought before. We knew about their stench ability which caused us problems. My oracle had the solution. I had cast Bestow Curse on each party member. The curse was to lose sense of smell. Add in Freedom of Movement to avoid their grappling, the creatures were toast. Of course I also had Remove Curse. :smallamused: My favorite part was Cursing the paladin.

[AvatarVecna]

My home DM has banned me from combining Wall Of Stone, Animate Object, and Stone To Flesh to create walls that scream when you stab them.

[Necroticplague]

My home DM has banned me from combining Wall Of Stone, Animate Object, and Stone To Flesh to create walls that scream when you stab them.

On a similar note, Fabricate to make statues, Stone to Flesh to turn statues into corpses, then Animate dead for ethical-problem free necromancy!

Or Flesh to Stone, (Things that modify rock), then Stone to Flesh can have result varying from horrifying, to hilarious, to flavorful (once had a character in a 3.p game who used Gloves of Shaping+this to do incision-free plastic surgery).

[ATHATH]

Dark Way can be used as an oddly shaped Wall of Force.

Persistent Spell breaks a lot of spells, like Holy Star (be a Warlock with a free-action Eldritch Blast for a day!) and Wraithstrike.

The Ordained Champion PrC lets you channel any spell into a melee attack and apply its effects to your target. This allows you to apply spells like Tenser's Transformation (no spellcasting for you!), that one spell that sets your level for rebuking equal to that of a Cleric of your Paladin level (which denies non-paladins their ability to Turn/Rebuke Undead), and that Wu Jen spell that kills you at the end of its duration.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mount makes for a great "animal companion," doorstop, and corridor-blocking aid.

The dark way spell is similar, and it's unbreakable and blocks incorporeals, to boot.

[edit] Dark way'd! (Because "mount'd" just sounds wrong. Of course, I mount'd ATHATH before then, so...)

[atemu1234]

Any spell that grants a damaging aura can turn the caster into a potent ranged projectile weapon.

[Necroticplague]

On a related note to Mount, there's it's upgrade, Regal Procession. Intended to give the whole party mounts for one spell. Instead, I've found it's basically Wall of Horses.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Since salt is, for all intents and purposes, directly analagous to silver in all ways (including the fact that you can use it as money directly) aside from edibility, flesh to salt and wall of salt are basically spells for literally making money.

[ATHATH]

Since salt is, for all intents and purposes, directly analagous to silver in all ways (including the fact that you can use it as money directly) aside from edibility, flesh to salt and wall of salt are basically spells for literally making money.
Does that mean that salt weapons can bypass DR/Silver?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Does that mean that salt weapons can bypass DR/Silver?I imagine blinding your opponents with a handful of rock salt would bypass DR, yes. :smalltongue:

[Ramza00]

So, I'm curious. What are some ways that casters can use their spells that, while clearly not how the designers had intended them to be used, would still be appropriate. I'm also not looking for über powerful usages, just unusual ones you might not think of. For instance:

The Heal spell would either be an aborticant, or would trigger a miscarriage when cast on a pregnant woman. The reason? The spell specifies that it kills any parasites afflicting the creature it is cast on. A parasite is defined as any organism that draws nourishment from another creature, while providing the other creature no benefits whatsoever. By this definition, a developing fetus is a parasite, therefore would be killed by an application of Heal or Mass Heal.

**bangs head against the wall**, I apologize before I start but I am going to be very rude depending on the reason you made this thread.

You do not understand language and the limits of language to describe the distinction of phenomena and effects if you think like this, and your thinking is in a serious manner and not just in jest.

Just because man says something is X does not mean its X it may mean that man has not crafted the perfect descriptive words to describe it or man's understanding of a phenomena is flawed and it is describe an effect and not the true principle in its environment. Aka you do not understand Naming Magic

Put another way stop trying to kill catgirls by bringing your own understanding of how the world works into an environment that works in a completely different system.

-----

Under your logic you would destroy the genitals of any male or female creature if you cast heal, or you destroy the gut bacteria of a person that rests in their stomach but is actually essential for mammals to exist (no vitamin k2 without gut bacteria thus you would bleed to death from cuts for you can't blood clot and its also much harder to do other essential digestive functions, make certain proteins and enzymes, and even neurotransmitters without gut bacteria.) This is because your own cells that are used to make a fertilized egg or sperm are not the same DNA as other body cells and the same thing for the gut bacteria.

In fact all mammals have a placenta and an umbilical cord to deal with this and to identify that fetus as non parasite.

What about cells that lack DNA such as Red Blood Cells, are they parasites? They are automatic "drones" since they must be made in a little factory to serve a function and lack the DNA to make more of themselves. This is why as long as the red blood cells have the same type of proteins on the outside you can do blood transfusions to people with the same blood type since people with the same blood type have red blood cell drones that look the same to the immune system for they have the same structure on the outside of the blood cell and thus the immune system can't tell if you made that "drone" or if some other human made it.

-----

Whatever, I am moving on, but your logic is literally a fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
Aka a dog is soft and cuddly, a cat is soft and cuddly, They're both soft, cuddly pets. There's no difference between a cat and a dog."

Thus we can describe them with the term soft and cuddly and this is seen as a organizational factor and thus all soft and cuddly must be the same or related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

-----

Put another way.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqSX4xipsikFONBF60sykAbKyX3bJiP xTpMry5R_aB4tEQiTid4w

This quote is a Buddhist Kōan, it is one of many used to illustrate taking in a sensory effect is not the same as understanding the phenomenon. Knowling the candlelight is fire is not the same as knowing everything the candlelight was, is, and will be and by knowing something immediately you are closing your mind and not truely understanding something. Aka if your brain is like a cup is already filled to the brim with water, nothing can be added to it, and thus you are incapable of learning more till you see how much you do not understand and thus you must open your mind to new ideas, thoughts, concepts, and seeing beyond your senses.

-----

Maybe your thread is in jest, but I find your example just offensive.

[ATHATH]

The genetalia thing might be correct (I'm not a biologist), but I'm pretty sure that gut bacteria and red blood cells have a mutualistic relationship with the human body, not a parasitic one, so they wouldn't be removed.

[Aleolus]

Wow. I apologize, I wasn't meaning to trigger a hostile reaction, I just thought it was kind of a funny parallel. That being said, I'm fairly certain the persons genetailia would be unaffected, though I could see an argument be made for rendering a woman barren (killing all her eggs) or temporarily sterilizing a man (killing all the sperm in his testicles), though I think that would be a misjudgement on the part of the person claiming it, due to the fact that a man's sperm and a woman's eggs both have their genetics, marking them as a part of the persons body, while a developing fetus has its own, unique genetic makeup that is different from the mothers. I was unaware that part of the job of the placenta was to mark the fetus as something other than a parasite to the body, so it would be entirely plausible that it would also protect the child from healing magic that kills parasites. That would need to be decided by whoever it was being asked of at the time

[Jack_Simth]

Cast Dominate Person on yourself and your (perhaps too-trusting) friends, with the following ongoing command: "Act as you normally would as though you were not under the effect of a domination spell." Lasts days/level, gives you good sense-sharing intel, and most importantly gives you decent protection against anyone else trying to dominate you or the party, via the clause on conflicting orders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects) leading to opposed Charisma checks (obviously works better if a sorcerer's doing it). Note: Protection from Evil is minutes/level, and Mind Blank is 8th level.
Magic Circle Against Evil, however, is 3rd, lasts 10 minutes/level, and is pretty much absolute vs. anything Dominate Person would help you against. If you're worried about dispels, you generally want to layer things.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Magic Circle Against Evil, however, is 3rd, lasts 10 minutes/level, and is pretty much absolute vs. anything Dominate Person would help you against. If you're worried about dispels, you generally want to layer things.That still gets tricky for all-day coverage barring serious slot-expenditure, CL-pumping, or ocular persist shenanigans. The problem with mind controllers is often not knowing when they're going to strike.

[Pex]

On a similar note, Fabricate to make statues, Stone to Flesh to turn statues into corpses, then Animate dead for ethical-problem free necromancy!


That's . . . that's . . . brilliant!

[Jack_Simth]

That still gets tricky for all-day coverage barring serious slot-expenditure, CL-pumping, or ocular persist shenanigans. The problem with mind controllers is often not knowing when they're going to strike.
Most Dominators start their life out as Charmers, and avoid dumping Charisma because of it; the party Wizard may have limited success in using Dominate Person to keep the party out of enemy hands. Dominate lasts Days/level, this is true, and it gives you a Charisma check if you're giving orders to the meatshield or skillmonkey at the same time an enemy is doing so... but the NPC Dominator is liable to have a nontrivial edge on the opposed charisma check (unless the Dominating PC is a Sorcerer or some such, of course). So at 7th, you Dominate your fellows, and make sure to keep a Magic Circle prepared. When domination comes into play from NPC's, give conflicting orders. If you make the Cha check, great. If not, you cast Magic Circle on yourself and walk up to the controlled PC. The spell is liable to last far, far longer than the NPC.

At higher levels, of course, you layer on Mind Blank as well.

[Ramza00]

Wow. I apologize, I wasn't meaning to trigger a hostile reaction, I just thought it was kind of a funny parallel. That being said, I'm fairly certain the persons genetailia would be unaffected, though I could see an argument be made for rendering a woman barren (killing all her eggs) or temporarily sterilizing a man (killing all the sperm in his testicles), though I think that would be a misjudgement on the part of the person claiming it, due to the fact that a man's sperm and a woman's eggs both have their genetics, marking them as a part of the persons body, while a developing fetus has its own, unique genetic makeup that is different from the mothers. I was unaware that part of the job of the placenta was to mark the fetus as something other than a parasite to the body, so it would be entirely plausible that it would also protect the child from healing magic that kills parasites. That would need to be decided by whoever it was being asked of at the time

The immune system would very much kill the sperm a man produces without certain defenses that limit the immune system to attack the male genitalia, and similar logic to female to her own genitalia. These defenses are in only certain places of the body and only active during certain times at those body sites and when the cells leave those body sites. Remember that sperm are only half the genetics of the person and that is enough to trigger an immune response.

That said certain body parts such as specific parts of the eye, the placenta, and the male and female genitals have defenses to modify the immune system and are on a separate "grid" so to speak.

Also when a men fertilizes a woman they release a chemical to make it harder for the sperm to die on the several day trip to fertilize the egg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_privilege

Autoimmune privilege is why you can transplant a cornea, the lens that protects and focuses the eye like a camera lens to another person and not have to do autoimmune suppressing drugs. That said there are disorders that disrupt this autoimmune privilege as well as tissue damage that causes the immune system to be places the immune system was not meant to be. This causes things such as infertility but it also may be a start of other problems where the body thinks there are invaders even when there are not (inflammation and disorders where the body attack healthy tissue)

[Troacctid]

That still gets tricky for all-day coverage barring serious slot-expenditure, CL-pumping, or ocular persist shenanigans. The problem with mind controllers is often not knowing when they're going to strike.

Get yourself a lantern archon. There's your Magic Circle against Evil, all day every day.

[Doctor Despair]

On the subject of charms and dominations, the bardic feats Lyric Spell and Music of the Gods have a funny interaction to bypass an immunity to mind-affecting abilities for the purposes of arcane spells known -- perhaps unintended? Though Music can only be taken at level 21, and again only with some cheese to pump your perform ranks, so that's less useful. :p

The Ordained Champion PrC is really interesting! It's unfortunate that there is no effective way to use it on an advanced caster as long as craft contingent spell exists, all genesis acorn-of-travel shenanigans aside.

[Ramza00]

The Ordained Champion PrC is really interesting! It's unfortunate that there is no effective way to use it on an advanced caster as long as craft contingent spell exists, all genesis acorn-of-travel shenanigans aside.

Maybe I am forgetting my PRCs but isn't Ordained Champion the cleric tank prc that further makes fighter less options to shine since Ordained Champion gives you very easy access to full BAB, extra hit points, smite, etc? It does this by making swift action divine power as a 4th level spell allowing full BAB tank qualities whenever you need it without using persistent spell. Enough stuff to actually justify lost caster levels since it turns your character into a divine gish?

Such a build was things like

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 5/ Finished with whatever is your favorite fullcasting PRC or just finish with more church inquisitor

Netting you 5 Domains at level 5 and these domains can be subbed out for combat feats or devotion feats due to Ordained Champion 1.

Cleric is 2 Domains
Cloistered Cleric adds Knowledge
Church Inquisitor gives you the Inquisition Domain since you found some secret society in your church
Ordained Champion gives you the War Domain

And bonus points for it all flows together, you start out as a silent meek cleric who acts like a monk who wants to study ancient knowledge. You discover some conspiracy in the church, and then you become militant and start taking names to root out such corruption and evil, and an adventurer is born. Sure you are not a full caster, but a caster with only 2 levels behind but with lots of extra feats, combat tricks, and swift action divine power is better than most full BAB classes.

[Troacctid]

You actually have the War domain before Ordained Champion because you took it to meet the Weapon Focus prerequisite. (I mean, you don't have to have it as one of your original domains, but it would be a weird choice not to.)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Bestow curse allows any effect in line with its stated abilities in terms of power. Buffing your party isn't intrinsically more or less powerful than nerfing enemies, so you can throw curses on people which are actually helpful, like a 50% chance to get an extra round of actions each turn.

Create Water is a surprisingly effective ability to destroy buildings by flooding. Because it also creates a decent mass of water, it can be used as a half-decent weapon - at first level, it's not gonna deal damage unless you're 60 feet above your opponent (or at least 35 if you aim up). However, at 18th level, you can deal 7d6 damage over an area with a decent aim, and because you can shape the effect, you can exclude yourself and your allies, dropping a block of water which smashes into your enemies from the heavens. Not amazing, no, but nice for a cantrip, especially if your DM decides that Fell Drain works on it.


While RAW, there is nothing preventing you from 'cursing' allies with not-so-bad 'curses', giving someone a 50/50 shot of doubling actions is far more troublesome than 50/50 shot of losing actions. Not to mention using a Curse that isn't a curse at all is against any interpretation of RAI ever.

Create Water only creates water in a suitable container. Last time I checked, open air is not a suitable container.

I personally like using Thundercloud as a slightly lower level Glitterdust or Bone Fiddle. Specifically for locating enemies that like to flee or hide mid-battle. I grant you need to be able to see them first, but a floating cloud periodically striking them with a bolt of lightning is hard to hide.

[Deophaun]

There's the old staple of using darkness to illuminate a pitch-black room.

[Necrov]

Create Water only creates water in a suitable container. Last time I checked, open air is not a suitable container.



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm

I do not see anywhere that it states it -has- to be created in a suitable container.

[Coidzor]

Purify food and drink at the end of stone to fleshing someone and then transmuting that rock to mud in order to destroy them without allowing resurrection.

[Hamste]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm

I do not see anywhere that it states it -has- to be created in a suitable container.

Doesn't have to be a suitable container but it does need to be supported. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration

[Morcleon]

Doesn't have to be a suitable container but it does need to be supported. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration

The ground is capable of supporting it. :smalltongue:

[Necrov]

The ground is capable of supporting it. :smalltongue:

That's my interpretation of the RAW as well. Certainly, I think the intent of 'support' with regard to the conjuration rules was being aimed at not making random things float that should not be, or trying to make things support the weight of things they cannot. Though that's by the by. The ground is certainly more than capable of supporting the water.

[Jormengand]

-Snip-

You'd still be protected from most of the castle's collapse because you can't move and won't get buried under the rubble, although if you're a truenamer you can keep Reversed Inertia Surging for the same effect but you have to re-utter it each round.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm

I do not see anywhere that it states it -has- to be created in a suitable container.

Indeed, I see somewhere explicitly stating that it needn't:


possibly creating a downpour

Because this is specific, it overrides the general rule on needing support.

Anyway, other spell uses:

Arcane Mark can be used to spell out "I prepared explosive runes this morning." We recommend using a language which doesn't require six castings.

Because Arcane Eyes are physical, they can be used to block creatures. They're also apparently indestructible.

You may be able to stand on certain Hand spells, which relentlessly pursue (and bull rush) a creature (who can be an ally) at the same speed that they can move. If you want to get onto a cliff with your allies and the only spells you have are dimension door and interposing hand, interpose the hand between you and the party fighter while he's 10 feet away. Have him climb onto the hand along with the rogue and the cleric. Then Dimension Door onto the cliff (stay in medium range of the hand or it goes away). The hand has a bit of a Zeno moment trying to position itself halfway between you and the fighter who's clinging to the hand, but should eventually end up on the cliff.

To the uninitiated, a Dancing Lights spell looks like a summoning spell (and will-o-wisps are pretty dangerous) or can appear to be a type of attack; useful if you want to pretend to be attacking someone.

Mixing a poison into a potion of delay poison, then slipping that into someone's drink, could be an interesting way to make the poison look unrelated to the drinking of the drink. Even a cheap CL2 ranger potion would be pretty neat.

Dimensional lock stops called creatures from disappearing at the end of a calling spell.

Fireball used to be usable to rocket-jump, and if you're immune to fire you can try doing that with the aid of Explosive Spell. Firestorm is even better for this because you can shape it in a useful way.

If you want to long-distance travel with your slow-ass party, consider a floating disk. There's also nothing stopping you standing on one (GFD is supposed to be used that way, but there's no reason you can't stand on a regular FD.) Also, filling a floating disk with oil and setting it on fire before directing it to go dump it on a creature is a possible idea. Worst to the worst, you can use it to block people from getting into melee with you on a thin bridge (If they stand on the disk, get it to drop them off the edge)

By thinking with gates, you can create a perpetual motion machine (You have to create it so that gate A1 is under gate B2, and gate B1 is under gate A2).

Potions of damaging spells such as Shocking Grasp are fun for an assassin-type, given how few poisons are actually capable of killing anyone. Mirror image allows no save, so a potion of mirror image is nice to convince people they've gone insane. Potions of rage are perhaps also amusing. I think there's a way to get potions of high-level spells like Sequester, which doesn't allow a save either. A potion of PWK is probably overdoing it.

In a pinch, two spell turnings and a lot of harmless spells can, if you're lucky, substitute for a plane shift. If you're immune to fire, acid, electricity, poison, petrification, and mind-affecting abilities, then you can use prismatic wall in a pinch. If you're not, then you can still use prismatic wall+cone of cold+gust of wind+disintegrate+passwall+magic missile+daylight if you're super desperate.

Telekinesis can move a wooden board that you're standing on, potentially moving you, your party, and a lot of other stuff, so long as the board itself isn't too heavy. Find a material with a high ultimate tensile strength/density ratio. You can do something similar with Feather Fall if desperate (if you and your party need to go off a cliff at 2nd level, you can affect a single large board and then drop it off along with your party).

Lots of spells make obvious signals, such as fireballs which can be fired off several hundred feet in the air.

A hallway full of modify memory traps can serve as a magical cinema or instruction manual.



Time Hop can be used to open a door by removing the chain on the door, or to hide yourself in a pinch. If you set it up right, you can also create a fortress that you can teleport around by time hopping (if you have stone pillars which slide into your last location so that you return elsewhere and take no damage).

If your friend has come to the point in his life where he doesn't feel that he can handle life any more but can't bring himself to make the jump, and you don't feel quite right pushing him, have you tried Death Urge?

Sonic energy walls will take down masonry walls in minutes, and even a hewn stone wall is gone in about 10 minutes. Also, because the wall is so long (by the time you can cast it, you can destroy 100 feet of wall or 63 feet of circular tower).



As above, Reversed Inertia Surge - or Reversed Thwart the Traveller, but who takes that? - can be used to prevent falling, and also stop people teleporting away.

Speed of the Zephyr lets you travel from any wall to any ceiling, but that's probably just bad wording. The reversed version can immobilise someone if you have other speed reducers, because there's no minimum.

Because of the janky definition of attack, Temporal Twist may let someone get off an epic spell as someone else's swift action.

Mystic Rampart may drop a tower on someone, but this is DEFINITELY because of bad wording.

Rebuild Item can be used to replenish item charges, because it restores the item to its normal, undamaged state.

Transmute Weapon may let you turn enemy weapons into ice.

[Great Velocity]

It says in the description that it can be used to create a downpour, however, and specific trumps general.

[ATHATH]

Rockburst can blow up a rocky planet.

Illusionary Script can be used as a way to plant Suggestions in a lot of people over an extended period of time.

The Lantern Archon created by Create Lantern Archon can probably be used as a soul component in spells (an outsider's body is its soul).

Dragonmark Demesne can be used to create a fortress mid-battle. It prevents any creatures that you don't want to enter it from entering it (possibly even blocking teleportation) and gives you total concealment against those outside of the sphere created by the spell (you can still see out, though). It lasts for 2 hours/level too, which means that you can literally just sit down in the middle of a battlefield and refresh your spells (put up a Protection from Arrows or something to keep arrows and such off of you), and nothing short of a Disintegrate, Antimagic Field, or hurricane force winds can touch you (I guess a Spellcaster could try to blast you with spells, but that's what Greater Dispel Magic Spellturrets are for).

[Jormengand]

The Lantern Archon created by Create Lantern Archon can probably be used as a soul component in spells (an outsider's body is its soul).

Which is also a handy way to get rid of an outsider in general.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can create an abjuration bomb by filling an empty book with castings of explosive runes, having your familiar or a party member toss the book at something you really want to kill, right now, and then casting a low CL area dispel magic at it. Every rune you fail to dispel will explode, all at once, likely obliterating everything close enough to read the runes (so just make the runes as large as you can to affect the largest area -- which you then remain well out of).

This is something you can do in your off days, where your spell slots would otherwise go to waste. Add on metamagic such as Explosive Spell for even more fun.

[Gildedragon]

You'd still be protected from most of the castle's collapse because you can't move and won't get buried under the rubble, although if you're a truenamer you can keep Reversed Inertia Surging for the same effect but you have to re-utter it each round.



Indeed, I see somewhere explicitly stating that it needn't:



Because this is specific, it overrides the general rule on needing support.

Anyway, other spell uses:

Arcane Mark can be used to spell out "I prepared explosive runes this morning." We recommend using a language which doesn't require six castings.

Because Arcane Eyes are physical, they can be used to block creatures. They're also apparently indestructible.

You may be able to stand on certain Hand spells, which relentlessly pursue (and bull rush) a creature (who can be an ally) at the same speed that they can move. If you want to get onto a cliff with your allies and the only spells you have are dimension door and interposing hand, interpose the hand between you and the party fighter while he's 10 feet away. Have him climb onto the hand along with the rogue and the cleric. Then Dimension Door onto the cliff (stay in medium range of the hand or it goes away). The hand has a bit of a Zeno moment trying to position itself halfway between you and the fighter who's clinging to the hand, but should eventually end up on the cliff.

To the uninitiated, a Dancing Lights spell looks like a summoning spell (and will-o-wisps are pretty dangerous) or can appear to be a type of attack; useful if you want to pretend to be attacking someone.

Mixing a poison into a potion of delay poison, then slipping that into someone's drink, could be an interesting way to make the poison look unrelated to the drinking of the drink. Even a cheap CL2 ranger potion would be pretty neat.

Dimensional lock stops called creatures from disappearing at the end of a calling spell.

Fireball used to be usable to rocket-jump, and if you're immune to fire you can try doing that with the aid of Explosive Spell. Firestorm is even better for this because you can shape it in a useful way.

If you want to long-distance travel with your slow-ass party, consider a floating disk. There's also nothing stopping you standing on one (GFD is supposed to be used that way, but there's no reason you can't stand on a regular FD.) Also, filling a floating disk with oil and setting it on fire before directing it to go dump it on a creature is a possible idea. Worst to the worst, you can use it to block people from getting into melee with you on a thin bridge (If they stand on the disk, get it to drop them off the edge)

By thinking with gates, you can create a perpetual motion machine (You have to create it so that gate A1 is under gate B2, and gate B1 is under gate A2).

Potions of damaging spells such as Shocking Grasp are fun for an assassin-type, given how few poisons are actually capable of killing anyone. Mirror image allows no save, so a potion of mirror image is nice to convince people they've gone insane. Potions of rage are perhaps also amusing. I think there's a way to get potions of high-level spells like Sequester, which doesn't allow a save either. A potion of PWK is probably overdoing it.

In a pinch, two spell turnings and a lot of harmless spells can, if you're lucky, substitute for a plane shift. If you're immune to fire, acid, electricity, poison, petrification, and mind-affecting abilities, then you can use prismatic wall in a pinch. If you're not, then you can still use prismatic wall+cone of cold+gust of wind+disintegrate+passwall+magic missile+daylight if you're super desperate.

Telekinesis can move a wooden board that you're standing on, potentially moving you, your party, and a lot of other stuff, so long as the board itself isn't too heavy. Find a material with a high ultimate tensile strength/density ratio. You can do something similar with Feather Fall if desperate (if you and your party need to go off a cliff at 2nd level, you can affect a single large board and then drop it off along with your party).

Lots of spells make obvious signals, such as fireballs which can be fired off several hundred feet in the air.

A hallway full of modify memory traps can serve as a magical cinema or instruction manual.



Time Hop can be used to open a door by removing the chain on the door, or to hide yourself in a pinch. If you set it up right, you can also create a fortress that you can teleport around by time hopping (if you have stone pillars which slide into your last location so that you return elsewhere and take no damage).

If your friend has come to the point in his life where he doesn't feel that he can handle life any more but can't bring himself to make the jump, and you don't feel quite right pushing him, have you tried Death Urge?

Sonic energy walls will take down masonry walls in minutes, and even a hewn stone wall is gone in about 10 minutes. Also, because the wall is so long (by the time you can cast it, you can destroy 100 feet of wall or 63 feet of circular tower).



As above, Reversed Inertia Surge - or Reversed Thwart the Traveller, but who takes that? - can be used to prevent falling, and also stop people teleporting away.

Speed of the Zephyr lets you travel from any wall to any ceiling, but that's probably just bad wording. The reversed version can immobilise someone if you have other speed reducers, because there's no minimum.

Because of the janky definition of attack, Temporal Twist may let someone get off an epic spell as someone else's swift action.

Mystic Rampart may drop a tower on someone, but this is DEFINITELY because of bad wording.

Rebuild Item can be used to replenish item charges, because it restores the item to its normal, undamaged state.

Transmute Weapon may let you turn enemy weapons into ice.

Where is rebuild item from?

[Deophaun]

Rockburst can blow up a rocky planet.
That reminds me: what's the spell that can destroy the world's oceans by using them as a material component?

[ATHATH]

Where is rebuild item from?
I think it's an Utterance, so it's from Tome of Magic.

[Zancloufer]

By thinking with gates, you can create a perpetual motion machine (You have to create it so that gate A1 is under gate B2, and gate B1 is under gate A2).

. . .

A hallway full of modify memory traps can serve as a magical cinema or instruction manual.



Time Hop can be used to open a door by removing the chain on the door, or to hide yourself in a pinch. If you set it up right, you can also create a fortress that you can teleport around by time hopping (if you have stone pillars which slide into your last location so that you return elsewhere and take no damage).



Can you make two gates on the same plane? It says "Between your plane and a plane you specify". There is nothing saying you can't make a gate to two places on the same plane as some sort of short duration teleport circle. Or do the Portal trick with two Gates, one on a wall and another perpendicular to it on the floor. Anything that falls into the one gate is then trapped in a constant loop of falling and turning. No save, No SR.

. . .

Modify Memory as some sort of sleep learning aid is something while incredibly smart seems more of a RP or world building thing than an actual mechanical benefit. Unless you can actually grant skill points or something with it.

. . .

Time Hop: Why not just cast it on the door it's self? I remember the first time someone played a Psion in my group and encounter a super heavily barricaded gate. Just poof it out of the way and for ML/Rounds you can send an army through the giant gaping hole in the enemy's castle. Not like a mundane gate has a will save or can make WIS checks.


Also what about Major Creation + (Fabricate) Permanency? With the density of Gold or Platinum you can literally become a factory for counterfeiting coins. I mean anyone with Detect Magic active might get suspicious but if you play it smart you can buy a lot of things off more mundane merchants. Also unlike flooding the market with 20 tons of Salt or Iron Daggers it's a bit harder to saturate the market with actual valuable metals. I mean really it would be pretty hard to unload 20K GP worth of salt or daggers onto most towns.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Also unlike flooding the market with 20 tons of Salt or Iron Daggers it's a bit harder to saturate the market with actual valuable metals.I beg to differ. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Price_Revolution)

[Inevitability]

Where is rebuild item from?

If Jormengard refers to something obscure, it's probably related to Truenaming.

[Venger]

On a related note to Mount, there's it's upgrade, Regal Procession. Intended to give the whole party mounts for one spell. Instead, I've found it's basically Wall of Horses.
I always refer to multiple castings of mount or regal procession used to blockade as a horse field.

Rockburst can blow up a rocky planet.

Illusionary Script can be used as a way to plant Suggestions in a lot of people over an extended period of time.

The Lantern Archon created by Create Lantern Archon can probably be used as a soul component in spells (an outsider's body is its soul).

Dragonmark Demesne can be used to create a fortress mid-battle. It prevents any creatures that you don't want to enter it from entering it (possibly even blocking teleportation) and gives you total concealment against those outside of the sphere created by the spell (you can still see out, though). It lasts for 2 hours/level too, which means that you can literally just sit down in the middle of a battlefield and refresh your spells (put up a Protection from Arrows or something to keep arrows and such off of you), and nothing short of a Disintegrate, Antimagic Field, or hurricane force winds can touch you (I guess a Spellcaster could try to blast you with spells, but that's what Greater Dispel Magic Spellturrets are for).

rockburst can destroy the entire plane of earth. think of all the xp you'd reap.

clothier's closet in tandem with a ghallanda dragonmark can let you sell 100gp worth of clothes to unsuspecting rubes and have them disappear later like a depression era flimflam man at absolutely no cost. the clothes do not radiate magic, so unlike doing the trick with "mount" there's actually no counter to it at all. a very meager moneymaking trick compared to normal stuff like wall of iron/salt/etc, and it's even got its own adventure/plot hook built in when all the people you've pissed off inevitably track you down.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can you make two gates on the same plane? It says "Between your plane and a plane you specify". There is nothing saying you can't make a gate to two places on the same plane as some sort of short duration teleport circle.I'm afraid that's untrue.

"A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel."


Or do the Portal trick with two Gates, one on a wall and another perpendicular to it on the floor. Anything that falls into the one gate is then trapped in a constant loop of falling and turning. No save, No SR.Even if you could do this, gravity would continually increase the speed at which the object travels as it hits a parabola, so unless you've got a 10' x 10' room with a portal on one wall and another on the floor (so that once the object's speed increases to the point where it rebounds off the wall and falls through a portal gate), eventually the object will fly out fast enough that it lands on the floor some ways away.

You could probably do this with a liquid and a water wheel generator, though, so long as you've got two sets of gates on different planes linking to each other.

[RedMage125]

Biologically, a fetus gives nothing back, regardless of if the mother wants it or not. And again, biologically, once born it is no longer doing so (unless you want to count breastfeeding, in which case it might apply if the child is feeding when the spell is cast)
The angry response to this aside, there's another problem with this statement.

It's been shown that pregnant women who suffer heart attacks and other injuries, that fetuses will give some of their own stem cells to the mother to help the mother repair and recover.

So the statement "a fetus gives nothing back" is provably false.
Here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633676/) is an article from US National Library of Medicine's website.


On a similar note, Fabricate to make statues, Stone to Flesh to turn statues into corpses, then Animate dead for ethical-problem free necromancy!

Or Flesh to Stone, (Things that modify rock), then Stone to Flesh can have result varying from horrifying, to hilarious, to flavorful (once had a character in a 3.p game who used Gloves of Shaping+this to do incision-free plastic surgery).

Stone to Flesh on a statue does not create a skeletal system, so skeletons cannot be created. And the SRD states that to make a zombie the corpse "must be that of a creature with true anatomy", which I would say excludes a humanoid-shaped lump of flesh created from casting StF on a statue.

[Jormengand]

Time Hop: Why not just cast it on the door it's self? I remember the first time someone played a Psion in my group and encounter a super heavily barricaded gate. Just poof it out of the way and for ML/Rounds you can send an army through the giant gaping hole in the enemy's castle. Not like a mundane gate has a will save or can make WIS checks.

The door can sometimes be too heavy to do that; also hopping the chain allows you to open the door for someone who wants to arrive after the power's duration.

As for gates, you will need to put A1 and B2 on one plane and A2 and B1 on another, but that doesn't really matter.


If Jormengarnd refers to something obscure, it's probably related to Truenaming.

For reference, the post was spells, then powers, then utterances. I'm not familiar enough with invocations, chakras or maneuvers to offer guidance on ways of using them, although I do recall that a lot of the throw-type maneuvers are useful on your allies when they're not supposed to be, and one of the maneuvers possibly allows you to return a creature next to you if they ready an action to catch your weapon, which then returns to your hand.


You could probably do this with a liquid and a water wheel generator, though, so long as you've got two sets of gates on different planes linking to each other.

I'm afraid that inanimate objects cannot pass through gates, nor apparently can they be plane shifted. There isn't even a stipulation that anyone takes any items with them when they pass through.

[Necroticplague]

T
Stone to Flesh on a statue does not create a skeletal system, so skeletons cannot be created. And the SRD states that to make a zombie the corpse "must be that of a creature with true anatomy", which I would say excludes a humanoid-shaped lump of flesh created from casting StF on a statue.

Don't corpses have bones? The spell says it makes corpses. Assuming the animal the target statue represents has bones, I don't see why the spell wouldn't produce a corpse with bones.

Even that aside, that still leaves other possibilities for undead open. Corpse creatures don't need a skeleton.

[Deophaun]

Assuming the animal the target statue represents has bones...
Assuming stone to flesh cares what form the statue is.

[Necroticplague]

Assuming stone to flesh cares what form the statue is.

Well, it says that statues become corpses. If the spell doesn't care about what the statue is of, then what is the corpse of? A statue of a horse becomes the corpse of a......?

[TheFamilarRaven]

Well, it says that statues become corpses. If the spell doesn't care about what the statue is of, then what is the corpse of? A statue of a horse becomes the corpse of a......?

...donkey? :smallbiggrin:

Throwing in my 2 CP. Since the spell Fabricate requires a craft skill to make objects of fine detail, I would argue that it can in point of fact make statue with inner skeletal structure. Of course I'd also rule that you'd need sufficient knowledge of the intended statue's anatomy (K. Nature, probably, although K. Local for Humanoids), but that's neither here nor there.

My beef is the claim that it removes the ethical dilemma, since you still are, by all accounts, creating a creature that if not for your control, would seek out and destroy life. I guess it removes the moral conundrum of killing something in the first place...

[Deophaun]

Well, it says that statues become corpses. If the spell doesn't care about what the statue is of, then what is the corpse of? A statue of a horse becomes the corpse of a......?
It becomes a corpse. Not a corpse of something. A corpse. Period. The statue of a horse becomes a corpse, not a corpse of a horse.


My beef is the claim that it removes the ethical dilemma, since you still are, by all accounts, creating a creature that if not for your control, would seek out and destroy life. I guess it removes the moral conundrum of killing something in the first place...
Neither zombies nor skeletons will seek out and destroy life unless they are ordered to. Their default mode is "do nothing." It's animated objects, strangely, that have the natural bloodlust.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To the perpetual motion gate confusion:

Gate A1, A2 leads to an open space in the elemental plane of earth. A1 is on the material, layed horizontally with its opening face up. A2 is oriented horizontally with its opening face down.


Gate B1, B2 leads back to a point on the material directly above A1. B1 is on the EPoE, layed horizontally with its opening face up, directly beneath A2. B2 is directly above A1 also horizontal with its opening face down.

You fall through A1, come out of A2, fall into B1, come out of B2 above A1 and the cycle repeats indefinitely. You should end up somewhere just above terminal velocity, perpetually, until one of the gates closes.

[Deophaun]

You fall through A1, come out of A2, fall into B1, come out of B2 above A1 and the cycle repeats indefinitely. You should end up somewhere just above terminal velocity, perpetually, until one of the gates closes.

As a bonus, you are also a small gravity tractor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_tractor) for the planet the gate is on.

[Coidzor]

So make sure to balance if killing catgirls.

How do you use it to generate power if limited to naked creatures? Have a nice sturdy wheel and an animated object with sufficient hardness not to be damaged by repeated collisions?

[Jack_Simth]

So make sure to balance if killing catgirls.

How do you use it to generate power if limited to naked creatures? Have a nice sturdy wheel and an animated object with sufficient hardness not to be damaged by repeated collisions?
That'd be one way to do it, yes. You could also use death row inmates (short term only) or creatures with regeneration that won't die from the repeated collisions.

Animated objects are probably the least icky option. Better for maintenance too, what without all that pesky blood, although your initial costs are higher that way.

[SwordChucks]

I remember hearing about using a set of ring gates for perpetual motion:

You set the gates one above the other, facing each other. Then you insert a steel pole halfway through one ring and weld the ends together. As it's one object and it never completly passes through the rings it should fall forever. Add some protusions to spin a wheel and you're good to go.

Until you catch a book to the head of course.

[Venger]

I remember hearing about using a set of ring gates for perpetual motion:

You set the gates one above the other, facing each other. Then you insert a steel pole halfway through one ring and weld the ends together. As it's one object and it never completly passes through the rings it should fall forever. Add some protusions to spin a wheel and you're good to go.

Until you catch a book to the head of course.

Now that's thinking with portals.

[Jowgen]

Tenser's floating disk has already been mentioned for accelerated party movement, but it also has a bunch of other applications, especially if you have sufficient/unlimited castings of it available.

You can use it to stay off the ground by standing and jumping from it while it's directed to maintain a 0 ft distance, thus avoiding pressure traps and most difficult terrain. Stack them on top of each other in this, and you can happily traverse the land (or sufficiently shallow rivers) while staying several feet up in the air.

You can take cover under it to block things like Trebuchet stones aimed at you, as its made of force and weight is a static factor in D&D

You can arguably use it to anchor yourself against things like hurricanes that try to move you by command it to not move and hold on. In a similar vein, you can readied-action use it to block charging creatures or moving dungeon features (e.g. rolling ball of death). Or hey, surround yourself with stacks of them ahead of time and things that can't squeeze through a 3 ft space can reach you in melee.

Lastly, you can arguably use it for low-level flight by combinding it with mage hand and a sheet of light material.

For further details, I did write a handbook on this, which can be found in my sig.

[ben-zayb]

rockburst can destroy the entire plane of earth. think of all the xp you'd reap.Why destroy if you can use Animate Objects on it starting CL32? You can also use ML7 Metamorphosis to turn into a moon, maybe even one that's bigger than the sun.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why destroy if you can use Animate Objects on it starting CL32? You can also use ML7 Metamorphosis to turn into a moon, maybe even one that's bigger than the sun.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/69/3a/81/693a8141af2b5d88ca24d249b0048876.jpg

....... What?

[ayvango]

Under your logic you would destroy the genitals of any male or female creature if you cast heal, or you destroy the gut bacteria of a person that rests in their stomach but is actually essential for mammals to exist (no vitamin k2 without gut bacteria thus you would bleed to death from cuts for you can't blood clot and its also much harder to do other essential digestive functions, make certain proteins and enzymes, and even neurotransmitters without gut bacteria.) This is because your own cells that are used to make a fertilized egg or sperm are not the same DNA as other body cells and the same thing for the gut bacteria.

Why do you bring real-world physics into the d&d game? If you decided to go to that level of detail, tell how could half-elves be possible? And what about half-gnomes, half-dragons, even centaurs?

When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck.

Pregnancy manifests as a disease, it impedes mobility, intoxicate hosts. It does not matter if host willingly get sick. The same matter is with alcohol and other narcotics. Victim willingly continues to take drugs until the that poison kills it.

I saw somewhere rules for pregnancy disease. Various penalties and DC checks depending on gestational age. But I could not find it now.

[Jormengand]

Another thing you can do with gates:

- Get the biggest Fullblade you can animate; probably gargantuan. Colossal Mauls are also gargantuan; I'm not sure which weighs more because I can't remember how heavy fullblades are.
- Gate A1 is on the ground in front of you, gate A2 is on the EPoF (The EPoE seems like an odd choice, actually, and I figure that warming it up a bit might be neat) with its opening down. Wizard/truenamer goes through the gate onto the EPoF with energy negation or resist energy up, and gates from there underneath A2 so that A2 leads straight into the mouth of B1, and B2 opens downwards, hundreds of feet in the air above something you want to kill. Essentially, this is equivalent to opening a gate from one point on the material (in front of you) to another (hundreds of feet in the air above something you want to kill) except that you can't do that, so you have to do it in this roundabout way.
- Truenamer readies an action to drop the fullblade into the hole the moment he finishes uttering, and the wizard readies an action to animate it (so it's a creature and can pass through the gate) the moment it's dropped.
- Truenamer uses Transmute Weapon to turn the fullblade into something nasty (the obvious ones are tungsten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment), something radioactive, and something highly explosive like francium.
- Action to drop the weapon enters the stack.
- Action to animate the weapon enters the stack.
- Action to animate the weapon leaves the stack and weapon is animated.
- Action to drop the weapon leaves the stack and you blow up whatever you were aiming at, plus an inordinate number of catgirls.

[Zorku]

**bangs head against the wall**, I apologize before I start but I am going to be very rude depending on the reason you made this thread.

-Rant about words-

I'll match your pedantry and raise you one.

He didn't say anything about creatures having to share your DNA (yet.) It's just any organism that takes without giving something back. You could clone yourself and then break the clone's liver and wire up your vasculature system and they would be a parasite to you. That gut bacteria you seem to think he'd annihilate with a heal spell... GIVES YOU VITAMIN K. Just like YOU said. It's not any foreign or different organism but specifically parasites.
Sperm and eggs? Not organisms. They're cells your own body makes and if you think that cells moving around freely somehow makes them different organisms you don't know the first thing about animal cells, and I'm talking about way more than just your red and white blood cells there.

So in terms of metabolism, which is the way you'd normally measure how much something is taking vs what it gives, a fetus is pretty severely in the red. Not only do those things leech nutrients out of your blood, they pump their cocktail of hormones back in it to stop your organs from having control over things like your own blood sugar. Go ahead, look up gestational diabetes. In the land of thinking that human(oid)s are the pinnacle of evolution you miss a whole lot of awful reality where the genes from a father are aiming for a scorched earth policy with the womb their kid comes out of if it means that particular child will be heartier and that whole routine bleeding for a week at a time thing is a clumsy stop gap to try and protect those organs from quite such a harsh and unremorseful gestation.

Now, the proper argument that you're looking for here is something to the tune of "a fetus may be a big drain if you're only looking at the metabolism, but in terms of keeping any of your genes in the genepool for very long they're the only option you've got, so their contribution is almost infinitely larger than some piddly symbiotic creature that just helps to keep you alive for a few dozens of years."

Personally I'm a lot more amazed by this notion of giving parasites the boot though. This should turn the heal spell into a secondary cure disease spell for TONS of of the causes of old age, both fixing up physical problems like broken bones as well as more complicated matters like gastric ulcers or even just kicking most of the bacteria out of your mouth that make you more prone to tooth decay. Even the relatively lazy bacteria that don't do you any particular harm are the black in terms of parasitism because having a variety of them lets you occasionally get at molecules you can put to use that they had to digest for a step, and they help regulate your internal environment so that it's not a goldmine for the first e.coli that gets into the wrong portion of your gut to start causing problems. But even throwing all of that out of the equation you really have no idea how many weird little worms and amoebas are floating around inside of you without those kinds of small but necessary contributions, causing a very measurable drain on your body's very function. And I'm talking about you, right now, modern day. The parasites you have right now don't even compare to a few centuries ago when every miner got ground itch because we weren't concerned about making them poop away from areas that people walk through.

As for how words are used: in modern biology we go to kind of a lot of trouble to actually make really specific definitions that actually catalog every little condition that seems to apply. We get tripped up a bit trying to define some of the more basic distinctions when nature didn't really care about drawing discrete lines between those categories, but we've got things like parasite locked down.

That's not to say that the very basic definition people find in a high school text book, or worse, in a dictionary, is anything like the one that serious scientific researches are using. You could pretty much choose to focus on studies for any science word in a dictionary for six years and still not be quite sure you grasped all of the intricate details of what it means, but there's a community of people that have made their career about that thing that have a rock solid grasp of the concept, and if you know enough of their jargon they can give you the real world definition on demand.



Remember that sperm are only half the genetics of the person and that is enough to trigger an immune response.
Well no, your cells have these little proteins that stick out through the membrane. The white B blood cells each have a unique-ish one that's part of a complicated structure, same story with your white T blood cells, and your sperms have a variety of membrane proteins. A B cell has to be able to grab something with their special protein and a T cell has to be able to grab it at another point, and then that sort of gives the green light for your immune response. There's no scanning of DNA during any of that.
So, the B cell protein is fairly random, kind of a "scramble the DNA and see what comes out" approach for each cell, so a lot of those cells are made and would attack your own body except that there's a safety check- they hang out in organs like your bone marrow for awhile. Places where you shouldn't have anything foreign and dangerous. If they bind to anything there instead of a green light they go to jail without passing go and collecting 200 shmeckles. Death row too.

Thing is there aren't usually any sperm in your bone marrow (especially before puberty when you make your first sperms,) and your sperm have just a couple of genes that make them work pretty well but kind of muck up any other cell in your body. So it's these surface genes that your immune system pays attention to, but you usually don't nuke your haploid cells thanks to the sperm being confined to a pretty specific area that doesn't get a lot of white blood cell traffic, (which you do mention in text I didn't quote,) but also a bunch of other little factors that stave off infertility. For women there are a few suppressor materials that help prevent them from developing immunity to sperm, though that's a fairly delicate balance because their immune system is generally the first thing that stops us from making weird hybrid babies with all kinds of other species... when that sort of pairing happens in the first place...



I'm afraid that inanimate objects cannot pass through gates, nor apparently can they be plane shifted. There isn't even a stipulation that anyone takes any items with them when they pass through.
Ok, forget water wheel machines. Let's make a chicken wheel machine.


It becomes a corpse. Not a corpse of something. A corpse. Period. The statue of a horse becomes a corpse, not a corpse of a horse.

Can I get a little more explanation on what it means for something to be a nonspecific corpse like that? How is this a concept anyone would come up with for reasons other than denying the possibility of zombie fabrication?

[Deophaun]

Can I get a little more explanation on what it means for something to be a nonspecific corpse like that? How is this a concept anyone would come up with for reasons other than denying the possibility of zombie fabrication?
It's perfectly fine for zombie fabrication. It's just that since the qualities of the corpses are undefined, the stats of said zombies are left to DM adjudication (shocking concept, I understand). And if you think about it, this is how it should be. Otherwise if the spell created a corpse of what the statue represented, that way would lie madness. As in "Here is a statue of Cthulhu, let's hit it with stone to flesh and create Corpse Creature Cthulhu" madness.

However, since the spell creates flesh, not flesh and bone, there is no reason by RAW for these corpses to possess bony skeletons, regardless of their forms.

[Zorku]

It's perfectly fine for zombie fabrication. It's just that since the qualities of the corpses are undefined, the stats of said zombies are left to DM adjudication (shocking concept, I understand). And if you think about it, this is how it should be. Otherwise if the spell created a corpse of what the statue represented, that way would lie madness. As in "Here is a statue of Cthulhu, let's hit it with stone to flesh and create Corpse Creature Cthulhu" madness.

However, since the spell creates flesh, not flesh and bone, there is no reason by RAW for these corpses to possess bony skeletons, regardless of their forms.
The Cthulhu corpse doesn't actually bother me. The statue wouldn't so much give any damns about having a name, so you've got kind of a brute illithid sort of creature that makes a good (dead) body double for cthulhu, but doesn't necessarily have any of the wit, cunning, madness, ia ftahgns, or general cosmic power. Sort of like how you could have a person that looks like a wrestler but doesn't have any idea how to perform an effective drop kick or actually pin down an opponent.

You might instead rule that these zombies never had any language so commanding them to act in the first place is a bit of an ordeal, and when you do that they've got whatever strength their body should have but even less finesse than typical zombies.


This bones aren't flesh assumption has been rubbing me the wrong way though. Going by the most common dictionary entries you're in the right but with petrification if you're broken, then the pieces are put back together or held in place during a stone to flesh spell, you come out fine. You don't come out of that with intact flesh but broken bones. Contextually it seems like DnD uses a definition more like "the body, especially as distinguished from the spirit or soul."
Admittedly this is a fairly rare definition compared to any of the 'bits you could easily eat' definitions, but where we're contrasting living things with stone I'm not really sure what other word you'd even use for living material that carried the connotation of a functional body with it.

[Deophaun]

The Cthulhu corpse doesn't actually bother me. The statue wouldn't so much give any damns about having a name, so you've got kind of a brute illithid sort of creature that makes a good (dead) body double for cthulhu, but doesn't necessarily have any of the wit, cunning, madness, ia ftahgns, or general cosmic power.
That's the thing, though. Cthulhu is not just a name. It's also what it is. Cthulhu is a species of one. What you get might not have the memories of the Cthulhu, but it should definitely have some of the powers if we're saying it's a corpse of a Cthulhu creature, instead of it being a corpse that happens to look like Cthulhu. But, what you are doing is exactly what I said should be done: DM arbitration.

This bones aren't flesh assumption has been rubbing me the wrong way though. Going by the most common dictionary entries you're in the right but with petrification if you're broken, then the pieces are put back together or held in place during a stone to flesh spell, you come out fine. You don't come out of that with intact flesh but broken bones. Contextually it seems like DnD uses a definition more like "the body, especially as distinguished from the spirit or soul."
Well, there aren't really such things as broken bones in D&D. You either have hit point damage or you do not. Or Constitution damage, which is the closest thing. But even there, D&D doesn't simulate it well. The Stone Dragon Maneuver bonesplitting strike reduces bones to dust yet is easily healed by a single night's rest with some Heal skill TLC. That would be one miraculous doctor to pull it off. But, this is another topic entirely.

As I am saying, it's DM arbitration. If the DM wants to arbitrate that you get skeletons, it's no big deal. Doesn't make the combo broken by any means. The problem is a player assuming that the spell works that way and taking it a step further as carte blanche to create specific monster corpses.

[ATHATH]

The Water Walk and Air Walk special abilities of the Phantom Steed created by the Phantom Steed spell aren't restricted to being cast on only the Phantom Steed, and the Phantom Steed can cast them as a free action.

I'm now imagining a city where Phantom Steeds stand on poles, allowing the population of the city to walk through the air.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Water Walk and Air Walk special abilities of the Phantom Steed created by the Phantom Steed spell aren't restricted to being cast on only the Phantom Steed, and the Phantom Steed can cast them as a free action.

I'm now imagining a city where Phantom Steeds stand on poles, allowing the population of the city to walk through the air.Likewise, the nightmare's ability to cast a 9th level spell (astral projection) probably wasn't considered when lesser planar binding gave unrestricted access to it. All it takes is enough buffs and debuffs to overwhelm it on a Charisma check (which is not hard to do), and you've got an at-will get-out-of-death-free card far earlier than the game assumes. Etherealness is pretty great, too.

The same goes for genies and wishes, as well, though those require regular planar binding. Still, easy access to multiple cheap 9th level spells so early in the game is pretty fantastic, especially since they have few to no costs, if you play your cards right (or in this case, dice).

And then we have the Greenbound Summoning feat. You can get higher level spells by summoning critters using low level slots. Definitely not well thought out, there.

[The Grue]

Also, see acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a). Pretty much any thread on the internet will tell you exactly why I mention it.

Would you mind summarizing, so that I don't have to spend a weekend trawling through Google search results of forum threads where people say "We all know the abuses of acorn of far travel so I won't repeat them here"?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Water Walk and Air Walk special abilities of the Phantom Steed created by the Phantom Steed spell aren't restricted to being cast on only the Phantom Steed, and the Phantom Steed can cast them as a free action.

I'm now imagining a city where Phantom Steeds stand on poles, allowing the population of the city to walk through the air.

Not much point trying to use the airwalk without the steed though. Only 1 round at a time.

[Necroticplague]

Would you mind summarizing, so that I don't have to spend a weekend trawling through Google search results of forum threads where people say "We all know the abuses of acorn of far travel so I won't repeat them here"?

The key abusable part of the acorn is where you're standing under the canopy of the tree you took it from. It was intended to be used with the other spells in that article that require you to be in a forested area. What it more frequently gets used for is manipulating what exactly is the benefit of being under it's canopy. Examples include using trees on Hallowed ground that gives buffs, having the tree be on a plane with beneficial effects (i.e, take it from a tree on the Shadow to enhance your Shadow spells, take it from the Astral to freely quicken all your spells, take it from a plane that's timeless with respect to magic to make all your buffs last forever, take it from the Positive Material Plane for fast healing and temp HP), or manipulate whether you're in your Sanctum or not (for Sanctum Spell). Hathran for a tree in Rashemi to spontaneously cast any arcane spell they know (keep in mind that for a wizard, their entire book is their known spells), or that's simply on their class list for divine casting. Geomancer for +3 CL to everything. Being able to use monster forms that get large bonuses to skills on specific terrain at all times (or Ranger abilities with similar requirements).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Would you mind summarizing, so that I don't have to spend a weekend trawling through Google search results of forum threads where people say "We all know the abuses of acorn of far travel so I won't repeat them here"?You're considered to be standing on the ground beneath the oak tree the acorn came from, and there are no limits placed on this statement. Therefore, you can carry an acorn and receive all the logical benefits of standing in that place. For instance, you can use stone dragon maneuvers or feats like Earth Spell and Earth Power while carrying an acorn, so long as the tree is planted on a solid platform of earth. You also receive any other benefits that are granted to someone in such a position, such as planar traits (like gravity, magic, and time), or more temporary benefits like those tied to a hallow effect.

Now go out, create yourself an enhanced magic (all spells, with lots of free metamagic), fast time demiplane, with earthen ground for a floor, and plenty of fresh water around. Plant an oak sapling and cast plant growth there. Now cast a hallow tied to whatever permanent effects you want on yourself at all times. Cast acorn of far travel on an acorn from the tree and carry it around with you. Now you receive all of those benefits no matter where you are.

[edit] Ranger'd, though it's a hallow effect, not a consecrate.

[Nettlekid]

Going back to something similar to the OP's remarks on Heal, if a villain is motivated by megalomania or is a psychopath/sociopath (by a horribly unscientific definition, but a common one nonetheless) these are defined as psychological diseases and as such a Remove Disease spell should be effective on them.


I've used Temporal Reiteration's augment to extend the duration of debuffs on my enemies. Especially if you combine with some "compensates nastiness of condition with short length of it". Like pretty much anything that dazes, stuns, or staggers.

This is really smart. I can't believe I never thought of this.

This is more of a Rules Dysfunction than an unintentional spell use, but the Wolf part of Aspect of the Werebeast states that if you have a bite you can attempt to trip as a free action. It doesn't say you need to be using the bite, or that you need to hit with it (despite that being the obvious intention, like an actual Wolf's trip attack.) You can basically bare your fangs and whip out with your hands a thousand times in a second, by the RAW wording of the spell.

I've often wondered, if you made one of a pair of Ring Gates larger or smaller than the other (hold it while using Enlarge/Reduce person, or use Dispel Magic to make it nonmagical for a brief duration and then cast Shrink Item) what would happen to that connection? If something enters the small end it's easy to say the thing just exits a small area of the large end, but what if something enters near the outer rim of the large end? Or something small enough to fit through the whole large end but too big to fit through the smaller end? Most DMs would probably rule otherwise, but I'd like to imagine that every point on one ring is mapped to a point on the other, so that passing a small object through the small gate makes it grow proportionally as it exits the larger, and vice versa.

On that note, if you changed the sizes of those Ring Gates, what would happen if you tried to put one through the other?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Any effect that alters your type or that grants a subtype, including most of the polymorph line and metamorphosis, grant all of the benefits thereof unless the creature in question gains a modified version of it (such as warforged). So if you take the form of a fire elemental, you gain the [fire] subtype and thus gain fire immunity. If you gain the [aquatic] subtype, you can breathe water. If you become an outsider, you gain all the martial weapon proficiencies. Most people don't seem to realize that.

If you've got an ability that requires that you be the same type as another creature to pull off, such as the fusion power, you can either use one of the above effects to do a type swap, or if you need the other creature to keep most of its abilities, cast the aberrate spell on both of you. In the case of fusion, you use aberrate, manifest fusion, and if you want it to regain its previous type, or you want to regain yours, simply dismiss aberrate. If you dismiss it on both of you, suddenly you have two different types simultaneously, much like if you'd taken both Dragonwrought and Human Heritage. I imagine that you gain the best qualities of both and can choose which one you qualify as, depending on which benefits you more.

[ATHATH]

Going back to something similar to the OP's remarks on Heal, if a villain is motivated by megalomania or is a psychopath/sociopath (by a horribly unscientific definition, but a common one nonetheless) these are defined as psychological diseases and as such a Remove Disease spell should be effective on them.



This is really smart. I can't believe I never thought of this.

This is more of a Rules Dysfunction than an unintentional spell use, but the Wolf part of Aspect of the Werebeast states that if you have a bite you can attempt to trip as a free action. It doesn't say you need to be using the bite, or that you need to hit with it (despite that being the obvious intention, like an actual Wolf's trip attack.) You can basically bare your fangs and whip out with your hands a thousand times in a second, by the RAW wording of the spell.

I've often wondered, if you made one of a pair of Ring Gates larger or smaller than the other (hold it while using Enlarge/Reduce person, or use Dispel Magic to make it nonmagical for a brief duration and then cast Shrink Item) what would happen to that connection? If something enters the small end it's easy to say the thing just exits a small area of the large end, but what if something enters near the outer rim of the large end? Or something small enough to fit through the whole large end but too big to fit through the smaller end? Most DMs would probably rule otherwise, but I'd like to imagine that every point on one ring is mapped to a point on the other, so that passing a small object through the small gate makes it grow proportionally as it exits the larger, and vice versa.

On that note, if you changed the sizes of those Ring Gates, what would happen if you tried to put one through the other?
I'd rule that the larger Ring Gate's portal would shrink to match the smaller Ring Gate (leaving a gap of normal space between the edge of the portal and the inner edge of the Ring Gate), which conveniently solves the problem presented by your last question.

[Necroticplague]

Any effect that alters your type or that grants a subtype, including most of the polymorph line and metamorphosis, grant all of the benefits thereof unless the creature in question gains a modified version of it (such as warforged). So if you take the form of a fire elemental, you gain the [fire] subtype and thus gain fire immunity. If you gain the [aquatic] subtype, you can breathe water. If you become an outsider, you gain all the martial weapon proficiencies. Most people don't seem to realize that.

Notably, there's the Void subtype for abusing this factoid. Perma-invisible (can renew as free action when you drop it) that beats See Invisible, Purge Invisibility, Blindsight, and Blindsense, and has free evasion!

[Arbane]

It becomes a corpse. Not a corpse of something. A corpse. Period. The statue of a horse becomes a corpse, not a corpse of a horse.

"A corpse is a corpse of course of course, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GAbc5uQXJo)
but no-one can make a corpse of a horse.
Unless of course, that corpse of a horse
is the famous Mister Dead...."

------

On a debatably less-silly note, the PF Bard cantrip Summon instrument summons 'one handheld musical instrument' for 1/minute per level. It does NOT say you can only summon one instrument at a time, or that it vanishes if you drop it, or any similar limitations, just that nobody but you can play it. Which is less-than-important if you're casting Wall of Tubas, or using drums as buckets.

And if you're really hard up for food, consider using Stone to Flesh on random rocks. (Also works as a messy way to destroy a building or get through a wall.)

[Gildedragon]

"[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GAbc5uQXJo]
On a debatably less-silly note, the PF Bard cantrip Summon instrument summons 'one handheld musical instrument' for 1/minute per level. It does NOT say you can only summon one instrument at a time, or that it vanishes if you drop it, or any similar limitations, just that nobody but you can play it. Which is less-than-important if you're casting Wall of Tubas, or using drums as buckets.

Or a rockdrum or a cat-organ

[Deophaun]

"A corpse is a corpse of course of course, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GAbc5uQXJo)
but no-one can make corpse of a horse.
Unless of course, that corpse of a horse
is the famous Mister Dead...."
You have no idea how difficult it was not to edit my post after I read what I wrote.

Well... maybe you do. :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd rule that the larger Ring Gate's portal would shrink to match the smaller Ring Gate (leaving a gap of normal space between the edge of the portal and the inner edge of the Ring Gate), which conveniently solves the problem presented by your last question.

I'd go with the ring gates being one item and both shrinking or growing when one is targetted. Seems like the easiest solution to me.

[Zorku]

I'd go with the ring gates being one item and both shrinking or growing when one is targetted. Seems like the easiest solution to me.
If you go that scarier route it's not a terribly complicated fractal. If you put the small gate in at a right angle then you get a T shape with an even smaller half of a ring sticking out from the small(medium) ring. If you tilt the small (medium) section until the smallest bit sticks into the large gate then it there are two things that can happen: an again reduced bit sticks out of the small (medium) ring, or a section the same size sticks out of the (previously) smallest half ring. You can bend this in a way that it creates a shrinking spiral of little gate slices that reduce forever or until some point where you decide this system either can't be angled precisely enough or until the concept breaks down, a la Ant Man in the quantum realm.

Jumping straight from normal size to infinitesimally small might require some contortion, as the small (medium) gate is blocking half the diameter of the large gate to do any of this, but so long as you enter on the cramped side it's a 1 step trip. If you drop something into the other side it's a pseudo-infinite fall as you shoot through each step down until you miss the target and smash into one of the rings, or sail cleanly past it only to eventually shoot through the largest gate and start over from the beginning, but already fairly small.

Extrapolating fall rules through this many iterations is probably how some of the illithids got the way they are so I recommend coming up with your own rules for that. If you want to go with reality the decreasing surface area will decrease wind resistance, but decreasing mass will more sharply decrease their potential inertia, meaning that wind resistance quickly wins out. Collisions will be very soft relative the the usual tensile strength of skin and especially meaningless for how hard bone is, but the fall into the next ring will start to take ages. If you want to concern yourself with atoms they shouldn't be able to perform any meaningful chemistry with enlarged/reduced molecules, such as oxygen, so either asphixiation is a serious issue or you've created a nasty hole in the atmosphere that will... actually eat the atmosphere relatively slowly.

With the gates not touching each other and a single enlarge/reduce the one gate is 4x the size of the other, which simplifies to a one way hole 3/4ths the size of the large gate. If these arranged into the fractal pattern though, the small gate loses half of its surface area in exchange for a quarter of its surface area... over and over. (Not really, the angles for that don't make any sense, but I just wanted to put that concept out there.) Depending on just how much you're poking gates through gates you can have down to basically just the one half of the smaller gate to play with. For non-infinite fractals the atmosphere is free to flow back through the gates, but smaller atoms can pack much more tightly so there would never be enough pressure to reach equilibrium. Probably don't try to make sense of the air kids.

But that was... simple, enough, right?
If you're able to get any kind of permanent gate near another such gate then you can still clip a circle most of the way through a circle, depending on how thick the rim is. If they're other shapes you can often find an angle where you can pass the one gate fully through the other, provided it's not already knocking into itself in the process.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you go that scarier route it's not a terribly complicated fractal. If you put the small gate in at a right angle then you get a T shape with an even smaller half of a ring sticking out from the small(medium) ring. If you tilt the small (medium) section until the smallest bit sticks into the large gate then it there are two things that can happen: an again reduced bit sticks out of the small (medium) ring, or a section the same size sticks out of the (previously) smallest half ring. You can bend this in a way that it creates a shrinking spiral of little gate slices that reduce forever or until some point where you decide this system either can't be angled precisely enough or until the concept breaks down, a la Ant Man in the quantum realm.

Jumping straight from normal size to infinitesimally small might require some contortion, as the small (medium) gate is blocking half the diameter of the large gate to do any of this, but so long as you enter on the cramped side it's a 1 step trip. If you drop something into the other side it's a pseudo-infinite fall as you shoot through each step down until you miss the target and smash into one of the rings, or sail cleanly past it only to eventually shoot through the largest gate and start over from the beginning, but already fairly small.

Extrapolating fall rules through this many iterations is probably how some of the illithids got the way they are so I recommend coming up with your own rules for that. If you want to go with reality the decreasing surface area will decrease wind resistance, but decreasing mass will more sharply decrease their potential inertia, meaning that wind resistance quickly wins out. Collisions will be very soft relative the the usual tensile strength of skin and especially meaningless for how hard bone is, but the fall into the next ring will start to take ages. If you want to concern yourself with atoms they shouldn't be able to perform any meaningful chemistry with enlarged/reduced molecules, such as oxygen, so either asphixiation is a serious issue or you've created a nasty hole in the atmosphere that will... actually eat the atmosphere relatively slowly.

With the gates not touching each other and a single enlarge/reduce the one gate is 4x the size of the other, which simplifies to a one way hole 3/4ths the size of the large gate. If these arranged into the fractal pattern though, the small gate loses half of its surface area in exchange for a quarter of its surface area... over and over. (Not really, the angles for that don't make any sense, but I just wanted to put that concept out there.) Depending on just how much you're poking gates through gates you can have down to basically just the one half of the smaller gate to play with. For non-infinite fractals the atmosphere is free to flow back through the gates, but smaller atoms can pack much more tightly so there would never be enough pressure to reach equilibrium. Probably don't try to make sense of the air kids.

But that was... simple, enough, right?
If you're able to get any kind of permanent gate near another such gate then you can still clip a circle most of the way through a circle, depending on how thick the rim is. If they're other shapes you can often find an angle where you can pass the one gate fully through the other, provided it's not already knocking into itself in the process.

For clarity's sake, I meant that the rings themselves are always the same size. If you target one with shrink object, they both shrink to the same size. If one is in the possession of a creature that is subjected to enlarge person, both rings grow. At no point could you ever put one through the other more than a bit less than half-way. If you understood this to be my meaning, then I don't see why what you've described couldn't be done with completely unmodified ring gates.

[ShurikVch]

PAO may work as a SoD spell: you can turn creature into corpse; it will revert back to original form, but stay dead
(Note: this way you can dispose of creatures who are usually immune to SoDs - such as Undead -, and even Tarrasque - it will stay dead by the RAW of Polymorph)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

PAO may work as a SoD spell: you can turn creature into corpse; it will revert back to original form, but stay dead
(Note: this way you can dispose of creatures who are usually immune to SoDs - such as Undead -, and even Tarrasque - it will stay dead by the RAW of Polymorph)PAO can also turn a corpse into a living creature. A super-cheap source of resurrection, maybe?

[Bobby Baratheon]

Is there anything preventing you from flesh-to-stone-ing large creatures into marble, then selling it? I don't recall the spell specifying what type of stone it becomes, and I also don't recall anything preventing you from breaking it apart for resale. Turn Big T into a massive lode of marble, then profit. The Tarrasque can prsumably survive a DC 15 fortitude save, so cast stone to flesh, let him regenerate, and repeat the process. You now have an infinite source of any precious stone, presuming you get to select what type of stone he becomes upon casting. If not, you still have an infinite source of stone. Use your imagination!

[Jack_Simth]

Is there anything preventing you from flesh-to-stone-ing large creatures into marble, then selling it? I don't recall the spell specifying what type of stone it becomes, and I also don't recall anything preventing you from breaking it apart for resale. Turn Big T into a massive lode of marble, then profit. The Tarrasque can prsumably survive a DC 15 fortitude save, so cast stone to flesh, let him regenerate, and repeat the process. You now have an infinite source of any precious stone, presuming you get to select what type of stone he becomes upon casting. If not, you still have an infinite source of stone. Use your imagination!

Per Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm): "This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine."

There's a lot of leeway there, but it's the specific DM's definition that matters. You'll almost certainly get normal stone only.

And you might have the problem that broken off pieces of Mr. T are still pieces of Mr. T, and turn back into chunks of Mr. T when you revert the main body.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Per Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm): "This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine."

There's a lot of leeway there, but it's the specific DM's definition that matters. You'll almost certainly get normal stone only.

And you might have the problem that broken off pieces of Mr. T are still pieces of Mr. T, and turn back into chunks of Mr. T when you revert the main body.

Huh. So Polymorph any object rules apply to Flesh-to-stone? I wasn't aware of that, which definitely makes the plan less viable. I also hadn't though of Big T's chunks reverting back. Are there any hard and fast rules on that? That's a pretty logical conclusion, though not the one I'd use as a DM.

[Zorku]

For clarity's sake, I meant that the rings themselves are always the same size. If you target one with shrink object, they both shrink to the same size. If one is in the possession of a creature that is subjected to enlarge person, both rings grow. At no point could you ever put one through the other more than a bit less than half-way. If you understood this to be my meaning, then I don't see why what you've described couldn't be done with completely unmodified ring gates.
Yeah, I understood, and I knew as much. That's why I put out the idea right at the end. You just don't have quite as much to think about if the travellers aren't changing size.


Huh. So Polymorph any object rules apply to Flesh-to-stone? I wasn't aware of that, which definitely makes the plan less viable. I also hadn't though of Big T's chunks reverting back. Are there any hard and fast rules on that? That's a pretty logical conclusion, though not the one I'd use as a DM.

I'm much more interested in the reverse. Turn a stone into Big T then go slicing steaks off and isolate them so he has to regrow the flesh from nothing. If you're going by the "severed chunks revert at the end" behavior you should have a lot greater volume of your starting material. A stubborn DM could rule that it all reverts into the original stone, but this object/creature spent a lot of time regenerating lots parts so that's verging on a petulant ruling.

[ben-zayb]

Using PAO to turn objects into certain artifacts, however...

[Jack_Simth]

Huh. So Polymorph any object rules apply to Flesh-to-stone?
Only when you're using PaO to do it. But then, Flesh to Stone does not specify the type of rock. Why would you expect to be able to specify it?

I wasn't aware of that, which definitely makes the plan less viable. I also hadn't though of Big T's chunks reverting back. Are there any hard and fast rules on that? That's a pretty logical conclusion, though not the one I'd use as a DM.Not specifically, no, but when someone's attempting to go into "infinite wealth" territory, they usually do need to be shut down one way or another. The best way is to talk to the player, of course, but there's a lot of stuff the DM can say while remaining within the actual written rules - such as they are - before rule-0'ing it.

[Bohandas]

flesh to stone + stone shape + stone to flesh = cosmetic surgery

stone to flesh + a butcher's cleaver = cut through wall

Stone to Flesh can also be used to make dinner out of rocks

[Bobby Baratheon]

Only when you're using PaO to do it. But then, Flesh to Stone does not specify the type of rock. Why would you expect to be able to specify it?
Not specifically, no, but when someone's attempting to go into "infinite wealth" territory, they usually do need to be shut down one way or another. The best way is to talk to the player, of course, but there's a lot of stuff the DM can say while remaining within the actual written rules - such as they are - before rule-0'ing it.

Well, it doesn't say you can't. It's hardly unreasonable to be able to specify. If it's a rock, it's also a type of rock.

With regards to infinite wealth, I'm okay with a player implementing the plan (if it's clever and original, and not something they just read off the internet), so long as they're aware that there's always a bigger fish, and that fish isn't going to like that someone lower down the food chain is generating infinite wealth. I'm upfront with them that they might get wealthy off it, but someone's going to take them down, and it won't last forever. The two times it came up, it didn't end up being a problem.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, it doesn't say you can't.

This is a terrible argument that never goes anywhere. The rules also don't say that you can't shoot laser beams out of your butt if you spin in a circle three times and clap your hands as you bend over.

If the rules don't say you can then you can't.

[Coidzor]

There's a spell in Underdark that lets you change some stones into other stones. Might be relevant, though ultimately I think you'd just have good quality building stone as the upper end.

[Bobby Baratheon]

This is a terrible argument that never goes anywhere. The rules also don't say that you can't shoot laser beams out of your butt if you spin in a circle three times and clap your hands as you bend over.

If the rules don't say you can then you can't.

Fair enough, but I think that's a bit of exaggeration. Choosing a type of stone for the spell Flesh to Stone, with the DM's permission, is maybe, just maybe a little bit different than farting out lasers just because it tickles your fancy.

Regardless, it would absolutely be up the DM to allow it, and infinite wealth loops just aren't all that fun in actual play IMO.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fair enough, but I think that's a bit of exaggeration. Choosing a type of stone for the spell Flesh to Stone, with the DM's permission, is maybe, just maybe a little bit different than farting out lasers just because it tickles your fancy.

Regardless, it would absolutely be up the DM to allow it, and infinite wealth loops just aren't all that fun in actual play IMO.

Hyperbole intended to highlight how absurd things get when that argument is seriously entertained. When a person who isn't into geology hears "stone" they get a particular picture in their head, typically non-descript brown or grey rocks IME, and I very strongly suspect that such generic "stone" is what was intended and what most DM's would rule unless they happened to be an amateur geologist or gemologist. That it should be stone that's near worthless is also fairly apparent, IMO.

I also agree that infinite wealth is potentially problematic for a game if it's abused in the way that someone who would seek it would likey put it to use. I like to trust my players not to spend every copper I put down for them on magical gear and absolutely nothing else and, consequenty, offer a fair amount more than the treasure tables would yield alone but that sometimes comes back to bite you.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Hyperbole intended to highlight how absurd things get when that argument is seriously entertained. When a person who isn't into geology hears "stone" they get a particular picture in their head, typically non-descript brown or grey rocks IME, and I very strongly suspect that such generic "stone" is what was intended and what most DM's would rule unless they happened to be an amateur geologist or gemologist. That it should be stone that's near worthless is also fairly apparent, IMO.

I also agree that infinite wealth is potentially problematic for a game if it's abused in the way that someone who would seek it would likey put it to use. I like to trust my players not to spend every copper I put down for them on magical gear and absolutely nothing else and, consequenty, offer a fair amount more than the treasure tables would yield alone but that sometimes comes back to bite you.

Again, fair enough. I've got no beef with that argument. I don't think it's out of bounds to ask the DM permission to have it be a certain type of stone (especially if it's just for Rule of Cool purposes), but hey different strokes for different folks. :smallwink: And I'm certainly not in favor of just wholecloth inventing things because the rules don't say you can't (like the whole "you can act normally after dying because nothing says you can't" schtick).

With regards to the wealth, I'm with you. I'm of the opinion that giving players reasonably generous amounts of wealth encourages them to spend it on things that don't just give pluses. I've been pretty generous with my current group, and they've invested in some pretty dumb stuff just for fun/roleplaying. Just a couple weeks ago they put down some money to start a bulette breeding/training program. Not for profit, mind you, but because they captured a bulette and want to teach it to fight with a howdah with mounted cannons. They're level 8, so it's hardly going to give them a massive edge in combat, but they want to and I'm perfectly okay with it.

[Chronikoce]

So make sure to balance if killing catgirls.


Why would you want to kill catgirls? That is a waste of their considerable potential.

Use criminals and have the catgirls act as "entertainment specialists" who manage your gambling ring which allows people to bet on how long someone survives.

Or extend it further into the entertainment genre and remove the wheel. Toss a group of people into the falling cycle then toss in some blunt weapons and have them fight it out while the catgirls provide commentary for the spectacle and take bets. You could even be generous and have an extraction plan to remove the survivor safely and maybe even a cash prize so that you'd get volunteers/glory seekers.

You'd probably want to wall of force a rectangle shell around the portal regions so that the combat wouldn't accidently allow someone to escape the loop. Or don't put the walls their and place the portals over a volcano thus making being knocked out severely detrimental.

[Deophaun]

If a player is going for infinite wealth, I doubt a convoluted plot using stone to flesh would be their go-to method of doing it. Especially when fabricate comes online earlier and can create millions of gold per casting.

[Bobby Baratheon]

If a player is going for infinite wealth, I doubt a convoluted plot using stone to flesh would be their go-to method of doing it. Especially when fabricate comes online earlier and can create millions of gold per casting.

I was really more just curious to see if it could be done than anything else. Wall of salt is a pretty good money maker too, but honestly as a player I would prefer to go on adventures or pull off a heist to get money. Boring-but-practical is, well, efficient but I've never really done it in game. I am curious to see if it could be done, and maybe if I could use for a villain plot. It'd make one heck of an onsite raw material source for a big construction project.

[Aleolus]

Why would you want to kill catgirls? That is a waste of their considerable potential.

Use criminals and have the catgirls act as "entertainment specialists" who manage your gambling ring which allows people to bet on how long someone survives.

Or extend it further into the entertainment genre and remove the wheel. Toss a group of people into the falling cycle then toss in some blunt weapons and have them fight it out while the catgirls provide commentary for the spectacle and take bets. You could even be generous and have an extraction plan to remove the survivor safely and maybe even a cash prize so that you'd get volunteers/glory seekers.

You'd probably want to wall of force a rectangle shell around the portal regions so that the combat wouldn't accidently allow someone to escape the loop. Or don't put the walls their and place the portals over a volcano thus making being knocked out severely detrimental.

He was referencing the meme "Every time you bring real physics into a discussion about a fantasy setting, god kills. a catgirl. Please think of the catgirls"

[Chronikoce]

He was referencing the meme "Every time you bring real physics into a discussion about a fantasy setting, god kills. a catgirl. Please think of the catgirls"

Ah OK, then I'll leave the physics for my graduate work and preserve the catgirls for running my free fall arena of death.