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View Full Version : Critique my Tweaks Part 2 – Moon Druid



mer.c
2016-03-23, 08:34 PM
Welcome to the second edition of Critique my Tweaks! This time, I'm looking at balancing Moon Druid in advance of one of my players picking up the kit for Princes of the Apocalypse. I'm a novice at DMing and at 5e, so I'd love any feedback the good folks at GitP could provide.

My goals are to encourage fun, balanced gameplay without adding too much additional complexity or making broad, sweeping changes to the fundaments of the ruleset. So in general, I prefer to introduce a new mechanic, ability, or tweak instead of rewriting an entire kit.

So, here's what I'm looking at. Also note that with these tweaks, I'd be ruling out Monk Martial Arts/Unarmored Defense/Ki abilities while shapeshifted, so no worries about overpowering Monk/Druid multiclass.


Circle of the Moon

Problem: Actually, there are several. At level 2, Moon Druids are absolute monsters, and can trivialize an encounter and/or other characters' contributions. At level 6, they seem to balance out. Past that point, they get weaker and weaker, until level 20, when they get pretty nuts again.

Alongside the level-to-level imbalance, Moon Druids have a few other troubles in my opinion. Namely, their enhanced wild shape doesn't give them much other than huge gobs of extra HP. The AC is generally pretty awful, the damage isn't very impressive, and you have no intrinsic way punishing your enemies from ignoring you (aside from maybe trying to knock Moonbeam off of you or something). So along with toning down the early-level supremacy, I'd look at giving them some new toys to play with across the board. My hope is that this would give them a smoother power curve that feels good from start to finish.

Tweaks

Circle Forms (changed): Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Wild Shape to transform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1/2. Starting at 4th level, you can transform into a beast with challenge rating as high as 1. Starting at 6th level, you can transform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as your druid level divided by 3, rounded down. (You ignore the Max. CR column of the Beast Shapes table, but must abide by the other limitations there.)

You can use your wild shape two times at 2nd level. This increases to 3 times at 5th level and 4 times at 17th level. You regain expended wild shape uses when you finish a short or long rest.

Natural Predator: Starting at 11th level, when you are under the effect of wild shape, you can expend a spell slot as a bonus action to gain one of the following effects. These effects end if you change shape for any reason.

Primal Fury: Target one creature per level of spell slot expended within 15 feet of you. Until your next turn, each affected creature has disadvantage on all attack rolls against targets other than you or another creature with this feature. A creature is immune to this effect if it can't see or hear you or if it can't be frightened.
Savage Might: Your wild shape form’s natural weapons deal an additional 1d6 damage on your first attack each turn per round and you give +1 to attack rolls for number of rounds equal to 1 plus the level of spell slot expended. If your wild shape is merged with a Druid weapon with a +2 or greater enchantment, the bonus to attack rolls becomes +2 instead of +1.
Wild Endurance: You gain +3 natural armor class for a number of rounds equal to 1 plus the level of the spell slot expended.


Reasoning

The first change (wild shape CR progression) means a lower jump in power at level 2, while leaving most of the progression intact and still making sure Brown Bear get its time to shine.

The second change (wild shape charge progression) does two things: it gives Moon Druids a little more flexibility/longevity early on, and it eliminates the imbalance of infinite Fast Healing 126 at level 20. It does this without fundamentally altering the way wild shape works, which I like to try to do when possible. I know some people address it by making the humanoid form take damage from wild shape damage, or by stunning a character on reverting, but I feel like the crux of the problem is more the unlimited uses than the mechanic itself. If people feel strongly that there should also be a stiffer penalty for taking damage in wild shape, I can consider that too.

Of course, this means Druids would need a new capstone, which I'm fine with. I don't intend to bring our group to level 20, but I'm working on some capstone ideas just in case (one for Land Circle and one for Moon Circle). They'd probably be pretty potent, since they're replacing one of the best capstones in the game. Personally I'd hope to make them a little less powerful (at least for Moon Druids with bonus-action wild shape), but more flashy and fun.

The third change (Natural Predator) is bigger in scope, definitely. But I think it makes sense, and it's not overly complicated. The purpose is to pad Moon Druids out in some places they're lacking while giving them an additional way to get use out of spellslots during wild shape. It also mirrors the Martial classes' level 11 damage bump (3rd attack, Improved Divine Smite, etc.). I think giving Moon Druids an equivalent permanent bump would send them over the top. So my hope is that by making them them expend an existing, limited resource for it, it will be fun, useful, and balanced. Also, while I'm not trying to balance one against the other, I really like the parallel between Natural Predator and Divine Smite. Finally, Savage Might means at least your enchanted weapon can do something while you're in wild shape, which is a nice bonus.

Potential Pitfalls

These numbers are untested and unrefined. If I keep these mechanics, they'd need some tuning. So there's that to consider. I realize that adding +1 enchantment at +1d6 is a lot, as is adding +3 AC. But at 1 turn per level of spell expended, and with wild shapes' generally poor damage and AC, that felt like a good place to start. Also remember that we can't just compare to, say, Shield or Divine Smite because the entire class has to be factored into the balancing equation.

Further, this could represent just too much utility on Moon Druids. Giving them the potential to exchange resources for extra tanking power, extra defense, or extra damage might give them too much flexibility, letting them fill too many rolls at a whim. I doubt they'd be able to parallel a focused build (they're not getting the damage resistance + extended disadvantage of Bear Barbarians, or the resilience of a Defense martial class, the sustained damage of a Rogue, the nova ability of a Paladin…), but getting those abilities on top of being a full spellcaster is quite a bit. I'd hope that tying the abilities to an existing long-rest-limited resource will keep things in check.

Finally, while I hope these changes would average out to being balanced against other classes, I don't know what that would do to Moon Druid vs. Land Druid balance. As I understand it, it's generally thought that Land Druids are fine if not extraordinary full casters, but lacking a bit compared to what Moon Druids get with their gobs of HP supported by concentration spells for DPR. Shoring up some of Moon Druids' weaknesses might put Land Druids in a bad spot in comparison, even if the former has some of its strengths brought back into line. If people feel like that's the case, I'll consider a few tweaks for Land Druids too.

––––––––––

My hope is that these changes would smooth out the Moon Druid's power curve, which currently starts high and peaks very early, then tapers off, then jumps way up again at level 20. I'd love to hear what people think on numbers, balance, aesthetic, rules consistency, etc. Does Natural Predator go too far? Does it come at the right time?

Thanks for reading – looking forward to seeing what people have to say!



Previous Critique my Tweaks
Avatar Monk and Beast Master Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481195-Avatar-Monk-and-Beast-Master-%96-Critique-my-Tweaks&highlight=critique+my+tweaks)

Zman
2016-03-23, 09:25 PM
I definitely approve of the project goals, haha. I like to keep things simple if possible, greatest effect with the smallest footprint.

What about this Wildshape progression?

Lvl2 1/4 Druid Level
Lvl6 1/3 Druid Level
Lvl8 1/2 Druid Level

Also grant +Proficiency Bonus to AC and Damage. Only problem is the lack of forms.

Also, specify that you must return to your natural form before assuming a new form and you cannot alter your form twice in the same round. Also, being forcibly reverted by being dropped to 0HP adds a level of exhaustion. That should at least help out with the lvl20 issue.

Goober4473
2016-03-23, 10:17 PM
Personally, I just limit them to CR 1/2 at level 2, then normal CR at level 3 and onward.

I think the important thing to remember is, they are still full spellcasters, and the combat forms should be compared only to the extra abilities circle of the land gives you. Sure, turning into a CR 5 beast at level 15 isn't amazing, but the extra survivability and versatility is probably worth at least as much as the extra few spells known and recharged spell slot(s) that a land druid gets at that point.

SharkForce
2016-03-24, 08:39 AM
as has been noted elsewhere, moon druids *should* suck as a warrior in wild shape form. they're a full caster already. if they can be a 90% martial in addition to being a full caster, then you're not going to be able to help overshadowing martials.

about the only fix i feel is necessary is to the capstone, which is just silly. the solution is simple: the capstone gives you unlimited uses of *regular* wild shape. you can continue to use your 2 moon druid wild shapes as you please, plus you can turn into various low CR forms as often as you wish. it's still useful (it provides all the utility of unlimited wild shape) but not nearly as overbearing (because it provides a lot less of the combat power).

i still think i'd be inclined to add some ribbons to land druid at some point (they're a bit bland, imo), but they should be more or less fine as far as power is concerned.

mer.c
2016-03-24, 10:18 AM
Edit to OP: Made a change that the 1d6 would apply to one attack per turn for balance purposes.

Thank you all for the feedback! Zman, I think full proficiency progression would be too much, but maybe a half-proficiency (round down) progression would work in its place? 23 AC on top of an Earth Elementa's 126 HP and mundane resistences seems… daunting, to say the least. :smallwink:


as has been noted elsewhere, moon druids *should* suck as a warrior in wild shape form. they're a full caster already. if they can be a 90% martial in addition to being a full caster, then you're not going to be able to help overshadowing martials.

Absolutely! I'm not trying to make Moon Druids 90% a martial while also being full casters. The goal is to let Moon Druids get more use out of their defining feature, being maybe two-thirds martial (if even that), and doing it by eating away at their spellcasting potential. Don't think of it as a World of Warcraft druid who hits a button and has access to a totally different resource pool. To get to that two-thirds or less martial, they're degrading themselves to maybe a two-thirds or less caster, too.

Take Paladins as a point of comparison. Martially, they're reasonably close Fighters while also having half spell progression with excellent spells. Moon Druids shouldn't be able to sacrifice half their spellcasting resources to be as Martial as a Paladin, because the Moon Druid can also forsake their Martial side and go full caster (or almost), which the Paladin can't do. The balancing point should be the potential to choose between (mostly) full caster or somewhat worse Martial, not to do both of those things as well as others. Sorry if I didn't make that point clearly.

To look at a concrete example: assume a level 11 Druid becomes a Giant Scorpion. It's now a 15 AC, 52 HP creature with +4 modifier attacks for average 6+6+7 damage. The first two can grapple (base DC 12 to escape), the 3rd has a DC 12 Con save vs 22 average poison damage. By burning a 3rd-level spell slot, the Druid can have 4 rounds of AC 18, or of +1 hit/damage (+2 if the Druid has a +2 or higher weapon melded with the form), plus 1d6 once per turn. Those are nice bonuses, but I don't think they're overpowered when you consider that they just spent one of their 3rd level slots on that instead of on Call Lightning, Wind Wall, or Tidal Wave while in humanoid form.

I admit that the ability to instead give disadvantage on up to 3 creatures for one round may be too good, and may need to be tweaked/removed. But are the other benefits going to make the Druid more martial than a Paladin? I doubt it. If so, I think the numbers can be tweaked to where they're balanced while still being a meaningful part of the fixes to some of the problems Moon Druids suffer from. I don't know where the best balance point is, which is why I'm opening it up for feedback. But if the consensus is that the abilities are inherently flawed, I'm cool with changing things, too.


i still think i'd be inclined to add some ribbons to land druid at some point (they're a bit bland, imo), but they should be more or less fine as far as power is concerned.

Totally agreed. Land Druid spellcasting seems fine to me*, but I think the perks from their kit are behind other spellcasting kits. I don't think that means they're underpowered per se, so adding some ribbons would be a great way of trying to balance them out.

*It suffers from the same problems as Clerics in that their selections at high levels are way behind arcane casters, but I think that's a broader problem than I'm working on here.

Foxhound438
2016-03-24, 10:24 AM
Savage Might: Your wild shape form’s natural weapons deal an additional 1d6 damage once per round and become +1 weapons for a number of rounds equal to twice the level of spell slot expended. If your wild shape is merged with a Druid weapon with a +2 or greater enchantment, your wild shape’s natural weapons become +2 weapons instead of +1 weapons.


my plan just became "always find the creature with the most attacks"

mer.c
2016-03-24, 10:36 AM
my plan just became "always find the creature with the most attacks"

That's a good point. I hadn't taken form-to-form balance into account. Even without the +1 or +2 damage per hit, extra chances at the 1d6 would be pretty good.

SharkForce
2016-03-24, 11:03 AM
DC 12 is not the relevant part of the scorpion's grapple. the fact that you have to spend your action to attempt (and probably succeed at) escaping is the relevant part.

but in any event, a level 11 moon druid can turn into an elemental and get much more impressive results, if that is the desire. and i wouldn't describe them as being a mostly full spellcaster. they may not have a ton of features, but their spell list is good enough that they don't need a ton of supporting features to make them rather good spellcasters. who can then turn into a bear, or a scorpion, or an elemental, and add some value to the spells they've cast.

but seriously, moon druids are not *mostly* full casters, they *are* full casters. sunbeam, reverse gravity, feeblemind, shapechange, planar/binding + conjure fey, tsunami, antipathy/sympathy, this kind of spell list is enough to make anyone a force to be reckoned with.

mer.c
2016-03-24, 07:59 PM
…i wouldn't describe them as being a mostly full spellcaster. they may not have a ton of features, but their spell list is good enough that they don't need a ton of supporting features to make them rather good spellcasters. who can then turn into a bear, or a scorpion, or an elemental, and add some value to the spells they've cast.

Fair enough. I only caveated it to point out that they give up a little bit of their spellcasting oomph by not choosing Land Druid, not to diminish the impact of thir full spellcasting progression and good spell list. I probably should have just put it that way to begin with.

I also went back and retooled the Bear-Barbarian-Lite ability to target all enemies in 5 feet, and to require a Wisdom save with DC = 1/2 spellcasting DC + level of spell slot expended. Seems like if it would be kept, giving it a chance for failure would be necessary to keep it in line.

On the broader point, are people generally feeling like mid-level wild shapes are good enough to justify picking Moon Druid if their early-level and endgame power spikes are leveled out? I'll be DMing one soon so I'll get to see for myself, but I always appreciate feedback. :smallsmile: