Cleric with Magic Initiate (Feat) + Green Flame Blade / Booming blade (Cantrip)

[lkwpeter]

Hey there!

A cleric in our group thinks about taking the Magic Initiate feat, that grants a character two cantrips from the spell list of its choice.

That allows him to pick Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (p. 142).

Now the rules seem to be fine. But to be honest, this just seems absolutely INSANE in comparism to others classes.

Now one talent converts a normal melee attack (lets say 1d8 with a warhammer) into **1d8 weapon dmg + 1d8 extra dmg + 1d8 extra dmg to another target.** on level 5! And it's even more scaling! And the cleric class offers a lot of strong things like casting, etc..

Furthermore with the War Caster feat the cleric could even cast Booming Blade as an Opportunity Attack dealing **2d8 wepaon damage + 2d8 booming blade damage** (if the target moves further).


AND ALL THIS WITHOUT ANY COSTS, because it is a cantrip!

In addition Divine Strike from the cleric domain (1d8 extra damage) also stacks.

Now I love strong characters. But with a view to RP: Does is make sense to hand that spells to any class in combination with the Magic Initiate feat? Or should it normally be reserved for the mentioned sub-classes like Bladesingers, Wizards of Comyr, Warlocks of the Pact? To all the DMs out ther: How do *you* rule that? Isn't it a bit overpowered?

Would be glad about answers!

Thanks in advance!
Peter

[HoarsHalberd]

They're already available to all wizards, bards and sorcerers. They are a very good choice for taking with magic initiate with clerics but for the cost of a feat that could be used on warcaster, GWM or PM it's hardly the most powerful use of the feat.

[Citan]

Hey there!

A cleric in our group thinks about taking the Magic Initiate feat, that grants a character two cantrips from the spell list of its choice.

That allows him to pick Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (p. 142).

Now one talent converts a normal melee attack (lets say 1d8 with a warhammer) into **1d8 weapon dmg + 1d8 extra dmg + 1d8 extra dmg to another target.** on level 5! And it's even more scaling! And the cleric class offers a lot of strong things like casting, etc..

Furthermore with the War Caster feat the cleric could even cast Booming Blade as an Opportunity Attack dealing **2d8 wepaon damage + 2d8 booming blade damage** (if the target moves further).


AND ALL THIS WITHOUT ANY COSTS, because it is a cantrip!

Hi :)

Well, I don't think it's overpowered for several reasons.
1. Contrarily to your say, it's clearly not without a cost: it costs a Feat (or two if you also grasp Warcaster), which means a lost chance at improving WIS (spellcasting stat) or CON (to help keep concentration).

2. Many Clerics will spend higher levels casting spells at a distance, going into melee only on some occasions, but not as a permanent frontliner. Except some domains such as War which really encourage melee fighting. :)

Taking the feat just means you switch your focus from concentrating on important spells while casting Sacred Flame or using ranged weapons to instead become a true combatant that stick close to his enemies (meaning much more risk to lose concentration and generally more danger). Especially more if you want to take Warcaster to use BB on opportunity attacks.
You still won't be outperforming any "true" martial by far, you'll be just a bit more efficient that most primary caster (due to Domain extra damage) and around the level of a Paladin's normal attack.
Especially since (unless high roll stats or was planned since the start) you will probably have lesser attack stat than the others.

TL;DR: I don't think there is any overpowerness involved, you just trade security (stay at range) for more power.

[MrStabby]

One thing to add is that a lot of additional damage bonuses you could have come from bonus attacks, which are pretty hard to get with a cleric casting a cantrip. If the feat you took was something like Pole Arm Master instead of Magic Initiate you would get d4+str damage as a bonus attack anyway (+ the other benefits).

The challenge with the cleric then becomes to find a good use for the bonus action each turn. Not saying there are not options - great weapon master for example, but then you trade a shield for a bonus action and have to be up in people's faces (so more lost concentration).

It is good, and it can be a character defining spell, but i don't think it is game breaking.

[NewDM]

Hi :)
...
1. Contrarily to your say, it's clearly not without a cost: it costs a Feat (or two if you also grasp Warcaster), which means a lost chance at improving WIS (spellcasting stat) or CON (to help keep concentration).
...

Warcaster is much better than getting another +1 to CON. Warcaster gives advantage on concentration checks which increases your chance to succeed by 10%-30%. Plus all the other goodies that warcaster gives like being able to use a versatile weapon two handed while casting either of the blade cantrips.

[Theodoxus]

My cleric did similar, but started high elf, with booming blade, then took magic initiate for shillelagh (and greatberry). I found being able to concentrate on Wis to attacks really helped with MAD that the OP would have, as the cantrips use a melee attack to hit.

I've been pretty happy with the combination so far, but I'm far from the best combatant, even at 5th. I had to forego getting a 20 Wis for the sake of the feat... so my spells don't stick quite as often and my combat isn't on par with the rest of the party with their 20s in their primary stats...

[Renewal]

Keep in mind, the SCAG melee cantrips essentially only bring full casters up to par with martial classes, and still requires the stat investment to make it worthwhile. It does make casters more versatile and encroaches a little on martial classes' generally unparalleled at-will damage, but it's not game-breaking.

[Citan]

Warcaster is much better than getting another +1 to CON. Warcaster gives advantage on concentration checks which increases your chance to succeed by 10%-30%. Plus all the other goodies that warcaster gives like being able to use a versatile weapon two handed while casting either of the blade cantrips.
Well, I never said anything as such as what you implies... ^^
I was discussing the "Magic Initiate" VS "other Feat" here.

But since you want to go this way, I think it's important to note that Warcaster > Resilient (CON) ONLY for some casters. A pure Wizard for example would probably never want to go into melee (unless maybe Bladesinger), so half the benefit of the feat is wasted most of the time.

Moreover, as far as "saving throws" are concerned, what you say (or rather, the way you say it) is blatantly wrong.
The main benefit of Resilient is not the +1 to stat (with potential +1 modifier), it's the proficiency in saving throws.

Meaning competition between "advantage" and "proficiency". Which is won by Warcaster at lower levels, but outshone by Resilient at the higher levels (in addition to give a flat increase to survivability if you planned ahead to get an even stat), since it's a flat +6 in addition to the CON(+1?) modifier. :)
If you'd like some numbers to chew on, I stumbled upon this very interesting table (http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/2012/06/11/dd-advantage-vs-flat-bonuses/) some while ago.

So, in short, Warcaster is not "much better than Resilient" for all builds. Only for those that are heavily geared towards melee spellcasters.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The melee cantrips basically serve as a replacement for Extra Attack, with a little less damage and a little more rider. Normal attack + d8 is much less than two normal attacks-- normal attack +2d8 is still only roughly equivalent to two normal attacks at d8+4. Warcaster into Booming Blade is two feats for a bit of added BFC; Polearm Master + Sentinel does the same thing but better.

And there's definitely an opportunity cost-- first that you took the feat instead of something else (Resilient, Polearm Master, GWM, your ASI, etc), and the second that you took the cantrip(s) instead of something else-- Eldritch Blast, Shillelagh, Guidance, Create Bondfire, any of the other top-tier cantrips.

[RulesJD]

Remember:

Cantrips taken from Magic Initiate use the casting stat of the class they are taken from.

This doesn't matter at all for BB, but it does for GFB. The +to damage on the secondary part of GFB uses the casting stat of the class it gets taken from, so either Int or Cha.

[Degwerks]

Hey there!

A cleric in our group thinks about taking the Magic Initiate feat, that grants a character two cantrips from the spell list of its choice.

That allows him to pick Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (p. 142).

Now the rules seem to be fine. But to be honest, this just seems absolutely INSANE in comparism to others classes.

Now one talent converts a normal melee attack (lets say 1d8 with a warhammer) into **1d8 weapon dmg + 1d8 extra dmg + 1d8 extra dmg to another target.** on level 5! And it's even more scaling! And the cleric class offers a lot of strong things like casting, etc..

Furthermore with the War Caster feat the cleric could even cast Booming Blade as an Opportunity Attack dealing **2d8 wepaon damage + 2d8 booming blade damage** (if the target moves further).


AND ALL THIS WITHOUT ANY COSTS, because it is a cantrip!

In addition Divine Strike from the cleric domain (1d8 extra damage) also stacks.

Now I love strong characters. But with a view to RP: Does is make sense to hand that spells to any class in combination with the Magic Initiate feat? Or should it normally be reserved for the mentioned sub-classes like Bladesingers, Wizards of Comyr, Warlocks of the Pact? To all the DMs out ther: How do *you* rule that? Isn't it a bit overpowered?

Would be glad about answers!

Thanks in advance!
Peter

If I was that player i'd save a feat & choose the Arcana Domain from SCAG. Gain 2 cantrips from wizard list that are treated as Cleric spells using my wisdom. At 8th level I would also get to add my wisdom bonus to damage on cleric cantrips too.

Actually I think I would grab Arcana domain & magic initiate feat, for Shillelagh & Goodberry. Max out my wisdom, use it for Shillelagh attack & damage, plus wisdom dmg again at 8th lvl for GFB/BB cantrips.

[AmbientRaven]

Rogue with Booming blade does 1D6+Dex+Sneak+Booming Blade damage. Even more than cleric.
Paladin with booming blade can do 2D6+Str+10(weapon master feat)+Smite+Booming for even more

Cleric is the least of your concern :)

[Foxhound438]

If I was that player i'd save a feat & choose the Arcana Domain from SCAG. Gain 2 cantrips from wizard list that are treated as Cleric spells using my wisdom. At 8th level I would also get to add my wisdom bonus to damage on cleric cantrips too.

Actually I think I would grab Arcana domain & magic initiate feat, for Shillelagh & Goodberry. Max out my wisdom, use it for Shillelagh attack & damage, plus wisdom dmg again at 8th lvl for GFB/BB cantrips.

pretty much this. I tried it, it wasn't actually great. you need to be something race wise that starts with weapon proficiencies, so dwarf, elf, or vuman with magic init. shilelagh. The spells are far from overpowered, compared to martial classes.

Cleric would have 2d8+4 (13) at level 5, 2d8+8 (17) at 8, 3d8+8 (21.5) at 11 and 4d8+10 (28) at 17.

s+b fighter gets 2d8+8 (17) at 5, 2d8+10 (19) and an extra feat by 8, 3d8+15 (28.5) at 11 and at 20 go to 4d8+20 (38).

so even when the martial goes limp on damage he still gets more damage. The rider effects for the cantrips are neat but far from broken.

[Foxhound438]

Rogue with Booming blade does 1D6+Dex+Sneak+Booming Blade damage. Even more than cleric.
Paladin with booming blade can do 2D6+Str+10(weapon master feat)+Smite+Booming for even more

Cleric is the least of your concern :)

good on rogue, but the paladin is really better off just swinging twice.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I was mathing out various forms of attack on an Eldritch knight today. I was trying to figure out if the spells gained from the Fire Genasi race were useful, or too low of damage compared to normal attacks. While I was doing it I also looked into Booming blade and Greenflame

Even if you only consider single target damage, the cantrips are strictly better than attacking as an EK at levels:
1 and 2 (If you somehow have the cantrips at this point)
3 and 4 (Same damage, but you get a rider)
7 to 10 (War Magic allows you to cast and get an attack)
and 17 to 19

At levels 5 and 6, even if the effect triggers you are doing similar total damage as attacking.
at levels 11 to 16, if the effect triggers you are doing much higher total damage using the cantrip, if not attacking is slightly better.
At level 20, if the effect triggers it does a bit more total damage than attacking, otherwise attacking is much more damaging.

This was done using the assumption of using a mundane great sword without further feats. Obviously a feat like GWM or PM would do a lot to enhance mundane attack damage.

And here it is visually in a graph showing Damage vs Level:

http://s23.postimg.org/wfd4u656j/EK_damage_chart.jpg
Note: The Greenflame and Booming blade damage-without-triggering-the-rider lines overlap perfectly in the above graph.

[Gtdead]

Most classes can do this. Also most classes can multiclass easier into sorceror for quicken/twin to get an extra attack.

Personally I think that it's high time that they gave us some melee cantrips for clerics.

[DracoKnight]

Rogue with Booming blade does 1D6+Dex+Sneak+Booming Blade damage. Even more than cleric.

Quite often 1d8*+Dex+Sneak+Booming Blade

*rapier

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Basically for any class with only a single attack, if that character plans on using their attack, getting these cantrips is pretty much a no-brainer.

For instance a lore bard can easily keep up with a valor bard for melee attacks at level 6 by grabbing either one.

[DracoKnight]

The rider effects for the cantrips are neat but far from broken.


good on rogue, but the paladin is really better off just swinging twice.

True. But I would like to remind you that the riders are more damage. Green-flame blade does splash damage to a creature within 5 feet of the original target, and this goes up to a max of 3d8+spellcasting mod. Booming blade does more damage on voluntary movement to a max of 4d8.

For green-flame blade that's an average of (assuming longsword/rapier) 4d8+5 (STR/DEX) (25) + 3d8+5 (20) for an average of 45 damage in optimal conditions. Booming blade has the same initial average of 25, plus another 4d8 (20) or 45 damage. This is pretty decent damage from a single attack, and then if you stack Divine Smite (let's assume 4th level for 5d8, or 25 damage, and a greatsword for an average of 7) 2d6+3d8+5+3d8+5+5d8 = 72 damage. That's with green-flame blade. Booming blade used by a paladin works out to 2d6+3d8+5+4d8+5d8 = another 72 damage. This can be of course boosted by spells such as elemental weapon, or divine favor. And if you picked Great Weapon Fighting style, then depending on your DM, you're rerolling all 1s and 2s on those dice.

For a rogue the averages are 1d8+5+3d8+3d8+5+10d6, or 75 damage on average for green-flame blade, and the same total for booming blade.

Basically, my point is that you can't forget the riders are worth more damage. Their trigger won't always be met, but it's not hard to meet the trigger, either.

[MeeposFire]

good on rogue, but the paladin is really better off just swinging twice.

debatable on rogue. Remember the attack action allows you to two weapon fight which gives you two attempts at sneak attack which is worth more damage. The cantrip will increase damage on a hit but actual DPR may be lower.

[Southpaw]

If I was that player i'd save a feat & choose the Arcana Domain from SCAG. Gain 2 cantrips from wizard list that are treated as Cleric spells using my wisdom. At 8th level I would also get to add my wisdom bonus to damage on cleric cantrips too.

Actually I think I would grab Arcana domain & magic initiate feat, for Shillelagh & Goodberry. Max out my wisdom, use it for Shillelagh attack & damage, plus wisdom dmg again at 8th lvl for GFB/BB cantrips.

It is definitely a fun combo. It is quite nice to see a a pissed off cleric running around with GFB, shillelagh, Spiritual Weapon, and Spiritual Guardians all going at once. Every class should shine in combat occasionally. I have done the same thing above but with a Nature Cleric for Shillelagh/Heavy Armor and GFB/Find Familiar from the Magic Initiate feat.

[bid]

Plus all the other goodies that warcaster gives like being able to use a versatile weapon two handed while casting either of the blade cantrips.
Not really.
- BB/GFB doesn't have somatic component, so warcaster does nothing.
- BB/GFB has a material component, but since it's a weapon...
- You can cast any spell while holding a 2h/versatile weapon.
"Two-Handed (p. 147). This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it."

[Drackolus]

Personally, I'd go as far to say that without one of those cantrips, there's no good reason for a non-war cleric to use their weapon in any situation. Very slightly more damage of an easier to resist and avoid damage form versus sacred flame, and you have to get up in their face to do it. Divine Strike barely keeps melee attacks relevant. Which sorta sucks, since I went through the effort of giving my cleric m.initiate:druid for shillelagh and goodberry, only to realize after 5 levels that I'm better off just using sacred flame every round. Time to dig out the good ol' spell sniper, I guess.