Warpriests: Cestus, Unarmed, or Sacred Fist?

[weezymeisner]

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could help me sort out some of the pros/cons between a few different types of Warpriests who want to punch things.

I originally was hoping to do a warpriest of strength and luck. At first I considered 2 handed attacking but thought that was a little dull, and thought that a true Warpriest of strength would probably want to use his fists more than a weapon if it were viable.

My initial thought was to use a dual cestuses as they can take advantage of the sacred weapon bonus, but then I heard it's better to use unarmed strikes for improved unarmed strike? And then people said it would be better just to go Sacred Fist, but I feel that's getting a bit outside the original idea since it seems like it's more a dextrous monk build with cleric flair rather than a strong warpriest who uses brute force to solve problems.

One big issue I saw was the lack of attacks if you don't go Sacred Fist (since you wouldn't have flurry of blows) plus you'd have to invest in two weapon fighting which requires a lot of dex investment for a strength based build...

One thing, does the cestus' option to do bludgeoning or piercing attacks make them potentially more useful?

I don't need it to be optimal but is there any way to go the cestus route? Would other blessings be more advantageous for that?

I don't know a ton about two weapon fighting but it feels like a boxer-style build shouldn't be as complicated as a fighter wielding two more complicated weapons?

Thank you!

[Captain Morgan]

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ri77&page=13?Warpriest-guide-Fight-for-your-god

The actual guide here is pretty worthless (use the much better one from N. Jolly) but from page 13 onwards there is some very in depth analysis of Dex vs strength and Vanilla vs Sacred Fist.

[Geddy2112]

You can dual cestus to improve your crit range and get piercing damage, but if you have weapon focus-unarmed strike, you can apply all the sacred weapon bonuses to your bare hands. Both are fine and don't need sacred fist, because sacred weapon will keep increasing the damage. It progresses a level slower than monk unarmed damage, but I assume you want to be in heavy armor, get sacred armor, and you don't want to be a monk. It will still keep damage pace with the rest of the party, and you won't have flurry and maybe not even two weapon fighting, but it is not the end of the world. Two weapon fighting is really only good if you have damage that stacks on each attack like sneak attack and dex to damage.

The cestus is not the only way to get piercing damage-several style feats give piercing, slashing, or both to your unarmed strikes if you choose. Since you have improved unarmed strike and will probably have ranks in the relevant skills, I would consider getting a style feat. Snake is one of my personal favorites, but there are plenty of good ones to choose. You might want dragon for a strength based face bashing build. Since style feats are also combat feats, you can use your warpriest bonus feats to get them(helping get past the 3/4 BAB).

[weezymeisner]

Thank you both! These are both sorry helpful!

I'm a little curious if it would be feasible to do dual cestus/unarmed without two weapon fighting? Seems like it would probably be pretty disadvantaging?

[Geddy2112]

Thank you both! These are both sorry helpful!

I'm a little curious if it would be feasible to do dual cestus/unarmed without two weapon fighting? Seems like it would probably be pretty disadvantaging?

It is, you will choose quality over quantity. As I said, two weapon fighting and mass attacking usually comes with massive negative penalties. Most of the time, these builds are adding a ton of damage(sneak attack) to each strike, so it makes sense to throw a LOT of attacks because if a single hit connects, it will do considerable damage. Critfishing with a 15/20 weapon also works, because a 15 on the dice, even with negatives from extra swings will usually hit, and crits are extra damage. However, sneak attack is situational, and some enemies are immune to sneak attack, criticals, or both.

But flurrying or two weapon fighting comes with penalty, and does not usually have a ton of extra damage dealing potential per attack. Hence, misses add up. By focusing on fewer attacks, you want to focus on making sure each one connects. Likewise, you can invest in each attack for extra damage or status effects. A perfect example of this is channel smite- a feat every warpriest should take if they can use negative energy. This allows you to add considerable damage to an attack, but it is lost if you miss, so this is best used on attacks with no negative modifiers.

Of course, you can be dex based and two weapon fight, but without a source of dex to damage you won't deal as much damage per hit. With a very high strength and things like power attack/channel smite, each attack will do considerable damage. Using your spells and divine weapon, you can really make a few attacks do significant damage.

Dex or strength based both have advantages and disadvantages, just the way it is. Neither is really wrong, just depends on what your ability scores are and how you want to build your character. Either warpriest will still be tier 3 at the end of the day.

For some quick math, lets assume a 16 strength strength based build, and a 16 dex build, level 1 human warpriest using a sacred weapon dealing 1d6. Dex build has weapon finesse and two weapon fighting. Assume no buff spells, blessings, or any other bonuses as these would impact them the same. If both just make a single attack, both have a +4 to hit(stat+weapon focus). The strength build does 6.5 damage per hit, the dex build does 3.5 damage per hit. If the two weapon fighter uses both, they only have a +2 to hit(light weapon in each hand, TWF) and deal 3.5 damage per hit, 7 assuming they both hit. This is only slightly more than the strength warpriest with less chance to hit. After first level they can take power attack or the dex version piranha strike, both increasing the damage but the dex warpriest continues to have less chance to hit.

It generally balances out. Now a class throwing sneak attack or similar damage on each attack would clearly win. And the dex warpriest will have higher touch AC, the strength warpriest higher flat footed from armor. Dex helps with initiative and reflex saves, as well as key skills. Strength helps with CMB, something your warpriest might use. Both have merits, it depends on preference.