Troll as a PC/cohort in Pathfinder :)

[ngilop]

Hey guys I am thinking of grabbing leadership for my character at 9th level and was thinking of making my cohort a troll.

But I need some clearifications.
1st: a monster as a PC uses its CR as its effective level, correct? So a troll would count as a 5th level character

2nd: We need a damage sponge on our group, hence why I was thinking troll and regeneration. would be easy enough to cast resist energy: fire on him or even protection from energy: fire. Is a troll a decent enough damage sponge. out of combat healing is practically unlimited and in combat healing is up to par.

3rd: What class should I grab for the troll. I want a full Base Attack class, so its probably between Fighter or Barbarian, but I think there are some 'hybrid' classes that might work as well, though Im not too familiar with them.

[Florian]

Not how it works. Monster Cohorts don´t count as equivalent PC class levels for leadership.
Look up the Monster Cohort list, find equivalent monsters and ten you know how they count. The Troll being CR-equivalent to the Manticore, it would count as a 9th level cohort.

[ngilop]

Not how it works. Monster Cohorts don´t count as equivalent PC class levels for leadership.
Look up the Monster Cohort list, find equivalent monsters and ten you know how they count. The Troll being CR-equivalent to the Manticore, it would count as a 9th level cohort.

Ok so according to your interpretation of the rules if I take a base troll its a 9th level cohort, but if I take a troll with 1 class level, it is now a npc with class levels and so therefore becomes a 6th level cohort. Nice.

makes no sense so I think your version is wrong, i'll just take it to paizo :)

[Jack_Simth]

Ok so according to your interpretation of the rules if I take a base troll its a 9th level cohort, but if I take a troll with 1 class level, it is now a npc with class levels and so therefore becomes a 6th level cohort. Nice.

makes no sense so I think your version is wrong, i'll just take it to paizo :)
It's really the monsters as PC's section that's busted. The reason 3.5 had ECL not match CR is legitimate: There are a lot of abilities that are significantly more useful long-term and/or out of combat and/or when used with PC wealth (PC ECL) than they are short-term in battle (Monster CR). 3.5 got few, if any, of them right, but the reason for the distinction was quite sound.

[ngilop]

I think I came across a little too mean to florian, I apologize for that.


and I know the reason behind the level adjustment for 3.5, but as the core issue with all of that, they over valued high str and other meaningless (in the grand scope) attributes and under-weighed anything with spells, or any sort of magic.

[Florian]

Ok so according to your interpretation of the rules if I take a base troll its a 9th level cohort, but if I take a troll with 1 class level, it is now a npc with class levels and so therefore becomes a 6th level cohort. Nice.

makes no sense so I think your version is wrong, i'll just take it to paizo :)

Take it to Paizo and look it up yourself: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterCohorts.html

You´ll also find that monster cohorts should only advance in "key" classes for them (+1 CR/class level), preventing the "over-leveling syndrome".

[GeekGirl]

I'm not sure how much changed, but in Monster Manual I there are rules for Troll as a character.

[ngilop]

OK.. what would be a good.. say 10 level build for a Troll who is meant to be a damage sponge.

Im thinking some type of barbarian but am open to suggestions.. im lookinging for something that has decent AC both normal. touch, and flat-footed and has decent saves.

[GeekGirl]

OK.. what would be a good.. say 10 level build for a Troll who is meant to be a damage sponge.

Im thinking some type of barbarian but am open to suggestions.. im lookinging for something that has decent AC both normal. touch, and flat-footed and has decent saves.

That troll, if I remember how monstrous stuff works, would start at level 11. 6 Racial hit die of giant, then +5 level adjustment puts you at 11 to start. A little while ago I made Thrallhard (same idea as leadership) and we also needed a damage sponge. I use a Half-ogre with Feral template. You don't need the template but it gives him pretty good natural attacks. Its only +3 level adjustment. As for the build, I lost the exact build... But basically was Dungeon crasher fighter/war hulk. He hit hard and could take a hit real well with some simple buffs.

[ngilop]

That troll, if I remember how monstrous stuff works, would start at level 11. 6 Racial hit die of giant, then +5 level adjustment puts you at 11 to start. A little while ago I made Thrallhard (same idea as leadership) and we also needed a damage sponge. I use a Half-ogre with Feral template. You don't need the template but it gives him pretty good natural attacks. Its only +3 level adjustment. As for the build, I lost the exact build... But basically was Dungeon crasher fighter/war hulk. He hit hard and could take a hit real well with some simple buffs.

Pathfinder does things differently. monsters as PCs are effective level= to the CR of the monster so the base troll is equivalent to a level 5 whatever.

I am looking at the troll because except for very specific attacks (fire&acid) its never going to die, well at least due to damage. plus ICly a troll would make sense for me to have acquired.

[Jack_Simth]

Pathfinder does things differently. monsters as PCs are effective level= to the CR of the monster so the base troll is equivalent to a level 5 whatever.

I am looking at the troll because except for very specific attacks (fire&acid) its never going to die, well at least due to damage. plus ICly a troll would make sense for me to have acquired.

Well, the person you really need to be asking is your DM, as random people on the Internet are unlikely to know the specific situation (optimization level of the target cohort build, optimization level of the party) at your gaming table, and Pathfinder gets interesting with the rules sometimes. What really needs to happen is that your DM needs to make a call about it and move on.

[ngilop]

Well, the person you really need to be asking is your DM, as random people on the Internet are unlikely to know the specific situation (optimization level of the target cohort build, optimization level of the party) at your gaming table, and Pathfinder gets interesting with the rules sometimes. What really needs to happen is that your DM needs to make a call about it and move on.

But yet, you see dozens of ' build for X class help' pop up on these forums every week

In fact let me see if you have posted any suggestions to help somebody

oh yes here are a few About helping build a rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482669-Building-a-RAW-legal-rouge&p=20585588#post20585588) an arcanist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482185-Suggestions-for-a-Arcanist&p=20565620#post20565620) and that's just from the first search page


but for some odd reason.. I am too worthless for you to even offer any advice at all on what feats, rage powers, or even items to get/pick up for a 10th level barbarian.

I really appreciate the kindness you have shown me.

[Jack_Simth]

but for some odd reason.. I am too worthless for you to even offer any advice at all on what feats, rage powers, or even items to get/pick up for a 10th level barbarian.

I really appreciate the kindness you have shown me.

Not what I mean.

Most of those others are asking for things that are fairly straightforward - strict raw, or things that don't really require fuzzy rules interpretations.

Specific Pathfinder Cohort? Well, on one hand, you've got one section that says a Monstrous Cohort (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCohorts.html) of CR 5 would be an effective level of 9 based on the examples. On another hand, you've got Monsters as PC's (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html) which say CR 5 = Class level 5 (less than that, actually, as it scales down in value with level).

Whenever the rules are both debatable and relevant, it's the DM's job to clarify for the specific table in question. Asking here, you will get opinions on the matter. You will get what some DMs expect that they will do at their own tables. You will get what some players would want their DMs to do. None of that is actually relevant to you, however, as this is for an actual game, so it's your specific DM that matters. For practical purposes, we cannot answer question #1 for you.

Question #2, on the other hand... is going to be highly dependant on the answer to question #1. How effective Mr. Troll is as a damage sponge depends greatly on how much build resources are available to him. A few class levels can very easily be the difference between soaking a few hits before going down vs. soaking a few full attacks before going down. At "equivalent level 9 cohort = stock troll", you'll be level 11-ish, and it barely matters that your cohort is recyclable: It will have very little impact on your battles, and is a poor damage sponge. At "equivalent level 9 cohort = troll + 5 class levels", on the other hand, Mr. Troll will be very good at his damage-sponge job at level 11-ish for you.

When we finally get to your last question (#3), here you can actually get some useful advice... maybe. First, your DM's "style" is going to factor heavily. If your DM uses a lot of PC classes on medium-sized critters, then a tripper build with a reach trip weapon goes pretty well on your troll: They have to get past him to get to you, and if they simply try to blow past... he uses his AoO to put them on the ground: he keeps people from getting to you. If, on the other hand, your DM uses a lot of Brute monsters, then a tripper build is close to useless (he'll almost never make the check), but something that can convince people to attack might be useful. Second, we get back to build resources - how many class levels get tossed on your cohort. At "equivalent level 9 cohort = stock troll", your cohort will be short several points of BAB, a couple of feats, and a lot of class features relative to "Troll + 5 class levels when you qualify for a 9th level cohort" ... which means significantly reduced effectiveness at other tasks in addition to significantly reduced effectiveness as a sponge.

You've got a significantly different situation from the linked threads. Those specific linked posts amount to "please clarify". In your case, you don't need to clarify too terribly much; your DM does, as your DM is the referee for what to do in the 'fuzzy' sections of the rules, which is where you've wandered. You seem to be reading that as hostile? Eh, whatever. It's not intended that way, but I sometimes suck at communicating my intent.

[Florian]

But yet, you see dozens of ' build for X class help' pop up on these forums every week

I really appreciate the kindness you have shown me.

You´ve been given the link to Monster Cohorts twice by now. That´s the official version for using a stock troll without any attribute changes due to array, no WBL and not prepared to have class levels.

If you think those rules should not apply and rather use the rules to create an PC, then you should talk about exactly that with your GM and clear it up. From then on out, we could talk about builds.