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Gerrtt
2007-06-20, 05:02 PM
I'm not really sure why, but I've been throwing around the idea of a dex focused monk that specializes in arhcery. I was thinking for a while about using arcane archer in there somehow but I'm not really seeing a huge payoff for what it would cost to get in there. The idea was using the wizard/sorc levels to get access to the fire arrow spell (possibly researching other elemental variants of it) to add free damage to my arrows that are enchanted by nature of being an arcane archer...but I'm just not sure it's worth it.

Just the same, I'm attracted to the idea of a monk that focuses on archery. Aside from the regular archery feats I'm not really sure what I should be looking at with such a character. Any thoughts?

Here's what I've got so far concept wise:

Elven Monk, some type of Elven monastic society that is famous for producing skilled archers possibly, blending their natural affinity for the art with the defensive skills of the monk.

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot somewhere in there, I would assume. Are there any others I am missing out on as key archery feats?

Thoughts? Criticisms? Be brutal, by all means.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-20, 05:03 PM
Focus on Wisdom over Dexterity and take Zen Archery.

Damionte
2007-06-20, 05:29 PM
Focus on Wisdom over Dexterity and take Zen Archery.

that's really all there is to it.

The monk doesn't make a great archer because they get too many abilities that really have nothing to do with archery. There's no real synergy between archery and the base monk class. See if you can find an archer monk varient somewhere.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-20, 05:33 PM
that's really all there is to it.

The monk doesn't make a great archer because they get too many abilities that really have nothing to do with archery. There's no real synergy between archery and the base monk class. See if you can find an archer monk varient somewhere.

Actually, you can flurry shuriken, and all those wonderful archery feats work with thrown weapons. There's some nifty right there.

Koji
2007-06-20, 05:40 PM
Enlightened Fist gives you spellcasting levels, and being an elf with zen archery is a great way to take care of bow usage. This character actually overcomes several of the pitfalls that monks and arcane archers have. Namely survivability, damage output, and range.

On top of that, should anyone be foolish enough to close in on you, you're still a monk, and can still punch them with shocking grasp.

Gerrtt
2007-06-20, 05:49 PM
What book is enlightened fist in?

@ Fax: the zen archery thought intrigued me, but I was considering going dex and taking weapon finesse for the unarmed strikes. That way I need 1 less decent ability score to still be able to hit in melee. Your thoughts?

Fax Celestis
2007-06-20, 05:51 PM
Nah. Don't go that way: you're spreading yourself too thin. Focus! Specify! If you're going to be a rangemonkey monk, dedicate yourself.

Gerrtt
2007-06-20, 06:16 PM
OK, lets stop and think here...

If I'm specializing in archery there's not any point to making sure I can hit in melee because I'm not planning on doing it unless I get backed into a corner or something. So therefore using weapon finesse is silly and a waste of a feat. But what about stunning fist? It can be useful in some situations and I'd like to make sure I can still hit with it when I need to, especially if I am keeping my wisdom high because it affects the DC for that ability.

I'm thinking something along the lines of some bad guy gets too close for comfort, thinking I can't do anything safely with a bow in my hands, and I hit him with a stun, giving me time to get away to safety. Should I just rely on the BAB (which isn't spectacular as a monk) or is considering this as a potential way to keep myself out of trouble still spreading myself too thin?

Orzel
2007-06-20, 06:19 PM
3/4 BAB and no bonus damage to bows is gonna hurt like a...

I'd scream "don't do it" but I'm tired. I'm sure someone already said why ranged monks are rarely made.

Grabbing Quick Draw and Hurling Charge is okay if you wan't to chuck +1 shuriken.

But issuses # 1 & 2 will be damage and accuracy.
Before you grab every bow feat you can get, you should get a way to boost your accuracy or damage.
I can't think of any that isn't a money sink.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-20, 06:32 PM
3/4 BAB and no bonus damage to bows is gonna hurt like a...

I'd scream "don't do it" but I'm tired. I'm sure someone already said why ranged monks are rarely made.

Grabbing Quick Draw and Hurling Charge is okay if you wan't to chuck +1 shuriken.

But issuses # 1 & 2 will be damage and accuracy.
Before you grab every bow feat you can get, you should get a way to boost your accuracy or damage.
I can't think of any that isn't a money sink.

I already said one. Zen Archery. Shuriken, enchantable as ammunition, also provide versatility.

Orzel
2007-06-20, 06:59 PM
Zen archery is nice.

The funny thing about Zen archer monks... Zen Archery lets to keep your Dex low... but with your Dex low you can't get many archery feats.

If your Dex is high, Zen Archery is a waste of a feat because it'll grant a +1 higher bonus to attack most likely when Wis and Dex are compared.

You'll get a skilled, evasive, archer monk or a basic, strong willed archer monk with a mean punch.

It's not like rangers who gets free feats or casters who have spells...

*doesn't finish post in fear of a certain topic showing up*

Quietus
2007-06-20, 07:12 PM
You could always ask your DM if you could pick up some Ki Focus shuriken. Ki Focus is normally melee-only, but if you can pass it by him, you'd be able to use your Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm attacks with shuriken.

Also, if you end up short on feats and happen to fall into the Exalted realm, you might be able to pick up Intuitive Strike. It's like Weapon Finesse, but for wisdom.

Gerrtt
2007-06-20, 07:14 PM
Which is another concern of mine about the dexterity. I can see the benefit of having a high wisdom as a monk, but because archery feats have dexterity requirements I would just as soon focus on the dexterity and get a wisdom increasing item to make up the difference in that department, assuming I didn't decide to get dexterity gear instead. Plus, if I did that and picked up weapon finesse instead of zen archery I would be able to increase ranged attack accuracy and the accuracy of any stunning strikes I might attempt.

Koji
2007-06-20, 07:35 PM
Ah, but what about a halfling monk with a sling? Remember that they get a +1 to such weapons.

War sling might be a good choice, it's from races of the wild I think. Grab some skiprocks and get an elemental damage enchant and you're set. Rapid Shot and similar feats still apply.

Gerrtt
2007-06-20, 07:43 PM
That still doesn't solve the problem about whether or not it's better to focus on dexterity or wisdom.

In fact it worsens the problem of prospective damage output and provides only a +2 to hit (small size + halfling).

Dr. Weasel
2007-06-20, 10:03 PM
Zen Archery is not too beneficial to monks. Don't get Weapon Finesse either. You have more important feats to focus on.

The thing about the whole archer-monk concept is that no matter what you do, you're going to be the worst character around. You won't have any damage output and you won't have any synergy between your feats and class.

To make yourself competent, though, halfling racial substitution levels in Races of the Wild let you pick up skirmish instead of flurry which could get you a bit of damage output while boosting Armor and to-hit a bit.
I'm not sure if the skirmish applies to non-monk weapons so it might not actually help much. Probably the only way to get all the feats you need (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Greater Manyshot in that order) is to politely ask your DM to let you replace your normal bonus feats with some of these.
Maybe take two Ranger levels for proficiency with bows and a much needed feat and ask your DM if a variant of the Swift Hunter feat would stack Monk and Ranger levels for Skirmish and favored enemies.

If you don't think your DM will let you do any of this you should probably just fake your monk-ness and go with a different class.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-21, 06:11 AM
Hi all,

Gerrtt, your idea is a good one!

imo there are several things in favour of doing a monk archer character despite the obvious disadvantages already listed:
- the move is great. Combine with manyshot, shot on the run and a movement enhancer like boots of speed and you have an archer who is quite deadly vs slow opponents. Vs 30ft move meleers (worse if they wear medium/heavy armour) this means you attack them without them being able to hit back, if the terrain is to your advantage).
- since a monk focuses on unarmed combat, he threatens squares around him (with grapples, disarms or trips if necessary), without his opponents actually being aware (since he appears to be a mere archer).
- since a monk is immune to poison from a certain level, he can then easily apply poison to his arrows
- a monk has hide and move silently, as well as spot and listen as class skills. Not many classes have that.
- the natural enemies of archer monks are opponent also with ranged tactics. However, vs enemy archers, the monk gets deflect arrows for free at an early level. And vs enemy spellcasters, the monk has the best defense of all (high saves, later spell resistance)

Basically a monk should max both DEX and WIS. For a monk archer with zen archery, the focus could maybe then be on STR and WIS (for more arrow damage), but I'd prefer saving that feat and max DEX and WIS.

- Giacomo

Ikkitosen
2007-06-21, 06:38 AM
Allowing Wis to be used for archery feat qualification for characters with Zen Archery is not an uncommon houserule. Ask your DM perhaps?

Rad
2007-06-21, 06:56 AM
Allowing Wis to be used for archery feat qualification for characters with Zen Archery is not an uncommon houserule. Ask your DM perhaps?

Sure but... why? I can see no good reason for wanting to use wis since stunning fist is not going to be used much

Gerrtt
2007-06-21, 08:19 AM
After doing some thinking and reading last night I sortof jumped back on the Arcane Archer bandwagon, dispite knowing that it's one of the weaker archery PrCs. Not sure how well the build would pan out in play, but here we go:

Wizard 3/Monk 2/Enlightened Fist 5/Arcane Archer 10

Using a fractional BaB it gets up to BaB 16, casts as a level 7 wizard (mostly for use of some buffs and stuff, no damaging spells except for Flame Arrow and researched "X Arrow" spells), has 10 stunning attemps (and another way to use them, since my DC wont be great anyways), Base speed of 50 ft, Evasion, free +5 arrows (as well as the rest of the arcane archer stuff) and more.

Also, I decided to focus on Dexterity but still have a decent wisdom score. Once I saw how my unarmed attack bonus looked towards the end of the leveling...unarmed striking isn't really going to be all that handy, even with stuns. So no weapon finnesse or zen archery here. The only feat it really wastes is combat casting, but that's to get into Enlightened Fist.

Now, I recognize that it's certainly not a powerhouse but I'm not necessarily looking for that either. I'm looking at the concept here and trying to build around it.

Aaaaaaaand.....GO.

argentsaber
2007-06-22, 08:45 PM
well, i made a (half-elf, haha) monk who used zen archery. I multiclassed into soul-knife and then soul-bow. While these are technically psychic classes, ki, chi (or whatever you want to call it) is really just a flavor of psychic power if you look at it objectively. anyhow, this combination really only provides a minimum of monk powers (though i fully intended to pop into Shou Disciple eventually to beef it up slightly) but as an archer it was pretty sweet. the main issue that most seem to have with archers (damage) is solved by a soul-bow's ability to add wis to damage. in fact, this character's stats were generated on 25 pt buy. she had far less MAD than the only other monk i played, and was a whole lot of fun too. Don't get me wrong.. i am 100% certain that the best monk archer would be a sacred fist ur-priest. spells just have that much superiority in this game. still, it was cool.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-23, 07:10 AM
Wizard 3/Monk 2/Enlightened Fist 5/Arcane Archer 10
AA is a 2 level prestige class.

Anyway, just dip monk and then make an actual archer build ... that is all there is to it (the above mentioned soulbow is a good idea). There is no synergy with anything the monk provides (or the enlightened fist for that matter) and archery.

lord_khaine
2007-06-23, 07:35 AM
i would rather take a 4 lvs dip into fighter, to get weapon specalisation, and all the relevant archery feat.
by doing that, you will then also get the feats to buff your unarmed attacks, making you effective in both melee and ranget combat.

still, to help with the build it would be nice to know what lv you are aiming at.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-23, 08:04 AM
This might be totally not what you want, but since you don't seem to want any of the actual game mechanical benefits of being a monk, couldn't you pick a different class and just be a "monk" in-character? What about the Monk class do you actually like, if it's flavour, that's fairly portable: there's no reason you can't play a Lawful, lightly armoured Fighter or Ranger who belongs to a monastic order.

stainboy
2007-06-24, 10:03 AM
This is the sort of the thing that begs for a custom prestige class to make it viable. Something like this:

Aescetic Archer

Requirements: Ki Strike (magic), Spot 8 ranks, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (shortbow or longbow), Lawful alignment

Level BAB Special
1 +0 Monk Abilities, Flurry of Arrows, Suck Less at Archery
2 +1 Precise Shot
3 +2
4 +3
5 +3 Shot in the Dark
6 +4 Greater Flurry of Arrows
7 +5
8 +6
9 +6 Guided Arrow
10 +7 Ultimate Hidden Technique


Monk Abilities: Aescetic Archer levels stack with monk levels for determining movement speed, AC bonuses, all flurry of blows related stuff, improved evasion, diamond soul, timeless body, blah blah blah. Basically you get all monk abilities not related to punching stuff as if your aescetic archer levels were monk levels.

Flurry of Arrows: you can flurry with a bow.

Suck Less At Archery: You get some kind of ranged attack bonus to make up for your terrible BAB. The bonus should either be half or one-third of your aescetic archer level or tied to wisdom somehow.

Precise Shot: You get the precise shot feat, because if you've gone 7 levels without it your tank probably wants to kill you by this point. If you already have it, pick a different ranged feat.

Shot in the Dark: Your bow attacks ignore concealment. If you're firing at a target you can't see because it's invisible or something, you still have to correctly guess its location, but you don't suffer the normal miss chance.

Greater Flurry of Arrows: you can now greater-flurry with a bow. (You don't gain the ability to greater flurry with any other weapon, however.)

Guided Arrow: A number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), you can fire an arrow that flies around obstructions to your target, ignoring line of sight. You can only do this against targets that are within one range increment of you. This ability cannot be combined with Ultimate Hidden Technique (see below).

Ultimate Hidden Technique: You can fire an arrow with charged with ki or some such silliness once per day. The target of the arrow is automatically flatfooted and suffers 10d6 additional damage. A successful Fort save halves the extra damage, but the target is flatfooted regardless.


I didn't put a tremendous amount of thought into this or anything. I'm just throwing out an example of how to make an archer monk viable. This prestige class could probably use a few more abilities to give an archer monk more versatility and make up for the loss of Improved Grapple/Stunning Fist, but I'm not sure what. D&D archery is kinda lacking in interesting combat maneuvers.