Flippin' Pacific Rim

[Cikomyr]

Re watching it at the moment, thanks to my gf who wanted to gimme a favor.

Goddamnit, this is a great movie. I just cant believe the amount of fantastic "moments"

- the Music/intro of Gypsie Danger

"One: never touch me again.
Two: never touch me again."

"If i succeed, i was right, so HA! If i fail, i will die and i want you to know it was all your fault, so i win!"

"We can either stay in here, or take these flare guns and do something really stupid"

"Took the name from my favourite Historical character and my second favourite Szechuanese restaurant in Brooklyn"

"Today, WE ARE CANCELLING THE APOCALYSPE"

[The Glyphstone]

"2500 Tons of awesome....or awful, I guess."

[Prime32]

Honest Trailers sums it up pretty well:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fupWquPNoTc
"Either the most awesome dumb movie ever made, or the dumbest awesome movie ever made"

[Leewei]

Definitely a movie best enjoyed with your brain switched off - but oh, what a fun movie it is!

-A boat being used as a club.
-The sword button.
-Scientists which had me laughing so hard I was gasping for breath.
-Kaiju designed by artists asked to "imagine how a man might fit into a suit" - and then voted on for appearances in the movie.
-Chernobyl One and crew. I grinned every time I saw them.

... and loads of other perfect moments made with a clear love of giant monster movies.

[The Glyphstone]

And let's not forget Analog vs. Digital.

Or rather, let's do our very best to forget it.

[Eldan]

But who wouldn't want an analogue neural interface.

[Kato]

Yeah, Honest Trailer (as so often) really hit the nail on the head: A massive guilty pleasure movie. It's really stupid and I'm gonna guess it wasn't meant to be... but damn, is it entertaining if you can switch your brain off.

(I still wish anyone would have spent the slightest amount of thought when they came up with their stupid "monster timing" formula :smalltongue:)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Pssh, 'guilty pleasure' implies that I'm ashamed to tell people that I love Pacific Rim. :smalltongue:

Pacific Rim is one of my favorite movies of recent memory both because of my love of kaiju movies (Pacific Rim and Godzilla coming out were some of my happiest moments in a long time) and because it is one of the first movies where I began paying closer attention to visual storytelling, thanks to an online review of the movie that I read.

I'm just glad that Pacific Rim 2 has finally been greenlighted!

[The Glyphstone]

Pssh, 'guilty pleasure' implies that I'm ashamed to tell people that I love Pacific Rim. :smalltongue:

Pacific Rim is one of my favorite movies of recent memory both because of my love of kaiju movies (Pacific Rim and Godzilla coming out were some of my happiest moments in a long time) and because it is one of the first movies where I began paying closer attention to visual storytelling, thanks to an online review of the movie that I read.

I'm just glad that Pacific Rim 2 has finally been greenlighted!

Got a sauce?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well I had one when I first heard the news which was about...two months back but sadly that was in a chat and I do not know how to find it anymore. However! A cursory search on Google has told me that Pacific Rim 2, or as its likely to be known Pacific Rim: Maelstrom, was confirmed as being up to be produced in 2014 with production beginning in 2015. For unknown reasons it was pushed back to 2016 for production to start with the tentative release date of August 4-7th in 2017.

Cinemablend has done several articles on it which I fully plan on reading now!

[Lethologica]

And, just in case the visual storytelling bit is interesting to anyone, here it is. (http://stormingtheivorytower.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-visual-intelligence-of-pacific-rim.html) (I think it's overselling the case, but I think that about a lot of things.)

[ben-zayb]

And, just in case the visual storytelling bit is interesting to anyone, here it is. (http://stormingtheivorytower.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-visual-intelligence-of-pacific-rim.html) (I think it's overselling the case, but I think that about a lot of things.)
TIL! :smalleek:

[Callos_DeTerran]

And, just in case the visual storytelling bit is interesting to anyone, here it is. (http://stormingtheivorytower.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-visual-intelligence-of-pacific-rim.html) (I think it's overselling the case, but I think that about a lot of things.)

The movie is very clever at visual story-telling though and it uses it add to the story without going over its two-hour run-time. The article is definitely worth a read, if nothing else it made me pay more attention to the stuff movies were showing rather than just saying.

[tensai_oni]

I second the recommendation for Lethologica's link. Especially for anyone who thinks Pacific Rim is a big dumb movie best enjoyed with your brain turned off. It's a big, surprisingly not so dumb movie.

It'd be nice if Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon actually got to do anything of note other than job. Waste of cool designs I tell you.

I am very sceptical about the sequel. What made PacRim work was its honesty. Del Toro is a fan of both kaiju movies and giant robot anime. He could create a genuine sense of tension and drama where a lesser director couldn't help but wink to the camera - going "yeah, it's silly, giant robots and monsters are unrealistic, we know it's not real". And that'd totally kill the movie.

The new movie doesn't have him around anymore and because modern day blockbusters tend towards self awareness rather than honesty, I'm afraid the new PacRim's odds are against it.

[Lurkmoar]

Hey, I love me some giant robots fighting giant monsters.

Also, really dug the movie. My only hang up about it is how the Russian and Chinese robots went down without really strutting their stuff.

[Lethologica]

The reason I think it's overselling the case is that Pacific Rim isn't a smart movie just because it makes good visual storytelling decisions. Rather, it's smartly designed in the pursuit of being an awesome dumb movie. Which is cool! There's miles of difference between Pacific Rim and Transformers, and not much difference between it and Avengers (whose intelligence is at times overrated due to clever dialogue, which furthers the article's point). It's just that there's also quite a gap between those movies and, say, Mad Max: Fury Road, which is truly an intelligent movie that doesn't rely on intelligent dialogue. (One could add another gap between MMFR and movies like Her or Birdman, but that's another story.)

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, the Worfing of Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon was a total waste.

My biggest regret/thought of missed opportunity, though, was in the confrontation between Whitebread McProtagonist and Stacker Pentecost at the end, when they're arguing about Mako as his copilot. Way back at the beginning of the movie, when Stacker recruits Whitebread to rejoin the Jaeger teams, he says "the world is coming to an end - where do you want to die, here or in a Jaeger?". Instead of something about 'stop trying to protect her', Whitebread should have thrown Stacker's line back at him - "the world is coming to an end - where do you want her to die, here or in a Jaeger?". It would have made an amazing bookend/callback, and i really wish they had done so.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, Honest Trailer (as so often) really hit the nail on the head: A massive guilty pleasure movie. It's really stupid and I'm gonna guess it wasn't meant to be... but damn, is it entertaining if you can switch your brain off.

(I still wish anyone would have spent the slightest amount of thought when they came up with their stupid "monster timing" formula :smalltongue:)

What gave you that impression? I mean, I love the movie to bits, but at no part of it did I think the movie was taking itself overly seriously. Serious enough to not be a comedy or a joke, but it never pretended to be anything but giant robots punching giant monsters in really cool visual ways.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, "Stupid" isn't what it was trying to be, but neither was it trying to be some sort of high-brow intellectualism; it was a full-stock homage, and self-aware of its nature as a homage. The old giant monster movies of the 50's and 60's were fun in large part because they took themselves seriously; Pacific Rim aimed to recapture that sense of fun by imitating that veneer of seriousness. The motif of all the fights taking place in the rain, for instance, was a direct homage to the old rubber-suit monster fights taking place in the rain to hide the low quality of the suits/sets. Even the design of the monsters, as was already said, was intended to resemble something that could be made into a rubber suit for an actor to wear. Being too blatant would have turned it into a parody, and being too serious would have missed the whole point of writing a love letter to a mostly-forgotten era of cinema.

[Talakeal]

I love Kaiju movies but hated pacific rim.

I have had peope tell me both that I didn't like it because I am supposed to tirn my brain off first and have had people tell me that I didnt like it because it was too deep for me to understand.

I personally think maybe my theater just had the brightness too low, because between every fight being at night and the chest deep (or deeper) water I couldnt tell what was happening the action scenes.

[Callos_DeTerran]

it's not real[/I]". And that'd totally kill the movie.

The new movie doesn't have him around anymore and because modern day blockbusters tend towards self awareness rather than honesty, I'm afraid the new PacRim's odds are against it.

This is the first I've heard that Maelstrom won't have del Toro at the helm, do you have a source for that? Cause last I heard is one of the supposed reasons Maelstrom was delayed was because del Toro was wrapped up in other commitments like Crimson Peak.

[tensai_oni]

The new movie will be directed by Steven DeKnight and written by Jon Spaihts. Source (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/spartacus-creator-steven-s-deknight-868955).

[Kato]

What gave you that impression? I mean, I love the movie to bits, but at no part of it did I think the movie was taking itself overly seriously. Serious enough to not be a comedy or a joke, but it never pretended to be anything but giant robots punching giant monsters in really cool visual ways.

Eh, hard to say. Obviously it was not super serious but then you have things like the stupid "wall vs jaeger" stuff, or the "our pollution changed the planet to suit them" or really most of the stuff that wasn't giant robots punching giant monsters. They could have cut a lot of unneccessary side things and given us more of that if they were just in it for that :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

Eh, hard to say. Obviously it was not super serious but then you have things like the stupid "wall vs jaeger" stuff, or the "our pollution changed the planet to suit them" or really most of the stuff that wasn't giant robots punching giant monsters. They could have cut a lot of unneccessary side things and given us more of that if they were just in it for that :smalltongue:

The wall vs jaeger is incredibly ridiculous, and I love it for how mindbogglingly insane of a plan it is. I mean come on, they are trying to wall off the entire ocean. How can you not love such a bad plan?

I liked the other stuff, even some parts of the crappier psuedo-science. It gives more set up for the giant monsters vs giant robots fights, and that's nice.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, the design for the Wall was apparently supposed to include gigantic turrets to shoot the monsters. But they ran into budget cuts, or something, which turned it from 'mind-boggling stupid' into 'suicidally stupid'.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Probably the single most mind-blowingly stupid thing about the wall is how it completely ceded initiative to the other side. They can pick their point on the wall and hammer it until it cracks, and they can wait until their numbers are high enough to Zerg swarm it so the defenses are worthless. Or they can just send some flying units to bypass it.

[The Glyphstone]

Admittedly, both of those strategies assume an opponent with strategies beyond what the Makers appear to be capable of.

-If they could Zerg Rush through the portal, presumably they would have done it already. Sending individual monsters through to be defeated in detail is horribly inefficient, and the fact that every monster immediately beelines for inhabited areas suggests they're not exactly smart, just cunning. They might even be completely instinct-driven; once the Makers shove them through, it's at best a one-way feedback link of observing their progress and upgrading the next generation accordingly.

-Sending flying kaiju in general would have completely invalidated any possible defense humanity could muster, Jaeger or wall, and it was only the second-to-last generation of monsters where one of them had flight. For that matter, it appeared to be the first generation that used specialized anti-Jaeger evolutions at all, and the generation after that had nothing other than brute muscle. The Makers definitely iterate and improve their designs, but they apparently have a very long development cycle for anything other than 'bigger and meaner'.

Note that this doesn't mean the Wall of Life isn't still a gawdawful idea. But in the context of what we see on screen....it's still a gawdawful idea.

[HandofShadows]

Even without the context on the screen it was still a gawdawful idea. Fixed defenses will ALWAYS fall to determined foe given enough time (and often times in not that much time at all). Now a wall around the cities would have been a good idea as it would slow down attacking monsters and give the Jaegers more time to get into position. It could even provide support to them. But by itself the Wall as useless.

Oddly enough I can see leaders going for the Wall. Why? Because they wanted a final solution to protect the cities. Once the Wall was built they would only have to worry about keeping it repaired adn that the wall would keep them safe. People convince themselves of this stuff all the time. The Maginot Line is a perfect example of this thinking. Originally it was NOT intended to stop a German attack. It was only supposed to slow the Germans down while the French got their mobile forces together for a counter attack. But as time went one the leaders convinced themselves that the Line could protect them by itself, which it was never really intended to do and could not do.

Frankly I just don't understand why they didn't have some big bombers drop a LOT laser guided tungsten telephone poles from high altitude. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Even without the context on the screen it was still a gawdawful idea. Fixed defenses will ALWAYS fall to determined foe given enough time (and often times in not that much time at all). Now a wall around the cities would have been a good idea as it would slow down attacking monsters and give the Jaegers more time to get into position. It could even provide support to them. But by itself the Wall as useless.

Oddly enough I can see leaders going for the Wall. Why? Because they wanted a final solution to protect the cities. Once the Wall was built they would only have to worry about keeping it repaired adn that the wall would keep them safe. People convince themselves of this stuff all the time. The Maginot Line is a perfect example of this thinking. Originally it was NOT intended to stop a German attack. It was only supposed to slow the Germans down while the French got their mobile forces together for a counter attack. But as time went one the leaders convinced themselves that the Line could protect them by itself, which it was never really intended to do and could not do.

Frankly I just don't understand why they didn't have some big bombers drop a LOT laser guided tungsten telephone poles from high altitude. :smallbiggrin:

Because dumb projectiles are really hard to aim at something that can dodge and move real fast? The water-speed of the monsters was shown as extremely fast....you couldn't hit one while it was swimming. no matter how good your initial laser-guided aim was; it simply won't be where it was when you fired, and tungsten telephone poles cannot alter course once they drop.

Their land speed is slower, and you could conceivably nail one that way, or at least land the hit close enough where the blast shock will kill it. And in the process, you have just nuked the city that the monster was attacking, completely ruining the point of defense in the first place.


PR flip-flopped horribly on why you needed giant robots to melee the monsters - at first it was their toxic blood, but then they fought a monster in the middle of the city without any problem at all, so w/e. Giant robots with giant guns would have been far better. But that would have been a Battletech/Robotech homage, not a Godzilla homage.

[Drascin]

PR flip-flopped horribly on why you needed giant robots to melee the monsters - at first it was their toxic blood, but then they fought a monster in the middle of the city without any problem at all, so w/e. Giant robots with giant guns would have been far better. But that would have been a Battletech/Robotech homage, not a Godzilla homage.

By the time they're fighting one in the middle of a city, it's basically a "holy ****" desperation moment, though. If you notice, the first attempt is indeed to stop them before they enter the bay. But whatever the original ideas were, by the time you have kaijus actually acting intelligently and doing combination attacks and heading for one of your main science guys and attempting to disrupt your only chance at a counterattack, poisoning a city that would otherwise get annihilated anyway is a valid desperation move :smalltongue:.

Also, part of the idea of big robots was to give the kaiju something to instinctually challenge them, so that they would focus on the robot and not start wrecking the cities - and the robot had to be able to grapple with the kaiju at close range. Because if you shot at them with planes the things just kept wrecking everything until you finally shot them enough and they keeled over dead. Basically, they needed something that actually drew aggro to tank for the cities.

[tensai_oni]

Giant robots with giant guns would have been far better. But that would have been a Neon Genesis Evangelion homage, not a Godzilla homage.

Fixed that for you.

[Admiral Squish]

Giving them guns would have defeated the purpose of the giant robots, namely, that conventional weapons were largely ineffective and that fighting with robots minimized the blood.

[Grif]

To be fair, the design for the Wall was apparently supposed to include gigantic turrets to shoot the monsters. But they ran into budget cuts, or something, which turned it from 'mind-boggling stupid' into 'suicidally stupid'.

You could actually see the turrets when Kaiju was smashing up downtown Sydney. They weren't firing though, so they probably ran out of budgets for boolets to shoot monsters with. :smalltongue:

[HandofShadows]

Because dumb projectiles are really hard to aim at something that can dodge and move real fast? The water-speed of the monsters was shown as extremely fast....you couldn't hit one while it was swimming. no matter how good your initial laser-guided aim was; it simply won't be where it was when you fired, and tungsten telephone poles cannot alter course once they drop.

Their land speed is slower, and you could conceivably nail one that way, or at least land the hit close enough where the blast shock will kill it. And in the process, you have just nuked the city that the monster was attacking, completely ruining the point of defense in the first place.


You are aware that the JADAM's used by the US military have hit moving targets right? They were testing that tech at least 5 years ago. Might need a little more "umph" than standard fins to steer it, but that is a MUCH smaller challenge than building huge robots. Also they are not being dropped from orbit (As in a full fledged Thor system) as that would be overkill for damage.

[HandofShadows]

Giving them guns would have defeated the purpose of the giant robots, namely, that conventional weapons were largely ineffective and that fighting with robots minimized the blood.

That's why they gave the Jaegers missiles, swords and Plasma Canon that blow the monsters into a thousand pieces or slice off huge chunks of them. Oh wait.

[rooster707]

That's why they gave the Jaegers missiles, swords and Plasma Canon that blow the monsters into a thousand pieces or slice off huge chunks of them. Oh wait.

I want a Plasma Canon...

[Kato]

Yeah, the whole dfense strategy thing... I mean, really, if you know exactly where the kaiju come from and you plan on building a stupid wall, build the stupid wall there. And put a few nukes and turrets there. And be done with it. :smallsigh:
I must stop thinking about this movie or I'll stop liking it :smalltongue:

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, the whole dfense strategy thing... I mean, really, if you know exactly where the kaiju come from and you plan on building a stupid wall, build the stupid wall there. And put a few nukes and turrets there. And be done with it. :smallsigh:

You mean the place the Kaiju come from fourteen kilometres underwater?

That place?

Pretty damn difficult to build a wall there that they couldn't just y'know swim over.

[Rakaydos]

You mean the place the Kaiju come from fourteen kilometres underwater?

That place?

Pretty damn difficult to build a wall there that they couldn't just y'know swim over.

Pour a few miles of concrete over the gate.

[rooster707]

You mean the place the Kaiju come from fourteen kilometres underwater?

That place?

Pretty damn difficult to build a wall there that they couldn't just y'know swim over.

Well... they could build a ceiling.

[Kato]

You mean the place the Kaiju come from fourteen kilometres underwater?

That place?

Pretty damn difficult to build a wall there that they couldn't just y'know swim over.

Fourteen kilometres? There's no place on earth that's fourteen kilometres underwater. And by what we see in the movie it's somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, so a few kilometres at most, considering the Jaegers and people are fine there, probably not even that deep.
Yeah, it might still be a challenge but a) manageable and b) easier and more sensible than building walls across all coasts...

[GolemsVoice]

I actually watched that movie and was... underwhelmed, really. I have to admit thatI have never watched a Godzilla movie, and that, while I know that the idea of "giant monsters vs. giant robots" exists, I have never really delved too deep into it. So maybe there's a lot of things I'm missing. But here goes:

Why not put some more missiles on the robots? Why not give them better weapons? Why not give them anything, so that they don't have to go fisticuffs with some weird monsters? I remember crimson typhoon was equipped with sawblades, but still. I know, it's likely because it's a homage, but meh. Built a giant reactor, place some plasma guns on the shores, never look back.

Why did a movie that is supposed to be a homage to Japanese monster movies not have more than one Asian character? Granted, an important one, but still. They had a base in freaking Hong Kong, but even the guy dealing with kaiju parts couldn't be Asian? Really?

Aside from that, the movie just felt... meh. Not bad, but just not any good. There were some cool scenes, and the fights were ok (although I dislike fights where they just punch somebody and it doesn't seem to have any effect at all), but it didn't fill me with the awe other posters felt.

[cobaltstarfire]

Fourteen kilometres? There's no place on earth that's fourteen kilometres underwater. And by what we see in the movie it's somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, so a few kilometres at most, considering the Jaegers and people are fine there, probably not even that deep.
Yeah, it might still be a challenge but a) manageable and b) easier and more sensible than building walls across all coasts...

Isn't the rift in the er big trench? Not just randomly in the middle of the pacific.

The Mariana Trench! (looked it up) It's 10,994 meters, or 11 KM deep.

[HandofShadows]

Just put an Iris on it like they did in StarGate SG-1. :smallbiggrin: Actually just dump a LOT of concrete blocks on top of it. Anything coming through the gate would be turned into a pancake as it emerged since it could not move.

Of course no one would do that because they wouldn't have GIANT ROBOTS to play with.

[sktarq]

Tungsten telephone poles? Very steerable and a Cessna or coptor with a designator could keep the target on the creature.

Submarines-they would be able to track kaiju with ease. Their heartbeats alone would be like an enemy active sonar. Plus they are not efficient swimmers (see their shape and basic hydrodynamics) so a wake following torpedo would have an easy time. Some modern torpedo models (British spearfish, several Russian types) would easily be fast enough and if tipped with a modern Davy Crocket would be easy kills. And even without would have good penetration.

Develop a turret system that hits at/into the portal-not to destroy the portal but to hit the Kaiju either in the throat or just as it comes out. Difficult engineering? Sure but not as hard as developing Jeagers that can operate at that depth (which we see them do). A pain tto supply-sure but not more than building that full wall and supplying the Shatterdome style bases.

Walls to protect cities (as to divert to easier targets or give time for backup to get there) do make sense-especially if the weapons mounted can be heavier than Jeager mounted ones (railguns for example)

Jeagers to act as mobile walls that keep Kaiju busy while strike support comes in and fists to beet down opponents via internal bruising in high. Value locations make some sense.

So neither plan offered in the movie makes sense to centre a defense plan from (but could be useful)

So yes major parts of the movie are stupid. But they are well told with great indepth visuals. I fell asleep in transformers and my girl did in the modern Godzilla (I stayed awake because of how imbecilic and awful it was) and so I can easily say most of these kinds of movies are boring to me, but I saw Pacific Rim twice (once 2D and once 3D) and loved it.

[tensai_oni]

So much frodoing in this thread.

You're not supposed to immediately go "oh no, robots, how unrealistic". Everyone on board the movie realizes that robots are unrealistic. It's part of the premise. It's like arguing that magic in a fantasy movie is unrealistic.

Suspension of disbelief isn't about realism. It's about consistency. In Pacific Rim's example - there is an initial assumption made, one that says "the best way to beat kaiju is through using a giant robot". Is the movie being consistent with its assumptions, does it not break the laws of the in-character universe it has established? I'd say it is.

Some may accuse the movie of being stupid because it has giant robots. I say it's not stupid because it has giant robots AND it makes you drawn into it, just for a moment it allows you to accept an unrealistic premise as reality.

And let's face it, a movie about automated turret defenses or shooting tungsten poles into giant monsters would be just boring.

[sktarq]

I think you're missing my point at least.

1) Yup major parts of the basic premise of the movie are stupid, make no sense, et al

2) That doesn't stop it from being a good movie.

[Rakaydos]

Specifically concerning "why didnt they use the sword earlier?" complaints, it's because Gypsy didnt have a sword originally. The main character didnt know about that upgrade, so it didnt get used until the female main character (who did the refurbishment on Gypsy herself) activated it.

[GloatingSwine]

Just put an Iris on it like they did in StarGate SG-1. :smallbiggrin: Actually just dump a LOT of concrete blocks on top of it. Anything coming through the gate would be turned into a pancake as it emerged since it could not move.


And then the next one comes through with a giant drill on the end and suddenly your concrete defence is useless. (Remember they managed a biological EMP because they are designed based on previous performance, some kind of digging device is relatively simple)


Tungsten telephone poles? Very steerable and a Cessna or coptor with a designator could keep the target on the creature.

You'd have to wait until they made landfall, an orbital kinetic strike would be almost useless against underwater targets (water is annoyingly good at absorbing kinetic energy like that), and since they tend to do that in major urban environments and a kinetic strike weapon releases energy not unlike a nuclear weapon, you've basically ceded all hope of ever having a coastal presence on earth.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Even without the context on the screen it was still a gawdawful idea. Fixed defenses will ALWAYS fall to determined foe given enough time (and often times in not that much time at all). Now a wall around the cities would have been a good idea as it would slow down attacking monsters and give the Jaegers more time to get into position. It could even provide support to them. But by itself the Wall as useless.

Oddly enough I can see leaders going for the Wall. Why? Because they wanted a final solution to protect the cities. Once the Wall was built they would only have to worry about keeping it repaired adn that the wall would keep them safe. People convince themselves of this stuff all the time. The Maginot Line is a perfect example of this thinking. Originally it was NOT intended to stop a German attack. It was only supposed to slow the Germans down while the French got their mobile forces together for a counter attack. But as time went one the leaders convinced themselves that the Line could protect them by itself, which it was never really intended to do and could not do.

Frankly I just don't understand why they didn't have some big bombers drop a LOT laser guided tungsten telephone poles from high altitude. :smallbiggrin:

The Wall was never supposed to be an effective defense, it was supposed to make people who lived someplace bordering the Pacific feel safe. There were already riots and whatnot as unfortunates begrudged the wealthy able to move inland and away from the coasts and as they tried to move inland themselves.

If it also managed to double as an actual defense? Then super, as far as the world leaders stalling for time to come up with a real solution are concerned.


That's why they gave the Jaegers missiles, swords and Plasma Canon that blow the monsters into a thousand pieces or slice off huge chunks of them. Oh wait.

The Plasma Cannon makes a lot of sense actually....yeah, it blows kaiju chunks everywherr but it also (at least partially) cauterizes the gaping holes it makes to limit the spread of Kaiju Blue.

The missiles and swords are clearly finishing weapons to end a fight or a desperation move when limiting the spread of KB isn't exactly the top priority. Like when two kaiju have appeared or one has already broken into a major city and needs to be stopped before the number of those KIA continues to climb.

...but mostly they are just cool. :)

[Lethologica]

Specifically concerning "why didnt they use the sword earlier?" complaints, it's because Gypsy didnt have a sword originally. The main character didnt know about that upgrade, so it didnt get used until the female main character (who did the refurbishment on Gypsy herself) activated it.
That "explanation" just takes the original question and makes it into two questions:
1) Why didn't anyone brief Raleigh on Gipsy's current specs?
2) Why didn't Mako use the sword earlier?

[Cikomyr]

Specifically concerning "why didnt they use the sword earlier?" complaints, it's because Gypsy didnt have a sword originally. The main character didnt know about that upgrade, so it didnt get used until the female main character (who did the refurbishment on Gypsy herself) activated it.

I really dont see how knowledge about Gypsie Danger known by one pilot woulsnt immesiately be learned by the other tho.

Ya know, mindrift and all?

[Renegade Paladin]

Know what would have solved their giant monster problem?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Motivation/TanksMotivation.jpg

:smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Know what would have solved their giant monster problem?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Motivation/TanksMotivation.jpg

:smalltongue:

Know what would have solved it even better?

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p116/ArcherYiZe/bolos.jpg (http://s126.photobucket.com/user/ArcherYiZe/media/bolos.jpg.html)

:smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

How would that thing turn? The third track in the middle would completely screw up the steering. :smallamused:

But seriously, if you can beat the monsters by punching them with giant robots, heavy-caliber artillery would work even better on account of having more force behind it than a giant robot punch, and would involve much, much less in the way of engineering hurdles.

[The Glyphstone]

Beats me. It's a really terrible Bolo pic, it just happens to be the cover art to one of the early anthologies, so I grabbed it. They're supposed to have two sets of paired or triple tracks, not three evenly spaced ones, and use one pair/triad as if it were a single gigantic 'track'.

[Rogar Demonblud]

How would that thing turn? The third track in the middle would completely screw up the steering. :smallamused:

Same way regular tanks turn. You run the tracks at different speeds. It's just that instead of going 0:1 you have 0:0.5:1.

[Admiral Squish]

That would work, but I think the main concern would be you couldn't turn the thing in place like you can with some tanks by working the treads in opposite directions. Though, I suppose, if you can turn a tank with a 1/0, and the other tread doesn't bind the vehicle in place/pop out of the track, the middle tread wouldn't be that much of a hindrance in a 1/0/-1 turn.

One issue with tanks in this particular scenario. Since the ideal place to hold a kaiju is offshore, a lower profile would mean they would be mostly/completely submerged at that point, at which point you'd probably be better with a submarine. An upright robot would most likely be the ideal, as you'd be able to keep the upper body out of the water and free to act without water resistance, and you only have to overcome the water resistance with relatively small legs while moving.

Also, while using conventional weapons/blades on kaiju doesn't fit with avoiding kaiju blue spills, those are most likely intended as backup/supplemental weapons. Yes, they would spill some blood, but in combination with bludgeoning/shocking/cauterizing weapons, you'd spill less than if you'd used ONLY conventional weapons. You're looking to strike a balance between the ideals of 'not spilling kaiju blue' and 'killing the monster before it ruins your extremely expensive robot'.

[warty goblin]

That would work, but I think the main concern would be you couldn't turn the thing in place like you can with some tanks by working the treads in opposite directions. Though, I suppose, if you can turn a tank with a 1/0, and the other tread doesn't bind the vehicle in place/pop out of the track, the middle tread wouldn't be that much of a hindrance in a 1/0/-1 turn.

One issue with tanks in this particular scenario. Since the ideal place to hold a kaiju is offshore, a lower profile would mean they would be mostly/completely submerged at that point, at which point you'd probably be better with a submarine. An upright robot would most likely be the ideal, as you'd be able to keep the upper body out of the water and free to act without water resistance, and you only have to overcome the water resistance with relatively small legs while moving.


Nah, if it's submerged, the best way to engage it is with more or less standard anti-submarine warfare techniques. By which I mean depth charges and torpedoes dropped from aircraft. As a bonus, your planes are basically 100% safe from the thing, and given some sensibly placed airfields/aircraft carriers can bomb the crap out of it for hours before it even gets close to anything you care about.


Mind, the entire question is silly, since the reason the movie is about giant robots punching giant monsters is that some people think giant robots punching giant monsters is cool, so they made a movie about that. The premise is entirely implausible, but that's fine, it's just the buy-in for the movie, and there's really no point in trying to justify it. You can have a plausible movie, or you can have giant robots punching giant monsters, but you ain't gonna get both.

Mind, just 'cause you're OK with the buy-in doesn't keep the movie from being unremittingly boring.

[Admiral Squish]

Depth charges and torpedoes are all well and good, but they don't actually serve to slow down the monster rushing toward your cities, and they have the same problems as other conventional weapons, low effectiveness and massive kaiju blue spillage.
I mean, the first monster hit LA. As in America. The nation with all the biggest and nastiest weaponry. With the full force of the american military at the time, it took them five full days to take down Trespasser. Bombs and missiles along clearly don't cut it.

[The Glyphstone]

Depth charges and torpedoes are all well and good, but they don't actually serve to slow down the monster rushing toward your cities, and they have the same problems as other conventional weapons, low effectiveness and massive kaiju blue spillage.
I mean, the first monster hit LA. As in America. The nation with all the biggest and nastiest weaponry. With the full force of the american military at the time, it took them five full days to take down Trespasser. Bombs and missiles along clearly don't cut it.

Even then, I think they finally had to nuke Trespasser to put it down for good. Part of the setting conceit is the kaiju's atypical resilience versus conventional-style weaponry, even when such weaponry would logically be more destructive than giant robot fists.

[GloatingSwine]

Nah, if it's submerged, the best way to engage it is with more or less standard anti-submarine warfare techniques. By which I mean depth charges and torpedoes dropped from aircraft. As a bonus, your planes are basically 100% safe from the thing, and given some sensibly placed airfields/aircraft carriers can bomb the crap out of it for hours before it even gets close to anything you care about.


I dunno, Kaiju can trivially remain below crush depth of any submarine we've designed anything to fight and they are at least supersonic underwater (it's ~2000 miles from the Mariana Trench to Hong Kong and it doesn't take Leatherback and Otachi that long to get there).

Standard ASW would be hilariously ineffective against them.

You're going to need at minimum supercavitating torpedoes to even try and hit them, and probably need nuclear warheads in them to do anything significant (and remember, the individual kaiju attacks aren't actually the strategic objective, the objective is merely to use the breach repeatedly until it is wide enough and stable enough to send an extinction wave, so just nuking them as they come through wouldn't work forever).

[Admiral Squish]

They did, in fact, have to use nukes to take down Trespasser.

Hmm. Can one measure the force of an explosion in joules? I found an article claiming that Gypsy Danger's rocket punch delivered something in the neighborhood of 125 million joules (the comparison was getting hit was equivalent to 'a Boeing 747 going 60 miles per hour–the same as typical runway exit speeds, except that the exit is to your face) but I have no idea how that would compare to the effects of explosives. Can they even be compared?

[The Glyphstone]

One ton of TNT releases 4.184 × 10^9 joules of energy, according to Google. The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a 15-KT detonation, or roughly 6.3x10^13 Joules. In comparison, that estimate of Gypsy Danger's punch delivers 1.25x10^8 joules.....so a nuke is approximately x100,000 as energetic.

[Admiral Squish]

One ton of TNT releases 4.184 × 10^9 joules of energy, according to Google. The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a 15-KT detonation, or roughly 6.3x10^13 Joules. In comparison, that estimate of Gypsy Danger's punch delivers 1.25x10^8 joules.....so a nuke is approximately x100,000 as energetic.

Thanks for the numbers!

Delivery could also be a factor. 100% of the punch's energy is delivered directly to the target (provided it hits), whereas the explosive would have to be buried inside the kaiju to deliver its full force.
Let's do some figuring. If you set off an explosion like that on a flat surface, and it spread evenly in all directions, a little less than 50% of the explosion would apply force to the surface. Some portion of that would be attenuated by distance and air resistance, and I'm not gonna figure out the math there, but let's just ballpark and say 33% of the total explosive yield impacts the target.
Now, even a tiny fraction of a nuke's yield is still waaaay more than the punch could deliver, which is relatively consistent with what we know. Wikipedia says a tomahawk cruise missile has a yield of 500 kilograms of TNT. If a kilogram is 4.184x10^6 J, then 500 kg adds up to 2.092X10^9, and if 33% transfers to the target, that means we get... 6.9036x10^8. Slightly more than five and a half times the force of a Gypsy Danger rocket punch.
Well, crap. Now I feel silly for procrastinating on my work to crunch those numbers...

[Rogar Demonblud]

I mean, the first monster hit LA. As in America. The nation with all the biggest and nastiest weaponry. With the full force of the american military at the time, it took them five full days to take down Trespasser. Bombs and missiles along clearly don't cut it.

I seem to remember Trespasser tearing the Golden Gate in half, which would mean it made landfall in San Francisco.

The main point still stands, though.

[sktarq]

Actually a hypercativating torpedo with an atomic warhead would be the perfect way to kill them. The pressure wave even from a tiny warhead wouldbe bigger than punching every part of the kaiju in sequence (and crush pressure resilience wouldn't help-this would be about pressure differential). Just like fishing with dynamite is effective on a far bigger scale than the explosion in air would indicate.

As for being supersonic underwater-BS-we see them moving underwater at fast but not totally unreasonable speed. The changes in earth water's hydrodynamics would be something that would have to be head cannoned. would have to be a continuity error you've just found. . . Another of the many many logical faults in the movie.

Also nukes would be fine for dealing with them at the throat- nukes cause the throat to close. Also humanity knows how to make lots of nukes pretty fast if we wanted to. Also would be a much smaller investment in holding them off while other solutions are researched.

Also first kaiju hit SF in the movie, not LA.

And as for minimizing Kaiju Blue spillage you actually want explosives. Systems that penetrate and THEN explode. A bunker buster type system. Only thing better are shockwave systems that do their damage via hydrostatic shock and similar effects. Reason is take a look at people who are killed by BFT and beatings. . . That manner of death is anything but bloodless.

A logical system that justifies mecha is pretty much non existent-there was even a thread about it a while back. That doesn't stop them from being cool and part of a fun movie.

Jeager, Wall, and Kaiju parts of the movie are stupid (well at least totally illogical not consistent with physics etc) and best watched with your brain off
Human parts are anything but.

[warty goblin]

Thanks for the numbers!

Delivery could also be a factor. 100% of the punch's energy is delivered directly to the target (provided it hits), whereas the explosive would have to be buried inside the kaiju to deliver its full force.
Let's do some figuring. If you set off an explosion like that on a flat surface, and it spread evenly in all directions, a little less than 50% of the explosion would apply force to the surface. Some portion of that would be attenuated by distance and air resistance, and I'm not gonna figure out the math there, but let's just ballpark and say 33% of the total explosive yield impacts the target.
Now, even a tiny fraction of a nuke's yield is still waaaay more than the punch could deliver, which is relatively consistent with what we know. Wikipedia says a tomahawk cruise missile has a yield of 500 kilograms of TNT. If a kilogram is 4.184x10^6 J, then 500 kg adds up to 2.092X10^9, and if 33% transfers to the target, that means we get... 6.9036x10^8. Slightly more than five and a half times the force of a Gypsy Danger rocket punch.
Well, crap. Now I feel silly for procrastinating on my work to crunch those numbers...

And this is before you start to have fun with things like shaped charges. Remember kids, when you want to blow a hole in something, a jet of semi-plastic copper traveling 9 km/s is always worth considering!

[Callos_DeTerran]

Actually a hypercativating torpedo with an atomic warhead would be the perfect way to kill them. The pressure wave even from a tiny warhead wouldbe bigger than punching every part of the kaiju in sequence (and crush pressure resilience wouldn't help-this would be about pressure differential). Just like fishing with dynamite is effective on a far bigger scale than the explosion in air would indicate.

As for being supersonic underwater-BS-we see them moving underwater at fast but not totally unreasonable speed. The changes in earth water's hydrodynamics would be something that would have to be head cannoned. would have to be a continuity error you've just found. . . Another of the many many logical faults in the movie.

Also nukes would be fine for dealing with them at the throat- nukes cause the throat to close. Also humanity knows how to make lots of nukes pretty fast if we wanted to. Also would be a much smaller investment in holding them off while other solutions are researched.

Also first kaiju hit SF in the movie, not LA.

And as for minimizing Kaiju Blue spillage you actually want explosives. Systems that penetrate and THEN explode. A bunker buster type system. Only thing better are shockwave systems that do their damage via hydrostatic shock and similar effects. Reason is take a look at people who are killed by BFT and beatings. . . That manner of death is anything but bloodless.

A logical system that justifies mecha is pretty much non existent-there was even a thread about it a while back. That doesn't stop them from being cool and part of a fun movie.

Jeager, Wall, and Kaiju parts of the movie are stupid (well at least totally illogical not consistent with physics etc) and best watched with your brain off
Human parts are anything but.

Yeah, but all that stuff you just explained is boring and would make for an incredibly dull movie.

[GameOfChampions]

It was such a good movie! I loved ALL the scenes with Ron Perlman, he cracked me up and was one of the better after credits scenes I've seen(including some Marvel movies). I hope Pacific Rim 2 can keep up to the first.

[Renegade Paladin]

And this is before you start to have fun with things like shaped charges. Remember kids, when you want to blow a hole in something, a jet of semi-plastic copper traveling 9 km/s is always worth considering!
This forum needs a like button. :smallamused:

[sktarq]

Yeah, but all that stuff you just explained is boring and would make for an incredibly dull movie.

I don't agree it would automatically make a boring movie but I agree that it is better they went the stupid, illogical, etc route. . . and committed to it. It tossed the physics book out the window on day one and ran with the rule of cool. That's a bit of a risky maneuver for me-it means the human side better damn work and don't try to pseudoscience at me. It didn't try to explain much anything in which is good because that would have been almost impossible to do well. It is far better to weave a good story out of a dumb premise than visa versa.


And this is before you start to have fun with things like shaped charges. Remember kids, when you want to blow a hole in something, a jet of semi-plastic copper traveling 9 km/s is always worth considering!

actually a molten molybdenum would get my vote but I like your style