Systems of Magic

[CowardlyPaladin]

I was curious about the mechanical systems of magic in D20, and what classes operate within them.


So first and foremost is the Vancian Casting system, you have a list of spells known, list of spells you can equip per level, and once you cast it, you forget it, D&D dividing that into Arcane, Primal and Divine (I think that Pathfindenr added Occult as a 4th category but i'm not sure).


Then we have the spell point system well you have a certain pool of spell points that you can spend on yoru spells, with higher level ones costing more. In D&D Psionics use this method


Then you have Binder magic, where you take a certain creature into yourself and obtain some of its properties for a period of time.


Then you have the Recharge Magic of Unearthed Arcana, which I believe has no actually classes reflecting it. Basically you have some number of spells per level and when you cast them, they recharge after a certian amount of time depending on the level. Shame no class was based around this, I think the Genni summoning guys from Al-Quim would use this
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm


You have the Incantation system also from Unearthed Arcana, which has no class based around it, but basically ritualized casting. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm

There are the words of power by Pathfinder, which also doesn't have a class designed around it, frankly I don't really understand it all that well.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower.html


There is the Truthspeaker, which is the horribly designed magic based on skill checks

There are Shadowcasters which is...special

And then there are the systems I down own, namely Occult, Martial Adepts and Incarnum, so if anybody could explains those I'd appreciate it


Finally in the realm of third party magic, you have Gem Magic from the Demonwars saga, where you use gemstones in combinations to cast spells, you have the mana system, which is basically spellpoints but they constantly regeneration, you have runes which are based around mixing and matching magic, and finally you have magic that draws on your own life energy. Anybody know any other spell casting systems I'm not aware of? What is your favorite?

[LTwerewolf]

You missed sphere magic from spheres of power.

[Godskook]

Invocations - Warlock and DFA, basically give the class a spammable supernatural weapon that scales d6/2levels, and give them access to spells balanced around at-will casting, typically with 24 hour durations.

Martial Adepts - An adaption of vancian casting for melee, but compared to everything else, very vancian in nature. Recharging is doable in combat, casting maneuvers is more like a sorcerer, and you get buff-based stances that you can switch as a swift action.

Incarnum - Psuedo magic items as class features, combined with an 'essentia pool' that's too small and a feat list too weak, large, and inaccessible.

[Aleolus]

Incarnum magic: Taking soul energy from the world around you and shaping it into temporary magic items that give power based on the souls used to make it

[MisterKaws]

Maneuvers are like playing a card game, with each class having a different "Draw" mechanic.

Incarnum is kinda like Binding, but you get more Melds with less effects each.

[Mehangel]

Spheres of Power is definitely my favorite, although martial adepts (such as ToB and PoW) are a close second.

[CowardlyPaladin]

You missed sphere magic from spheres of power.

Whats that?


Also I forgot Warlocks, I feel so stupid


Can anybody explain how Marial Adept and Incarnum work mechanically btw?


Edit:
I know what TOB is but what is PoW?

[LTwerewolf]

Whats that?


Also I forgot Warlocks, I feel so stupid


Can anybody explain how Marial Adept and Incarnum work mechanically btw?


Edit:
I know what TOB is but what is PoW?

Answering the second question first: That's path of war (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war). It's the pathfinder version of Tome of Battle. I rather like it.

Sphere magic is a completely different way to do magic, using talent points to grant access to spheres, which contain abilities. It's more limited than the standard vancian, but it also allows for more customizable characters, and I've found that certain obscure character concepts come online much sooner using it than using standard magic. Want to be a shapeshifter? There's literally a class for that. Time Mage? Covered. Can be found here. (http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr?Spheres-of-Power) If I recall correctly, it is planned to go up onto the pfsrd sometime soon.

[AmberVael]

If I recall correctly, it is planned to go up onto the pfsrd sometime soon.

Well, "as soon as we can do it," more accurately. If we could put it up on pfsrd right now, we'd do it. But its a time consuming task and we don't really have many people free to work on it. There's been a couple of volunteers offering help recently though, so maybe?

[Maxrim]

With Maneuvers (ToB or PoW) you have X, our larger number, maneuvers known. With 5 minutes practice, you can choose or change which Y, our smaller number, maneuvers you have ready. As soon as an encounter starts, your readied maneuvers are available to you. You can start using maneuvers, after you use one, it's gone. It's still readied, but considered expended, you can't use it anymore. Different classes have different ways of taking all of your readied, expended maneuvers and un-expending them, basically restarting the encounter for you. It combines the options and complexity of a magic-user with the martial's ability to be fresh after any number of encounters.

With Incarnum, you have X, our large number, points of essentia. You have Y, another usually slightly less large number, soulmelds shaped. Then you've got Z, our smaller number, chakra binds available. You unlock different chakra binds, which correspond with magic item slots, as you level up. Not all classes get all of them, most start with none. You have limited access to every slot always.
You choose soulmelds from the entirety of your class' list to have shaped, kinda like bound vestiges, for 24 hours. They are in many ways like magic items. They'll provide an effect, and you can divide your essentia amongst them for additional effects, once you have chakras unlocked and chakra binds available, you can bind them to chakras for more effects.
For example, Soulmeld of Boots for Jumping might give +4 on jump checks. For every point of essentia you put into it, the bonus increases by 2. If you bind it to your feet chakra, you can fly up to 10 feet plus 10 feet per point of essentia invested as a move action.
That's pretty close to an actual soulmeld that I can't remember the name of.
There's a limit on how much essentia you can put into a given thing based on character level, and as a swift action you can move your essentia around as much as you'd like.
Akashic veilweaving (Dreamscarred Press' take) works the same way as Incarnum, though notably it doesn't interfere with magic items. Soulmelds bound to chakras use up that chakra's magic item slot (though if they aren't bound, they leave it alone).

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well, "as soon as we can do it," more accurately. If we could put it up on pfsrd right now, we'd do it. But its a time consuming task and we don't really have many people free to work on it. There's been a couple of volunteers offering help recently though, so maybe?

It wouldn't get confusing that you have an Occultist class which is seperate from theirs?

[LTwerewolf]

It wouldn't get confusing that you have an Occultist class which is seperate from theirs?

If you're referring to the thaumaturge, it has a single ability called occult knowledge, it is not a class based around the occultist mechanics.

[CowardlyPaladin]

If you're referring to the thaumaturge, it has a single ability called occult knowledge, it is not a class based around the occultist mechanics.

According to this, they have a class called Occultist, but maybe I"m wrong
http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr?Spheres-of-Power

[CowardlyPaladin]

With Maneuvers (ToB or PoW) you have X, our larger number, maneuvers known. With 5 minutes practice, you can choose or change which Y, our smaller number, maneuvers you have ready. As soon as an encounter starts, your readied maneuvers are available to you. You can start using maneuvers, after you use one, it's gone. It's still readied, but considered expended, you can't use it anymore. Different classes have different ways of taking all of your readied, expended maneuvers and un-expending them, basically restarting the encounter for you. It combines the options and complexity of a magic-user with the martial's ability to be fresh after any number of encounters.

With Incarnum, you have X, our large number, points of essentia. You have Y, another usually slightly less large number, soulmelds shaped. Then you've got Z, our smaller number, chakra binds available. You unlock different chakra binds, which correspond with magic item slots, as you level up. Not all classes get all of them, most start with none. You have limited access to every slot always.
You choose soulmelds from the entirety of your class' list to have shaped, kinda like bound vestiges, for 24 hours. They are in many ways like magic items. They'll provide an effect, and you can divide your essentia amongst them for additional effects, once you have chakras unlocked and chakra binds available, you can bind them to chakras for more effects.
For example, Soulmeld of Boots for Jumping might give +4 on jump checks. For every point of essentia you put into it, the bonus increases by 2. If you bind it to your feet chakra, you can fly up to 10 feet plus 10 feet per point of essentia invested as a move action.
That's pretty close to an actual soulmeld that I can't remember the name of.
There's a limit on how much essentia you can put into a given thing based on character level, and as a swift action you can move your essentia around as much as you'd like.
Akashic veilweaving (Dreamscarred Press' take) works the same way as Incarnum, though notably it doesn't interfere with magic items. Soulmelds bound to chakras use up that chakra's magic item slot (though if they aren't bound, they leave it alone).


So wait, Manuvers are like spells, but you choose them at any point during the day with preperation, and then when you fight you use them up. Is that hte long and short of it? How does it differ from the three classes? Does Pathfinder change the system dramatically with their PoW book?

Soulmeld sounds really complicated, but you just self create magic items?

[LTwerewolf]

The class in question has been renamed the incanter. Their paizo page needs updating.

[Florian]

There are the words of power by Pathfinder, which also doesn't have a class designed around it, frankly I don't really understand it all that well.

[url]http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower.html[/url

Words of Power can tie in to the other spell-based magic system, like Vancian, Psionic or Shadowcasting.
It´s a system to create your own spells on the fly, with the building blocks being tied to the regular classes. Your class gives you access to the building blocks, your level governs when you get access to the individual building blocks and you can start building from that point out. When you reach certain caster levels, you can begin to combine different word effects into a single spell.

For example, as 5th level spell, I could combine two 3rd level effects into a single spell.
I want to create a "Hell´s Stench" spell on the fly, combining the following elements:
- Target: Burst (Boosted to Long Range, 20 ft. spread).
- Fire Word: Fire Blast (Fire) for 1d6/CL.
- Pain Word: Torture (Pain) for save vs. Nauseated condition.

In a similar mode, I could go for "Seriously pre-buffed Hellhound as high-AC obstacle":
- Target: Selected
- Summoning Word: Servitor III (Hellhound)
- Alignment Word: Alignment Shield
- Force Word: Force Armor

Disclaimer: This system is extremely flexible. And potentially complicated. Either take your time to get familiar with it and prepare some Word cards that can help you combine effects fast, or work out some of your most used spells before the game. People who hesitate, overthink or think too complex should stay away from it, else it bogs down your turns.

[digiman619]

A few more options:

Psionics: I know that it's not technically magic, but neither are Initiators, so there. Essentially you have a pool of points to spend on powers rather than spell slots

Words of Power: From Pathfinder, it gives you aspects of spells that you mix and match to create spell effects.

Also, Dreamscarred Press has made a business out of remaking weird magic systems for Pathfinder; in addition to the aforementioned Path of War for initiators, Akashic Mysteries for Incarnum, and, believe it or not, they are actually working on making Truenamers in Tzocatl (currently in playtesting).

[Hida Reju]

So wait, Maneuvers are like spells, but you choose them at any point during the day with preparation, and then when you fight you use them up. Is that the long and short of it? How does it differ from the three classes? Does Pathfinder change the system dramatically with their PoW book?


You are partially right Maneuvers are like spells with limited effects that come in 4 flavors.

1. Strikes - These Maneuvers hit something and either do more damage, add a status effect/debuff, or let you attack and do a combat trick like Trip/Bull Rush as part of the same action. Usually they take a standard action to do. Each style/school has a different idea behind it and a few of them do pretty good damage.
2. Boosts - These are short term buffs that affect usually your character with some small benefit for 1-4 rounds. Usually activated with Swift actions.
3. Counters - These are in response to something specific usually an attack or saving throw from an effect. Uses your Immediate action and gives you a chance to either resist, dodge, or redirect the effect somehow.
4. Stances - This is an effect that stays in play as long as you are in the stance. Uses a Swift action to enter stays active until you are knocked out of it by a bad status effect or knocked out. Otherwise you stay in it until the battle ends or you start another stance.

Each class(PoW) or Discipline(3.5) has a stat linked to it that affects savings throw DCs like Wizards with Int.

You learn new Maneuvers as you level up like spells usually from a list restricted by school from your class that gave you the maneuver. Every few levels you can usually lose one maneuver to trade up to better versions of an older one.

You pick your Readied Maneuvers at the start of your day with like 5-10 minutes of self meditation/practice. You can usually change them at any point you get a few minutes to do that again. You use them up when you activate them(other than stances they are always available) but every class that uses this system has a built in method to recover the Maneuvers used. Usually this is some trick involving a Standard action to get either one maneuver or a full round action to get them all back at once.

The max level of your chosen maneuvers are determined by your class level in the class that granted the maneuver +1/2 of any class that does not grant maneuvers.

Lvl 1-2 lvl 1
Lvl 3-4 lvl 2
Lvl 5-6 lvl 3
Lvl 7-8 lvl 4
ect

This lets you multi-class and still be relevant to using your maneuvers and makes choosing to multiclass later in character life actually more attractive since you could get higher than lvl 1 maneuver choices faster.

Unlike spells you may not ready more than one of the same maneuver at a time. No stacking 3 of your favorite strike or boost in one fight. If you want to use a certain maneuver more than once per fight you need to use the recharge mechanic of the class to do so. Also a lot of maneuvers have a prerequisite of multiple maneuvers of the same school to even be able to choose them at all.
Hope this explains it a bit.

[Khedrac]

Unlike spells you may not ready more than one of the same maneuver at a time. No stacking 3 of your favorite strike or boost in one fightattack. If you want to use a certain maneuver more than once per fight you need to use the recharge mechanic of the class to do so. Also a lot of maneuvers have a prerequisite of multiple maneuvers of the same school to even be able to choose them at all.

Minor typo there fixed as it actually was fairly important. Most of the strikes take a standard action to use (which also means they are not great with full attacks), hence the no using more than one at once.
In a single fight though you will expect to use multiple - they can synergise reasonably well for consecutive attacks in consecutive rounds.

Also the recharge mechanics vary a lot.
Crusaders (a.k.a. slot-machines) get an automatic recharge, but they also get random determination of available maneuvers from their chosen set. They also have the fewest available at any time.
Warblades get them back just by making a "normal" attack.
Swordsages have to spend a round to recover, but they also get the most at once, so have the largest pool to choose from.

[Hida Reju]

Minor typo there fixed as it actually was fairly important. Most of the strikes take a standard action to use (which also means they are not great with full attacks), hence the no using more than one at once.
In a single fight though you will expect to use multiple - they can synergise reasonably well for consecutive attacks in consecutive rounds.

Also the recharge mechanics vary a lot.
Crusaders (a.k.a. slot-machines) get an automatic recharge, but they also get random determination of available maneuvers from their chosen set. They also have the fewest available at any time.
Warblades get them back just by making a "normal" attack.
Swordsages have to spend a round to recover, but they also get the most at once, so have the largest pool to choose from.

Not sure if you got my meaning, really what I was trying to emphasize is that you cant ready 3 Ruby Nightmare Blade maneuvers. So you can use any maneuver multiple times in a fight just you have to recover them from your class mechanic before you do so. I stated right after I described strikes that they usually take a standard action.

I did not go into the mechanics of the individual classes since there is a lot of needed detail for each. Also the fact that Pathfinder Path of War classes are very different from 3.5 Tome of Battle classes even if the base idea behind the system is the same. I tried to stay a bit more general than that and focus more on the basic shell of the system.

But he is correct Full attacks and strikes do not mix with a few minor exceptions like strike that mimics a full round attack.

[KillingAScarab]

Soulmeld sounds really complicated, but you just self create magic items?Maxrim's description of soulmelds is the most accurate description of Incarnum thusfar. Yes, a soulmeld is very similar to a magic item which you create on your body. It occupies a magic item slot and cannot be transferred to another person. If you shape your allotted soulmelds for the day and then walk into a dead magic area, the soulmelds will be suppressed until you walk out; things which might destroy a magic item would likely unshape a soulmeld. In my opinion, the complications come from one soulmeld being able to potentially have multiple effects, in order to keep it interesting over the course of 20 levels and keep the pool of soulmelds to choose from a bit smaller than if each only had one power. Magic of Incarnum included a character sheet with extra pages for tracking what soulmelds/magic items are in which slots and where you have your essentia invested.

Maxrim was describing a generic soulmeld (though with traits from both the acrobat boots and the airstep sandals), but soulmelds aren't the only use for essentia. Magic of Incarnum includes player races and monsters with racial features which can have essentia invested in them, and there are feats and spells which can use essentia, too. There are even magic items introduced in which you can invest essentia and bind to your chakras.

[Red Fel]

Alright. Let me take a shot at this. Pretty much agree with what's been said so far, but I like the challenge of explaining this stuff in simple terms.

Casting systems!
Vancian: You know this stuff. Moving on.
Psionics: Instead of spell slots, you have power points (PP). You can spend up to your Manifester Level (ML) in PP on any given power. Unlike spells, which scale with caster level, powers don't scale; as a result, you can invest as much or as little in a given power as needed. This is also why you don't tend to have "Lesser" or "Greater" versions of powers - just spend more or less PP on a power to get the result desired.
Maneuvers (Tome of Battle and Path of War): These come in two broad categories.
Stances: These are basically perpetual buffs. They last until you swap them out for another.
Everything else: Strikes, Boosts, and Counters, as mentioned above. Very Vancian. You have your total list of Maneuvers Known (a la Spells Known), and your smaller list of Maneuvers Readied (a la Spells Prepared), but you can swap out your Readied Maneuvers whenever you have some down time. You can also refresh your maneuvers with various class mechanics while in mid-combat.
Incarnum: There are two main facets to this.
Essentia: You get a pool of points. They can be invested in various things - soulmelds, yes, but also feats, sometimes spells or abilities, sometimes even equipment - to increase the benefits of those things.
Soulmelds: As others have said, they're kind of like magic items. They can be shaped, which gives you a benefit, or bound, which gives you an additional benefit but locks the slot (i.e. you can have a magic item on hands and a soulmeld shaped there, but not with a soulmeld bound there). When you take a level of an Incarnum class, you automatically gain access to all of that class' soulmelds, but you can only have so many shaped at a time, and even fewer bound at a time.
Assorted crap in Tome of Magic: Tome of Magic tried to create multiple alternate mechanics. It succeeded at creating one.
Truespeech: Perform spell-like effects with a skill check. You can do it as much as you want, but the DC increases the more you do. Due to poor scaling, this basically requires you to dedicate all of your class resources into this one skill check.
Shadow Magic: You gain SLAs as you would spells, but have to choose a fixed path of abilities as you do. Some of these become (Su) abilities later on. Many of them suck.
Pact Magic: You make a contract with an otherworldly being in exchange for passive, at-will, or every-X-rounds abilities. Some of this stuff, such as the ability to quickly heal ability damage, is incredibly potent and makes for an amazing dip.
Now, you asked specifically about ToB, and since that's a passion of mine, I'll give you the skinny on classes.
Crusader: The Paladin-style ToB class. Get maneuvers from a fairly restricted list, and an automatic maneuver recharge mechanic (that is unfortunately random). The class is focused on taking and dealing damage.
Warblade: The Fighter-style ToB class. Get maneuvers from a broad list, with an efficient and quick maneuver recharge mechanic. The class is Int-based and extremely versatile.
Swordsage: The Monk/Rogue-style ToB class. Get a substantial number of maneuvers from a very broad list, but have a very poor maneuver recharge mechanic. Unlike the other classes, which have fewer maneuvers but can recover and reuse them in combat, a Swordsage is required to be a bit more prepared. Has an adaptation (which is not fully defined) that allows you to treat the class even more like a Monk.
And the PF version, PoW. For what it's worth, I think PoW is even better than ToB.
Stalker: As the Swordsage, the Monk/Rogue-style PoW class.
Warder: Similar to the Crusader, the Paladin-style PoW class, but with even better tanking mechanics, and Int-based.
Warlord: Similar to the Warblade, the Fighter-style PoW class, but Cha-based instead of Int-based.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Alright. Let me take a shot at this. Pretty much agree with what's been said so far, but I like the challenge of explaining this stuff in simple terms.

Casting systems!
Vancian: You know this stuff. Moving on.
Psionics: Instead of spell slots, you have power points (PP). You can spend up to your Manifester Level (ML) in PP on any given power. Unlike spells, which scale with caster level, powers don't scale; as a result, you can invest as much or as little in a given power as needed. This is also why you don't tend to have "Lesser" or "Greater" versions of powers - just spend more or less PP on a power to get the result desired.
Maneuvers (Tome of Battle and Path of War): These come in two broad categories.
Stances: These are basically perpetual buffs. They last until you swap them out for another.
Everything else: Strikes, Boosts, and Counters, as mentioned above. Very Vancian. You have your total list of Maneuvers Known (a la Spells Known), and your smaller list of Maneuvers Readied (a la Spells Prepared), but you can swap out your Readied Maneuvers whenever you have some down time. You can also refresh your maneuvers with various class mechanics while in mid-combat.
Incarnum: There are two main facets to this.
Essentia: You get a pool of points. They can be invested in various things - soulmelds, yes, but also feats, sometimes spells or abilities, sometimes even equipment - to increase the benefits of those things.
Soulmelds: As others have said, they're kind of like magic items. They can be shaped, which gives you a benefit, or bound, which gives you an additional benefit but locks the slot (i.e. you can have a magic item on hands and a soulmeld shaped there, but not with a soulmeld bound there). When you take a level of an Incarnum class, you automatically gain access to all of that class' soulmelds, but you can only have so many shaped at a time, and even fewer bound at a time.
Assorted crap in Tome of Magic: Tome of Magic tried to create multiple alternate mechanics. It succeeded at creating one.
Truespeech: Perform spell-like effects with a skill check. You can do it as much as you want, but the DC increases the more you do. Due to poor scaling, this basically requires you to dedicate all of your class resources into this one skill check.
Shadow Magic: You gain SLAs as you would spells, but have to choose a fixed path of abilities as you do. Some of these become (Su) abilities later on. Many of them suck.
Pact Magic: You make a contract with an otherworldly being in exchange for passive, at-will, or every-X-rounds abilities. Some of this stuff, such as the ability to quickly heal ability damage, is incredibly potent and makes for an amazing dip.
Now, you asked specifically about ToB, and since that's a passion of mine, I'll give you the skinny on classes.
Crusader: The Paladin-style ToB class. Get maneuvers from a fairly restricted list, and an automatic maneuver recharge mechanic (that is unfortunately random). The class is focused on taking and dealing damage.
Warblade: The Fighter-style ToB class. Get maneuvers from a broad list, with an efficient and quick maneuver recharge mechanic. The class is Int-based and extremely versatile.
Swordsage: The Monk/Rogue-style ToB class. Get a substantial number of maneuvers from a very broad list, but have a very poor maneuver recharge mechanic. Unlike the other classes, which have fewer maneuvers but can recover and reuse them in combat, a Swordsage is required to be a bit more prepared. Has an adaptation (which is not fully defined) that allows you to treat the class even more like a Monk.
And the PF version, PoW. For what it's worth, I think PoW is even better than ToB.
Stalker: As the Swordsage, the Monk/Rogue-style PoW class.
Warder: Similar to the Crusader, the Paladin-style PoW class, but with even better tanking mechanics, and Int-based.
Warlord: Similar to the Warblade, the Fighter-style PoW class, but Cha-based instead of Int-based.

Ok.....I think I understand Martial Adapts and Incarnum now thanks to you guys efforts, does Pathfinder dramatically change it or is just a modified updated version. For example, do Stalker, warder, and Warlord just replace Swordsage, Crusader and Warblade?


Also question on Wordcasting, if you make a wordcasting Druid for example, do you not use the Druid spell list anymore and instead use something else?

[Draconium]

Ok.....I think I understand Martial Adapts and Incarnum now thanks to you guys efforts, does Pathfinder dramatically change it or is just a modified updated version. For example, do Stalker, warder, and Warlord just replace Swordsage, Crusader and Warblade?

As someone who's just barely read through the PoW classes, it seems that they are, for the most part, similar enough to be considered updates to the ToB classes. Many of the class features are similar, and the disciplines they have access to are reflective of the disciplines the originals use.

[digiman619]

Ok.....I think I understand Martial Adapts and Incarnum now thanks to you guys efforts, does Pathfinder dramatically change it or is just a modified updated version. For example, do Stalker, warder, and Warlord just replace Swordsage, Crusader and Warblade?


Also question on Wordcasting, if you make a wordcasting Druid for example, do you not use the Druid spell list anymore and instead use something else?

The PoW classes have different recharge actions; Stalker can recover 1 w/a standard action or Wis mod (min. 2) as a full-round action, a warder can recover 1 w/a standard action or Int mod (min 2) as a full-round action that also triggers his Defensive Focus class feature, and a Warlord can get 1 back w/a standard action or can use his gambit gambit class feature to gamble on whether he can do a specific action; if you get it right, you get Cha mod (min 2) back, but if you fail, you only get 1, and get -2 to all d20 rolls until end of turn.

As for wordcasting, you got a word list fro your chosen class.

[LTwerewolf]

I'd argue that the PoW classes aren't replacements for ToB classes. Warblade and warlord have very little in common beyond the word "war." Warlord is more like a bard/marshal/initiator. Warder and Crusader take two different approaches to the same problem, netting a very different result. Stalker is more like ninja, while swordsage is more monk. There are a few similarities between these last two, but they're still very different.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I'd argue that the PoW classes aren't replacements for ToB classes. Warblade and warlord have very little in common beyond the word "war." Warlord is more like a bard/marshal/initiator. Warder and Crusader take two different approaches to the same problem, netting a very different result. Stalker is more like ninja, while swordsage is more monk. There are a few similarities between these last two, but they're still very different.

Could you go into more detail about the specifics of what make these classes different?


Also in regards to Wordcasting, if each class basically gets an alternate spell list of wordspells, how does that even relate to the original class then?

[digiman619]

Also in regards to Wordcasting, if each class basically gets an alternate spell list of wordspells, how does that even relate to the original class then?

Basically, you get a target word ("personal", "burst", "barrier", etc.), one or more effect words (the basic part of the spell, like "corrosive bolt", "force armor", "altered form", etc.) and possibly some meta words (most of which function like (but don't stack with) metamagic feats, like "careful"[essentially still spell], "lengthy" [essentially extend spell], and "manifestation [replaces the spell's Will save with a Fort save]).

And as for the spell list, for example, instead of the standard 4th level druid spells, a Druid can choose from Altered Form, Bestial Form, Fire Wall, Greater Cure, Ice Blast, Ice Wall, Nature's Command, Paralyze Creature, Perfect Form, Purify and Servitor IV.

[Florian]

Also in regards to Wordcasting, if each class basically gets an alternate spell list of wordspells, how does that even relate to the original class then?

It doesn´t.

Wordcasters are pretty flexible on one hand, pretty limited compared to regular spell users on the other.

Each class is given a fixed list of potential Words (in this case: building blocks) to work with, but they can´t create or duplicate the more unique spell effects that are out there. In a sense, that makes wordcasters pretty easy to handle as there are no game breaking options around.

[Milo v3]

Primal isn't a type of magic in 3e/PF. Occult isn't a magic type, but psychic is. There is also wild talent which is a type of psychic magic but it doesn't use spellcasting, instead functioning more like a 3.5e warlock. There is also ki, used by monks and ninja. Finally, you're missing Alchemy which is a type of magic in Pathfinder (used by Alchemist and Investigator).

There is also many many many types of magic in third-party content.

[Alex12]

Could you go into more detail about the specifics of what make these classes different?

Stalker is something like a ninja. They're Wis-based. They're good at critical hits, with automatic bonuses to confirm crits, a stalker art (similar to rogue talents) that can be applied in addition to Improved Critical/Keen/whatever, do extra damage akin to sneak attacks whenever they do a critical and for a number of rounds after. They get a ki pool, bonuses to Stealth and Perception, and so forth. In practice, a Stalker and a Swordsage will probably play similarly, though Stalkers are potentially better archers since they have native access to PoW's ranged discipline Solar Wind, while ToB lacks much in the way of ranged support aside from throwing.

Warder is a tank. They're Int-based, unlike Crusader and Paladin, which are both Cha-based. They get some neat Int-to-stuff bonuses, like replacing Dex with Int for Initiative and Reflex saves, they get free Combat Reflexes, but with AoO based on Int rather than Dex, they get an aura that buffs AC and Will saves of every ally within a certain radius except for themselves, they can apply debuffs on hit that make it harder for enemies to hit anyone except the Warder, and their recovery essentially grants the Combat Patrol feat temporarily. A Silver Crane Warder and a Crusader are mechanically different and will play differently, but from the outside they'll probably look alike.

Warlord is...a little trickier. They are, as the name implies, a warlord. They're Charisma-based, while Warblade was Int-based. If Fighters are your frontline soldiers, the Warlord is your frontline commander. He can take hits, dish out hits, and his daring and inspiring actions give buffs to his allies. I've got the least experience with Warlords, but basically imagine a Bard if, instead of support and magic and singing, the Bard was expected to be right on the front lines mixing it up in melee, and had class features to support that ability, while remaining an inspiring presence on the field.

[CowardlyPaladin]

It doesn´t.

Wordcasters are pretty flexible on one hand, pretty limited compared to regular spell users on the other.

Each class is given a fixed list of potential Words (in this case: building blocks) to work with, but they can´t create or duplicate the more unique spell effects that are out there. In a sense, that makes wordcasters pretty easy to handle as there are no game breaking options around.

So in essense, wordcasters are in fact 6 entirely new classes in terms of spell list, who just happen to share other abilities with existing classes?

[CowardlyPaladin]

Primal isn't a type of magic in 3e/PF. Occult isn't a magic type, but psychic is. There is also wild talent which is a type of psychic magic but it doesn't use spellcasting, instead functioning more like a 3.5e warlock. There is also ki, used by monks and ninja. Finally, you're missing Alchemy which is a type of magic in Pathfinder (used by Alchemist and Investigator).

There is also many many many types of magic in third-party content.

I totally forgot about alchemist (and for that matter Artificer) my bad.

Isn't occult the same thing as psychic?

Your right about Ki, I didn't mention it because not that many classes use it in 3.5 but more than a few use it more extensively in third party.

What is wild talent?

And what third party do you think are interesting? I know the Arcana Evolved system of spell templates, the Demonwars use of Stone magic, and the Warcraft RPG use both the Mana system and the Rune system, is there anything else that seems really interesting to you?

[digiman619]

I totally forgot about alchemist (and for that matter Artificer) my bad.

Isn't occult the same thing as psychic?

Your right about Ki, I didn't mention it because not that many classes use it in 3.5 but more than a few use it more extensively in third party.

What is wild talent?

And what third party do you think are interesting? I know the Arcana Evolved system of spell templates, the Demonwars use of Stone magic, and the Warcraft RPG use both the Mana system and the Rune system, is there anything else that seems really interesting to you?

No, but psychic magic debuted inOccult Adventures, so it's easy to mix them up.

Wild Talent is a feat that allows non-manifesters to have limited psionic abilities and take psionic feats.

[Milo v3]

Isn't occult the same thing as psychic?
Psychic is occult in it's thematics, but there is no type of magic called occult.


Your right about Ki, I didn't mention it because not that many classes use it in 3.5 but more than a few use it more extensively in third party.
In PF ki does more stuff, since there are ki powers and you can unlock your chakras.


What is wild talent?
Wild talents are what kineticists use for spellcasting. They are very similar to 3.5e warlocks, but they have a burn mechanic where to use some abilities you have to take non-lethal damage (which can be reduced or negated by spending actions to gather power and it lowers automatically as you level for your kinetic blast powers), but as you increase your characters burn you become more elemental yourself and get buffs.


And what third party do you think are interesting? I know the Arcana Evolved system of spell templates, the Demonwars use of Stone magic, and the Warcraft RPG use both the Mana system and the Rune system, is there anything else that seems really interesting to you?
Akashic Mysteries is definitely my favourite, it's similar to 3.5e incarnum, except it is streamlined and works much better mechanically and has amazing silk-roads flavour. I've heard good things about ethermagic, which is a type of pool based magic system, but iirc the pool replenishes every round. There is gramarie from these forums, which puts magical-superscience into 3.5e resulting in a very different game.


Wild Talent is a feat that allows non-manifesters to have limited psionic abilities and take psionic feats.
Actually I was referring to the alternate type of magic that kineticists use.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Ok, so going off the explenations of Incarnium and Martial Adepts that we have seen on this thread already, can you explain how the Pathfinder version change?

I'm going to call Psychic magic Occult because it sounds too much like Psionic, and I don't want it to get too confusing.

Also does anybody know about the system from True D20?

[Alex12]

Ok, so going off the explenations of Incarnium and Martial Adepts that we have seen on this thread already, can you explain how the Pathfinder version change?
Basically the subsystem-appropriate version of having a different spell list.

[Milo v3]

Ok, so going off the explenations of Incarnium and Martial Adepts that we have seen on this thread already, can you explain how the Pathfinder version change?
Well, for one, incarnum takes up a body slot when you bind it, meaning that it ends up forcing you to not have any equipment. In veilweaving, you shape these veils and bind them to your chakras into semi-solid states but you can still wear magic items. The veils themselves are completely different, with each being considerably stronger and more balanced than they were in 3.5e. Incarnum also has a strange requirement of needing high enough constitution (and.... charisma I think?) to be able to continue using it, while akashic veilweaving simply uses ability scores to determine the DC's and how much essence you have that you can direct into your veils.

The incarnum classes in 3.5e are Incarnate "Skill based guy who gets power from souls of a particular alignment.", Soulborn "weak warrior who gets power from souls of a particular alignment", and Totemist "warrior who gets power from souls of magical beasts".

But in Pathfinder, the veilweaving classes are Daevic "Warrior who has merged with a spirit of some form of passion, allowing you to shape it's spiritual body into different forms.", Guru "Skilled individual who uses his understanding to manipulate the energy in people and objects and shape energy into different forms and can do things like hit peoples ki points for different effects", Vizier "Mage-like user of akasha who studies how things are connected to create various different veils, very versatile and generally has effects of battlefield control rather than being direct".

[Red Fel]

Ok, so going off the explenations of Incarnium and Martial Adepts that we have seen on this thread already, can you explain how the Pathfinder version change?

Well, I don't know Akasha, so I can't get into that, but I can take a crack at PoW. Here are a few ways that PoW differs from ToB.
Class features. PoW uses different classes with different class features. Let me show you what I mean.
Tome of Battle classes:
Crusader: The only real class feature of this class, other than maneuvers, was its Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike mechanics, granting it a delayed damage pool with bonuses based on how much damage it had taken. It had a few other features, but these were the big ones.
Swordsage: This class got an assortment of features, including Wis-to-stuff, various bonuses based on having a favored discipline, a bonus on Initiative checks, and a capstone that let you use two Boost maneuvers at once.
Warblade: This class primarily got a bunch of bonus feats and Int-to-stuff. It also got a quick refresh mechanic, the ability to switch weapon-based feats to work for other weapons, and a capstone ability that let you use two Stances at once.
Path of War classes:
Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker): The Stalker is frequently compared to the Swordsage, but is a bit less scattered. It gains a ki pool like a Monk, and bonus damage dice like a Rogue. It also offers multiple evasive bonuses, a selection of "Stalker Arts" (similar to Rogue Talents), and other abilities based on evasion and damage spikes.
Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder): The Warder is frequently compared to the Crusader. Unlike the Crusader, the Warder has actual class features. It is an Int-based melee class that offers great defensive bonuses to allies, essentially functioning as a surprisingly effective tanking mechanic. Over time, a Warder can get Int to pretty much everything - number of AoOs, Reflex saves, initiative rolls, even as an AC bonus versus critical hits.
Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord): The Warlord is frequently compared to the Warblade. Unlike the Int-based Warblade, however, the Warlord is Cha-based. Further, instead of just Int-to-stuff and bonus feats, the Warlord gets some fairly versatile features. For instance, Gambits let you choose a risk-and-reward system of customizable combat options; he also gets a list of abilities he can use to grant bonuses to allies, including the ability to share Teamwork feats.
Maneuvers: Tome of Battle had a fixed list of schools - Desert Wind, which dealt with fire damage; Diamond Mind, which substituted Concentration checks for various rolls; Devoted Spirit, which involved healing and some tanking tricks; Iron Heart, which dealt with being a shounen anime hero; Setting Sun, which dealt with throws; Shadow Hand, which dealt with debuffs; Stone Dragon, which traded maneuverability for massive damage; Tiger Claw, for critfishing; and White Raven, for being a team player. There are winners and losers on that list; Stone Dragon was great, but widely criticized for the lack of mobility; Desert Wind is generally derided for doing little more than adding Fire damage, the most resisted damage type. By contrast, Path of War has 11 disciplines... Listed on the PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers). And there are others on the way. And they do some positively crazy stuff. And in many ways, they diversify better than those in ToB did.
It's Pathfinder: Pathfinder made a number of changes. Skills were streamlined, archetypes were introduced. PoW classes benefit from this. Want to play a Warder, but don't want to use sword-and-board? The Zweihander Sentinel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/zweihander-sentinel-warder-archetype) archetype trades shields for two-handed weapons. Like the Warlord, but want to punch people? Steelfist Commando (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/steelfist-commando-warlord-archetype) is the archetype for you. With ToB, what was in the books is what you get; with PoW, the classes have been refined, revised, and redefined.
Support: Notice all those links? PF stuff is supported. There's an online SRD that covers the vast majority of material, which makes referencing rules and mechanics super easy. There's also material that continues to come out. DSP is still working on more stuff. By contrast, ToB was issued once and the material and mechanics were thereafter left untouched. An errata was issued by WotC that proved to be tragically incomplete. ToB marked the twilight of 3.5; PoW is out now, while PF is still alive and well.
Does that help?

[paranoidbox]

Just going to go back to the basics for two seconds to get something cleared up for me: I thought Vancian magic specifically referred to prepared casters such as wizards and clerics. Spontaneous casters were not Vancian, is my understanding (and a quick google search tells me the TV-tropes page at least agrees with me). But I see no one even mentioning Spontanenous casters in this grand debate of magical systems so I'm assuming everyone is sweeping them under the Vancian rug.

Am I missing something?

[LTwerewolf]

Just going to go back to the basics for two seconds to get something cleared up for me: I thought Vancian magic specifically referred to prepared casters such as wizards and clerics. Spontaneous casters were not Vancian, is my understanding (and a quick google search tells me the TV-tropes page at least agrees with me). But I see no one even mentioning Spontanenous casters in this grand debate of magical systems so I'm assuming everyone is sweeping them under the Vancian rug.

Am I missing something?

The "spell slot" system is all under vancian. Spontaneous casters use a variant of the vancian system.

[Florian]

I'm going to call Psychic magic Occult because it sounds too much like Psionic, and I don't want it to get too confusing.

Please don´t. Pathfinder 1PP doesn´t use most of the old naming conventions (beside arcane and divine) and most of the overlap in naming comes from 3PP porting over older 3,5E stuff.

[Milo v3]

Please don´t. Pathfinder 1PP doesn´t use most of the old naming conventions (beside arcane and divine) and most of the overlap in naming comes from 3PP porting over older 3,5E stuff.

Also, the third party class of occultist exists.... which has it's own magic system.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well, I don't know Akasha, so I can't get into that, but I can take a crack at PoW. Here are a few ways that PoW differs from ToB.
Class features. PoW uses different classes with different class features. Let me show you what I mean.
Tome of Battle classes:
Crusader: The only real class feature of this class, other than maneuvers, was its Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike mechanics, granting it a delayed damage pool with bonuses based on how much damage it had taken. It had a few other features, but these were the big ones.
Swordsage: This class got an assortment of features, including Wis-to-stuff, various bonuses based on having a favored discipline, a bonus on Initiative checks, and a capstone that let you use two Boost maneuvers at once.
Warblade: This class primarily got a bunch of bonus feats and Int-to-stuff. It also got a quick refresh mechanic, the ability to switch weapon-based feats to work for other weapons, and a capstone ability that let you use two Stances at once.
Path of War classes:
Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker): The Stalker is frequently compared to the Swordsage, but is a bit less scattered. It gains a ki pool like a Monk, and bonus damage dice like a Rogue. It also offers multiple evasive bonuses, a selection of "Stalker Arts" (similar to Rogue Talents), and other abilities based on evasion and damage spikes.
Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder): The Warder is frequently compared to the Crusader. Unlike the Crusader, the Warder has actual class features. It is an Int-based melee class that offers great defensive bonuses to allies, essentially functioning as a surprisingly effective tanking mechanic. Over time, a Warder can get Int to pretty much everything - number of AoOs, Reflex saves, initiative rolls, even as an AC bonus versus critical hits.
Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord): The Warlord is frequently compared to the Warblade. Unlike the Int-based Warblade, however, the Warlord is Cha-based. Further, instead of just Int-to-stuff and bonus feats, the Warlord gets some fairly versatile features. For instance, Gambits let you choose a risk-and-reward system of customizable combat options; he also gets a list of abilities he can use to grant bonuses to allies, including the ability to share Teamwork feats.
Maneuvers: Tome of Battle had a fixed list of schools - Desert Wind, which dealt with fire damage; Diamond Mind, which substituted Concentration checks for various rolls; Devoted Spirit, which involved healing and some tanking tricks; Iron Heart, which dealt with being a shounen anime hero; Setting Sun, which dealt with throws; Shadow Hand, which dealt with debuffs; Stone Dragon, which traded maneuverability for massive damage; Tiger Claw, for critfishing; and White Raven, for being a team player. There are winners and losers on that list; Stone Dragon was great, but widely criticized for the lack of mobility; Desert Wind is generally derided for doing little more than adding Fire damage, the most resisted damage type. By contrast, Path of War has 11 disciplines... Listed on the PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers). And there are others on the way. And they do some positively crazy stuff. And in many ways, they diversify better than those in ToB did.
It's Pathfinder: Pathfinder made a number of changes. Skills were streamlined, archetypes were introduced. PoW classes benefit from this. Want to play a Warder, but don't want to use sword-and-board? The Zweihander Sentinel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/zweihander-sentinel-warder-archetype) archetype trades shields for two-handed weapons. Like the Warlord, but want to punch people? Steelfist Commando (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/steelfist-commando-warlord-archetype) is the archetype for you. With ToB, what was in the books is what you get; with PoW, the classes have been refined, revised, and redefined.
Support: Notice all those links? PF stuff is supported. There's an online SRD that covers the vast majority of material, which makes referencing rules and mechanics super easy. There's also material that continues to come out. DSP is still working on more stuff. By contrast, ToB was issued once and the material and mechanics were thereafter left untouched. An errata was issued by WotC that proved to be tragically incomplete. ToB marked the twilight of 3.5; PoW is out now, while PF is still alive and well.
Does that help?

Huh, so it sounds like PF is objectively better, do to being supported if nothing else. If i want to adapt it to my game, should I just use the Pathfinder version, or do you think that there is enough in TOB worth salvaging on its own?


As for the naming of occult/psychic thing, if people won't be confused then ok, that sounds good. But what is Occult?
Also does Psychic work differently that other Vancian other than a different spell list?

Also does anybody know what True Sorcery is?

[Florian]

Huh, so it sounds like PF is objectively better, do to being supported if nothing else. If i want to adapt it to my game, should I just use the Pathfinder version, or do you think that there is enough in TOB worth salvaging on its own?


As for the naming of occult/psychic thing, if people won't be confused then ok, that sounds good. But what is Occult?
Also does Psychic work differently that other Vancian other than a different spell list?

Also does anybody know what True Sorcery is?

In regards to ToB/PoW-related stuff, PF is indeed better because its not a one-shot splatt but the developers behind it are still working on it, expanding and tweaking it.

Occult is just the overall theme of the material that psychic magic is part of. Saying "Occult Adventures" is akin to saying "Oriental Adventures", that´s all.

The other "Occult" is a 3PP Class and magic subsystem. This kind of naming overlaps do happen.

[CowardlyPaladin]

In regards to ToB/PoW-related stuff, PF is indeed better because its not a one-shot splatt but the developers behind it are still working on it, expanding and tweaking it.

Occult is just the overall theme of the material that psychic magic is part of. Saying "Occult Adventures" is akin to saying "Oriental Adventures", that´s all.

The other "Occult" is a 3PP Class and magic subsystem. This kind of naming overlaps do happen.

1) I i want to incorporate Martial Adapts in my game, shoudl I port all 6 classes or just the three PF?
2) How does that 3PP system work

[Milo v3]

Also does Psychic work differently that other Vancian other than a different spell list?
It uses emotion and thought components rather than somatic and verbal. Also, it seems to always be spontaneous. Also, the classes that use it have a specific flavour that fits with the psychic flavour.00


Also does anybody know what True Sorcery is?
Only thing that reminds me of is a 3.5e third party thing that basically made it a skill based magic system.


1) I i want to incorporate Martial Adapts in my game, shoudl I port all 6 classes or just the three PF?
Well, there are now six PF martial initiators, since the other day Dreamscarred Press released Path of War: Expanded. But I'd go with Path of War personally. You can have them share a game with the 3.5e versions, but seems abit redundant to me since the 3.5e initiators will be weaker without any class features.


2) How does that 3PP system work
Basically it's 3.5e binders made more complex and each vestige/spirit is given an even more specific flavour (which just makes it harder to fit into a setting IMO).

[LTwerewolf]

We use the rule from PoW where you can substitute a discipline for another with the ToB classes and we find they do just fine compared to the PoW classes.

[Red Fel]

1) I i want to incorporate Martial Adapts in my game, shoudl I port all 6 classes or just the three PF?


Well, there are now six PF martial initiators, since the other day Dreamscarred Press released Path of War: Expanded. But I'd go with Path of War personally. You can have them share a game with the 3.5e versions, but seems abit redundant to me since the 3.5e initiators will be weaker without any class features.

I agree with this. In many ways, the PF versions outshine the 3.5 versions, to the point where it seems almost pointless to have the 3.5 versions if the PF ones are available.

They each focus on archetypes - Crusader/Warder is the big heavy defending knight, Swordsage/Stalker is the Rogue/Monk hybrid who's sneaky and skillful, and Warblade/Warlord is the Fighter-esque daring warrior. Bringing in what amounts to two versions of a class seems a bit redundant, particularly when one of the two has more support, more options, and generally better stuff to use.

That said, as LTwerewolf notes, you could always bring in 3.5 disciplines if you want to. But given how much variety there is in PF's discipline library already, and with even more material coming out, it seems again redundant to also offer 3.5 disciplines. Just a bit excessive, really.

[137beth]

I don't see articifer infusions mentioned on this thread, yet.

In the 3rd party world, Paizo's Witch Hexes arguably count as a magic subsystem. There's also the Antipodism classes ("]Strange Magic classes[/url], the [url="), the Omnyoji's magic system (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/140183/The-Onmyoji--A-Japanese-Occult-Diviner-PFRPG?src=slider_view), the Tinkerer (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/113736/The-Tinker-Master-of-Modular-Mechanical-Mayhem-PFRPG--OGL-35?src=slider_view), the Herbalist (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/114729/The-Herbalist-Base-Class-PFRPG--OGL-35?src=slider_view), and the....eh, I'll just link to a page with all of them. (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/114870/Interjection-Games-Class-Bundle-BUNDLE?src=slider_view&filters=0_45305_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=3827)
Most Interjection Games base classes come with an original subsystem. It's only the most popular ones for which the author goes back and adds another class or two. So...there's a lot of them.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I agree with this. In many ways, the PF versions outshine the 3.5 versions, to the point where it seems almost pointless to have the 3.5 versions if the PF ones are available.

They each focus on archetypes - Crusader/Warder is the big heavy defending knight, Swordsage/Stalker is the Rogue/Monk hybrid who's sneaky and skillful, and Warblade/Warlord is the Fighter-esque daring warrior. Bringing in what amounts to two versions of a class seems a bit redundant, particularly when one of the two has more support, more options, and generally better stuff to use.

That said, as LTwerewolf notes, you could always bring in 3.5 disciplines if you want to. But given how much variety there is in PF's discipline library already, and with even more material coming out, it seems again redundant to also offer 3.5 disciplines. Just a bit excessive, really.

I'm curious, what do the three new pathfinder classes do?


Also 137 ben, how do those magic systems work exactly? I don't have the funds to buy the books

[thorr-kan]

Also does anybody know what True Sorcery is?
(Assuming your mean True Sorcery, by Green Ronin.)

True Sorcery is a skill-based and feat-based magic system published by Green Ronin. It is based on the magic system in the Black Company Campaign Setting. It's meant to replace Vancian casting in a campaign, though there are notes for using it in addition to Vancian casting.

Caster pick spells based on feats; each feat comes with a base effect. Caster's roll a Spellcraft check to see if they are successful. Customizing the effects of those spells increase Spellcraft DC.

It's an incredibly versatile system, but it seems to require incredible bookkeeping, as well. Not for novice players, I think.

[Maxrim]

The three new PoW classes are listed here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444869-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Thread-VII)

[mabriss lethe]

For Troll value alone, I'm going to add Mongoose's rather insane Chaos Magic system.

[CowardlyPaladin]

(Assuming your mean True Sorcery, by Green Ronin.)

True Sorcery is a skill-based and feat-based magic system published by Green Ronin. It is based on the magic system in the Black Company Campaign Setting. It's meant to replace Vancian casting in a campaign, though there are notes for using it in addition to Vancian casting.

Caster pick spells based on feats; each feat comes with a base effect. Caster's roll a Spellcraft check to see if they are successful. Customizing the effects of those spells increase Spellcraft DC.

It's an incredibly versatile system, but it seems to require incredible bookkeeping, as well. Not for novice players, I think.

How does it balance with the rest of D&D? For that matter, how do the three new Martial Adapts from pathfinder weight up?


Also Chaos Mages are Amazing, I love how absurd they are


Edit: Isn't spheres of power a skill based casting system as well?

[Milo v3]

For that matter, how do the three new Martial Adapts from pathfinder weight up?
The initiators are very balanced classes, but they are balanced for Pathfinder, which is stronger than 3.5e to a minor degree.


Edit: Isn't spheres of power a skill based casting system as well?
Nope.

[CowardlyPaladin]

The initiators are very balanced classes, but they are balanced for Pathfinder, which is stronger than 3.5e to a minor degree.


Nope.

Are they balanced against each other?

So how exaclty does spheres of power work?

[Milo v3]

Are they balanced against each other?
Yep, though stalker is the weakest of the Pathfinder initiators. But still balanced.


So how exaclty does spheres of power work?
Instead of spell schools, there are spheres (of power) which are full of various abilities called talents. You get a number of talents, and you can also spend talents to get access to new spheres.

[AmberVael]

Instead of spell schools, there are spheres (of power) which are full of various abilities called talents. You get a number of talents, and you can also spend talents to get access to new spheres.

This is accurate, but let me elaborate on it.


Spheres of Power divides magic into themed sets known as Spheres, including themes like Destruction and Telekinesis just to name a couple. Each of these spheres has a few basic abilities (sometimes just one, sometimes more), such as a damaging ray for Destruction, or the ability to pick up small objects with Telekinesis. Beyond these basic abilities, the magic of each sphere is found in abilities called talents. Talents generally build off of the basic abilities of the sphere, either adding new uses to them or removing limitations from them, but sometimes add in completely new abilities. To give another example, Destruction has a talent to let you throw fire, while Telekinesis has a talent that improves the amount you can lift.

Unlike the vancian magic system, there are many uses of magic in Spheres that you can use as much as you'd like. For instance, the basic ability of Destruction to fire a ray can be done all day long, and you can pick up something with Telekinesis as long as you concentrate. However, more powerful uses of magic requires you to spend a resource known as spell points, which are regained each day by resting. For instance, if you spend a spell point on your basic Destruction ability you deal more damage with it, and by spending a spell point on Telekinesis, you can lift unwilling creatures.

[CowardlyPaladin]

This is accurate, but let me elaborate on it.


Spheres of Power divides magic into themed sets known as Spheres, including themes like Destruction and Telekinesis just to name a couple. Each of these spheres has a few basic abilities (sometimes just one, sometimes more), such as a damaging ray for Destruction, or the ability to pick up small objects with Telekinesis. Beyond these basic abilities, the magic of each sphere is found in abilities called talents. Talents generally build off of the basic abilities of the sphere, either adding new uses to them or removing limitations from them, but sometimes add in completely new abilities. To give another example, Destruction has a talent to let you throw fire, while Telekinesis has a talent that improves the amount you can lift.

Unlike the vancian magic system, there are many uses of magic in Spheres that you can use as much as you'd like. For instance, the basic ability of Destruction to fire a ray can be done all day long, and you can pick up something with Telekinesis as long as you concentrate. However, more powerful uses of magic requires you to spend a resource known as spell points, which are regained each day by resting. For instance, if you spend a spell point on your basic Destruction ability you deal more damage with it, and by spending a spell point on Telekinesis, you can lift unwilling creatures.

Huh so its a bit like wordcasting from pathfinder theN? How is it balanced?

[stack]

Huh so its a bit like wordcasting from pathfinder theN? How is it balanced?

Balance-wise, I would put all the classes in the tier-3 range. Even a caster build to be versatile will end up more specialized than a specialist wizard, for example. In the earliest levels, the at-will nature of some abilities feels strong and the fact that you can access some types of effects (in limited fashion) that are usually reserved for spells at mid levels can throw people off, but you aren't breaking the game accidentally.

More powerful abilities are separated into advanced talents that explicitly require GM permission to take and have various prerequisites, to make it easier to tune the system to your games power level.

I wouldn't say it resembles word casting terribly much.

Check the free sample pdf (http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr?Spheres-of-Power) (slightly out of date) if you want to get a better idea for the basics of the system. A guide to the system is in my signature.