Idea for the Heal skill

[Gildedragon]

The Heal skill is a joke, and we know that. It is virtually useless outside a low (divine) magic or High Lethality campaign. It is flavorful but its uses are all done away with by some basic spells.

So I was wondering, maybe have the skill help the spells. Using the heal skill alongside with any [healing] subschool spells as a full round action to apply metamagics, as if with a metamagic component: probably empower, maximize, extend, echoing, or even eschewing materials (possibly even expensive ones with a high enough DC).. or give a minor rider effect like immunity to some status effects or poison for a couple rounds, or a lesser vigor sort of effect, etc to the healing spell.

[Arael666]

Though I think this should be in the homebrew section, I like the idea.

We could "copy" the 3rd lvl class feature of the incantatrix, make it apply only to certain feats (empower, maximize and extend) and the healing subschool and be used 3+wis modifier times a day.

Also, I don't think it should be a full round action, healing during combat is already a bad move, let’s not make it even worse.

Finaly, I think it should be a class feature for clerics, and not an ability intrinsic of the skill.

[Troacctid]

Sounds a lot like Healing Lorecall.

[daremetoidareyo]

I let players use the heal skill for autopsies too.

seeing as how players find a lot of dead bodies, a skill to determine about when they died, and by what (within reason) is a handy thing to have on deck. I've even gone so far to allow a player to use the heal skill to determine if another character is under mind control. (They had a psychologist type character).

Lastly, an idea that I turned down, but maybe shouldn't have, was to use the heal skill to design custom exercises for temporary strength/dex boosts. With a week of training, and a high enough heal score, the player wanted the guy with the heal skill to train the half orc with a 17 in str up to an 18 for one day (the day of the gladiator arena). I didn't like how cheesable that could be made, but it's an idea.

[ayvango]

We use heal to extract valuable components from dead monsters. You should have surgeon qualification to extract organs for transplantation. And someone of course should do knowledge check beforehand to pinpoint what organs are valuable for that creature.

[Deophaun]

Pathfinder actually does a pretty good job with the basic Heal skill (as well as toning down the various magical cure-alls that otherwise render it useless). Where Pathfinder fails is in the lack of feat and class-skill support that still relegates Heal to a joke.

[Alex12]

I let players use the heal skill for autopsies too.

seeing as how players find a lot of dead bodies, a skill to determine about when they died, and by what (within reason) is a handy thing to have on deck. I've even gone so far to allow a player to use the heal skill to determine if another character is under mind control. (They had a psychologist type character).

This is actually an excellent idea, as well as allowing accurate diagnosis. Clerics don't know actual medicine because they don't need to, they just throw positive energy at the problem until it goes away.

You might also consider allowing the Heal skill to improve the effectiveness of healing spells under some or all conditions (perhaps due to the caster knowing where to aim the positive energy for best effect?)

[Maxrim]

This is what I wrote up for my campaign's homebrew document:

In core D&D, Heal is the worst skill. Period. A level 50 character with max ranks in heal can't measure up to a 1st level Cleric, and the cleric doesn't need the skill at all.
In addition, casting heal on someone is just as effective when they're in the middle of heated combat as when they're in a hospital. You'd think that it'd be a little harder to heal a broken wrist if that wrist is being used.
As such, I'm tying those together. Heal will remain marginally useful at best for a Fighter, but will become necessary for a Cleric/Bard/Favored Soul/Druid/Paladin who wants to be healing.
First, this system isn't necessary, if you have an intelligence of 2 and can't afford to put points in heal, then oh well. You can "Take 100%", and be fully effective.
If you do have points in heal, then allow me to introduce the concept of the base Heal DC. If your heal check beats a DC of 10+(Spell Level*3), it's 100% effective. If you fail this check by 5 or less, you get 90% effectiveness, by 10 or less, 80%. Any lower and you get 75% effectiveness. However, if you succeed by 5 or more, you get 110% effectiveness, by 10 or more? 120% effectiveness.
However, healing is still unrealistically easy in combat, and so, while in combat, you get a -4 penalty on heal checks. When any target of the spell is in a threatened square (within melee reach of an opponent), the penalty increases to -8.
The spell level for an effect, when not otherwise applicable, is equal to 1/2 caster level or caster level equivalent, making it so that the DC for a Paladin's Lay on Hands will always be half again their Paladin Level +10 (rounded down).

[ericgrau]

It's already wonderful at low level for stabilizing, disease and poisons.

If you want to extend it into high level you could create a system of medicinal plants and formulas to prepare them. Some possibly exotic, rare and/or magical. It would overlap with knowledge (nature), the difference being that the DC is lower and that it tells use how to use the plant. Plants would be for healing, plus special effects that work like lesser restoration, remove disease and neutralize poison. Lesser restoration could be divided into 6, for each ability score. Anything else with options could likewise be divided. I think any system that doesn't use a magical plant or object strains verisimilitude.

Next you need a system of random treasure tables for your plants, divided by region. Finally you might add some druid and cleric divination magic to help find them. You might also add certain poisons to the table.


In core D&D, Heal is the worst skill. Period. A level 50 character with max ranks in heal can't measure up to a 1st level Cleric, and the cleric doesn't need the skill at all.
Nah that would be craft or profession. You can pump them to get a few gp worth of benefit per week, which is hard to be useful even at level 1. I don't care how useful the items are you are crafting, it's still only a few gp worth per week. The level 1 cleric wants some extra stabilization attempts beyond his mere 5 spells (some of which may have been burnt for offense or utility), disease and poison management. I've played lethal campaigns where the half of the group that already had heal were pressuring the other half to get cross class ranks. Lack of heal comes with DMs coddling players and not knocking them out enough, and not bothering with disease and poison. Similar to forgery: Documents abound any any civilized world and decide the courses of entire armies and high ranking officials, but most DMs will never bother with a single one. Heal is at least easier to introduce.

[Jormengand]

Nah that would be craft or profession.

Craft is actually pretty useful at low levels, and profession can act as a slightly odd version of knowledge. Heal, OTOH, is pretty pointless.

[Ruethgar]

There is a poorly written, but officially WotC licensed, way for you to actually heal with the heal skill. I think it was DC 20 and 1 min for 1d8 healing or something to that effect. Far from useless or a joke IMO.

[Troacctid]

Using Heal for autopsies is actually in the rules. It's described in, like, Complete Adventurer or something.

[Aleolus]

There is a poorly written, but officially WotC licensed, way for you to actually heal with the heal skill. I think it was DC 20 and 1 min for 1d8 healing or something to that effect. Far from useless or a joke IMO.

Actually, there's also a Skill Trick in CS, Healing Hands. Whenever you succeed on a Heal check to stabilize a dying character they heal 1d6 pointss of damage, potentially putting them back in the positives!

[Zaq]

Actually, there's also a Skill Trick in CS, Healing Hands. Whenever you succeed on a Heal check to stabilize a dying character they heal 1d6 pointss of damage, potentially putting them back in the positives!

Very close, but not quite. It's not "whenever" you stabilize someone—skill tricks only work 1/enc unless you have a separate ability letting them break that limit, so this only works once per combat at best. And since you have to stabilize them with Heal, you don't want to just sit around for 5 minutes while your second friend is bleeding out to wait for your skill trick to reset after helping your first friend.

[Aleolus]

Very close, but not quite. It's not "whenever" you stabilize someone—skill tricks only work 1/enc unless you have a separate ability letting them break that limit, so this only works once per combat at best. And since you have to stabilize them with Heal, you don't want to just sit around for 5 minutes while your second friend is bleeding out to wait for your skill trick to reset after helping your first friend.

1/combat, or 1/minute for non-combat uses. Now yes, that does still mean you can only use it on one friend at a time, but
1) This does not stop you from making Heal checks to stabilize a dying character, it only means that only one of them can get the 1d6 healed.
2) If you. are needing to stabilize more than one friend in a combat encounter then something has gone horribly wrong, and not being able to restore a small number of hp to someone is probably a minor concern. Similar to how if the 20 Con Barbarian drops out of his Rage because it ran out of rounds before combat ended, you have bigger problems

[johnbragg]

What if a DC 20 or 25 Heal check meant full health after a day of rest?

Heal's nominal advantage is that it's always available--you never run out of Skill Checks. Downside is it's not as effective as a spell.

Without spells, you heal 1 hp/level in an 8 hour (night's) rest, and another 1 hp/level for a full day's rest. Normally, you'd go to sleep again, for another 1 hp/level. So for a 36-hour rest, with no help, you get 3 hp/level.

A DC 15 Heal check doubles those numbers, to 6 hp/level.

So a DC 20 check should be better than that. At first I considered boosting from 6 hp/level to 9 hp/level, and said let the frontliners get the healing spells on day 2 to get them up to full. But that's unnecessary bookkeeping, isn't it? Just make it "full health after 2 nights' rest"

In the game world, a DC 15 Heal check most often means a 1st level healer with 1 rank + 3 class (or 4 ranks) +1 wisdom + 2 healer's kit = 17 if he takes 10. A DC 20 Heal check means something like a 3rd level Adept with a 15 Wisdom (Elite array, best stat). Her bonus is 3 ranks + 3 class (or 6 ranks) + 2 Wisdom + 2 healer's kit = 10, so she can meet a DC 20 at-will by taking 10. (OR a snot-nosed special-snowflake 1st level PC with 4 ranks + 4 Wisdom + 2 healer's kit.)

Versimilitude: for night time, before bed the patient drinks a hearty draft of "witches' brew", ensuring a deeper, more restful sleep that heals the body. For daytime, the healer is wrapping the patient's bruises and wounds and sore muscles in blankets soaked in a different formula of witches' brew, like a hot compress with mineral oils and healing salts and whatnot. Alternating with cold cloths soaked in brew.

So the Heal skill means that, if the party can spend 2 nights in a row resting safely, then they're back to full health.

[Deophaun]

Nah that would be craft or profession.
Nope. Once you include the "add an arbitrary number of +10s to the DC to speed up crafting" rule, it's a decent way to snap WBL. It also has spell support, with fabricate and unseen crafter. I had a wizard that converted a bag of holding and then a portable hole into a portable workshop where he burnt his unspent slots on unseen crafter each night with Craft (gemcutting) (gems, being trade goods, sell at full price). Heck, I had a kobold bard that pulled in a decent amount of scratch using Craft (composition), which has even more generous terms.

Now, Perform (accordion)? That will get you killed.

[johnbragg]

In core D&D, Heal is the worst skill. Period. A level 50 character with max ranks in heal can't measure up to a 1st level Cleric, and the cleric doesn't need the skill at all.

This isn't a very good standard to evaluate skills for. Very few skills are relevant at level 50 (or would be if you played level 50). Knowledges, epic stealth and perception, epic crafting.

But the Heal skill is underpowered even at low levels--the classes that take it all get cure light wounds and cure moderate wounds. So I'm suggesting that, besides a DC 15 heal check doubling the rate of natural healing, a DC 20 heal check means automatic full health after a night-and-a-day-and-a-night of rest and TLC.

[Deophaun]

Very few skills are relevant at level 50 (or would be if you played level 50). Knowledges, epic stealth and perception, epic crafting.
Whuh? At level 50, you're dealing with creatures with 50 or more HD on a regular basis. You need commensurate Knowledge skills to know what you're dealing with. Stealth and Perception are opposed rolls, so as one increases, the other must to remain competitive. These are terrible examples.


a DC 20 heal check means automatic full health after a night-and-a-day-and-a-night of rest and TLC.
A DC 20 Heal check means that the Cleric or Druid invests skill points in Heal at levels 1 and 2, and then forgets about it because, with a 20 in Wis, they can Take 10 and heal the party. It's not a fix. It just turns Heal into Balance.

[Ruethgar]

There is a poorly written, but officially WotC licensed, way for you to actually heal with the heal skill. I think it was DC 20 and 1 min for 1d8 healing or something to that effect. Far from useless or a joke IMO.

Went and looked it up, was mixing up books. It is in a supplement of a setting that has some officially licensed books, but the supplement itself is not. So third party. The use of the skill requires a Healer's Kit, Botanist Kit, and an "appropriate setting" incuring a -2 for each missing to a minimum of a healer's kit. DC 20, takes 1hr, can be repeated indefinitely, heals 1d8.

[johnbragg]

Whuh? At level 50, you're dealing with creatures with 50 or more HD on a regular basis. You need commensurate Knowledge skills to know what you're dealing with. Stealth and Perception are opposed rolls, so as one increases, the other must to remain competitive. These are terrible examples.

I was listing the skills that are (sometimes) still relevant at epic levels. As opposed to ones like Appraise, Climb, DEcipher Script, Disable Device, Escape ARtist, Forgery, Gather Informationi, HAndle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Open Lock, Profession, Ride, Search, Sleight of Hand, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope. Those skills, a +50 won't solve any real problems that a +10 (or spells that were available 30 levels ago) wouldn't.


A DC 20 Heal check means that the Cleric or Druid invests skill points in Heal at levels 1 and 2, and then forgets about it because, with a 20 in Wis, they can Take 10 and heal the party. It's not a fix. It just turns Heal into Balance.

Heal, as written, is practically useless from level 1. The only thing it does well at level 1 is stabilize a character in negative hp, and I've never heard of a DM who didn't allow anybody in the party to stabilize a dying party member without rolling.

"There's no point raising this Skill Check past a +10" is a criticism of most of the 3X skill list.

[Deophaun]

I was listing the skills that are (sometimes) still relevant at epic levels. As opposed to ones like Appraise, Climb, DEcipher Script, Disable Device, Escape ARtist, Forgery, Gather Informationi, HAndle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Open Lock, Profession, Ride, Search, Sleight of Hand, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope. Those skills, a +50 won't solve any real problems that a +10 (or spells that were available 30 levels ago) wouldn't.
So, you've never used Imperious Command to cause an Ancient Red Dragon to cower in fear before you? Sleight of Hand to steal the BBEG's Holy Symbol and replace it with a fake in the middle of combat without him noticing? Or just enjoy being John Carter of Mars with a Jump DC of over 100 with the sudden leap maneuver?


Heal, as written, is practically useless from level 1.
Is anyone saying otherwise?


The only thing it does well at level 1 is stabilize a character in negative hp, and I've never heard of a DM who didn't allow anybody in the party to stabilize a dying party member without rolling.
Fun story: At level 3, with no one trained in Heal and having no Wis-based classes on hand, I once summoned a celestial eagle to stabilize a dying party member. My DM did require the roll. And that celestial eagle would come back to save the party's collective hides several times through lucky rolls to accomplish otherwise impossible tasks. Yes, we fluffed it as the same heroic eagle.


"There's no point raising this Skill Check past a +10" is a criticism of most of the 3X skill list.
So let's not compound the error, shall we? (Also, it's just not true) Heck, just including the Star Wars SAGA Treat Injury rules would solve this better. And Pathfinder has feat support that can allow Heal to give temp HP (although, once a day, but still, it's the thought that counts).

[Zaq]

I've also played in groups that have an unofficial houserule that allows you to make a Heal check in battle to gauge how much HP an opponent has left. You don't usually get exact numbers (unless the battle is dragging and the GM wants this thing to die—"HE HAS SIX HP LEFT. FINISH HIM"), but you get something like "he's barely scratched" or "he's almost at half, but not quite" or "it looks like another round like the last one will be the end of him" or whatever. Since this is an unofficial houserule, we don't hard-code what kind of action this takes, but it usually ends up as a free or a swift, because we understand that any action cost greater than that will just make us never even try. There's kind of an unspoken agreement that you don't usually use this more than once or twice an encounter at most. And we've also allowed folks to make a free-action Heal check to determine "which of these two similar-looking enemies is more damaged?"

I dunno if you could turn this from an unwritten rule into a written rule without making it possible to game the system (it works for my groups because no one tries to abuse it), but it might be a place to start?

[johnbragg]

I've also played in groups that have an unofficial houserule that allows you to make a Heal check in battle to gauge how much HP an opponent has left. You don't usually get exact numbers (unless the battle is dragging and the GM wants this thing to die—"HE HAS SIX HP LEFT. FINISH HIM"), but you get something like "he's barely scratched" or "he's almost at half, but not quite" or "it looks like another round like the last one will be the end of him" or whatever. Since this is an unofficial houserule, we don't hard-code what kind of action this takes, but it usually ends up as a free or a swift, because we understand that any action cost greater than that will just make us never even try. There's kind of an unspoken agreement that you don't usually use this more than once or twice an encounter at most. And we've also allowed folks to make a free-action Heal check to determine "which of these two similar-looking enemies is more damaged?"

I dunno if you could turn this from an unwritten rule into a written rule without making it possible to game the system (it works for my groups because no one tries to abuse it), but it might be a place to start?

That seems to be the sort of thing that a DC 25 or 30 check would get you. Yesterday I did the close reading of the Heal skill, and for healing it works by "hp per hit die." So it would follow the same pattern for the check to give you a rough percentage of the enemy's health. "Full, almost full/barely scratched, around half/he's hurt, on his last legs/you're not sure how he's still standing" seems like the level of answer you'd get--things you don't have to metagame much to imagine.

This isn't really game-breaking information, so I'd say a DC 25. A 5th level PC with +5 wisdom is rolling at a +13, so needs a 12 or better to hit DC 25. 1st level PC with +4 wisdom is rolling at +8, needs a 17 or better. Any lower than that, the battle is moving too fast for you to really tell.

[ericgrau]

Nope. Once you include the "add an arbitrary number of +10s to the DC to speed up crafting" rule, it's a decent way to snap WBL.
Using the word "arbitrary" here is a stretch as you'll also have to pump your modifier by the same amount. So instead of 40 gp from a week of work you get 90 gp from a week of work, for example. Pumping something measured in silver pieces as high as I can pump a skill has to be about the least optimized thing ever you can do with pumping a skill check.


It also has spell support, with fabricate and unseen crafter. I had a wizard that converted a bag of holding and then a portable hole into a portable workshop where he burnt his unspent slots on unseen crafter each night with Craft (gemcutting) (gems, being trade goods, sell at full price). Heck, I had a kobold bard that pulled in a decent amount of scratch using Craft (composition), which has even more generous terms.

Now, Perform (accordion)? That will get you killed.
Fabricate is nice. But since it gets zero benefit from speeding up crafting, you don't need to pump your craft skill very high. And there are plenty of broken things you can do with it without any ranks in craft or with very few. And craft is still nearly worthless without the spell. As is profession with or without magic. It's like saying "Such and such grandma car can be fast if you put a 30 psi turbo and methanol in it." Or anything else terrible in the world that gets souped up, rebuilt from the ground up or etc. It's the spell not the skill.

[Deophaun]

Using the word "arbitrary" here is a stretch as you'll also have to pump your modifier by the same amount.
Which you can do thanks to Aid Another and how cheap laborers are. Ship building can be extremely profitable if that's the way you want to go. The only thing that makes Craft appear pointless is that a Wizard does it better. But that's true of everything. Otherwise, this is how a mundane character can break WBL quite comfortably.