unseen servant, is it the most underrated 1rst level 5ed spell ever?

[Joe dirt]

i am thinking this because of the way action economy is in 5ed first of all its a ritual, second u can have more than 1 active at a time because it requires no concentration... you do have to order them individually but that said this is a very powerful 1rst level spell, for example a 1rst level gnome can fly with this spell using 3 castings so nice utility and then keep casting the spell ritually to fly long distance at 15ft a round... u can order the US's to clean in front of your party or drag logs setting off traps... u can use them to shut doors and windows or drag furniature in the way of enemy to divide them as free action.... while US cant "attack" u can still have them drag buckets of cooking grease u acquired from the local tavern for a cheap non spell slot version of the grease spell (or if your a conjurer specialist just summon some hot grease), u can have them give allies potion of healing as free actions leaving u to cast spells,

the key reason this spell is powerful is it frees u and ur allies up to do attacks while they do the other things

[cZak]

Out of curiosity, do you (or hope to) work for Gawker..?

[Joe dirt]

Out of curiosity, do you (or hope to) work for Gawker..?

no, whats gawker?

[Ruslan]

How in heavens does an Unseen Servant fly? First, it has no listed Fly speed. Second,

The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as ....
For sure, a human servant can't fly.

[CaptAl]

Out of curiosity, do you (or hope to) work for Gawker..?

I lol'd. Good show, man.

[Mellack]

The servant only has a Str of 2, so that limits much of what it can do. No flying gnomes, as it doesn't have the strength to pick him up, and it does not have a fly speed. If you have several of them work together (at DM whim), they might be able to pick the gnome up a couple of feet, very likely less than he could jump. They wouldn't be able to move him as you can only move one servant a round.
Servants can do a couple on interesting things, such as hold up a sheet for mobile obscurement. But I believe they are more limited than you want them to be.

[Joe dirt]

The servant only has a Str of 2, so that limits much of what it can do. No flying gnomes, as it doesn't have the strength to pick him up, and it does not have a fly speed. If you have several of them work together (at DM whim), they might be able to pick the gnome up a couple of feet, very likely less than he could jump. They wouldn't be able to move him as you can only move one servant a round.
Servants can do a couple on interesting things, such as hold up a sheet for mobile obscurement. But I believe they are more limited than you want them to be.

sure u can fly albeit low to the ground, still amazing for 1rst level and no spell slots, gnomes weight 40 lbs + gear= around 50-60 lbs... you summon 2 of them and tell them both to "try to carry me on to the max height you can in the direction I point by the time you summon the third the force to carry you should be enough to lift you off the ground and in the direction you want... im thinking 3 human servants could lift you 10 ft into the air and when you get 2nd level you can use them to pull you around like a kite when you get the levitate spell another cheap version of fly spell

[Captbrannigan]

Stop feeding the troll, guys.


To the OP, no.

[Joe dirt]

Stop feeding the troll, guys.


To the OP, no.

im not saying its OP, i am just saying its way underrated... this should be on every wizards wish list, i could see the usefulness at even higher levels when most 1rst level spell loose usefulness. since its shapeless you can have it go through cracks in doors and unlock them from the inside.

[Occasional Sage]

im not saying its OP, i am just saying its way underrated... this should be on every wizards wish list, i could see the usefulness at even higher levels when most 1rst level spell loose usefulness. since its shapeless you can have it go through cracks in doors and unlock them from the inside.

OP, in this use, stands for "original poster". You.

Joe, it would improve your posts' readability if you would spell out words rather than using chat-speak abreviations. Limiting your sentence length, and breaking up your posts into paragraphs, would help as well.

I suspect you'll sound less breathless, and get a different kind of response.

[Mellack]

I am thinking they are right and you are trolling. You think that spending 30 minutes to get lifted maybe as high as ten feet is underrated? It is near useless. A fellow party member could do that for you with a single action. And no you would not be "flying" as you have no horizontal movement. Additionally it does not say they can slip through cracks. They can do what a human servant can, so no other powers.

[Joe dirt]

I am thinking they are right and you are trolling. You think that spending 30 minutes to get lifted maybe as high as ten feet is underrated? It is near useless. A fellow party member could do that for you with a single action. And no you would not be "flying" as you have no horizontal movement. Additionally it does not say they can slip through cracks. They can do what a human servant can, so no other powers.

actually im not the troll and im beginning to wonder if you even understand the meaning of the word.

not sure why all the hate just here to discuss certain spells and yes its limited fly. when was the last time you did this ;) while i agree its not for combat it could get you past certain traps and hazards... becomes really nice if you need to cross a swamp clean as a whistle for example and yes it can it can actually get one past doors with cracks because its a "shapeless" force and not an actual servant... btw water is also "shapeless"

[Mellack]

actually im not the troll and im beginning to wonder if you even understand the meaning of the word.

not sure why all the hate just here to discuss certain spells and yes its limited fly. when was the last time you did this ;) while i agree its not for combat it could get you past certain traps and hazards... becomes really nice if you need to cross a swamp clean as a whistle for example and yes it can it can actually get one past doors with cracks because its a "shapeless" force and not an actual servant... btw water is also "shapeless"

Then please explain how the servants will move you forward? You can only move one a round. That one is not strong enough to hold you up.

[Joe dirt]

Then please explain how the servants will move you forward? You can only move one a round. That one is not strong enough to hold you up.

you summon 2 of them and tell them both to "try to carry me on to the max height you can in the direction I point" by the time you summon the third the force to carry you should be enough to lift you off the ground 10 ft and simply point in the direction you want

all 3 are now moving the direction you point and no longer need the extra action to tell them... basically they are like robots and try to do the same thing over and over even if they dont succeed

once you are airborne you can keep making more to replace the ones that disappear and can now travel 10ft in the air, not bad for 1rst level and again no spell slots

[CantigThimble]

you summon 2 of them and tell them both to "try to carry me on to the max height you can in the direction I point" by the time you summon the third the force to carry you should be enough to lift you off the ground 10 ft and simply point in the direction you want

all 3 are now moving the direction you point and no longer need the extra action to tell them... basically they are like robots and try to do the same thing over and over even if they dont succeed

once you are airborne you can keep making more to replace the ones that disappear and can now travel 10ft in the air, not bad for 1rst level and again no spell slots

Maybe they could do that if you were a gnome, their carrying capacity is only 30lbs apiece. Plus, I'm really not sure what would happen if you tried to change course over 3 rounds since it takes a bonus action to command each one to change its task.

[Joe dirt]

Maybe they could do that if you were a gnome, their carrying capacity is only 30lbs apiece. Plus, I'm really not sure what would happen if you tried to change course over 3 rounds since it takes a bonus action to command each one to change its task.

well since they are constantly trying to go the direction i am pointing just point a different direction

[RustyArmor]

Problem is it takes your bonus action to command one of them to move up to 15' and interact. So two/three of them couldn't move you unless you are extremely stretchy.

[Joe dirt]

Problem is it takes your bonus action to command one of them to move up to 15' and interact. So two/three of them couldn't move you unless you are extremely stretchy.

as i explained before the first two would keep trying to lift you up then when you summon the third one it would now have enough force to do so, then you just point your finger in the direction you wanted because that is what you commanded.

also you can command 2 per turn not just 1, you do have an action you know
so action + bonus action

again the reason this spell is good even at higher levels is because it grants you better action economy, something very valuable in 5th ed

[Waffle_Iron]

Out of curiosity, do you (or hope to) work for Gawker..?

*snerk*

😀

[CantigThimble]

as i explained before the first two would keep trying to lift you up then when you summon the third one it would now have enough force to do so, then you just point your finger in the direction you wanted because that is what you commanded.

also you can command 2 per turn not just 1, you do have an action you know
so action + bonus action

again the reason this spell is good even at higher levels is because it grants you better action economy, something very valuable in 5th ed

You can't spend an action as a bonus action. You can only command one per turn.

Edit: And also, assuming all of this works (which I'm not convinced it does), WHY would you want to be carried 15ft per turn when even a a gnome with 8 str wearing full plate can already move that fast without spending half an hour on rituals?

[Joe dirt]

You can't spend an action as a bonus action. You can only command one per turn.

Edit: And also, assuming all of this works (which I'm not convinced it does), WHY would you want to be carried 15ft per turn when even a a gnome with 8 str wearing full plate can already move that fast without spending half an hour on rituals?

sorry but a "bonus action" is also an action, but usually more limited in scope.

and like i said before this is not a "combat ability" but rather a nice utility you can take.

i can think of several reasons one might want to float over things, perhaps you dont want to leave tracks for an enemy ranger to follow, you can "float" over a swampy area and be squeaky clean while everyone else in the party arrives muddy or avoid an area with trip wires, or use it to avoid hypothermia while traveling in a snow bank or u can just use it to reach that last bottle of wine in your cubbard.

[Professor Gnoll]

i can think of several reasons one might want to float over things, perhaps you dont want to leave tracks for an enemy ranger to follow, you can "float" over a swampy area and be squeaky clean while everyone else in the party arrives muddy or avoid an area with trip wires, or use it to avoid hypothermia while traveling in a snow bank or u can just use it to reach that last bottle of wine in your cubbard.
Okay, but that's... situationally mildly useful. It's hardly the stuff of 'most overrated spell ever!'. More like... a possible, obscure, difficult to set up solution to a potential problem. Which is the stuff of everyday wizardry, really, so this spell is hardly special in that aspect.

[CantigThimble]

sorry but a "bonus action" is also an action, but usually more limited in scope.

[Citation Needed]

[Joe dirt]

Okay, but that's... situationally mildly useful. It's hardly the stuff of 'most overrated spell ever!'. More like... a possible, obscure, difficult to set up solution to a potential problem. Which is the stuff of everyday wizardry, really, so this spell is hardly special in that aspect.

as i said already this floating thing is just 1 example, the MAIN benefit is the fact you get a bonus action a round as long as its not an "attack".... very useful for even high level

[Joe dirt]

[Citation Needed]

PHB pg 189

[CantigThimble]

PHB pg 189

Nowhere on that page does it say that you can use an action as a bonus action. It doesn't describe it as an action 'more limited in scope' either, just a special type of action.

[Professor Gnoll]

as i said already this floating thing is just 1 example, the MAIN benefit is the fact you get a bonus action a round as long as its not an "attack".... very useful for even high level
Except, you know, you don't. That's not how the action economy works. Also, your cunning plan to keep them moving without ordering them would probably not get by most DMs. I... what is this? It's like metagaming and rules lawyering to weasel your way into getting an effect that still isn't even that good, even if it was legal.

[Joe dirt]

Nowhere on that page does it say that you can use an action as a bonus action. It doesn't describe it as an action 'more limited in scope' either, just a special type of action.

apparently you dont know what the meaning of the word "bonus" is. it means in addition to something, on page 189 it spells it out under the section bonus action "Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action." key words "ADDITIONAL ACTION" :smalltongue:

and the reason its limited in scope is because bonus actions usually do not allow you to do anything extra in the case of rogues they can use dash, hide or something else i forget but they limit it. in the case of this spell wizards normally dont get bonus actions but a few spells grant them, this is one of them

[Joe dirt]

Except, you know, you don't. That's not how the action economy works. Also, your cunning plan to keep them moving without ordering them would probably not get by most DMs. I... what is this? It's like metagaming and rules lawyering to weasel your way into getting an effect that still isn't even that good, even if it was legal.

it is legal you can give an unseen servant the order to dig in a particular spot then you can take a nap as it does not need a constant stream of orders

and its not metagaming or rules lawyering when that is how the spell or ability was intended

[Professor Gnoll]

apparently you dont know what the meaning of the word "bonus" is. it means in addition to something, on page 189 it spells it out under the section bonus action "Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action." key words "ADDITIONAL ACTION" :smalltongue:

and the reason its limited in scope is because bonus actions usually do not allow you to do anything extra in the case of rogues they can use dash, hide or something else i forget but they limit it. in the case of this spell wizards normally dont get bonus actions but a few spells grant them, this is one of them
Okay, that's not how it works. This spell doesn't let you do anything with a bonus action that it grants you. You'd still need another ability that would let you use a bonus action. So all this weird chicanery grants you is the ability to use a bonus action that you would still be able to use if you hadn't summoned the unseen servant. So it's entirely pointless, is what I'm saying.

[CantigThimble]

apparently you dont know what the meaning of the word "bonus" is. it means in addition to something, on page 189 it spells it out under the section bonus action "Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action." key words "ADDITIONAL ACTION" :smalltongue:

Sure. If that's the way you want to interpret that then go ahead. However it also says that you can only take one bonus action on your turn, so even if you could exchange an action for a bonus action then you could only spend one of them and the other one would need to be wasted.

Clerics can't make two spiritual weapon attacks in one turn. Or make a spiritual weapon attack and cast healing word in one turn.

[Joe dirt]

Okay, that's not how it works. This spell doesn't let you do anything with a bonus action that it grants you. You'd still need another ability that would let you use a bonus action. So all this weird chicanery grants you is the ability to use a bonus action that you would still be able to use if you hadn't summoned the unseen servant. So it's entirely pointless, is what I'm saying.

like it or not this is how the spell works, it specifically says in the spell you can command servants as bonus actions

[Professor Gnoll]

like it or not this is how the spell works, it specifically says in the spell you can command servants as bonus actions
Right, but that's useless? Unless you want them to carry a gnome over swamp water so it doesn't get muddy. Which could be fixed with Presdigitation anyway.

[Joe dirt]

Sure. If that's the way you want to interpret that then go ahead. However it also says that you can only take one bonus action on your turn, so even if you could exchange an action for a bonus action then you could only spend one of them and the other one would need to be wasted.

Clerics can't make two spiritual weapon attacks in one turn. Or make a spiritual weapon attack and cast healing word in one turn.

its not how i "interpret it" the PHB says in black and white that bonus actions ARE a type of action. and yes you can only do 1 bonus action a round.

so basically in a round you get an action, a move action (which is also a type of limited action based on movement), and a bonus action (if you have some ability which allows it like rogues for hiding or a wizard with unseen servant to move furniture in the way of an enemy)

[CantigThimble]

its not how i "interpret it" the PHB says in black and white that bonus actions ARE a type of action. and yes you can only do 1 bonus action a round.

so basically in a round you get an action, a move action (which is also a type of limited action based on movement), and a bonus action (if you have some ability which allows it like rogues for hiding or a wizard with unseen servant to move furniture in the way of an enemy)

So, you use a bonus action to command unseen servant. Then you try to command another one with your action. But you need to use a bonus action to command it and you already used a bonus action this turn, and the rules say you can only use one bonus action on your turn so you are unable to do it.

[Joe dirt]

Right, but that's useless? Unless you want them to carry a gnome over swamp water so it doesn't get muddy. Which could be fixed with Presdigitation anyway.

you are still not seeing the big picture, you are stuck on this limited fly ability. the true value of this spell is

1 its not concentration

2 it gives you the ability to do bonus actions, like give your comrade thats knocked out a healing potion so you can still cast your fireball and save the day

bonus actions = better than gold

[Professor Gnoll]

2 it gives you the ability to do bonus actions, like give your comrade thats knocked out a healing potion so you can still cast your fireball and save the day

bonus actions = better than gold
Alright, I'm starting to figure out what you're saying. You're saying that you can get your Unseen Servant to use your bonus actions to do things like give out healing potions. Your syntax made it sound like you meant that the Wizard would gain the ability to use a bonus action to do anything.
This is still, however, a pretty niche use. Especially since you'd have to give the Unseen Servant the potions beforehand.

[Joe dirt]

So, you use a bonus action to command unseen servant. Then you try to command another one with your action. But you need to use a bonus action to command it and you already used a bonus action this turn, and the rules say you can only use one bonus action on your turn so you are unable to do it.

as i said before a bonus action IS an action you can do everything that you could do in your bonus action inside the time it takes for your action...

meaning you could cast a spell as your action then command an unseen servant to shut the door so that the enemy has to waste an action doing so (opening doors are actions) then you could also move since you have a move action as well

or

you could send a command to 1 unseen servant to feed a healing potion to one of your downed party members then on your bonus action have another unseen servant feed a different party member then you could also move

[Professor Gnoll]

as i said before a bonus action IS an action you can do everything that you could do in your bonus action inside the time it takes for your action...

meaning you could cast a spell as your action then command an unseen servant to shut the door so that the enemy has to waste an action doing so (opening doors are actions) then you could also move since you have a move action as well

or

you could send a command to 1 unseen servant to feed a healing potion to one of your downed party members then on your bonus action have another unseen servant feed a different party member then you could also move
Well, you only get one bonus action, so you actually couldn't. (You can only command the Unseen Servant with a bonus action.) And, well, these are still niche uses. I mean, they're okay, I guess.

[CantigThimble]

as i said before a bonus action IS an action you can do everything that you could do in your bonus action inside the time it takes for your action...

meaning you could cast a spell as your action then command an unseen servant to shut the door so that the enemy has to waste an action doing so (opening doors are actions) then you could also move since you have a move action as well

or

you could send a command to 1 unseen servant to feed a healing potion to one of your downed party members then on your bonus action have another unseen servant feed a different party member then you could also move

Unseen servant can only be commanded 'as a bonus action'. Not 'as an action or bonus action'. And you can't take two bonus actions in one turn, so you can't make two unseen servant commands in one turn.

Ninjagnolls.

[Joe dirt]

Alright, I'm starting to figure out what you're saying. You're saying that you can get your Unseen Servant to use your bonus actions to do things like give out healing potions. Your syntax made it sound like you meant that the Wizard would gain the ability to use a bonus action to do anything.
This is still, however, a pretty niche use. Especially since you'd have to give the Unseen Servant the potions beforehand.

no there are very few things that give bonus actions, if U summoned for example 3 unseen servants and each had a bucket of cooking oil because your prepared for an adventure and gave each of them a command to "follow me, carry these buckets and then pour them on the ground where i point when i give the signal" then that would be 3 buckets of oil on the ground and the dm is struggling to figure out what 3 buckets of oil does when ignited. because im using a firebolt after that :smallbiggrin:

[Professor Gnoll]

no there are very few things that give bonus actions, if U summoned for example 3 unseen servants and each had a bucket of cooking oil because your prepared for an adventure and gave each of them a command to "follow me, carry these buckets and then pour them on the ground where i point when i give the signal" then that would be 3 buckets of oil on the ground and the dm is struggling to figure out what 3 buckets of oil does when ignited. because im using a firebolt after that :smallbiggrin:
Or, you know, you could get the Fighter to do it. This really isn't that much more clever or effective than any other method of oil dispersal, and also requires 3 spell slots for you to use.
I mean, it's far from terrible. But I wouldn't call it the 'most underrated 1st level spell.'

[Joe dirt]

Unseen servant can only be commanded 'as a bonus action'. Not 'as an action or bonus action'. And you can't take two bonus actions in one turn, so you can't make two unseen servant commands in one turn.

Ninjagnolls.

once again i refer u to the fact that a bonus action IS an action. they are the same thing... its a subset

[Joe dirt]

Or, you know, you could get the Fighter to do it. This really isn't that much more clever or effective than any other method of oil dispersal, and also requires 3 spell slots for you to use.
I mean, it's far from terrible. But I wouldn't call it the 'most underrated 1st level spell.'

no its a ritual, no spell slots required and i am sure a fighter wants to beat things and not take care of the sick

[Mellack]

All of the multiple bonus actions are irrelevant. It specifically says "Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet." So even if you somehow think you can change action types, you can still only make one command to move.

[Professor Gnoll]

no its a ritual, no spell slots required and i am sure a fighter wants to beat things and not take care of the sick
Fair enough on the ritual side, but it's still marginally useful at best. I mean, not every party even HAS a lot of healing potions. Again, not useless but not amazing. Mostly just an overcomplicated way of solving very simple tasks, like a magical Rube Goldberg.

once again i refer u to the fact that a bonus action IS an action. they are the same thing... its a subset
Okay, but... so what? You still can't use it to cast a spell unless you have a specific effect that lets you use the bonus action to cast a spell, which Unseen Servant doesn't.

[CantigThimble]

Sigh, nevermind I found a better way to make my point. Page 4:
http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.02.pdf

[Joe dirt]

Okay, that's not how it works. This spell doesn't let you do anything with a bonus action that it grants you. You'd still need another ability that would let you use a bonus action. So all this weird chicanery grants you is the ability to use a bonus action that you would still be able to use if you hadn't summoned the unseen servant. So it's entirely pointless, is what I'm saying.

it is how it works

This spell creates an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command until the spell ends. The servant springs into existence in an unoccupied space on the ground within range. It has AC 10, 1 hit point, and a Strength of 2, and it can’t attack. If it drops to 0 hit points, the spell ends. Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, lighting fires, serving food, and pouring wine. Once you give the command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next command. If you command the servant to perform a task that would move it more than 60 feet away from you, the spell ends.

[Professor Gnoll]

it is how it works

This spell creates an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command until the spell ends. The servant springs into existence in an unoccupied space on the ground within range. It has AC 10, 1 hit point, and a Strength of 2, and it can’t attack. If it drops to 0 hit points, the spell ends. Once on each of your turns as a bonus action, you can mentally command the servant to move up to 15 feet and interact with an object. The servant can perform simple tasks that a human servant could do, such as fetching things, cleaning, mending, folding clothes, lighting fires, serving food, and pouring wine. Once you give the command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next command. If you command the servant to perform a task that would move it more than 60 feet away from you, the spell ends.
Right, I was misunderstanding you because of your syntax.
Look, this doesn't change anything I've been saying since then. It's still only a marginally useful spell. You can use it to carry a gnome over muddy water, or close doors in your enemy's face, or even pour oil. But that's about it.

[Joe dirt]

Sigh, nevermind I found a better way to make my point. Page 4:
http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.02.pdf

i suppose this is what you are going by?

Can a bonus action be used as an action or vice versa?
For example, can a bard use a bonus action to grant
a Bardic Inspiration die and an action to cast healing
word? No. Actions and bonus actions aren’t interchangeable.
In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration
or healing word on a turn, not both.

thats interesting, when did they change this... wont fly at the table im at

[Professor Gnoll]

i suppose this is what you are going by?

Can a bonus action be used as an action or vice versa?
For example, can a bard use a bonus action to grant
a Bardic Inspiration die and an action to cast healing
word? No. Actions and bonus actions aren’t interchangeable.
In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration
or healing word on a turn, not both.

thats interesting, when did they change this... wont fly at the table im at
They never changed it. It was always like that, people just got confused.
This is why we've been telling you it won't work the whole time.

[CantigThimble]

i suppose this is what you are going by?

Can a bonus action be used as an action or vice versa?
For example, can a bard use a bonus action to grant
a Bardic Inspiration die and an action to cast healing
word? No. Actions and bonus actions aren’t interchangeable.
In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration
or healing word on a turn, not both.

thats interesting, when did they change this... wont fly at the table im at

They never changed it, sage advice isn't errata, it's an explanation of how the rules were always intended to be interpreted.

Edit: Cmon man, wear heavy armor or something. :smalltongue:

[Joe dirt]

Right, I was misunderstanding you because of your syntax.
Look, this doesn't change anything I've been saying since then. It's still only a marginally useful spell. You can use it to carry a gnome over muddy water, or close doors in your enemy's face, or even pour oil. But that's about it.

its a very useful spell. at high levels that bonus action becomes even more valuable to do piddly things because you do NOT want to be wasting time saving the rogue when you need to be casting a spell

[Professor Gnoll]

Cmon man, wear heavy armor or something.
I'm also a professor of ninjutsu.

its a very useful spell. at high levels that bonus action becomes even more valuable to do piddly things because you do NOT want to be wasting time saving the rogue when you need to be casting a spell
But healing isn't that useful in 5E anyway. Prevention is much more worthwhile.
Also, at higher levels you probably have better things to be spending your bonus actions on anyway.

[Joe dirt]

They never changed it, sage advice isn't errata, it's an explanation of how the rules were always intended to be interpreted.

Edit: Cmon man, wear heavy armor or something. :smalltongue:

is that the PC answer? still doesn't change the fundamental reason why this spell kicks ass one bit

[Professor Gnoll]

is that the PC answer? still doesn't change the fundamental reason why this spell kicks ass one bit
Well, except for the part where it doesn't so much 'kick ass' as 'be occasionally useful'. I think you're overrating its power just a tiny bit.
I mean, it can be useful. But it's not the god-tier solve-everything you seem to be making it out to be. Especially since you can't order two servants in once turn.

[Joe dirt]

I'm also a professor of ninjutsu.

But healing isn't that useful in 5E anyway. Prevention is much more worthwhile.
Also, at higher levels you probably have better things to be spending your bonus actions on anyway.

wizards do not normally get bonus actions. only through a few spells.

one of the other "must have" spells is for the same reason. misty step, it is basically a bonus action teleport, and also expeditious retreat... these are must have spells in my book

[Professor Gnoll]

wizards do not normally get bonus actions. only through a few spells.

one of the other "must have" spells is for the same reason. misty step, it is basically a bonus action teleport, and also expeditious retreat... these are must have spells in my book
But when you can only use your bonus action for those incredibly simple tasks, it's just... okay. Not amazing, probably not the most underrated spell ever, just... okay.

[Joe dirt]

Well, except for the part where it doesn't so much 'kick ass' as 'be occasionally useful'. I think you're overrating its power just a tiny bit.
I mean, it can be useful. But it's not the god-tier solve-everything you seem to be making it out to be. Especially since you can't order two servants in once turn.

i just demo how to order more than 1 servant at one time

[CantigThimble]

I mean, every ritual has its niche uses and due to the nature of wizard ritual spellcasting every wizard should really try to learn all of them but I can't see myself getting much mileage out of it 9 combats out of 10. Technically I'ts better to have one on hand than not, but spending 10 minutes out of every hour just for that seems more annoying than helpful.

[Joe dirt]

But when you can only use your bonus action for those incredibly simple tasks, it's just... okay. Not amazing, probably not the most underrated spell ever, just... okay.

a first level spell that practically makes your party trap proof,
a first level spell that can help divide enemies making them easier to be dealt with,
a first level spell that can give healing potions to save party members when they go down so you dont have to
a first level spell that you can put a sheet over send it ahead and draw out ambusers,
a first level spell that can make you unable to be tracked, or diseased by the terrain
a first level spell that can open locked doors for you

and with no spell slots... you call this "not amazing"???

[Professor Gnoll]

a first level spell that practically makes your party trap proof,
a first level spell that can help divide enemies making them easier to be dealt with,
a first level spell that can give healing potions to save party members when they go down so you dont have to
a first level spell that you can put a sheet over send it ahead and draw out ambusers,
a first level spell that can make you unable to be tracked, or diseased by the terrain
a first level spell that can open locked doors for you

and with no spell slots... you call this "not amazing"???
1. Well, only if the DM decides to have the 'shapeless force' trigger traps. Which they probably wouldn't after the first time.
2. Under extremely specific circumstances. If there's a door in the middle of the enemy, sure. But how often does that happen?
3. Okay, that's somewhat useful.
4. Yeah, those ambushers are just going to leap out at that incredibly slow moving sheet.
5. If you're a gnome and happy to move at 15ft a round, sure.
6. Yeah, it can't pick locks. It can perform 'simple tasks' like pouring wine or folding clothes. Opening complicated locks is a little beyond that.
So it remains, kind of okay.

[Joe dirt]

1. Well, only if the DM decides to have the 'shapeless force' trigger traps. Which they probably wouldn't after the first time.
2. Under extremely specific circumstances. If there's a door in the middle of the enemy, sure. But how often does that happen?
3. Okay, that's somewhat useful.
4. Yeah, those ambushers are just going to leap out at that incredibly slow moving sheet.
5. If you're a gnome and happy to move at 15ft a round, sure.
6. Yeah, it can't pick locks. It can perform 'simple tasks' like pouring wine or folding clothes. Opening complicated locks is a little beyond that.
So it remains, kind of okay.

1 if you tell the unseen servant to clean an entire room its going to trigger traps, plus you can have it drag a log around... up to 100 lbs of dragging weight, plenty of force to set off traps

2. happens all the time, allowed my character to escape capture once actually and later break out my entire party

3. yep pretty nice

4. yes and they even wasted an attack on it

5. gnome or halfling and yes this is only useful in some situations, still useful

6. doors can usually 99% of the time be unlocked from inside, since it is shapeless then it can fit inside any crack and then unlock the door

please name me 1 other first level spell with as much utility and still not need a spell slot

[Mellack]

a first level spell that practically makes your party trap proof,
a first level spell that can help divide enemies making them easier to be dealt with,
a first level spell that can give healing potions to save party members when they go down so you dont have to
a first level spell that you can put a sheet over send it ahead and draw out ambusers,
a first level spell that can make you unable to be tracked, or diseased by the terrain
a first level spell that can open locked doors for you

and with no spell slots... you call this "not amazing"???

Only if you have the weakest of DMs.
1 If it can set off traps, you can do the same thing with a rope tied to a stick. Meh.
2 Divide enemies? It has a strength of 2, anything it moves in their way they can move back out of the way with a free object interaction. Useless.
3 Some use, if you want to spend 10 minutes every hour to have you servant hold a healing potion. Otherwise it will take two rounds, one to get it and one to give it. More if they are father than 15 feet. And expect that potion to drop and break if there is any AoE that hits the US and destroys it.
4 It can move up to 60 feet, and alerts your enemies. It literally cannot attack. Anything higher than animal intelligence is going to go on alert that there is something using magic around. Good job at alerting the entire group and making your mission harder.
5. Why would you be unable to be tracked? It doesn't say that it leaves no trail. It has no stealth ability so it would leave one as bad or worse than your character.
6. Can't open locked doors. Has no lockpicking ability. It also doesn't say that it can change its shape, just that it isn't a particular form. So no going through cracks.
It is a decent spell, but not nearly the way you think at any table I have seen. Perhaps your DM lets you get away with such "imaginative" readings. You would get laughed at and told to try something else at the tables I have played at.

[Professor Gnoll]

1 if you tell the unseen servant to clean an entire room its going to trigger traps, plus you can have it drag a log around... up to 100 lbs of dragging weight, plenty of force to set off traps

2. happens all the time, allowed my character to escape capture once actually and later break out my entire party

3. yep pretty nice

4. yes and they even wasted an attack on it

5. gnome or halfling and yes this is only useful in some situations, still useful

6. doors can usually 99% of the time be unlocked from inside, since it is shapeless then it can fit inside any crack and then unlock the door

please name me 1 other first level spell with as much utility and still not need a spell slot
The problem is that these are all really, really specific DM fiat things. I for one would never let my players use the Unseen Servant as an invisible lockpick, because that's obviously not the intent of the spell. If players keep using to set off traps, the DM will inevitably move the traps to the walls or ceiling or have them be set off in different (i.e. magical) ways. These are situationally useful things that I believe most DMs wouldn't let you do anyway. Basically, it seems like you had one or two sessions where the DM let you do some cool stuff with the Unseen Servant, based on some slightly weird rules interpretations and you've decided it's the greatest thing ever. Now, that's great, I'm all for clever spell usage, but in the vast majority of games it's just not going to fly. So I'm still going to say it's an okay spell, and not an amazing one.

[Joe dirt]

1. Well, only if the DM decides to have the 'shapeless force' trigger traps. Which they probably wouldn't after the first time.
2. Under extremely specific circumstances. If there's a door in the middle of the enemy, sure. But how often does that happen?
3. Okay, that's somewhat useful.
4. Yeah, those ambushers are just going to leap out at that incredibly slow moving sheet.
5. If you're a gnome and happy to move at 15ft a round, sure.
6. Yeah, it can't pick locks. It can perform 'simple tasks' like pouring wine or folding clothes. Opening complicated locks is a little beyond that.
So it remains, kind of okay.


The problem is that these are all really, really specific DM fiat things. I for one would never let my players use the Unseen Servant as an invisible lockpick, because that's obviously not the intent of the spell. If players keep using to set off traps, the DM will inevitably move the traps to the walls or ceiling or have them be set off in different (i.e. magical) ways. These are situationally useful things that I believe most DMs wouldn't let you do anyway. Basically, it seems like you had one or two sessions where the DM let you do some cool stuff with the Unseen Servant, based on some slightly weird rules interpretations and you've decided it's the greatest thing ever. Now, that's great, I'm all for clever spell usage, but in the vast majority of games it's just not going to fly. So I'm still going to say it's an okay spell, and not an amazing one.
the unseen servant is not "picking the lock" the is going through a crack in the door (usually at the bottom of door) then unlocking and opening the door, something any servant can do, and no this is not the intent of the spell i suspect they didnt fully playtest this spell or others which are even more powerful like fabricate (with the right skills) or simulacrum but those are not first level either. and yes it would fly unless the dm throws out that spell... there are worse spell that this, but like i said just not at 1rst level

[Joe dirt]

Only if you have the weakest of DMs.
1 If it can set off traps, you can do the same thing with a rope tied to a stick. Meh.
2 Divide enemies? It has a strength of 2, anything it moves in their way they can move back out of the way with a free object interaction. Useless.
3 Some use, if you want to spend 10 minutes every hour to have you servant hold a healing potion. Otherwise it will take two rounds, one to get it and one to give it. More if they are father than 15 feet. And expect that potion to drop and break if there is any AoE that hits the US and destroys it.
4 It can move up to 60 feet, and alerts your enemies. It literally cannot attack. Anything higher than animal intelligence is going to go on alert that there is something using magic around. Good job at alerting the entire group and making your mission harder.
5. Why would you be unable to be tracked? It doesn't say that it leaves no trail. It has no stealth ability so it would leave one as bad or worse than your character.
6. Can't open locked doors. Has no lockpicking ability. It also doesn't say that it can change its shape, just that it isn't a particular form. So no going through cracks.
It is a decent spell, but not nearly the way you think at any table I have seen. Perhaps your DM lets you get away with such "imaginative" readings. You would get laughed at and told to try something else at the tables I have played at.

1 you can thoroughly move books out of place to clean them and move 100lbs with a stick and string... like to see that

2 yes divide enemies, its an action to open a door, meaning you just wasted someones attack for the round, pretty sweet

3 an unseen servant can even heal you with that potion if u go down with the right instructions... just tell it to follow you around and if you fall down for more than 5 seconds it is to feed you this potion.... so this tactic is not just for other party members

4 um so if i come at you with a sheet dragging a log and you wont attack, nice we all wear sheets then :smalltongue:

5 what are the shape of the the tracks then? it is a shapeless force meaning no shape silly

6 as i explained before this is not lockpicking, you dont need to pick the lock if you are on the inside usually

and yes this is a game based on imagination

[Professor Gnoll]

the unseen servant is not "picking the lock" the is going through a crack in the door (usually at the bottom of door) then unlocking and opening the door, something any servant can do, and no this is not the intent of the spell i suspect they didnt fully playtest this spell or others which are even more powerful like fabricate (with the right skills) or simulacrum but those are not first level either. and yes it would fly unless the dm throws out that spell... there are worse spell that this, but like i said just not at 1rst level
No, it really wouldn't. As a DM, I would not let my players do it. Most of these uses are still extremely dependent on a fully compliant DM, and even then are niche uses. So it's an okay spell with a few niche uses, but you're vastly overstating its power.
Well, I suppose it doesn't matter. We've effectively reached the end of this discussion, so I bid you good day. I hope you get some cool uses out of your Unseen Servant.

[Joe dirt]

No, it really wouldn't. As a DM, I would not let my players do it. Most of these uses are still extremely dependent on a fully compliant DM, and even then are niche uses. So it's an okay spell with a few niche uses, but you're vastly overstating its power.
Well, I suppose it doesn't matter. We've effectively reached the end of this discussion, so I bid you good day. I hope you get some cool uses out of your Unseen Servant.

water is shapeless as well, so your saying water cant go under a door? tell this to the flood insurance agents

[JoeJ]

6 as i explained before this is not lockpicking, you dont need to pick the lock if you are on the inside usually

Pre-modern locks usually require a key from both sides.

[CantigThimble]

water is shapeless as well, so your saying water cant go under a door? tell this to the flood insurance agents

A balloon full of pudding is also pretty much shapeless, but if you try to stuff it through a crack it's going to burst. RAW wise, shadows have a specific ability that says they can go through holes as small as 1 inch in diameter, unseen servants have been given no similar ability.

[Joe dirt]

Pre-modern locks usually require a key from both sides.

could you provide reference or evidence to support this? because i am thinking only the rich even had a proper lock and poor had a bar on the door

[Joe dirt]

A balloon full of pudding is also pretty much shapeless, but if you try to stuff it through a crack it's going to burst. RAW wise, shadows have a specific ability that says they can go through holes as small as 1 inch in diameter, unseen servants have been given no similar ability.

actually its got the shape of a balloon container, i am talking specifically about water not in container otherwise it takes the shape of the container

as far as shadows are concerned the monster manual does not describe them as shapeless so they must have some sort of shape

[Zalabim]

1 you can thoroughly move books out of place to clean them and move 100lbs with a stick and string... like to see that

2 yes divide enemies, its an action to open a door, meaning you just wasted someones attack for the round, pretty sweet

4 um so if i come at you with a sheet dragging a log and you wont attack, nice we all wear sheets then :smalltongue:

5 what are the shape of the the tracks then? it is a shapeless force meaning no shape silly

and yes this is a game based on imagination

It can't move more than 60 feet from you anyway, opening a door is not an action, and if it's dragging a log, then it'll leave tracks shaped like its dragging a log.


could you provide reference or evidence to support this? because i am thinking only the rich even had a proper lock and poor had a bar on the door

A barred door isn't locked. You can't pick open a barred door. The most common proper lock is going to look like a common lock, not be something built into the door. Imagine something you'd put on a chest, not something you'd find on a briefcase.

[CantigThimble]

actually its got the shape of a balloon container, i am talking specifically about water not in container otherwise it takes the shape of the container

as far as shadows are concerned the monster manual does not describe them as shapeless so they must have some sort of shape

But the balloon doesn't have a defined shape, it could be a ball, a cube or a cylinder depending on how it was manipulated.

As far are rules are concerned 'shapeless' isn't a rules term with any RAW meaning. The ability to fit through a 1' diameter hole, gaseous form and incoporeality are, and this thing doesn't have any of those. If this stuff gets allowed in your home games then good for you, but if you expect many other DMs to buy your VERY liberal interpretations of the text then you are likely to be disappointed often.

[Joe dirt]

It can't move more than 60 feet from you anyway, opening a door is not an action, and if it's dragging a log, then it'll leave tracks shaped like its dragging a log.



A barred door isn't locked. You can't pick open a barred door. The most common proper lock is going to look like a common lock, not be something built into the door. Imagine something you'd put on a chest, not something you'd find on a briefcase.

obviously you haven't read the entire conversation

[Joe dirt]

But the balloon doesn't have a defined shape, it could be a ball, a cube or a cylinder depending on how it was manipulated.

yes the pudding would take the shape of the balloon and fill it with volume, dont want to go into the details of fluid dynamics but thats what fluids do when they are in a container... take the pudding out and it fits on fine under the door

As far are rules are concerned 'shapeless' isn't a rules term with any RAW meaning. The ability to fit through a 1' diameter hole, gaseous form and incoporeality are, and this thing doesn't have any of those. If this stuff gets allowed in your home games then good for you, but if you expect many other DMs to buy your VERY liberal interpretations of the text then you are likely to be disappointed often.

shapeless is self explanatory and not ambiguous at all, you may not like it but thats what it is and yes i think the spell is more powerful than they intended. there are several such broken spells like for example the contagion spell stops legendary creatures with creeping doom but when magic is involved not everything can be playtested... of course if you see these things actually having a shape and rule it as such the spell would be more 1rst levelish

i would love for a rules clarification on this though and every dm i ever gamed with was cool with it... how they dealt with it was to have complex doors that required some code if it was something important and not have gaps but less sensitive places have gaps and can be manipulated this way

[CantigThimble]

shapeless is self explanatory and not ambiguous at all, you may not like it but thats what it is and yes i think the spell is more powerful than they intended. there are several such broken spells like for example the contagion spell stops legendary creatures with creeping doom but when magic is involved not everything can be playtested... of course if you see these things actually having a shape and rule it as such the spell would be more 1rst levelish

i would love for a rules clarification on this though and every dm i ever gamed with was cool with it... how they dealt with it was to have complex doors that required some code if it was something important and not have gaps but less sensitive places have gaps and can be manipulated this way

Dictionary definition of shapeless:
"Lacking a distinctive or attractive shape."

There's ambiguity. Based on the dictionary definition 'shapeless' could just as easily mean lumpy as what you think it means.

[Joe dirt]

good conversation guys, thanks for the input but i need some shut eye.

will respond tomorrow

[AmbientRaven]

Well, in one game we had the wizard summon it and use it to think nobles mansions were haunted. We then came in as expert ghost hunters, netting a nice little income on our down time.

[Ikitavi]

It is a pretty underrated spell, but a lot depends on GM interpretation.

If the unseen force can fly, or pass through small holes, that makes it MUCH more powerful.

The duration and the fact that it can be ordered as a free action allow a wizard to be able to do a LOT of effects without straining their magic budget for the day.

Want to batman exit? Smoke bomb, have the unseen servant hold your cloak so you appear to still be in the same place, and duck out of line of sight.

Another questionable combo: Can you cast Unseen Servant, go up a Rope Trick, pull the rope after you, and continue to direct the Unseen Servant? If yes, you have a hard to counter way to convince people a building is haunted.

Does Augment Summoning Feat increase the strength of the Unseen Servant? 2 strength can't move or lift much, but 6 can. And it doesn't get tired. So it can life a 60 pound table as an ambulatory shield.

The unseen servant can't attack, but it can LIFT a spear. So can it convince a target that they are flanked? If you saw a spear lift out of the corner of your eye behind you, you would react, wouldn't you? Maybe you could only pull that trick off once per combat, but that is an advantage gained by casting the spell long before combat that costs you nothing to attempt while in combat.

I would argue that the greatest limitation on the spell is its range.

[Flashy]

Does Augment Summoning Feat increase the strength of the Unseen Servant? 2 strength can't move or lift much, but 6 can. And it doesn't get tired. So it can life a 60 pound table as an ambulatory shield.

You know that feat didn't survive the transition to 5th, right? There is no Augment Summoning this edition.

[Captbrannigan]

3 pages already? You guys really like feeding trolls around here.


Opening a door is a part of movement, it doesn't inconvenience the monsters at all to close a door in their face.

Do your own google search for medieval locks. Many door locks were the type that required a key from either side. A common blacksmith could make a number of locks more complicated than a bar across the door (which I would argue can't be picked*).

You cannot perform a bonus action using your action, I don't care what the action itself is. Sure, with Cunning Action you could dash with your bonus and regular actions. That doesn't mean you can hand out Bardic Inspiration dice or anything else that specifically calls out using a bonus action for. If you have an ability granting you a bonus action, you only get one per turn.

Prestidigitation is a cantrip that will clean the mud off your entire retinue's clothes for free all day and doesn't require 10 min of concentration.

You cannot order minions to continuously perform actions, otherwise Rangers would command their pet to attack once and spend the rest of the encounter using their action to attack or cast spells or whatever. You can't combine the attempts of multiple servants to lift you, because you cannot command them to act simultaneously. You command them for 6 seconds of activity, after which if you don't tell them to continue they would cease. I'd say they drop things they're carrying if you don't refresh the command every turn.

Handing out potions or dropping oil requires that you spent your previous turn "arming" them.

Shapeless =/= incorpreal. Even if it could pass under a door, you don't have line of sight and it doesn't have intelligence. "Lift the bar blocking the door" seems simple enough, but I'm just pointing out that there are complications to this plan of yours.

You want it to be heavy enough to set off pressure switches for traps, but somehow it leaves no trail and has better stealth than a character with attributes and skills?

You think dragging a log 15' per round is going to out perform a single skill check to look for traps? Ten foot pole shenanigans get around a lot of traps too, but it's super boring to sit through and just provokes random encounters and/or "meaner" traps. What about the classic "door locks behind you until you defeat enemies" trap? Your US just sealed you all on the wrong side of progress.


*If the bar is heavy enough to actually bar passage, I seriously doubt you could get enough leverage on it to push it up with something thin enough to fit through the crack. A barred door is not the same as a locked door, and like any video game I'd rule the door simply can't be opened from this side. Unseen Servant has potential to get around this, provided it's as simple as just a bar in a notch.

If this was the lock for the stable at a run down inn, I wouldn't waste the PC's time having to "pick" it anyways. You don't have to roll for something most anyone would succeed at, and you certainly shouldn't have to spend resources to either.

For me a barred door is either a simple enough latch they can push right through or it's DM fiat that the door shall not be opened yet.

[Joe dirt]

3 pages already? You guys really like feeding trolls around here.


Opening a door is a part of movement, it doesn't inconvenience the monsters at all to close a door in their face.

Do your own google search for medieval locks. Many door locks were the type that required a key from either side. A common blacksmith could make a number of locks more complicated than a bar across the door (which I would argue can't be picked*).

You cannot perform a bonus action using your action, I don't care what the action itself is. Sure, with Cunning Action you could dash with your bonus and regular actions. That doesn't mean you can hand out Bardic Inspiration dice or anything else that specifically calls out using a bonus action for. If you have an ability granting you a bonus action, you only get one per turn.

Prestidigitation is a cantrip that will clean the mud off your entire retinue's clothes for free all day and doesn't require 10 min of concentration.

You cannot order minions to continuously perform actions, otherwise Rangers would command their pet to attack once and spend the rest of the encounter using their action to attack or cast spells or whatever. You can't combine the attempts of multiple servants to lift you, because you cannot command them to act simultaneously. You command them for 6 seconds of activity, after which if you don't tell them to continue they would cease. I'd say they drop things they're carrying if you don't refresh the command every turn.

Handing out potions or dropping oil requires that you spent your previous turn "arming" them.

Shapeless =/= incorpreal. Even if it could pass under a door, you don't have line of sight and it doesn't have intelligence. "Lift the bar blocking the door" seems simple enough, but I'm just pointing out that there are complications to this plan of yours.

You want it to be heavy enough to set off pressure switches for traps, but somehow it leaves no trail and has better stealth than a character with attributes and skills?

You think dragging a log 15' per round is going to out perform a single skill check to look for traps? Ten foot pole shenanigans get around a lot of traps too, but it's super boring to sit through and just provokes random encounters and/or "meaner" traps. What about the classic "door locks behind you until you defeat enemies" trap? Your US just sealed you all on the wrong side of progress.


*If the bar is heavy enough to actually bar passage, I seriously doubt you could get enough leverage on it to push it up with something thin enough to fit through the crack. A barred door is not the same as a locked door, and like any video game I'd rule the door simply can't be opened from this side. Unseen Servant has potential to get around this, provided it's as simple as just a bar in a notch.

If this was the lock for the stable at a run down inn, I wouldn't waste the PC's time having to "pick" it anyways. You don't have to roll for something most anyone would succeed at, and you certainly shouldn't have to spend resources to either.

For me a barred door is either a simple enough latch they can push right through or it's DM fiat that the door shall not be opened yet.


1 if you do 2 minor actions in a round it does in fact use their action, so drawing a sword and opening a door = action a dm could rule that every encounter the enemies have their swords out but how realistic is that? and bonus if there is a lock on the door cause you can have unseen servant close and lock the door. also its not just barring doors to cause enemies to be separated but its also moving furniture and debris in their way too, once i also had my unseen servant start a bar fight by spilling drinks on people while i stole some coins and slipped out the back

2 i would love for you to leave me a link to a medival lock that cannot be opened from the inside

3 sorry but a bar across a door is something anybody can do and requires no lock picks

4 the bonus action is built into the spell description, this was already sorted out in some obscure document that came out after the PHB... still wont fly at certain tables

5 so? and its 10 mins of casting after which u get 1 hour of useful non concentration tricks

6 actually its in the description of the spell that you can "One you give the command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next command."... meaning you do not have to constantly give commands if for example you say follow me... it will follow you for until the spell ends

7 so it last an hour, police usually load a gun before going on patrol

8 the spell allows the servant the power to do any task any basic servant can do... servants can open locks on doors from the inside... sounds like you need some picks to get out your front door

9 dragging 100 lbs of weight along the ground is to set off traps so is the command to "clean" a room... interaction with objects is how most traps go off
this is different from having them carry you to avoid leaving gnome tracks

10 so you think the designer of a dungeon would spend all this time and resources and not have a way to reset a trap from the outside? like a one way maze? i dont and i would say the unseen servant just saved your lives if they did do it like that.

11 we are talking about a bar on a door, not a bar on a castle gate

12 a bar at a run down stables still have horses :smallbiggrin: how much those cost?

13 and no a medieval bar system or simple lock provided some minor measure of security to the occupancy, just not against this... commoners dont usually have access to magic

[mgshamster]

i would love for you to leave me a link to a medival lock that cannot be opened from the inside

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d0/87/b2/d087b2d6c7c73ce68b25e6b30d2531f8.jpg

One that looks like that on both the inside and outside of the door.

[Joe dirt]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d0/87/b2/d087b2d6c7c73ce68b25e6b30d2531f8.jpg

One that looks like that on both the inside and outside of the door.

U leave a picture with no link.... then u leave commentary... what are u hiding?

Honestly it looks like the outside or a normal door lever u twist and its unlocked I fail to see the problem

[JackPhoenix]

You're right, Unseen Servant IS overpowered if you don't understand (or ignore) the game rules and have extremely permissive DM. But the same can be said about any spell or ability.


U leave a picture with no link.... then u leave commentary... what are u hiding?

Honestly it looks like the outside or a normal door lever u twist and its unlocked I fail to see the problem

If the door is unlocked, yes, you can just turn the handle. You can do it from both sides. If it's locked and key is not in the lock, you can turn the handle all you want, but it won't open.

[Captbrannigan]

http://images.lmgtfy.com/?q=Medieval+keyhole+

Any of those style locks require that the key be inserted, regardless of which side of the door you're on. Congratulations on living in a country where all the door locks you've seen are the modern one-sided variety.


https://924jeremiah.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/a_door.jpg

https://924jeremiah.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/a_door-barred.jpg

You are on the side that you can't see the bar. How do you lift it off with mundane methods? Keep in mind this is the weakest variety of a bar, where there's no latch. Again, I'm giving it to you that this is an instance where Unseen Servant gets you past an otherwise impassable obstacle.


Your unseen servant can't give a potion to a downed ally when it brought a bucket of oil to the party, or vice versa, so it's not a free bonus action spread equipment around.


I cannot envision a scenario where shutting a door has any practical effect on a combat encounter. Given a dungeon crawl/guard post/encampment, if you attract attention and more people show up they should already have weapons drawn. If you just opened and then closed the door, if they had to follow you why wouldn't they have weapons drawn? If they stayed in the room and don't draw their weapons, would they have if you hadn't closed the door?

I can imagine a group that doesn't care about verisimilitude playing creatures that behave absurdly, I cannot envision the DM's or players I play with pulling this stuff off.


......|..|
......|..|
......|a|
[==[.×.]==]
|.s.........s.|
|...............|
|......b.......|
[==[....]==]
......|..|
......|..|
[==[....]==]
|......s....c.|
|...............|
|.s.........s.|
[==[....]==]
......|..|
ETC

a is the position of anyone outside the encounter
b is a pressure switch that drops a solid steel door (x) down blocking exit and triggering a poison cloud at b
c is the wheel/gear which raises the door (x) back up and closes the vents to the poison pit or whatever
s are skeleton guards disguised as suits of armor

In the above, if you trigger this as a group you might be ok but a lone rogue or an US are pretty SOL. If you are at a, you have no clue where c is or how the door operates, so you can't guide your US around.

[Sigreid]

could you provide reference or evidence to support this? because i am thinking only the rich even had a proper lock and poor had a bar on the door

I can provide personal anecdotal evidence from being stationed in Scotland and hitting every historical site I could find. On anything even approximating the D&D tech level locks were either a bar across a door or had a key hole accessible from each side. That's pretty much how the trope of looking through the keyhole worked.

[Joe dirt]

You're right, Unseen Servant IS overpowered if you don't understand (or ignore) the game rules and have extremely permissive DM. But the same can be said about any spell or ability.



If the door is unlocked, yes, you can just turn the handle. You can do it from both sides. If it's locked and key is not in the lock, you can turn the handle all you want, but it won't open.

try this experiment in your own home, 1 go outside, 2 lock the door with key, 3 go inside your house through backdoor, 4 unlock front door with no key because they dont require them to have a key from the INSIDE... congrats you opened a door the way a typical servant would with no key 5 smack yourself on the head

[Sigreid]

try this experiment in your own home, 1 go outside, 2 lock the door with key, 3 go inside your house through backdoor, 4 unlock front door with no key because they dont require them to have a key from the INSIDE... congrats you opened a door the way a typical servant would with no key 5 smack yourself on the head

Except that locks that work that was are a pretty modern invention. I doubt they predate the 20th century based on houses even on west coast US.

[JoeJ]

try this experiment in your own home, 1 go outside, 2 lock the door with key, 3 go inside your house through backdoor, 4 unlock front door with no key because they dont require them to have a key from the INSIDE... congrats you opened a door the way a typical servant would with no key 5 smack yourself on the head

Congratulations, you've successfully adjusted to life in the 21st century. Now go visit a medieval castle and try the same feat.

[Sigreid]

Congratulations, you've successfully adjusted to life in the 21st century. Now go visit a medieval castle and try the same feat.

I looked it up. 1868 for the earliest examples of the kind of lock Joe is assuming.

[MaxWilson]

its a very useful spell. at high levels that bonus action becomes even more valuable to do piddly things because you do NOT want to be wasting time saving the rogue when you need to be casting a spell

Unseen Servant is potentially a very interesting spell. It's one of the top three choices (IMO) for an 18th level wizard with spell mastery, the other two choices being Shield and Disguise Self. Just the fact that it's a free, no-concentration summon with 1 HP (and, potentially, the ability to benefit from Inspiring Leader if your DM rules it can understand you, though honestly as a DM I would rule that as a mindless force it obeys not because it understands you but because the magic lets you alter its mission parameters directly) which takes up space (so non-flying enemies cannot move through its space without spending their action or bonus action on DMG Overrun) means that it's a free way to eat up enemy actions while you pelt them with missile attacks.

Even at lower levels there are a number of ways you could (ab)use it. It can't attack, but it can do anything else that a regular human servant could except attack or move more than 60' from you.

(1) Lay caltrops
(2) Make distracting noises to draw enemies out into the open
(3) Open (trapped?) chests/doors
(4) Pull all the treasure out of suspicious-looking rooms that look like they might be full of explosive runes/booby traps
(5) Help you attack in combat, like a familiar, by distracting the enemy
(6) Stabilize allies
(7) Move around portable cover like tower shields to keep you out of view of the enemy
(8) Dig trenches/battlements
(9) Soak attacks
(10) Carry extra ammunition/equipment for your skeleton warriors
(11) Wear clothing(?) to look like potential (ghostly?) reinforcements. Basically a no-concentration illusion. Subject to all the usual caveats on illusions--won't work against a metagaming DM, won't work on mindless monsters, won't work if the enemy doesn't react the way you expect him to, etc.

#9 would be especially useful for a 6th level Enchanter with Instinctive Charm, because he needs at least one other adjacent creature onto which he can redirect attacks. "Hey, Iron Golem, why don't you hit this here disposable shapeless force instead of me?" It still costs your reaction, and sometimes you'd rather Shield, but unlike Shield, redirecting the attack onto an Unseen Servant is "free" (for values of "free" which aren't extremely time-sensitive).

The spell is definitely better than I first assumed when I started 5E, largely because of the ritual + no-concentration synergy.

Also, this thread definitely has me thinking that I should use this spell more when dungeon crawling, even if it is just, "Servant, carry this here torch and this chunk of meat and travel forty feet in front of me at all times while I hide here in the dark."

[JackPhoenix]

try this experiment in your own home, 1 go outside, 2 lock the door with key, 3 go inside your house through backdoor, 4 unlock front door with no key because they dont require them to have a key from the INSIDE... congrats you opened a door the way a typical servant would with no key 5 smack yourself on the head

Not really. If I lock the door (turn the key in the lock, I can close, but not lock the door if I don't turn the key all the way), I won't open it without a key, regardless of the side I'm at. If I just close them from the outside, sure, I can open them from the inside but not from the outside, because they have only knob and not a handle on the outer side, but they are only closed, not really locked.

If I lock inner door (with the handle on both sides), like the one on my room, and take the key with me, no amount of wriggling the handle will help you open it, unless you break the door in the process. Same with the tool shed locked with padlock. We're talking about LOCKED door, not just closed one, there's a difference.

In any case, we're not talking about modern door.

[Captbrannigan]

try this experiment in your own home, 1 go outside, 2 lock the door with key, 3 go inside your house through backdoor, 4 unlock front door with no key because they dont require them to have a key from the INSIDE... congrats you opened a door the way a typical servant would with no key 5 smack yourself on the head

When was your home built?

[JoeJ]

I looked it up. 1868 for the earliest examples of the kind of lock Joe is assuming.

Can you post a link to that? I have a professional interest in the development of technology.

[JackPhoenix]

Can you post a link to that? I have a professional interest in the development of technology.

http://dailymedieval.blogspot.cz/2012/09/locks-through-ages.html uses the same year, it was patented in 1848. There isn't much info, but apparently, similar lock existed 700 earlier. http://www.larsdatter.com/padlocks.htm explains something more, with photos (there are even Roman padlocks...I'm not sure how secure they were, but they had a keyhole.

[Joe dirt]

guys this should put to rest what typical locks actually looked like and behaved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zp2Xi5OnUM

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHritO7Nww&ebc=ANyPxKphE_6XRwEvEETVX2ppMTaPsz_KqiLe5KWkr3nc4u nLORWUHaXVlYZh5ZkMyxf3jGnnFN4gtXLUTI1H3L1cJmEaOnEf YQ

[RickAllison]

guys this should put to rest what typical locks actually looked like and behaved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zp2Xi5OnUM

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHritO7Nww&ebc=ANyPxKphE_6XRwEvEETVX2ppMTaPsz_KqiLe5KWkr3nc4u nLORWUHaXVlYZh5ZkMyxf3jGnnFN4gtXLUTI1H3L1cJmEaOnEf YQ

So your first one proved that an Unseen Servant wouldn't be able to open it! Hooray!

[Anderlith]

Sorry, I read the first page then jumped here to say that I could achieve all these tasks which you think are possible with an Unseen Servant, with the purchase of a moderately clever mule. My mule is superior to the spell because it never fades & only cost a handful of silver. It doesnt even need me to learn a spell. & I can theoretically own infanite mules.

If you think there is a task my mule can not achieve, but an unseen servant can please tell me.

[RickAllison]

Sorry, I read the first page then jumped here to say that I could achieve all these task that you think are possible with the purchase of a moderately clever mule. My mule is supierior to the spell because it never fades & only cost a handful of silver. It doesnt even need me to learn a spell.

If you think there is a task my mule can not achieve, but an unseen servant can please tell me.

Anything requiring opposable thumbs :smallwink:

[Anderlith]

Donkey opens door - YouTube
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=&ved=0ahUKEwjQoND1_9_LAhVMl4MKHSjmAm8QiE4IHDAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA&sig2=W07zPIUySXeAYCY75HhgmA

This is just an example, for complex machinery more mules may be needed.

[JoeJ]

http://dailymedieval.blogspot.cz/2012/09/locks-through-ages.html uses the same year, it was patented in 1848. There isn't much info, but apparently, similar lock existed 700 earlier. http://www.larsdatter.com/padlocks.htm explains something more, with photos (there are even Roman padlocks...I'm not sure how secure they were, but they had a keyhole.

Thanks. :)

[Joe dirt]

So your first one proved that an Unseen Servant wouldn't be able to open it! Hooray!

i agree if you are using this particular era as the reference, but it also means that if you find a locked house nobody inside could possibly get out... bad design

[Sigreid]

Thanks. :)

The article I found said the pin and tumbler was 1848, the flatter key was 1868. Both mean that repeating firearms, steam engines and I think the telegraph were earlier.

[Occasional Sage]

i agree if you are using this particular era as the reference, but it also means that if you find a locked house nobody inside could possibly get out... bad design

Unless, of course, the people inside have, you know, THE KEY THEY USED TO LOCK THE DOOR, which might or might not (depending on their magical knowledge, foresight, and paranoia) be left near the door.

[Joe dirt]

after thinking about this... the only way for the ancient locks to work 2 ways (and thus be able to lock his own door at night) would be to have a second lock on the inside of the home as well.... and to have the ability to use the same key (for some measure of convenience) both locks would need to be the same... just be a conjuration specialist and pretend to be a vendor near his home while he uses said key on the door and get a look at his key then use minor conjuration to replicate :smallbiggrin:

[Joe dirt]

Unless, of course, the people inside have, you know, THE KEY THEY USED TO LOCK THE DOOR, which might or might not (depending on their magical knowledge, foresight, and paranoia) be left near the door.

look at the design you can only lock the door with this ancient technology from one side or the other... you need 2 separate locks to lock the door all the time one lock for when u are inside, the other when you are out milling around

[Occasional Sage]

look at the design you can only lock the door with this ancient technology from one side or the other... you need 2 separate locks to lock the door

Right, so there are three ways to set up the door:

place a lock on the inside, to protect the residents at night;
place a lock on the outside, to protect the house while the residents are away;
place locks on both sides, presumably to cover both functions.


If either of the first two are the case and you come upon a locked door, there are no people who can be stuck inside: either everybody is gone, or they've locked themselves in with their own key.

In case (3), you'll find in essentially every case that your "people could be locked inside and stuck" scenario is the same no-concern situation. One in every very-few (three million?) double-locked doors with have been locked from the inside by people who want to sleep securely, then locked from the outside by a prankster or a murderous arsonist.

This is such a low-probability event that it's not worth discussing, frankly.

[Joe dirt]

Right, so there are three ways to set up the door:

place a lock on the inside, to protect the residents at night;
place a lock on the outside, to protect the house while the residents are away;
place locks on both sides, presumably to cover both functions.


If either of the first two are the case and you come upon a locked door, there are no people who can be stuck inside: either everybody is gone, or they've locked themselves in with their own key.

In case (3), you'll find in essentially every case that your "people could be locked inside and stuck" scenario is the same no-concern situation. One in every very-few (three million?) double-locked doors with have been locked from the inside by people who want to sleep securely, then locked from the outside by a prankster or a murderous arsonist.

This is such a low-probability event that it's not worth discussing, frankly.

getting locked inside by your own lock could be troublesome for anyone that pissed off a group of adventurers dont ya think? pretty sure most GM's would not like this scenerio

[MeeposFire]

Man I thought this was going to be one of those interesting threads with legitimate uses of the spell. This spell has had at least one good thread devoted to it but unlike this one I recall it did so with agreed upon uses of the spells. Sadly this thread has mostly been lacking.

[Joe dirt]

Man I thought this was going to be one of those interesting threads with legitimate uses of the spell. This spell has had at least one good thread devoted to it but unlike this one I recall it did so with agreed upon uses of the spells. Sadly this thread has mostly been lacking.

sounds like u know everything.... snooort, lovey lets take the yacht out for a spin shall we

[JoeJ]

Man I thought this was going to be one of those interesting threads with legitimate uses of the spell. This spell has had at least one good thread devoted to it but unlike this one I recall it did so with agreed upon uses of the spells. Sadly this thread has mostly been lacking.

How about this: Unseen Servant can't pick a lock, but it can open a door that's just barred. And you don't even need to argue with the DM about whether or not it can fit through the crack. The spell says that it appears in an unoccupied space within range. It does not say that it has to be a space you can see. Create the servant on the other side of the door and have it remove the bar.

[Joe dirt]

here is another thing we discovered, in the case where 2 locks are on the door, one inside and one outside, rogues cant pick the locks in those peoples houses...

basically, if its locked on the inside no rogue can pick it

[JoeJ]

here is another thing we discovered, in the case where 2 locks are on the door, one inside and one outside, rogues cant pick the locks in those peoples houses...

basically, if its locked on the inside no rogue can pick it

That's correct. A rogue can only pick locks they have access to. How is this surprising?

[Joe dirt]

That's correct. A rogue can only pick locks they have access to. How is this surprising?

i created another thread to discuss this topic... basically it breaks all sorts of fantasy art and concepts, to include my favorite video game... skyrim

[RickAllison]

i created another thread to discuss this topic... basically it breaks all sorts of fantasy art and concepts, to include my favorite video game... skyrim

That's assuming it was the norm. If the norm is that is the same lock from both sides (which is comparatively simple) then they are just fine.

[Captbrannigan]

How about this: Unseen Servant can't pick a lock, but it can open a door that's just barred. And you don't even need to argue with the DM about whether or not it can fit through the crack. The spell says that it appears in an unoccupied space within range. It does not say that it has to be a space you can see. Create the servant on the other side of the door and have it remove the bar.

You have to have line of sight to the space you are targeting, as per the standard rules for spellcasting. PHB 203


You are forgetting about a door with a single lock that a key opens from both sides, like the kind that you would look through the keyhole. That keyhole that goes through the door can be accessed from both sides, and from both sides the only way to activate the latch is with the key (or to pick the lock).

Think of a jail cell. A friend on the outside still needs the key to open the door. The key can't be used from inside the cell because they blocked that side, that's why in movies even the prisoner who gets the keys has to reach between the bars and turn the key from the outside.

[Centik]

Out of curiosity, do you (or hope to) work for Gawker..?

That banter... lol.

Anywho, I reckon the unseen servant is aptly "rated". It can help in niche situations, but very rarely is it better than, say, mage hand.

[Ikitavi]

I don't think an Unseen servant could stabilize someone, as that requires a skill roll. There are a lot of options for using it to get an opponent to waste an action.

Like use it to move the arms of a corpse, thereby convincing the enemies you have raised them as undead. They therefore waste an action attacking the corpse of their friend. Also useful in getting THEIR weapons all bloody if you are in a city encounter, so THEY are the ones who have to explain why the holes in their friend's body resemble their own weapons.

Having the Unseen Servant close a door is minor... adding Wizard Lock or whatever it is called now on top of it? That gives your minor wizard encounters a little more oomph.

Have the Unseen Servant carry the torch. That way, you have light without directly illuminating any of the characters.

The servant isn't very powerful, but it can do lots of useful things over its very long duration. More importantly, it can help a wizard feel like a wizard, always having some cheap trick they can display that doesn't use up their limited number of spells per day.

[Joe dirt]

I don't think an Unseen servant could stabilize someone, as that requires a skill roll. There are a lot of options for using it to get an opponent to waste an action.

Like use it to move the arms of a corpse, thereby convincing the enemies you have raised them as undead. They therefore waste an action attacking the corpse of their friend. Also useful in getting THEIR weapons all bloody if you are in a city encounter, so THEY are the ones who have to explain why the holes in their friend's body resemble their own weapons.

Having the Unseen Servant close a door is minor... adding Wizard Lock or whatever it is called now on top of it? That gives your minor wizard encounters a little more oomph.

Have the Unseen Servant carry the torch. That way, you have light without directly illuminating any of the characters.

The servant isn't very powerful, but it can do lots of useful things over its very long duration. More importantly, it can help a wizard feel like a wizard, always having some cheap trick they can display that doesn't use up their limited number of spells per day.

oh yeah i was reminded of one other known trick they can do... they can help make your illusions more believable, while they cant "attack" they can touch creatures so if you cast say minor illusion for example then you can have the unseen servant interact as the object and make the illusion "touchable" when you give the unseen servant the command to create an outward force surrounding the illusion i just made if someone trys touch the illusion.