help with wing's fix.

[Reaper34]

the balance for tiefling wings is way off. it can be worked around but it doesn't fit the system. it takes a lvl 14 ability and gives it to a lvl 1 character for a ability that tops out at 5th lvl (infernal legacy). trying for something that balances a bit more.

1st feather fall at will and double jump height.
3rd may glide with 10 ft forward for every 5 ft drop.
5th levitate 20 feet for 1 round once every short rest.
7th fly for 1 round/con bonus per long rest. gain advantage on balance checks. speed 30 ft
9th fly for 1 round/con bonus per short rest blinding attack on enemies within 5 ft. (flap wings stir up sand) speed 30 ft
11th fly at will with light load
13th fly at will

tell me what you think? this replaces infernal legacy. i haven't had a chance to test it. any tweaks or fixes any of you have used and how they worked out would help.

[Seruvius]

I like it. Getting at-will flight at low levels has always seemed an issue for me balance wise. Even a fullcaster wont get it until 5th leve and it will be using a rare slot at that point.

If I were to change anything it would be the level 9 ability to blind. Sure it makes a certain amount of sense, but kicking up enough dust from ground with wings on your back to impose the blinded condition.. eh. It seems more like an in-game DM decision thing to me, based on the situation at a given time. The fact your flying recharges on a short rest at 9 seems good enough as-is.

[JackPhoenix]

I think the level 5 ability is weird. Flying straight up should be harder for something as un-aerodynamic as winged humanoid than straight flight while maintaining a forward speed. It would also throw up way more dust.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd steal the 3.5 Raptoran's progression-- gliding at 1st, limited flight (Con mod rounds at a time, 10 minutes total/day) at 6th, and full flight at 10th.

[Reaper34]

I think the level 5 ability is weird. Flying straight up should be harder for something as un-aerodynamic as winged humanoid than straight flight while maintaining a forward speed. It would also throw up way more dust.

the idea is it's more of a jump and hard flap. it's more to take advantage of the glide. he can't fly but he use his wings to jump even higher and/or glide from there or hover for a round before he falls.

9th blinding attack isn't that important. i think most dm's would allow it in the right environs "desert" and not in others "inside a house". probably take it out of the write up before play.

full flight at 10th seems to soon to me. have to play test to see. who knows i many have to scrap the whole thing.

[CircuitEngie]

I like the attempt to balance the wings, but it feels complicated and overly powerful at higher levels for what it replaces. I stole from the eagle barbarian level 14 feature, which is a good analog for limited flight.

Simple idea:
At first level, your wings are strong enough to break a fall. You may use your reaction to gain the effects of casting feather fall, targeting only yourself. You regain the use of this power at the end of a short rest.
At fifth level, your wings have grown strong enough to carry you in short bursts. As long as you aren't encumbered, you can use a bonus action to gain a fly speed in feet equal to twice your level until the end of your turn. At the end of your turn, you fall if nothing is holding you aloft.
(Optional) At 15th level, when you use your wings to gain a fly speed, you gain the fly speed for 1 minute.

Complex idea:
You have a Wing Strength equal to your CON mod + Proficiency Bonus (minimum 1). You regain all uses of your Wing Strength at the end of a short rest.
At first level, you can use your reaction to expend one Wing Strength to gain the effects of casting feather fall, targeting yourself only.
At fifth level, you may use a Bonus action to expend one Wing Strength to gain a fly speed equal to your walking speed until the start of your next turn. If you don't have a fly speed at the end of your turn, you fall if nothing is holding you aloft.
At 15th level, flight comes easier to you. When you spend a Wing Strength to gain a fly speed, you gain that speed for 1 minute.

[JoeJ]

Racial abilities should not be tied to level. For one thing, it doesn't make any sense to have a "racial" ability that only a few special people get. And it creates a problem for dealing with NPC who don't have levels.

[Reaper34]

Racial abilities should not be tied to level. For one thing, it doesn't make any sense to have a "racial" ability that only a few special people get. And it creates a problem for dealing with NPC who don't have levels.

in this case it's a case of the wings developing and getting stronger with age. just like the infernal legacy gets stronger as the character learns to tap into it. also tieflings can be radically different from each other. they aren't so much a race as a group of hybrids grouped together due to all being linked to evil creatures in their past. or thats how i read them.

[RickAllison]

in this case it's a case of the wings developing and getting stronger with age. just like the infernal legacy gets stronger as the character learns to tap into it. also tieflings can be radically different from each other. they aren't so much a race as a group of hybrids grouped together due to all being linked to evil creatures in their past. or thats how i read them.

By that logic, why couldn't I just start as a 40 year old tiefling? Infernal Legacy ties in with power (I guess; it still seems odd to me that the powers are tiered like they are) rather than age, so I suppose you could make that argument.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Racial abilities should not be tied to level. For one thing, it doesn't make any sense to have a "racial" ability that only a few special people get. And it creates a problem for dealing with NPC who don't have levels.
They have HD, which is roughly analogous, and CR, which gets used for similar purposes in calculating CR and such. Either option would work.

As for racial abilities being more developed... it happens all the time. Base Tieflings get more powerful spells at higher levels. Deep Gnomes can take Svirfneblin Magic at 4th and get more powerful spells. It's all about latent potential. I mean, you're quite literally dealing with beings with magical, otherworldly ancestry here.

[JoeJ]

They have HD, which is roughly analogous, and CR, which gets used for similar purposes in calculating CR and such. Either option would work.

Hit dice and CR are two different numbers, neither of which equate to class level. (Example: Acolyte is CR 1/4, 2 hit dice, and has the magic of a 1st level spellcaster, but with the slots of a 2nd level spellcaster.)


As for racial abilities being more developed... it happens all the time. Base Tieflings get more powerful spells at higher levels. Deep Gnomes can take Svirfneblin Magic at 4th and get more powerful spells. It's all about latent potential. I mean, you're quite literally dealing with beings with magical, otherworldly ancestry here.

The fact that something does happen does not mean that it should happen.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The fact that something does happen does not mean that it should happen.
You said "this doesn't happen," I pointed out that it does. The OP wants something like this; telling them they're wrong isn't helpful. Isn't the point of 5e to be customizable?

[JoeJ]

You said "this doesn't happen," I pointed out that it does. The OP wants something like this; telling them they're wrong isn't helpful. Isn't the point of 5e to be customizable?

What? No I didn't. I said racial abilities shouldn't scale with level, not that they never do.

The OP asked for advice. My advice is not to do what they and a couple of others have suggested.

[. Shadowblade .]

I dont feel that Winged Tieflings need nerfing ...err fixing

just my opinion

[HoarsHalberd]

What? No I didn't. I said racial abilities shouldn't scale with level, not that they never do.

The OP asked for advice. My advice is not to do what they and a couple of others have suggested.

I mean I agree they shouldn't do it. But your point makes no sense. There is no reason racial abilities shouldn't scale with level since they represent experience using ones abilities in combat. That tiefling who has never been pushed to his limits and beyond might never unlock a great deal of his magical potential, whilst the one who routinely puts his body and mind through the stresses of combat could unlock darkness before anyone in his family knew their line had it in them.

[Markoff Chainey]

I personally like both suggestions for the progression - the 3.5 version and the custom one...

That said, I think it is a bit weird to imagine a race with wings like the bird-people (that I will not even try to pronounce) and imagine that they all live in some high mountain nest, but only a handful of them can actually fly... I think that was meant by the OP that it is weird that racial abilities scale...

This image changes with winged Tieflings a bit because they do not form communities that depend on their flying ability and not every Tiefling is supposed to be able to fly.

In my opinion there is a subtle difference between racial abilities like spells that in the common game world change with "experience" / "power level" or other abilities that someone would take for granted upon looking at someone else. - a bird is supposed to fly, a fish can swim and a human has 5 senses she can access from birth. It might be a good idea from a mechanical point of view to scale them, yet it might destroy the picture of the game world for some people. That's basically the same problem why some races are not accessible for players because scaling e.g. a giant down to a level 1 player char does not make any sense... (the dragonborn are a cool example that it might work nonetheless)

So there is no simple right or wrong if it should be scaled or not. Scaling it entails the problem that some races who are obviously dependent on that ability will have some problems with their story line, not scaling gives an ability into players hands that is very powerful for their level for quite some time.

[Joe the Rat]

I'd keep it simple - escalating move power, skip the tricks.

My initial take:
1: feather fall, double leap distance
3 / 5: glide (30' per 5' drop)
5 / 7: Flight: con mod rounds (min 1) per short rest
.... : At will flight
.... : Flight with Hover

[NewDM]

I'd just tell the player to choose another option. Wizard's of the Coast just didn't think this one through when they made it.

[Theodoxus]

I think WotC thought through just fine - the Aarakocra came out before the tiefling options. Both are powerful options for players, but they can be unbalancing (thus why they're outlawed for AL play).

As a DM, you're perfectly within your rights to adjudicate flight however you want. I had to create maneuverability rules for the flying tiefling in my game, as it didn't seem right that they had perfect flight: hovering, climbing and turning at no additional movement cost.

It takes a bit more work to grant flight at 1st level - natural counters should obviously be used, but not to the detriment of the concept. Yes, there are probably more bowmen in my encounters - but they're useful against ground troops as well. I don't give them sharpshooter though - so when the tiefling flies behind a tree for cover, they actually get use out of their tactics.

Whatever you decide, talk it over with anyone planning on flying - if they're thinking full flight at 1st and you're using a tiered approach, it might be a deal breaker for them, and they'll come up with a different concept... and your time and effort are worth less.

[xroads]

the balance for tiefling wings is way off. it can be worked around but it doesn't fit the system. it takes a lvl 14 ability and gives it to a lvl 1 character...

Just for curosities sake, when did the tieflings get wings? Is this something from a splatbook?

[RickAllison]

Just for curosities sake, when did the tieflings get wings? Is this something from a splatbook?

It's a variant from SCAG. It lets them switch the +2 for Dex and gives several options that include a 30 ft fly speed at the cost of the Infernal Legacy spells.

[Reaper34]

accually in this particular game i'm the player with the tiefling. since i also dm another game with the same group, i figured i'd work on the fix and let the dm for this adventure focus on making it interesting. we're used to working together so most fixes i come up with are ok. but what ever we decide on will probably set the precidence for the group. so i waant to get it right. i also really want to play this caracter.

[JoeJ]

accually in this particular game i'm the player with the tiefling. since i also dm another game with the same group, i figured i'd work on the fix and let the dm for this adventure focus on making it interesting. we're used to working together so most fixes i come up with are ok. but what ever we decide on will probably set the precidence for the group. so i waant to get it right. i also really want to play this caracter.

My advice, then, if you haven't played the character yet or if you have and there weren't any problems, is to change nothing. See how it works as written, with the explicit understanding that if any problems arise you'll discuss them together and work out a solution.

[manny2510]

Honestly my response to "invulnerable" players is to kill their allies first.