Fixing the Elemental Savant PrC

[fikoantunes]

So I finally took some time to analyze better this PrC. My conclusion was the same as everybody: it’s completely underpowered, clearly suffering from a lazy design.

From all the fixes it deserves, the main issue is the loss of versatility. Back in the 3.0 version of this class you would get better at one kind of energy by forfeiting the opposite one (a fire-based caster would drop ice spells, for example). Now at 3.5 you are stucked to 1 kind of elemental damage forever, which is a terrible thing at mid/high levels. It doesn’t even make the sense having the Energy Substitution Feat as a pre-requisite, as you would be casting just one kind of energy forever…

So here’s my idea to fix this:

An Elemental Savant would gain the strengths of his chosen type of energy… But he would be able to cast other energy spells at a lower power. He dedicates so much of his time to one energy that others get weaker. Using the Elemental Savant progression, would be like this: at each “+1 energy focus” of its class (which increases the DC for his chosen energy spells), other energy types would become -1 Caster Level. A 10th level Fire Elemental Savant would have +2 energy focus on Fire Spells, but would cast all other types of energy spells at -2 CL. The penalty could be applied to the DC instead of CL… but that would make the PrC too weak I guess.

Apart that, I would also try to improve the class 8/10 spellcasting progression to full progression. To compensate I would remove the mandatory transformation into a outsider, removing some immunities (and also due to roleplaying issues: as a DM I like “mortal” PCs, not alien kinds who don’t eat or sleep).

Any thoughts?

P.S.: I know the class would be below the expectations for an optimized arcane caster, but if I my players want something better they wouldn’t even look at a energy-based blaster build :smallwink:

[KillingAScarab]

In the core Pathfinder book, the sorcerer class was given multiple bloodlines (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines) to choose from, one of which was elemental (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/elemental-bloodline). It works similarly to elemental savant, but it lets you choose when to perform energy substitution for your favored kind. It and other bloodlines have a capstone ability which provide a number of benefits of another creature type without changing your type. The Pathfinder version of dragon disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple) uses the dragon bloodline mechanics and expands upon them. If you don't mind back-porting and there isn't something equivalent to elemental savant already as a prestige class, it might be worth looking to the relation between the dragon bloodline and dragon disciple as a template.

[Cosi]

An Elemental Savant would gain the strengths of his chosen type of energy… But he would be able to cast other energy spells at a lower power. He dedicates so much of his time to one energy that others get weaker.

I would drop the penalty for everything except his opposed element (i.e. a Fire Servant would get no penalty to Air spells, but a penalty to Water spells). He's already relatively better with Fire spells (or whatever), no reason for him to make his other spells weaker.


The penalty could be applied to the DC instead of CL… but that would make the PrC too weak I guess.

Honestly, there aren't that many spells that have elemental descriptors and care about DC. But yes, the DC penalty would be too harsh by far.


Apart that, I would also try to improve the class 8/10 spellcasting progression to full progression. To compensate I would remove the mandatory transformation into a outsider, removing some immunities (and also due to roleplaying issues: as a DM I like “mortal” PCs, not alien kinds who don’t eat or sleep).

I don't think you need to "compensate" for bumping it to full casting at all. If caster PrCs are full progression, the game is more interesting because PCs can be weird and interesting classes like Bonded Summoners or Acolytes of the Skin without losing real power.

I feel pretty much the opposite way about the flavor (transcending mortal limitations is something that I think high level PCs should do), but each to his own.


P.S.: I know the class would be below the expectations for an optimized arcane caster, but if I my players want something better they wouldn’t even look at a energy-based blaster build :smallwink:

If its full casting, that doesn't really matter much. Yes, the player won't be an Incantatrix, but he can still cast level appropriate spells when he doesn't want to blast, so who really cares? With full casting, and no ban on off-element spells, the class is a strict (if minor) power upgrade that people can take when interested without feeling bad. You could make it better or more specialized to specific elements, but there's no real reason to.

[Troacctid]

I think your fix is fine. I'd probably add some way to penetrate energy resistance.

Honestly, the class's biggest problem is that it's just kind of boring and marginal. It doesn't do very much.

[fikoantunes]

I took some time to analyze the aforementioned Pathfinder material. It’s curious to noticed it fails via the same errors of the 3.5 Elemental Savant: assume that it’s mandatory to turn into something outsider/alien to wield capstone elemental powers (elemental bloodline) or by making bad trades that makes the caster underpowered (bad spellcasting progression to pay for a bite attack and natural armor – case of the dragon disciple). The good aspect it was pointed out (the bloodline being able to chose the energy type at the moment of casting) it’s “too sorcerer” to be universal for both wizard and sorcerers. I wonder why they all follow this path.

What I’m looking for the Elemental Savant fix is to make just a PrC specialized in one kind of energy. Like a School Specialist is for Wizard: it has a focused side but it doesn’t lose it’s flexibility neither turns the character into something nonhuman. I’m still wonder if the fix I proposed at the top topic is good enough…:smallwink:

[fikoantunes]

I think your fix is fine. I'd probably add some way to penetrate energy resistance.

Honestly, the class's biggest problem is that it's just kind of boring and marginal. It doesn't do very much.

Thanks for the reply. A way for dealing with energy resistance would be the small penalty of using other kind of energy at a lower CL like I proposed – it would be just a small problem instead of a huge one in the case of the original, one-kind-of-energy-slave Elemental Savant.

And you're right, it's a marginal PrC. But – similar to some underpowered Gish builds and most TWF builds – many player's do love it.

[Faily]

or by making bad trades that makes the caster underpowered (bad spellcasting progression to pay for a bite attack and natural armor – case of the dragon disciple).

Well, considering it advances the Draconic bloodline (so no loss there apart from a few spell-levels), in exchange for becoming the most BEEFCAKE sorcerer ever, I find it to be a fair trade on Dragon Disciple. Increases to physical stats like Strength and Constitution, Natural Armor, also gaining the Wings which is flight at will from the Draconic Bloodline because of the stack, and tops it all off with delicious d12 HD.

We have a Dragon Disciple Sorcerer in one our campaigns, and he's beefier than the Fighter. Sure the Fighter rocks a sweeter AC normally (when the Sorc isn't buffed up with spells), but the Fighter and the Sorc are both the frontliners of the party.

[Darth Ultron]

I'd add an irresistible energy ability after 5th level, like blistering spell or uttercold feats. The feats that are so hot/cold that they over come protections.

Bonus metamagic feats would be nice.

[fikoantunes]

I If its full casting, that doesn't really matter much. Yes, the player won't be an Incantatrix, but he can still cast level appropriate spells when he doesn't want to blast, so who really cares? With full casting, and no ban on off-element spells, the class is a strict (if minor) power upgrade that people can take when interested without feeling bad. You could make it better or more specialized to specific elements, but there's no real reason to.

Yeah, you’re right. if the player is experienced with optimization, just being full casting is enough. But that’s a good thing! Then this so called blaster-build won’t be a regular “one-tricky poney”. That’s good, indeed. I’ll bear that in mind when working with the fix.

[fikoantunes]

I'd add an irresistible energy ability after 5th level, like blistering spell or uttercold feats. The feats that are so hot/cold that they over come protections.

Bonus metamagic feats would be nice.

Both you and Troacctid mentioned the issue of dealing with energy resistance. You guys are giving me some ideas here... Let me work on them. I'll share with you soon :smallbiggrin:

[fikoantunes]

I'd add an irresistible energy ability after 5th level, like blistering spell or uttercold feats. The feats that are so hot/cold that they over come protections.

Bonus metamagic feats would be nice.

Both you and Troacctid mentioned the issue of dealing with energy resistance. You guys are giving me some ideas here... Let me work on them. I'll share with you soon :smallbiggrin:

[Fizban]

Searing Spell/Piercing Cold are the standard, allowing them with no level adjustment is the obvious fix. There's a cleric class that actually does do Piercing Cold for free on all spells (Winterhaunt of Iborghu). Mirror them for electricity and acid and you're fine. Or you could do something like cut resistance or immunity in half then add caster level, results in more damage on soft targets. Pulled that from a Tome of Radiance PrC I think.

Sorcerers can take the planar substitution level to reach 75% immunity penetration when combined with Searing/Piercing, layer on Consecrate if you want for even more.

[Ger. Bessa]

You should give nice things to keep the prc attractive (like an ability to bypass energy resistance) but no free metamagic of any kind (you 'might' restrict it to very 'elemental' ones like energy admixture, born of 3 thunders and blistering spell) because even if it's not 'balance' you should not want to pick that class over wizard if what you want is not elemental spécialisation.

I'd give
*10/10 casting
*on the fly optionnnal elemental conversion. (For everyone)
*opposed element ban only OR gradual loss of CL for every other element (up to -5 on ten levels, but could be like the unseenseer's divination spell power at lv 2, 5, 8)

Pure bonus because the class has a lame feat tax, not interesting for people who don't care about fireball/etc and relevant for blasters wannabe.

Metamagic reduction would make this a must for blasters (but if the reduction is limited to [energy] spells (or specific feats), battlefield controllers will still prefer Incantatrix/Archmage master of shaping etc)

[fikoantunes]

So after all the feedback I had, I was able to develop a fix for the Elemental Savant PrC. Thank for everyone who contributed posting tips & hints on this thread!

[fikoantunes]

I will post the new PrC in a new thread, so it can be view from the first, alright? Just wait!

EDIT: It's done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482844-The-Elemental-Savant-%96-fixed-using-your-feedback)!

[Fizban]

Metamagic reduction would make this a must for blasters (but if the reduction is limited to [energy] spells (or specific feats), battlefield controllers will still prefer Incantatrix/Archmage master of shaping etc)
You are the only person who has implied general metamagic reduction.