Indispensable Magics over 4th Level

[Gildedragon]

For my next campaign I want to cap spellcasters to spells under 4th level; but before doing something so big I wondered if there were higher spells the party would need as they level into their teens, so as to construct them as rituals or artifact-level magic items.

[Cosi]

raise dead. break enchantment. Anything else that cures conditions. Also, if you don't want people to get 5th level spells, why not play E8?

[johnbragg]

For my next campaign I want to cap spellcasters to spells under 4th level; but before doing something so big I wondered if there were higher spells the party would need as they level into their teens, so as to construct them as rituals or artifact-level magic items.

Restoration, Raise Dead, Flesh To Stone. Neutralize Poison (non-Druid version). Atonement, Break Enchantment. LEsser Geas, Geas. Polymorph (Pathfinder Beast Shape I helps here.) Dismissal. Contact Other Plane.

Question: Why are you playing high-level D&D without high level spells?

If you want to play D&D without high-level spells, the thing to do is probably play E6.

[Gildedragon]

raise dead. break enchantment. Anything else that cures conditions. Also, if you don't want people to get 5th level spells, why not play E8?
Restoration, Raise Dead, Flesh To Stone. Neutralize Poison (non-Druid version). Atonement, Break Enchantment. LEsser Geas, Geas. Polymorph (Pathfinder Beast Shape I helps here.) Dismissal. Contact Other Plane.

Question: Why are you playing high-level D&D without high level spells?

If you want to play D&D without high-level spells, the thing to do is probably play E6.


Hit dice, allowing spell slots above 4/5 for metamagicized spells, allowing other classes abilities above 8th level
Also as to why: world building

Yes, I'd forgotten death-reverting spells.

[Troacctid]

raise dead. break enchantment. Anything else that cures conditions. Also, if you don't want people to get 5th level spells, why not play E8?

Question: Why are you playing high-level D&D without high level spells?

If you want to play D&D without high-level spells, the thing to do is probably play E6.
No, I'm definitely with OP on this one. Capping off spells at a max spell level (and leaving higher-level slots for metamagic) is better. Classes other than full casters exist too. Also, multiclassing is a thing.

I think your biggest problem with 4th level as the cap will be that clerics no longer get raise dead--you need a druid to cast reincarnate instead, and that could ruffle some feathers.

[Cosi]

No, I'm definitely with OP on this one. Capping off spells at a max spell level (and leaving higher-level slots for metamagic) is better. Classes other than full casters exist too. Also, multiclassing is a thing.

Off topic for this thread, but that argument is absurd. Punishing casters because non-casters fall behind is just a bad plan. If you're worried about imbalance, give people artifact swords or use Tome feats or classes.

[Nettlekid]

Teleportation of all sorts is a pretty big game changer. Dimension Door is still on the table, but for inter-city travel good old 5th level Teleport is what you'd need. Plane Shift too, especially when dealing with monsters that can get from one plane to another without the use of a spell (like an Ethereal Filcher) and you need to follow them.

Also True Seeing. Now Disguise/Alter Self can't be so easily ignored and illusions like Silent/Major image are much more viable at higher levels. And you need See Invisibility specifically to catch out invisible creatures.

[Troacctid]

Off topic for this thread, but that argument is absurd. Punishing casters because non-casters fall behind is just a bad plan. If you're worried about imbalance, give people artifact swords or use Tome feats or classes.

It's the rule I use in my games (although I usually stop at 5th or 6th level), and it's done good work for me. It's a simple, elegant solution to the overpoweredness of casters that reins them in without nerfing them into the ground, while also retaining the core gameplay that makes casters fun and appealing to play, and making the game a lot friendlier to theurges and partial-casting prestige classes. I'll stand by it.

[Anthrowhale]

Dispel Magic is inadequate in a game with higher caster levels.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability suddenly looks much better.

Powerful divinations can no longer advance the plot over obstacles.

Some prestige classes (archmage?) with high spell level requirements become inaccessible.

Fighter-with-AMF is no longer a thing.

It may be worth noting that an L4- spell limit does not do much to crimp a Mailman-style build.

[Bucky]

Lack of True Seeing might be a problem, unless you let Artificers craft True Seeing based items.

On the other hand, Break Enchantment eventually becomes available through the Bard and Paladin lists; Bards even get it only one level late compared to Wizards.

[zergling.exe]

Dispel Magic is inadequate in a game with higher caster levels.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability suddenly looks much better.

Powerful divinations can no longer advance the plot over obstacles.

Some prestige classes (archmage?) with high spell level requirements become inaccessible.

Fighter-with-AMF is no longer a thing.

It may be worth noting that an L4- spell limit does not do much to crimp a Mailman-style build.

5th+ level spell slots are still available just the spells native to them are not, so archmage would still be available and heighten defeats lesser globe of invulnerabily.

Info was added in post 4.

[Fizban]

No, I'm definitely with OP on this one. Capping off spells at a max spell level (and leaving higher-level slots for metamagic) is better. Classes other than full casters exist too. Also, multiclassing is a thing.

I think your biggest problem with 4th level as the cap will be that clerics no longer get raise dead--you need a druid to cast reincarnate instead, and that could ruffle some feathers.
One of the most sensible things I've heard you say, respect points up :smallbiggrin: (not sure if I've directly disagreed with you before but still).

That's basically what 5e did, in case anyone missed it. Massive restrictions on high level spells, most high level spells were kicked back even further eg: "Teleport" is actually more like "slowly return to a town I've visited before," while Actual Teleport is like 7th or 8th and you only get one base slot of those per day.

[ATHATH]

Teleportation of all sorts is a pretty big game changer. Dimension Door is still on the table, but for inter-city travel good old 5th level Teleport is what you'd need. Plane Shift too, especially when dealing with monsters that can get from one plane to another without the use of a spell (like an Ethereal Filcher) and you need to follow them.

Also True Seeing. Now Disguise/Alter Self can't be so easily ignored and illusions like Silent/Major image are much more viable at higher levels. And you need See Invisibility specifically to catch out invisible creatures.
Don't forget that Corpse Candle exists.