Casters I don't get, Spirit Shaman, Shaman and more

[CowardlyPaladin]

I'm going to run a Chinese themed game and I picked up Oriental Adventures and all of the casting classes are just boggling my mind. I mean, there is Shaman, which is different apparently from the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine, but I'm not sure how or whyApart from the 3.0 to 3.5 transition, what is the difference between the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine and the Shaman from Oriental Adventures? For that matter, how are either of these classes different from the Cleric and Druid apart from being able to talk to spirits/elementals/fey?

Actually this thread is a general question of how certain non core caster classes work, because I am equally confused about the specific of the Shujenga from Oriental Adventures/Complete Divine and the Wu Jeng from Oriental Adventures. What makes them difference? I know that all of these classes are all roughly tier 2, but why? The specifics are kinda unclear to me, but i'm mechanically illiterate, so that is to be expected anybody care to explain it to me?
thanks

[Bobby Baratheon]

Spirit Shamans are different than regular shamans (and clerics and druids) in a couple of ways.
-One, they're basically ghostbusters. A lot of their abilities hinge around being able to beat up on "spirits", which IIRC include fey, elementals, incorporeal undead, and things of that ilk.
-Two, they have a very different (and in fact unique) spellcasting mechanic. Spirit shamans get to choose their spells known each day from the druid list, then act as spontaneous casters with that spell list.
-The flavor is somewhat different; spirit shamans have a bit more of a mystical element to them than regular shamans.
-Spirit Shamans (IMO) have more useful and flavorful class abilities than the shaman does, and clerics have no class abilities whatsoever outside of domains, spells and turn/rebuke undead. Wildshape obviously trumps here, but Spirit Shamans IMO are a pretty balanced class. They're rarely likely to just take over an encounter unless it plays to their strengths, and the unique mechanic of picking their spells known list each day makes them fun and dynamic. A very well designed class, in my books. It can always contribute, and in it's specialized area it kicks butt.

I don't know a ton about wu jen and shugenja, but wu jen are sort of like weird, somewhat nerfed wizards. They have their own spell list, and I believe they have to take on various "taboos" as they get higher in level, which are basically enforced personality quirks that range from somewhat strange to downright peculiar.

Shugenja are kind of weird as well, in that they use pseudo-scrolls as divine foci, and they are much more limited in what they can cast. They have a basic list, and then they have to choose a specialty that tends to confine them to one or two roles within the party. Fire Shugenja are blasters, Water Shugenja are healers, etc etc.

Again, my knowledge of Wu Jen and Shugenja is pretty limited. Check out the handbooks on minmax boards (just google the minmax boards handbook index) for more detailed information.

[Elderand]

Shamans are a mix between cleric and druid. Mostly they're cleric with worse armor and weapon, a spell list that is like teh core cleric spell list with a few druid type spell thrown in, an animal companion, the ability to tell if something's ethereal and the paladin cha to saves.

They aren't as good as standard cleric or druid due to their spell list having never expended compared to the other two but they aren't worse than core only cleric or druid spell wise.

[CowardlyPaladin]

OK so the Spirit Shaman and Shaman are totally different classes with similar names? Ok so...can you explain this Spirit Shaman casting to me a bit more, I don't quite grasp the specifics.


Also is the Shaman basically just a Cleric Druid (isn't that just a druid?) and nothing else

What do these two classes offer to a game that Cleric and Druid don't apart from ghostbusting?

[Nettlekid]

Spirit Shaman casting is like a combination of Sorcerer casting and Druid casting. They have a list of spells known in the same way that Sorcerers have a list of spells known, though off of the Druid list rather than the Sorc/Wiz list. They can cast these without preparing them in advance, so if they know Entangle and Goodberry and Longstrider they don't have to choose at the start of the day how many of each they want to cast. The big difference is that every day, the Spirit Shaman can completely change its spells known, much like a Druid or Cleric prays for spells every day. Except instead of preparing spell slots, you're changing the selection of spells that you have access to. So each day it can spontaneously cast a number of Druidic spells, chosen at the beginning of the day, in whatever numbers its spell slots can provide.

One extra-unique quirk is that spells enhanced by metamagic have to be chosen separately than their regular counterpart. If you wanted Fire Seeds and Empowered Fire Seeds, you'd have to use a 6th level spell known and an 8th level spell known.

The spirit-based class features are just its own thing, and its a very niche set of abilities, but if it comes up (in a ghost or Fey-centric game for instance) then they're also extremely powerful.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Spirit Shaman casting is like a combination of Sorcerer casting and Druid casting. They have a list of spells known in the same way that Sorcerers have a list of spells known, though off of the Druid list rather than the Sorc/Wiz list. They can cast these without preparing them in advance, so if they know Entangle and Goodberry and Longstrider they don't have to choose at the start of the day how many of each they want to cast. The big difference is that every day, the Spirit Shaman can completely change its spells known, much like a Druid or Cleric prays for spells every day. Except instead of preparing spell slots, you're changing the selection of spells that you have access to. So each day it can spontaneously cast a number of Druidic spells, chosen at the beginning of the day, in whatever numbers its spell slots can provide.

One extra-unique quirk is that spells enhanced by metamagic have to be chosen separately than their regular counterpart. If you wanted Fire Seeds and Empowered Fire Seeds, you'd have to use a 6th level spell known and an 8th level spell known.

The spirit-based class features are just its own thing, and its a very niche set of abilities, but if it comes up (in a ghost or Fey-centric game for instance) then they're also extremely powerful.

Bearing in mind that I am unbelievably stupid, I don't get what you mean by they can change their spells? Like they can choose from the whole spell list what spells they know, like a super Sorcerer?

[torrasque666]

Bearing in mind that I am unbelievably stupid, I don't get what you mean by they can change their spells? Like they can choose from the whole spell list what spells they know, like a super Sorcerer?
Basically, yeah. They have their spell list, and they select their spells known from it like a sorcerer does. The main difference is that they select all their spells known at the start of the day rather than one at a time at level up.

[Coidzor]

Shaman are kung fu shaman with their own spell list synthesized from the core and OA Druid and Cleric spell lists. And an animal companion.

Spirit Shaman are spirit-themed, casting-only druids that spontaneously cast a small selection of the druid list hat they get to change each time they prep spells.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Basically, yeah. They have their spell list, and they select their spells known from it like a sorcerer does. The main difference is that they select all their spells known at the start of the day rather than one at a time at level up.

Huh, how does that affect their power.


As for standard Shaman, does it have anything that makes it distinct in D&D? Like is it worth keeping? It seems like a druid with bad kungfu

[Fizban]

Shamans get multiple domains, as well as some cleric spells that aren't on the druid list, just gotta go through them and compare, and access to the Shaman-only spells. There aren't very many but there are a couple that are really good, like the one that lets you take half damage by using a voodoo doll of yourself and a reverse Shield Other effect.

[Gnaeus]

Huh, how does that affect their power.


Not as much as you would think. They are definitely strong, because they are full casters, and all full casters>all non full casters. But they have a lot less spells known than a sorcerer, and the druid list, spell for spell, is a lot less versatile than the sorcerer list. Worse, the druid list is full of spells that are only really good if you are a rampaging bear or have a rampaging bear pet, which the SS do not get. That isn't to say they are weak, they aren't. But they aren't nearly as strong as "sorcerer who repicks his spells every day" would sound.

[Florian]

I'm going to run a Chinese themed game and I picked up Oriental Adventures and all of the casting classes are just boggling my mind. I mean, there is Shaman, which is different apparently from the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine, but I'm not sure how or whyApart from the 3.0 to 3.5 transition, what is the difference between the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine and the Shaman from Oriental Adventures? For that matter, how are either of these classes different from the Cleric and Druid apart from being able to talk to spirits/elementals/fey?

Actually this thread is a general question of how certain non core caster classes work, because I am equally confused about the specific of the Shujenga from Oriental Adventures/Complete Divine and the Wu Jeng from Oriental Adventures. What makes them difference? I know that all of these classes are all roughly tier 2, but why? The specifics are kinda unclear to me, but i'm mechanically illiterate, so that is to be expected anybody care to explain it to me?
thanks

It´s pretty much important to accept that "oriental" classes are based on (westernized) "oriental" folklore, myths and legends, while most core classes are based on "western" cultural counterparts.

Shugenja and Wu Jen are good examples, because they are closely modeled after their respective japanese and chinese concepts, especially in areas where "western" classes simply would not fit thematically and based on the folklore.

Stuff like the Spirit Shaman might have some thematically overlap, but they were not designed with a specific setting in mind, so they don´t really matter here.

[Komatik]

Spirit Shamans can also play pretty repetitively because they don't have the versatility a Sorcerer has within one day. With more spells retrieved they'd have a better chance to pick more of the highly thematic odds and ends that litter the druid list while being somewhat curtailed by the lesser list and lack of supporting class features.

Would also be a great way to learn how to play a caster with minimum bookkeeping and fuss because of the ability to rectify mistakes day to day.

[Pluto!]

OA Shamans are really strong. I wrote a handbook ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?248262-Shaman-Handbook-Oriental-Adventures) about them a few years ago (unfortunately, the Spirits index got mangled by forum updates).

They get Turn Undead, Shape Change, Giant Size, Divine Grace, Divine Power, Polymorph and an animal companion, all in the same build, plus a stronger version of the Planar Ally spell line and bonus feats for good measure.

They're distinct from Clerics because they get kung fu abilities and a more "nature"/elementally themed spell list. They're distinct from Druids because they have domains and some typically Cleric-exclusive tricks and spells involving planar travel.

They do have some wonky elements, though - the SNA spell line without Magic Fang, an ambiguous translation of 3.0's Animal Companion mechanic, the specific definition of "Spirit" only existing in another source, and a couple questions on the Spirit Ally HD caps.

They're more unique than a Wu Jen, who is basically a Wizard with a different spell list, but probably less than Shugenja, which is like a Divine Sorcerer with domains and a really rigid spells known progression from a reasonably distinct list.

I would actually call Wu Jen and OA Shamans Tier 1, since they essentially are core Clerics and Wizards, and Shugenja Tier 3, since they have a rigid spell list with few gamebreaking options.

[Eloel]

Spirit Shaman is a Druid that;

Doesn't get Animal Companion
Doesn't get Wildshape
Is MAD on casting (Wis/Cha)
Has significantly less different spells per day (level 1 Spirit Shaman has to choose 1 1st level spell every day. Druid has 3 including SNA)
Can cast those spells in any combination they want
Can cast more spells per day
Gets a couple flavorful abilities (that add up to roughly a couple spells obtained waay after they're relevant)


All of this combined, they're low tier 2 (Druid list sucks compared to the Sorc/Wiz or Cleric ones)

[Zaq]

Spirit Shamans are really hard to assign to the tier list because they play wildly differently at different levels. My actual in-game experience with Spirit Shamans involved a level 5-6ish game where my buddy played one and a level 14-16ish game where I played one.

I argue that a high-level SS is easily T1. They have full access to one of the Big Three spell lists. They can change their spell layout every day. That alone pretty much defines T1 (more or less), but what's more, they feel T1. They can prepare for nearly anything. They can take care of a really wide variety of situations and problems. They can afford a great mix of utility and offense and other spells. If they get caught in a bad situation, they can have a better solution tomorrow. My Spirit Shaman was easily the most powerful 3.5 character I've ever played, even when adjusting for character level. I'm not saying that they're in the upper echelon of T1 (a Druid is pretty clearly more powerful in general, just for the most obvious comparison), of course, but I still feel like full access to one of the Big Three spell lists with the ability to swap out spell load with a day's notice is pretty much good enough to be T1.

A low-level Spirit Shaman, on the other hand, really doesn't feel the same way. At low levels, they actually get a really tiny number of spells retrieved per level per day. Even compared to a Sorcerer, they don't get that many unique spells on any given day, and that actually is kind of hard to overcome at low levels. They're still full casters, but they get so few spells available that it's hard to cover all your bases and still have room to play around. By the time you get a bread-and-butter offensive spell or two, a utility or defensive spell here and there, and maybe, maybe a spell that's specific to your situation (whether it's something that's appropriate for the day's adventure, something that fits your character's theme or backstory that you want to play up, or anything like that), you're pretty much out of spells retrieved. You just don't have enough flexibility to do everything you want to without making major sacrifices that you're definitely going to notice. Now, from a game design perspective, it's not actually a terrible thing that a caster class would have to make choices and sacrifices, but the point is that you don't feel like an all-powerful T1 god when you're a level 6 SS.

I can't point to a single breakpoint where the SS stops feeling limited and starts feeling like they can handle an entire day's problems and then some. Part of it is just having more spell levels to play with and therefore more unique spells retrieved. Part of it is having access to spell access granted by things other than your base SS casting (whether that's domain access through a PrC, spells granted by feats like Spontaneous Summoner, spells from items like wands and staves, or spells pseudo-known through items like the Raiment of the Four), which of course increases (or more accurately can increase) as you have access to more character resources. But however you slice it, I feel like a high-level SS is a very different beast from a low-level one, even more so than most other classes.

As far as Shugenja and Wu Jen go, I haven't ever seen either played in an actual game, so I defer to people who've seen them in real play, but I'll offer my opinion nonetheless. A Wu Jen is basically a Wizard with a weird spell list. They have a couple minor class features, but they really end up being defined by their spells, and since they use basically exactly the same mechanic as the Wizard (INT-based prepared casting from a spellbook), it's fair to boil them down to being basically Wizards with different spells. The Wu Jen's weakness is that they didn't get a spell list that expanded with every new splatbook. They have their base spell list from Complete Arcane, they have a decent update from Complete Mage, and then they get maybe one or two extra spells here and there (I think Dragon Magic has a few?), but that's about it. And their spell list isn't awful, but it's not really as good as the Wizard's spell list (even if you're comparing CArc-only Wu Jen to PHB-only Wizard). They do get a lot of the standby spells that make Wizards powerful, but they don't get all of them. Look at the list of 2nd level WJ spells, for example; they get Alter Self and Rope Trick, which are both very useful, but they don't get Glitterdust, Web, or Mirror Image, three of the very strongest level 2 spells from the PHB. Now, does that mean that a Wu Jen isn't capable of contributing with 2nd level spells? Of course not. And it's not like a Wizard without Glitterdust isn't still powerful. But it's illustrative of the fact that Wu Jen are usually "like Wizards, but kinda worse."

From a metagame standpoint, the other thing with Wu Jen is that since they're so damn close to Wizards (from a fluff perspective, they're nearly identical, and they're really close from a crunch perspective as well), when you think about playing a Wu Jen, you constantly have to ask yourself why you wouldn't just play a Wizard. I mean, you can always choose to play a Wu Jen because you wanted to be a Wizard but only wanted to have great cosmic power instead of phenomenal cosmic power, but in general, since the baseline for a Wu Jen is "like a Wizard only worse," you kinda generally feel the need to differentiate yourself from a Wizard by using spells that Wu Jen get and Wizards don't. And the WJ-specific spells are—weird. Some of them are kinda interesting (Secret Signs, Magnetism), many of them are very niche (Heart Ripper, Snake Darts), a handful are basically "like Wizard spells but technically different" (Spirit Binding), some are thematically really cool but mechanically disappointing (Decapitating Scarf), and then there's a handful of ones that are kinda awkward if used as intended but can end up broken if they're abused (Body Outside Body, Transcend Mortality). Like everything else in the game, how good these are really depends on what you make of them. They can be fun. They can be disappointing. They're generally not better than what a Wizard would get at the same level (minus abuse, not that a Wizard can't abuse things), but they can be fun if you get the opportunity to be creative.

Overall, though, they're clearly full casters, but they're also clearly full casters from a nerfed list. They still get gamebreaking spells, but they don't have quite the same optimization ceiling that a well-played Wizard does.

Shugenja are really weird. They have a spell list that's even more limited than the Wu Jen's spell list, and what's worse, they have rules that constrain their spell choices more than nearly any other caster who gets to pick the majority of their spells. See, the Shugenja spell list is divided into four elements (air/earth/fire/water), and they have to pick one element as their primary element. This isn't necessarily the end of the world (Psions and Wizards specialize in schools, Wu Jen pick elemental specialties, etc.), but unlike other casters with a similar "pick a flavor" mechanic, Shugenja have two restrictions based on their element. First, they can't learn any spells of the opposite element (and that's chosen for them, unlike a specialist Wizard who can choose to ban schools they don't really like much), and second, half of their spells known have to come from their chosen element. The no-opposite-element restriction is bad, but it's the fact that the bulk of their spells have to come from their chosen element that really constrains them. No spontaneous caster really feels like they know enough spells, but when half the spells you know have to come from a relatively narrow selection, you really struggle to cover all your bases and not end up as a one-trick pony. So on the one hand, Shugenja are 9th level spontaneous casters who get to pick their own spells (which you'd think would put them in T2 with the Sorcerer, Favored Soul, and Psion), but on the other hand, every spell has a really high opportunity cost for them, and it's really hard for them to end up with a good mix of utility spells to take care of everything they want to do (which I would say makes them feel more like Shadowcasters, even though Shadowcasters have a lot of different problems that Shugenja don't have). The fact that the Shugenja spell list barely got any expansions at all (there's a couple in Complete Champion, and that's basically it) adds insult to injury.

[Elderand]

Spirit Shaman is a Druid that;

Doesn't get Animal Companion
Doesn't get Wildshape
Is MAD on casting (Wis/Cha)
Has significantly less different spells per day (level 1 Spirit Shaman has to choose 1 1st level spell every day. Druid has 3 including SNA)
Can cast those spells in any combination they want
Can cast more spells per day
Gets a couple flavorful abilities (that add up to roughly a couple spells obtained waay after they're relevant)


All of this combined, they're low tier 2 (Druid list sucks compared to the Sorc/Wiz or Cleric ones)

Except that's not how tiers work. Spirit shaman might be bottom of the barrel for tier 1 but it's still tier 1. Access to the entire druid spell list is enough to put them in tier 1.

[Eloel]

Except that's not how tiers work. Spirit shaman might be bottom of the barrel for tier 1 but it's still tier 1. Access to the entire druid spell list is enough to put them in tier 1.

The druid list is only slightly more powerful than, say, the Beguiler list. And getting 1 spell out of any spell level you gain for 3 whole levels is just pathetic. Tier 1 is defined as "tier 2, but versatile". Spirit Shaman is anything but versatile.

[AnonymousPepper]

The Druid list is not weak by any stretch. It has tons of utility (including teleport options), CC literally everywhere (especially at low levels), heals if you need them, the spectacular Summon Nature's Ally series (aka the better version of Summon Monster, and Ring of the Beast to make it even better, plus Greenbound Summoning and Ashbound ayy lmao), and even really good blasting options (Cloudburst + Call Lightning/Call Lightning Storm and SNA for Storm Elementals are both better than any blast you get off the Cleric list, and better than most Wizard options short of the very best like Orb of Force and Avasculate).

Just because it doesn't have some of the absolutely gamebreaking tools Sorc/Wiz gets (Wish, Time Stop, etc.) does not mean it's "barely better than Beguiler."

And Spirit Shaman casting is basically PF Arcanist casting, which is far and away the best casting mechanic. The absolute only limitation is the weaker unique spells per day.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Whati s arcanist casting?


Ok so what I am getting from this thread is


Spirit Shaman is a unique mechanically distinct interesting enough class that it should be kept, possibly modified


Shunjenga is way to limited, but has some potential, possibly taking away their restrictions.

Wu Jen is basically just a weird wizard, so I am either going to scrap them unless I can think of a way to fix them. Mabye I will just give them Pathfinder Wordcasting


And OE Shaman.....seems redundant.

Is that roughly correct?

[CowardlyPaladin]

actually eggs i'm reading your Shaman handbook and in addition to enjoying the fantastic pictures, I have two questions

Firstly, does the Shaman have a unique role in the party that no other class can fill? Like mechanically does the shaman offer enough to be worth offering as class (assuming Spirit Shaman is also in the game)

Secondly, lore wise, would this class work better as a spell casting martial artist rather than a shaman?

[Zaq]

Whati s arcanist casting?


Ok so what I am getting from this thread is


Spirit Shaman is a unique mechanically distinct interesting enough class that it should be kept, possibly modified


Shunjenga is way to limited, but has some potential, possibly taking away their restrictions.

Wu Jen is basically just a weird wizard, so I am either going to scrap them unless I can think of a way to fix them. Mabye I will just give them Pathfinder Wordcasting


And OE Shaman.....seems redundant.

Is that roughly correct?

No comment on OA Shaman (I've really never looked hard at them), but yeah, I'm with you on Spirit Shaman and Wu Jen (you could just let Wizards learn Wu Jen spells, though if there's one thing the Wizard doesn't need, it's access to more spell options).

I have mixed feelings about the Shugenja and what, if anything, should be done to fix it (or if it should be just ignored as a lost cause). A big problem with the Shugenja from a design standpoint is that there's nothing actually unique about them except their unnecessary limitations. They don't do anything unique (their Sense Elements ability is so limited that even the example in the book admits that it's useless), and they don't have any advantages that someone else doesn't do better. I mean, they have access to a couple spells that are usually a little bit annoying to get as divine spells, but not really that many (about the only trick they get is getting access to Hexer; the Archivist generally does it better even if that Archivist can't use the Shugenja list as a source of spells, if that makes sense), but there's nothing that makes them stand out from Favored Souls or Sorcerers. If that were their only flaw, then they'd just be another class, but the fact that they don't do anything unique AND the fact that they have annoying and arbitrary limitations makes me feel like they need a lot of work to be able to justify their continued existence.

If you want them to occupy a niche in your world that can't be occupied by a Favored Soul or a Sorcerer, then you need to do something to make them stand out. In a class-based system where there's theoretically no cost to choose to be a Sorcerer versus choosing to be a Shugenja, then what makes them stand out has to be a benefit instead of a drawback (or at least it needs to primarily be a benefit even if it contains elements that serve as drawbacks). And no, Sense Elements isn't even close to enough. What kind of feature could they have that would make them stand out, though? That depends on how much homebrew you want to use and exactly how much work you want to put into it (in addition to what your desired power level is). But right now there's basically no character concept that makes more sense as a Shugenja than as a carefully fluffed Sorcerer or Favored Soul (maaaaaybe if you need to be divine for some reason but can't stand the idea of being tied to a deity, but even then, that's a mechanical consideration that's rooted in fluff more than anything else), so even if you relax the Shugenja's limitations, they still don't have anything that makes them stand out and makes them interesting.

[Pluto!]

Shaman, Druid and Cleric have a lot of overlap. There's no way around that

It has a lot to add to a party in the same way that both of the other two big Divine casters do - like a Druid, it adds 2-5 bodies to the battlefield each fight and has the capability of being a combat beast itself, on top of noncombat problemsolving.

But if you're asking if there's a huge difference between a party including a Shaman and a party including a Druid instead, then no, there's really not.

I really enjoy running Shaman just because more options is usually a good thing and because the class is both an unusual take on a familiar skillset/role and a powerful option to play with, but if you're trying to whittle down to the minimum number of classes for simplicity's sake, it would make sense if Shaman got the axe - it does have some edition conversion hiccups and unfamiliarity for many players while alternatives like straight Druid are easier to just plug in and run.

As far as focusing on the mystic angle or the martial artist side, I would stress the mystic. The class is a more capable Diviner/Summoner straight out of the box than it is a Monk - The Kung fu thing can work, but when you have the Rogue's combat chassis, you need more work (usually meaning one of a couple specific domains or a couple specific feats outside your class list) to jump into the front lines full-time.

(Law or Knowledge Devotion+Minor Shapeshift might even be enough to get your numbers to the necessary levels, but given the incentives to boost both Wisdom and Charisma, the entire Divine Metamagic: Persist package is probably more likely to get good results).

[CowardlyPaladin]

No comment on OA Shaman (I've really never looked hard at them), but yeah, I'm with you on Spirit Shaman and Wu Jen (you could just let Wizards learn Wu Jen spells, though if there's one thing the Wizard doesn't need, it's access to more spell options).

I have mixed feelings about the Shugenja and what, if anything, should be done to fix it (or if it should be just ignored as a lost cause). A big problem with the Shugenja from a design standpoint is that there's nothing actually unique about them except their unnecessary limitations. They don't do anything unique (their Sense Elements ability is so limited that even the example in the book admits that it's useless), and they don't have any advantages that someone else doesn't do better. I mean, they have access to a couple spells that are usually a little bit annoying to get as divine spells, but not really that many (about the only trick they get is getting access to Hexer; the Archivist generally does it better even if that Archivist can't use the Shugenja list as a source of spells, if that makes sense), but there's nothing that makes them stand out from Favored Souls or Sorcerers. If that were their only flaw, then they'd just be another class, but the fact that they don't do anything unique AND the fact that they have annoying and arbitrary limitations makes me feel like they need a lot of work to be able to justify their continued existence.

If you want them to occupy a niche in your world that can't be occupied by a Favored Soul or a Sorcerer, then you need to do something to make them stand out. In a class-based system where there's theoretically no cost to choose to be a Sorcerer versus choosing to be a Shugenja, then what makes them stand out has to be a benefit instead of a drawback (or at least it needs to primarily be a benefit even if it contains elements that serve as drawbacks). And no, Sense Elements isn't even close to enough. What kind of feature could they have that would make them stand out, though? That depends on how much homebrew you want to use and exactly how much work you want to put into it (in addition to what your desired power level is). But right now there's basically no character concept that makes more sense as a Shugenja than as a carefully fluffed Sorcerer or Favored Soul (maaaaaybe if you need to be divine for some reason but can't stand the idea of being tied to a deity, but even then, that's a mechanical consideration that's rooted in fluff more than anything else), so even if you relax the Shugenja's limitations, they still don't have anything that makes them stand out and makes them interesting.

Maybe the original source could help, any Legend of the Five rings fans know how to boost your games signature class*? I"m sure that there are some things in that game that could make it feel unique.

As for Wu Jen, i'm thinking of giving them the Wordcrafter style from Pathfinder using hte Wizard/Sorcerer spelllist and then giving them their unique spells as something like a personal domain. How does that sound?

OE shaman seems like it would be best if I just gave their unique spells and powers to Spirit Shaman. Unless there are some third party SHaman classes people like (does the Spirit Shaman's ability to choose its spelllist resemble the Magister's from Arcana Evolved?)



*yes I did imply that a Japanese Shinto priest was invented by a western RPG company

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since everyone's addressing the mechanics, let me take a swing at the flavor.

Shaman and spirit shaman are both based on certain eastern religious traditions. They're moddled after the wandering priests and monks of Shinto, Bhuddist, and (I think) Hindi tales of their mythological forebearers. This includes the idea that the power from their spells comes from the animistic spirits of the world itself and from the grace of their ancestors' spirits rather than from individual or small pantheons of nigh-omnipotent gods. They are also mechanically distinct enough from one another and from the cleric for it to be well worth keeping even if the flavor doesn't do it for you.

Shugenja is based on a more animistic tradtion that predates the more formalized faiths that the shamans represent. It's calling directly on the spirits of the four elements to draw power. Look to eastern tales of wise men with strange powers and alchemist scholars. Mechanically it fits in a place between arcane and divine spellcasting tropes since it was intended to fill both roles in the setting for which it was designed.

Wu-jen is based on the old tales of witches and wielders of strange and fell powers in the orient. They behave strangely to appease the spirits for their strange powers because they enter into more of a partnership with them than the relationship of veneration and service offered by shamans and shugenga. In return they get some reasonably unique tricks. Mechanically they have some distinct features that set them apart from the wizard, including a few spells that don't appear on any other arcane list. Their companion spirit can become quite potent if you sink a couple feats into it.

Compare these to the core, western classes.

The cleric is a servant of his chosen god and follows a dogmatic religious structure (yes, even the chaotic ones, albeit more loosely). This touches on relatively modern, western monotheistic ideas for its inspiration, the major differences being that there are many more competing traditions than in the real world and those largely acknowledge that theirs, while still being the "best" god, isn't the only god.

The druid is based very specifically on the tales surrounding the celtic druid tradition. Little is known about it with certainty beyond it having a very strong tie to nature so that's what the class got. Its almost a direct worship of nature rather than of any gods or spirits related to the concept of nature.

Wizards are based on the eastern european and near-eastern notions of wise men and learned scholars gleaning supernatural power by learning things that common men were not meant to know and couldn't handle learning without going mad. They often become a touch insane and/or power hungry in the process in those tales. Some become advisors to people in power, aiding them in circumstances where their arcane* knowledge is required because of strange happenings or to protect them from the curses, hexes, and ill-tidings of their less benevolent counterparts. Others become those counterparts in a bid for temporal power to match their mystical might and still others become hermits and eccentrics, content to explore the worlds of wonder of which normal men only dream.

Favored souls and archivists simply represent variations on the cleric idea; the former being touched directly by their god and the latter being the more scholarly sort of cleric that looks to tales of old for wisdom to complement his dogma.



Personally, I'm of the opinion that they're all distinct enough both mechanically and flavor-wise not to discard any of them, generally. If you really want an east-asian feel then you should probably discard the cleric (including FS and archivist) and druid. They may be the most powerful mechanically but they just don't fit from a flavor standpoint. You could, of course, refluff them but you'd just be fluffing them as what the eastern classes already are.

*arcane as in complex and not commonly known, rather than as the game key-word for a particular type of power.

[Florian]

Whati s arcanist casting?

The Arcanist class is a mix of spontaneous and prepared caster. You have a wizards spell book but prepare a set of spells known from it every day.

[Eloel]

The Arcanist class is a mix of spontaneous and prepared caster. You have a wizards spell book but prepare a set of spells known from it every day.

Arcanist is to Wizard as Spirit Shaman is to Druid.

[CowardlyPaladin]

The Arcanist class is a mix of spontaneous and prepared caster. You have a wizards spell book but prepare a set of spells known from it every day.

how does that even work?

[Elderand]

It work the same way wizards work in fifth edition or how magisters works in Arcana evolved.

[ATHATH]

how does that even work?
Maybe someone better at explaining than I can give an example?

[eggynack]

Except that's not how tiers work. Spirit shaman might be bottom of the barrel for tier 1 but it's still tier 1. Access to the entire druid spell list is enough to put them in tier 1.
Except, while they technically get the whole spell list, they really don't at the same time. As a quick example, druids basically have overland flight. It's not on their list, but going bat all day is basically just a better version of that. It's a spell on the druid list that isn't on the spirit shaman list. When you apply that sort of logic globally, looking also at other class feature uses, spells that only really work in concert with said features, and the greater variety of spells actually available simply due to a greater number of slots (wind wall is way more likely to be one of three 3rd's than your only 3rd), the claim that you're looking at the same list holds far less water.

[ATHATH]

Except, while they technically get the whole spell list, they really don't at the same time. As a quick example, druids basically have overland flight. It's not on their list, but going bat all day is basically just a better version of that. It's a spell on the druid list that isn't on the spirit shaman list. When you apply that sort of logic globally, looking also at other class feature uses, spells that only really work in concert with said features, and the greater variety of spells actually available simply due to a greater number of slots (wind wall is way more likely to be one of three 3rd's than your only 3rd), the claim that you're looking at the same list holds far less water.
Luckily for us, there is the magic of list-expanding prestige classes (I know that prestige classes don't affect tiers and that Beguilers/Warmages/Dread Necromancers do this kind of thing better, but it's an important thing to remember).

Plus, the Druid list has at least some downtime spells, which must count for something.

[Maxrim]

Note that OA Shaman was updated in Dragon 318.

In support of the Shaman:
Clerics worship a deity or an ideal.
Druids worship a deity or the ideal of nature.
Shamans aren't NEARLY as pretentious. Pelor? He's a little stuffy, but he's got some BRIGHT ideas. Vecna? She's a little nasty, but if security is your game, she's your goal. The local river spirit should get some prayer when you want safe travel, and when you're liking for wisdom, why not commune with the spirit of an ancient forest, or maybe Boccob or some nature deity. The shaman venerates the ideals relevant to their lives, not to their church. Which is why they get 3 domains from a more personable list (what better way to represent hero worship than with the hero domain). Their casting is druid-y, but they've also got the martial skill to hold their own, without the need for clunky and obvious weapons.

[Coidzor]

OE shaman seems like it would be best if I just gave their unique spells and powers to Spirit Shaman. Unless there are some third party SHaman classes people like (does the Spirit Shaman's ability to choose its spelllist resemble the Magister's from Arcana Evolved?)

If you wanna axe the Shaman, move its unique spells to Druid and/or Cleric. Maybe one or two spell lines might be SS only, though.

If you wanna give Spirit Shaman that particular unarmed strike progression, well, they wouldn't say no, but probably wouldn't use it.

[Gnaeus]

If you wanna axe the Shaman, move its unique spells to Druid and/or Cleric. Maybe one or two spell lines might be SS only, though.

If you wanna give Spirit Shaman that particular unarmed strike progression, well, they wouldn't say no, but probably wouldn't use it.

They might. They do get a lot of spells like bite of the wereX that don't really work with their general lack of combat prowess.

[eggynack]

Plus, the Druid list has at least some downtime spells, which must count for something.
It doesn't hurt, but it's not like that cuts into the stack of lost spells from the list.

[Gnaeus]

It doesn't hurt, but it's not like that cuts into the stack of lost spells from the list.

And they have so few spells known per day that you had better be ironclad sure you aren't going to be fighting anything before you use a high level slot for something non-combat.

[HunterOfJello]

Note that OA Shaman was updated in Dragon 318.


For anyone interested in what it says:

It gives their Unarmed Strike increased damage similar to Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB. It also gives them a bonus martial arts themed feat at 4th and every 4 levels after which are similar to the Monk's bonus feats list (Blind Fight, Combat Reflexes, etc). It doesn't remove anything.



Interestingly, the same page also changes the type of the Hengeyokai to Humanoid (Shapechanger) and removes their LA.

*edit*

Hmm. It adds new spell to the shaman (and other class) lists as well. Cool.

[Florian]

how does that even work?

That´s pretty easy to explain and, as has been said, pretty similar to how 5E and AE Magisters work:

You have a regular spell book and keep adding to that, same thing any Wizard does.
Each day when you prepare spells, you can chose 3 spells for each spell level that you can cast to be your spells known for the day.

So, if you can cast 3rd level spells, you can chose 3 spells known for 1st, 2nd and 3rd spell level for that day from you book.

[Psyren]

Shugenja aren't all that weird or difficult to figure out. They're spontaneous divine casters with an elemental focus rather than a deific focus, that's all. If it helps, remember that many settings have elemental lords that are on par with lesser deities, and make shugenja their followers - they have stronger elemental thematics/ties than, say, a cleric with an elemental domain would.


The mechanics are written a bit confusingly in the book but are pretty straightforward once you've read them a few times.

- At first level, you choose an element to focus on. At least half your spells known from each spell level (rounded up) must come from that element, with the other half being any shugenja spell that does not directly oppose that element, and lastly you get your Order spell, which is a bonus spell much like a domain spell to make individual Shugenja different from one another. You cannot cast any spells at all that oppose your chosen element (e.g. fire opposes water, so Fire Shugenja cannot cast any Water-element spells.)

- An order is like a domain for shugenjas, and gives you a bonus spell known each level. Most of them are designed around a specific element, e.g. Order of Gentle Rain has a lot of water spells in it. You can pick an order that matches your element, but you don't have to. You shouldn't pick an order that directly opposes your element, because you're just locking yourself out of most or all of your order spells for no reason. (e.g. a Fire Shugenja should avoid Order of Gentle Rain.)

- The "scrolls" they use as foci (ofuda) are just strips of paper that they scribble on and fold while casting. They function like holy symbols, and just like holy symbols, they don't actually do anything else mechanically.


In general, earth and air are good elements for shugenja because you don't ban fire (direct damage) or water (healing), letting you keep a lot of versatility as the party's primary caster. Both elements have a lot of utility too, e.g. Air gives you illusions, teleportation and flight, while earth gives you an array of buffs and battlefield control.

[Zaq]

Shugenja aren't all that weird or difficult to figure out. They're spontaneous divine casters with an elemental focus rather than a deific focus, that's all. If it helps, remember that many settings have elemental lords that are on par with lesser deities, and make shugenja their followers - they have stronger elemental thematics/ties than, say, a cleric with an elemental domain would.


The mechanics are written a bit confusingly in the book but are pretty straightforward once you've read them a few times.

- At first level, you choose an element to focus on. At least half your spells known from each spell level (rounded up) must come from that element, with the other half being any shugenja spell that does not directly oppose that element, and lastly you get your Order spell, which is a bonus spell much like a domain spell to make individual Shugenja different from one another. You cannot cast any spells at all that oppose your chosen element (e.g. fire opposes water, so Fire Shugenja cannot cast any Water-element spells.)

- An order is like a domain for shugenjas, and gives you a bonus spell known each level. Most of them are designed around a specific element, e.g. Order of Gentle Rain has a lot of water spells in it. You can pick an order that matches your element, but you don't have to. You shouldn't pick an order that directly opposes your element, because you're just locking yourself out of most or all of your order spells for no reason. (e.g. a Fire Shugenja should avoid Order of Gentle Rain.)

- The "scrolls" they use as foci (ofuda) are just strips of paper that they scribble on and fold while casting. They function like holy symbols, and just like holy symbols, they don't actually do anything else mechanically.

The problem isn't that they're confusing. The problem is that they have really harsh limitations without doing anything unique in turn. As far as I can tell, they have zero unique spells (at least outside of Dragon, since I don't have any Dragon material for 3.5). They barely even get any non-PHB spells; by my count, they get about nine or ten spells in Complete Divine that aren't also in the PHB (of which I think exactly one is not Fire-aligned and not on an Order list, which seems weird—and that one spell is Master of the Rolling River, which is on their list but somehow didn't get printed in CDiv), and they get four more spells in Complete Champion (though CChamp neglects to tell us which elements those spells are aligned with, which may make it difficult to actually select those spells). The majority of their interesting spells are also Sorcerer spells, though they also have a smattering of healing (though we all know that casting healing spells in combat is often a losing game, which makes it hard to love having healing spells taking up precious spells known on a class with such a harshly limited spells known mechanic). Their spellcasting mechanic isn't unique in any sense—they're a generic CHA-based spontaneous caster who just happens to have weird restrictions on spells known.

I'm not saying that Shugenja are worthless. They're still 9th level casters, even if they're 9th level casters with really big disadvantages compared to most other 9th level casters. But I am saying that it's difficult to make a Shugenja who's actually mechanically distinct from many other CHA-based spontaneous casters (and fluff is fluff, so it's not hard to have a Sorc or a FS with an elemental theme if you choose to do that sort of thing). And I'm not directly calling for banning them—they aren't really broken on either power end, so it's not like we need to be saved from ourselves and prevented from using them. I'm just saying that it's really easy to ignore them, and I'm saying that there isn't really a compelling case for making a big deal about them. In the context of a GM thinking about adding "weird and unusual" casting classes to a game that didn't have them already, there's nothing sufficiently special about Shugenja that would make it worth spending a lot of time dealing with them. It wouldn't hurt anything to just toss them in the mix (even if very few people will choose to play one if they aren't restricted from playing other similar casters), but they also don't add anything compelling to the world.


In general, earth and air are good elements for shugenja because you don't ban fire (direct damage) or water (healing), letting you keep a lot of versatility as the party's primary caster. Both elements have a lot of utility too, e.g. Air gives you illusions, teleportation and flight, while earth gives you an array of buffs and battlefield control.

Amusingly enough, I would argue that fire and water are better elemental specialties for a Shugenja specifically because you don't have to ban earth or air, and I feel like you get more utility out of having both earth and air than you do out of having both fire and water. So yeah, earth and air are the most interesting elements, so ironically, you don't want to specialize in earth or in air because you want to have access to both earth and air, so you specialize in fire or water. Which seems messed up to me, of course, but that's one reason why I dislike the Shugenja spells known mechanic. But of course there's not One True Path to playing a Shugenja.

[Psyren]

I personally don't think "doesn't get unique spells" is much of a drawback. Spirit Shaman and Sha'ir don't get any unique spells either after all, and they're doing more than fine. Shugenja meanwhile gets a decent list, and on top of being Cha-SAD, they are also divine casters, which means you can strap on armor and shield without running into any spell failure issues, all while casting a number of spells that clerics and druids have a much harder time laying their hands on. The ability to, say, turn invisible and teleport while hasting and healing everyone is going to be pretty handy in a lot of groups, and when that isn't needed you can drop cloudkills or fireballs. If you only have room in your group for one caster, an Air or Water Shugenja is a pretty solid all-rounder, and if there are other full casters, you can choose your element and order strategically to fill in any gaps.

[Florian]

Shugenja doesn´t get unique spells? Please, do remember that OA was tied in with L5R d20. Magic of Rokugan brings tons of unique spells for the Shugenja.

[Psyren]

If we're talking Rokugan specifically, there is even more reason to be a Shugenja, because their magic doesn't cause Taint or carry the barbaric/uncouth connotations of Wu Jen spells. Thus Shugenja are free to both practice magic and rub elbows with society's elite (represented in 3.5 by them having Diplomacy as a class skill.)

Incidentally, that's another great reason to be a Shugenja - Diplomacy + Cha-based primary caster means you can also make a solid party face for most campaigns.

[Florian]

If we're talking Rokugan specifically, there is even more reason to be a Shugenja, because their magic doesn't cause Taint or carry the barbaric/uncouth connotations of Wu Jen spells. Thus Shugenja are free to both practice magic and rub elbows with society's elite (represented in 3.5 by them having Diplomacy as a class skill.)

Incidentally, that's another great reason to be a Shugenja - Diplomacy + Cha-based primary caster means you can also make a solid party face for most campaigns.

OT:

Are there Wu Jen in d20 L5R? I don´t think so.
You´ve got:
- Shugenja
- Sorcerer
- Bloodspeaker
- Some obscure Setting-based PrC (Nezumi and Naga-based, Shadow)
- Some ridiculous leftovers from OA like the Ranger (Makes absolutely no sense in Rokugan...)
.. And that´s it, right? The whole chinese/eastern asian stuff is not used.

[Psyren]

OT:

Are there Wu Jen in d20 L5R? I don´t think so.
You´ve got:
- Shugenja
- Sorcerer
- Bloodspeaker
- Some obscure Setting-based PrC (Nezumi and Naga-based, Shadow)
- Some ridiculous leftovers from OA like the Ranger (Makes absolutely no sense in Rokugan...)
.. And that´s it, right? The whole chinese/eastern asian stuff is not used.

You're right, they're not - I missed this line from OA:


DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is all about choices and options, and in these pages you should find enough choices and options to make your head spin. Our “featured” campaign setting for adventure in a world of fantasy Asia uses only a tiny portion of those options. Korobokurus or wu jen don’t fit in a campaign that tries to stay close to previous incarnations of Rokugan. Neither does the hopping vampire or the spirit centipede. But you will find those races, classes, and monsters—and much, much more—in this volume.

Assuming you're playing in the unnamed D&D OA setting though, there is reason to avoid Wu Jen and go with Shugenja instead. And even if you're sticking to Rokugan, my point about Shugenja stands - they are honored nobility and thus the best way to play a trustworthy full spellcaster in that setting.

[Florian]

And even if you're sticking to Rokugan, my point about Shugenja stands - they are honored nobility and thus the best way to play a trustworthy full spellcaster in that setting.

Absolutely. I´m a long-time player of the RnK version of L5R and the way Shugenja fit into the setting is very well executed.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Since everyone's addressing the mechanics, let me take a swing at the flavor.

Shaman and spirit shaman are both based on certain eastern religious traditions. They're moddled after the wandering priests and monks of Shinto, Bhuddist, and (I think) Hindi tales of their mythological forebearers. This includes the idea that the power from their spells comes from the animistic spirits of the world itself and from the grace of their ancestors' spirits rather than from individual or small pantheons of nigh-omnipotent gods. They are also mechanically distinct enough from one another and from the cleric for it to be well worth keeping even if the flavor doesn't do it for you.

Shugenja is based on a more animistic tradtion that predates the more formalized faiths that the shamans represent. It's calling directly on the spirits of the four elements to draw power. Look to eastern tales of wise men with strange powers and alchemist scholars. Mechanically it fits in a place between arcane and divine spellcasting tropes since it was intended to fill both roles in the setting for which it was designed.

Wu-jen is based on the old tales of witches and wielders of strange and fell powers in the orient. They behave strangely to appease the spirits for their strange powers because they enter into more of a partnership with them than the relationship of veneration and service offered by shamans and shugenga. In return they get some reasonably unique tricks. Mechanically they have some distinct features that set them apart from the wizard, including a few spells that don't appear on any other arcane list. Their companion spirit can become quite potent if you sink a couple feats into it.

Compare these to the core, western classes.

The cleric is a servant of his chosen god and follows a dogmatic religious structure (yes, even the chaotic ones, albeit more loosely). This touches on relatively modern, western monotheistic ideas for its inspiration, the major differences being that there are many more competing traditions than in the real world and those largely acknowledge that theirs, while still being the "best" god, isn't the only god.

The druid is based very specifically on the tales surrounding the celtic druid tradition. Little is known about it with certainty beyond it having a very strong tie to nature so that's what the class got. Its almost a direct worship of nature rather than of any gods or spirits related to the concept of nature.

Wizards are based on the eastern european and near-eastern notions of wise men and learned scholars gleaning supernatural power by learning things that common men were not meant to know and couldn't handle learning without going mad. They often become a touch insane and/or power hungry in the process in those tales. Some become advisors to people in power, aiding them in circumstances where their arcane* knowledge is required because of strange happenings or to protect them from the curses, hexes, and ill-tidings of their less benevolent counterparts. Others become those counterparts in a bid for temporal power to match their mystical might and still others become hermits and eccentrics, content to explore the worlds of wonder of which normal men only dream.

Favored souls and archivists simply represent variations on the cleric idea; the former being touched directly by their god and the latter being the more scholarly sort of cleric that looks to tales of old for wisdom to complement his dogma.



Personally, I'm of the opinion that they're all distinct enough both mechanically and flavor-wise not to discard any of them, generally. If you really want an east-asian feel then you should probably discard the cleric (including FS and archivist) and druid. They may be the most powerful mechanically but they just don't fit from a flavor standpoint. You could, of course, refluff them but you'd just be fluffing them as what the eastern classes already are.

*arcane as in complex and not commonly known, rather than as the game key-word for a particular type of power.


I see what you mean except with the Shaman and Spirit Shaman, who really do seem to fill the same niche, and the OE Shaman just doesn't seem to have enough to make them mechenically distinct.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I see what you mean except with the Shaman and Spirit Shaman, who really do seem to fill the same niche, and the OE Shaman just doesn't seem to have enough to make them mechenically distinct.

The two shamans are quite distinct in their mechanics. The spirit shaman has a unique spellcasting mechanic and its other class features are focused around interacting with spirits. The OA shaman has a more standard divine casting mechanic and its class features are more centered around martial arts. The OA shaman is natively better at the buff then fight routine while the spirit shaman is more of a direct caster.

Flavor wise, they're in the same boat as the duo of cleric and archivist. They're quite similar in what they are but get there in different ways.

[CowardlyPaladin]

The two shamans are quite distinct in their mechanics. The spirit shaman has a unique spellcasting mechanic and its other class features are focused around interacting with spirits. The OA shaman has a more standard divine casting mechanic and its class features are more centered around martial arts. The OA shaman is natively better at the buff then fight routine while the spirit shaman is more of a direct caster.

Flavor wise, they're in the same boat as the duo of cleric and archivist. They're quite similar in what they are but get there in different ways.


Yes but the OE shaman doesn't seem to be different enough from the Druid or cleric to really merit its existence.


On the Shujenga, it has flavor, but from what i remember of Legend of hte Five rings, it had a lot more diversity and things that made it distinct than it does in OE, which seems a bit like a watered down version of the Lot5R version

[Pluto!]

What restrictions does your game have that make a class need to be distinct to merit its existence?

Derivative classes aren't something D&D objects to - even in the core book, abilities are recycled between Druids and Rangers and Paladins and Clerics.

Do you use any class variants or variant features? The Shaman is just a variant of the Cleric meant to replace both it and the Druid for the OA setting

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes but the OE shaman doesn't seem to be different enough from the Druid or cleric to really merit its existence.


On the Shujenga, it has flavor, but from what i remember of Legend of hte Five rings, it had a lot more diversity and things that made it distinct than it does in OE, which seems a bit like a watered down version of the Lot5R version

The shaman is distinct from the cleric and druid by having access to spells from both lists without having to jump through any hoops and have the very notable spirit ally spells. They also have -actual- class features compared to a cleric who only gets turn undead and a couple domain powers.

If you're really that concerned with overlap, why not just use UA's generic classes.

[CowardlyPaladin]

What restrictions does your game have that make a class need to be distinct to merit its existence?

Derivative classes aren't something D&D objects to - even in the core book, abilities are recycled between Druids and Rangers and Paladins and Clerics.

Do you use any class variants or variant features? The Shaman is just a variant of the Cleric meant to replace both it and the Druid for the OA setting

Thats the thing it feels like a Variant. And I'm fine with Variant classes, but to me a whole class has to be a whole different play style, which Druids, Rangers, Paladins and Clerics are.

This thread has convinced me that Spirit Shaman due to its form of casting is unique I think I'm just going to merge with some third party Shamans I like so that it has a larger spell list and more class abilities to make it a larger class. OE Shaman I think will go into the merge, they will wind up as a singular class


Wu Jen and Shunjenga are fluff wise unique enough I don't want to merge them, I just need them to feel mechanically distinct. Wu Jen i'm going to give the Word casting to from Pathfinder, Shugenja i think i'm going to crack open my Legend of hte Five Rings books

[Coidzor]

In many ways the Shaman can be taken as a spiritual forebear of Pathfinder's Hybrid classes.