rogues in D&D could never pick medieval doors at night

[Joe dirt]

found out through some research that medieval doors needed to have locks on both sides of a door or at the very least a bar on the inside, meaning if the lock/bar on the inside was locked the rogue could never get to it to "pick it"... breaking fantasy art rogue fans hearts the world over... the mental picture of a rogue picking a lock and sneaking into a house in the dead of night to assassinate the owner is pure fantasy.

maybe rogues could get in some other way but not by lock picking, sorry skyrim fans.

the doors could be locked from the outside buuuuut this would trap anyone on the inside and would be only done if everyone in the house had to leave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zp2Xi5OnUM

and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4peBi5Bg7YQ

[Professor Gnoll]

Okay, but D&D's not a realistic fantasy simulator. Rogues also couldn't dodge a fireball from the middle of it. It's a game mechanic.

[Joe dirt]

Okay, but D&D's not a realistic fantasy simulator. Rogues also couldn't dodge a fireball from the middle of it. It's a game mechanic.

sorry but if you want historical accuracy then there is no lock picking at night, you cant have it both ways.

if unseen servant cant open the door by slipping underneath then neither can a rogue lock pick it.

[CantigThimble]

sorry but if you want historical accuracy then there is no lock picking at night, you cant have it both ways.

if unseen servant cant open the door by slipping underneath then neither can a rogue lock pick it.

Did he ever say he wanted historical accuracy? He seemed to be saying the exact opposite.

I know I don't want historical accuracy, I'm in Faerun, not medieval Germany. It seems fine to me to say that the 'requires key from either side' style locks are much more common in D&D than they were historically for whatever technological or economic reason.

[Foxhound438]

arcane trickster for the win

coming from someone who has a strong distaste for rogues...

[RickAllison]

sorry but if you want historical accuracy then there is no lock picking at night, you cant have it both ways.

if unseen servant cant open the door by slipping underneath then neither can a rogue lock pick it.

And where are your sources? The only ones you provided in the other thread were two very specific sets of locks that were not insinuated to be normal.

[Joe dirt]

Did he ever say he wanted historical accuracy? He seemed to be saying the exact opposite.

I know I don't want historical accuracy, I'm in Faerun, not medieval Germany. It seems fine to me to say that the 'requires key from either side' style locks are much more common in D&D than they were historically for whatever technological or economic reason.

im all for a world like skyrim where the door is more modern and the door can be picked at night but this isn't historically accurate.... its like having a pad lock on the inside and another on the outside and yes the occupants can be locked inside

[JoeJ]

if unseen servant cant open the door by slipping underneath then neither can a rogue lock pick it.

I fail to see the connection between those two concepts. How is a restriction on what a spell can do related to the kinds of locks that are in common use?

[Joe dirt]

And where are your sources? The only ones you provided in the other thread were two very specific sets of locks that were not insinuated to be normal.

thanks, updated the original post

[CantigThimble]

im all for a world like skyrim where the door is more modern and the door can be picked at night but this isn't historically accurate.... its like having a pad lock on the inside and another on the outside and yes the occupants can be locked inside

But like I said, this isn't earth and it doesn't follow it's history. There's no reason why it should. Also, it's a game so I'm going to use the lock that works best for the game because the fluff of locksmiths in my fantasy world doesn't really matter to me. Therefore I declare that the most common types of locks in my fantasy world are the type that require a key no matter what side of the door you're on, NOT the padlock type, since those are the simplest to manage and work well with lockpicking mechanics.

Edit: Also, note that in the description of the first video you posted it mentions that the type of locks it displays were pretty unique and rare.

[Joe dirt]

I fail to see the connection between those two concepts. How is a restriction on what a spell can do related to the kinds of locks that are in common use?

the argument in the other thread is that historically accurate doors had locks on both sides meaning a shapeless force like unseen servant needs to "pick" the lock on the inside of the door in order to gain access. problem is if there is an actual lock on the inside then a fantasy based rogue is not accurate

now if its a lock on the outside and bar on the inside an unseen servant could open the door but the rogue could not

[RickAllison]

the argument in the other thread is that historically accurate doors had locks on both sides meaning a shapeless force like unseen servant needs to "pick" the lock on the inside of the door in order to gain access. problem is if there is an actual lock on the inside then a fantasy based rogue is not accurate

Actually, the main argument was that the primary types of locks were the ones that could be locked with the same mechanism from either side. The two sources you provided directly contradict you are trying to make.

The latter stated that it was used in Egypt (not medieval Europe) and some cursory research on the San Benedetto locks revealed that those locks were unique. They were actually quite the mystery because they were otherwise seen only in sub-Saharan Africa (also not medieval Europe). So rather than strengthen your argument, your sources say you are totally incorrect.

[Joe dirt]

Actually, the main argument was that the primary types of locks were the ones that could be locked with the same mechanism from either side. The two sources you provided directly contradict you are trying to make.

The latter stated that it was used in Egypt (not medieval Europe) and some cursory research on the San Benedetto locks revealed that those locks were unique. They were actually quite the mystery because they were otherwise seen only in sub-Saharan Africa (also not medieval Europe). So rather than strengthen your argument, your sources say you are totally incorrect.

actually these types of locks where used in ancient egypt all the way up into middle ages, because thats how efficient they were at keeping out rogues... the first link is the same kind of lock but set in italy

[CantigThimble]

actually these types of locks where used in ancient egypt all the way up into middle ages, because thats how efficient they were at keeping out rogues... the first link is the same kind of lock but set in italy

[Citation Needed]

[Joe dirt]

[Citation Needed]

links are at in the first part of this thread

[JoeJ]

the argument in the other thread is that historically accurate doors had locks on both sides meaning a shapeless force like unseen servant needs to "pick" the lock on the inside of the door in order to gain access. problem is if there is an actual lock on the inside then a fantasy based rogue is not accurate

now if its a lock on the outside and bar on the inside an unseen servant could open the door but the rogue could not

Actually, that's not correct. The primary arguments were: 1) an Unseen Servant won't fit through a tiny crack, and 2) with most locks, a key is needed from both sides. Whether the lock is accessible from the inside, outside, or both has nothing to do with how the spell works.

Now of course a fantasy rogue is not accurate. I've never heard anybody claim otherwise. But you wouldn't need to be a fantasy rogue to get past the locks in the videos you posted. I could do it, and I'm certainly no Gray Mouser.

[CantigThimble]

links are at in the first part of this thread

"San Benedetto in Perillis, a village in central Italy, is unique because of its antique, hand-crafted wooden door locks."

From the description of the first video you posted. Seems pretty clear this wasn't a common thing across Europe if this is our only source or information.

[Joe dirt]

Actually, that's not correct. The primary arguments were: 1) an Unseen Servant won't fit through a tiny crack, and 2) with most locks, a key is needed from both sides. Whether the lock is accessible from the inside, outside, or both has nothing to do with how the spell works.

Now of course a fantasy rogue is not accurate. I've never heard anybody claim otherwise. But you wouldn't need to be a fantasy rogue to get past the locks in the videos you posted. I could do it, and I'm certainly no Gray Mouser.

1rst of all a shapeless force can pass through tiny cracks because its shapeless... water is shapeless too

and 2nd yes if you need a key to unlock a door then unseen servant does not have the skill to pick it and then open the door, if the door only has a bar on the inside then yes

3rd no you would not even have the chance to pick the lock of a door that is INSIDE. these were apparently such a good strategy that you find the same style of lock from the ancient Egyptian times to medieval times meaning the image of skyrim assassins lurking about picking locks is not accurate

[Joe dirt]

"San Benedetto in Perillis, a village in central Italy, is unique because of its antique, hand-crafted wooden door locks."

From the description of the first video you posted. Seems pretty clear this wasn't a common thing across Europe if this is our only source or information.

its all over this village for a reason... those locks worked

[Regitnui]

I'm gonna come from eberron and say that there's an entirely different reason that you can't pick House Kundarak (i.e. 'modern') locks. Because they're damn hard! In Eberron, at least, security technology is much closer to that of the present day, backed up with magic. That's counterbalanced by the best locks being very expensive and controlled by the dwarven corporation who's entire business involves keeping things safe. They run the best prison on the continent, for heaven's sake. That's not including the heavily-armoured dwarves that might be looking at you funny while you're kneeling in front of the door...

This thread comes along as 'You said I can't do this but you shouldn't be able to do this either so there.":smallfrown:

[CantigThimble]

its all over this village for a reason... those locks worked

Ooookay so if a rogue goes to that one village in Italy he's screwed. Everywhere else however there's no reason to believe they used those kinds of locks like you implied earlier.


Oh and also, for anyone discussing the ability of unseen servant to pass through cracks, the dictionary definition of the word shapeless:
adjective
(especially of a garment) lacking a distinctive or attractive shape

[Joe dirt]

I'm gonna come from eberron and say that there's an entirely different reason that you can't pick House Kundarak (i.e. 'modern') locks. Because they're damn hard! In Eberron, at least, security technology is much closer to that of the present day, backed up with magic. That's counterbalanced by the best locks being very expensive and controlled by the dwarven corporation who's entire business involves keeping things safe. They run the best prison on the continent, for heaven's sake. That's not including the heavily-armoured dwarves that might be looking at you funny while you're kneeling in front of the door...

This thread comes along as 'You said I can't do this but you shouldn't be able to do this either so there.":smallfrown:

well these are cheap wooden locks that worked because they was on the inside... no chance to get a pair of lock picks near them... sorry fans of fantasy

[JoeJ]

1rst of all a shapeless force can pass through tiny cracks because its shapeless... water is shapeless too

So is a beanbag chair, but that's another thread.


3rd no you would not even have the chance to pick the lock of a door that is INSIDE. these were apparently such a good strategy that you find the same style of lock from the ancient Egyptian times to medieval times meaning the image of skyrim assassins lurking about picking locks is not accurate

Skyrim is not relevant either to D&D or to real life, and that kind of lock would only take a few minutes to get past. I don't need access to the mechanism when I can just slide a saw blade into the crack between the door and the frame and cut through the bolt.

[Joe dirt]

Ooookay so if a rogue goes to that one village in Italy he's screwed. Everywhere else however there's no reason to believe they used those kinds of locks like you implied earlier.


Oh and also, for anyone discussing the ability of unseen servant to pass through cracks, the dictionary definition of the word shapeless:
adjective
(especially of a garment) lacking a distinctive or attractive shape

these types of locks are found in other places in Europe but your right there are were other types of more sophisticated locks... but if its even a simple bar on the inside you are rogue proof.

i agree with the definition, sorry if you dont understand it. its like the liquid terminator in terminator 2 judgement day.

its also means "amorphous"

a : having no definite form : shapeless <an amorphous cloud mass>
b : being without definite character or nature : unclassifiable <an amorphous segment of society>
c : lacking organization or unity <an amorphous style of writing>

[RickAllison]

well these are cheap wooden locks that worked because they was on the inside... no chance to get a pair of lock picks near them

Then why didn't they catch on throughout Europe rather than in that one town?

Frankly, your arguments for this have been fairly pitiful. They are directly contrasted by your sources and you have attempted to extrapolate reasoning (that they were adept at keeping out thieves, for instance) that are not supported by your sources. Either you are being disingenuous, or you haven't actually watched your videos.

In actuality, the locks seem easier to pick than the corresponding locks that are suggested by D&D. They are far larger and have fewer tumblers that a thief can actually see into. Basically, they have all the shortcomings of a traditional lock, but worse because they are rendered in a larger scale. From the argument of it being barred on one side, we get why we didn't see these locks becoming more common: it was easier and just as effective to just slide a bar over the door.

EDIT: As of post #24, it is confirmed that you are being disingenuous; nay, you are actually lying. Show me in your "sources" where these were found elsewhere in Europe? I was annoyed when you were acting ignorant of your own sources, but I am ticked that you would actually lie to further your own argument.

[Joe dirt]

Then why didn't they catch on throughout Europe rather than in that one town?

Frankly, your arguments for this have been fairly pitiful. They are directly contrasted by your sources and you have attempted to extrapolate reasoning (that they were adept at keeping out thieves, for instance) that are not supported by your sources. Either you are being disingenuous, or you haven't actually watched your videos.

In actuality, the locks seem easier to pick than the corresponding locks that are suggested by D&D. They are far larger and have fewer tumblers that a thief can actually see into. Basically, they have all the shortcomings of a traditional lock, but worse because they are rendered in a larger scale. From the argument of it being barred on one side, we get why we didn't see these locks becoming more common: it was easier and just as effective to just slide a bar over the door.

EDIT: As of post #24, it is confirmed that you are being disingenuous; nay, you are actually lying. Show me in your "sources" where these were found elsewhere in Europe? I was annoyed when you were acting ignorant of your own sources, but I am ticked that you would actually lie to further your own argument.

they were everywhere, and no you cant pick one when its on the inside... sorry rogues of fantasy

you can call me a liar all you want... evidence?

[Professor Gnoll]

{scrubbed}
Look, I'll say it again- so what? Who needs historical accuracy in a game not set in Earth's history? It serves the game's purpose to have rogues pick locks at night.

[CantigThimble]

these types of locks are found in other places in Europe but your right there are were other types of more sophisticated locks... but if its even a simple bar on the inside you are rogue proof.

i agree with the definition, sorry if you dont understand it. its like the liquid terminator in terminator 2 judgement day.

Aaaand the example from the dictionary definition:

Women in shapeless cotton dresses.

And I'm the one who doesn't understand the definition? Or can cotton dresses slide through sieves? You are repeatedly (and I would guess deliberately) ignoring everything else to hone in on the specific interpretation that supports what you want the spell to be able to do. Nice sophistry, but I'm more of a socratic myself.


they were everywhere, and no you cant pick one when its on the inside... sorry rogues of fantasy

you can call me a liar all you want... evidence?

You gave evidence they were found in one spot in Europe and then claimed they were found all over Europe. The burden of proof is on you here to prove that your claim was true, not on him to prove that your claim was false.

[RickAllison]

they were everywhere, and no you cant pick one when its on the inside... sorry rogues of fantasy

you can call me a liar all you want... evidence?

Exhibits:

A) Your first video. It claimed that the village was unique because of its wooden locks.

B) Your second video which stated they came from Egypt and gave no mention of use in Europe, which fits in well with only existing in that one specific village.

Huh. Both of the documents you cited as your evidence support my allegation that you lied. I didn't even have the burden of proof and am farther along to establishing it than you.

There are more efficient ways to complain about your loose interpretations of spells than to create falsified arguments on related subjects.

[Regitnui]

well these are cheap wooden locks that worked because they was on the inside... no chance to get a pair of lock picks near them... sorry fans of fantasy

Sorry, but are you trying to say that a door locked from the inside cannot be picked from the outside? Every lock I've ever seen has a keyhole on both sides of the door. The other day I unlocked a door from the outside that was locked from the inside.

[Joe dirt]

Exhibits:

A) Your first video. It claimed that the village was unique because of its wooden locks.

B) Your second video which stated they came from Egypt and gave no mention of use in Europe, which fits in well with only existing in that one specific village.

Huh. Both of the documents you cited as your evidence support my allegation that you lied. I didn't even have the burden of proof and am farther along to establishing it than you.

There are more efficient ways to complain about your loose interpretations of spells than to create falsified arguments on related subjects.

yes technology that works travels because humans are copy cats with only a few with imagination. and usually technology makes small incremental changes over time... let me ask you genius... how exactly did ancient egyptian lock designs even get to the middle of italy and magically skip over other cities as you claim?

[CantigThimble]

yes technology that works travels because humans are copy cats with only a few with imagination. and usually technology makes small incremental changes over time... let me ask you genius... how exactly did ancient egyptian lock designs even get to the middle of italy?

https://abruzzoinmyheart.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/san-benedetto-in-perillis-and-the-wooden-locks/

Apparently no one knows. It's especially weird because: "The only other place in the world where they use similar locks are in subSaharian Africa, for example in Sudan." Your ability to jump to conclusions based on even tiny amounts of unrelated evidence astounds me.

[Joe dirt]

https://abruzzoinmyheart.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/san-benedetto-in-perillis-and-the-wooden-locks/

Apparently no one knows. It's especially weird because: "The only other place in the world where they use similar locks are in subSaharian Africa, for example in Sudan." Your ability to jump to conclusions based on even tiny amounts of unrelated evidence astounds me.

{scrubbed} according to you this one village in italy never did trade or commerce with any other civilizations nor did they spread ideas or imported technology... amazing

[JakOfAllTirades]

This may very well be the origin of the "second story thief" who enters buildings via windows on an upper floor. While you're all arguing about whether it's too much trouble (or even possible) to get through the door, he's already climbed up on the roof, found an unlocked window on the top floor, and burgled the whole place.

Then unlocked the back door from inside and let himself out....

[RickAllison]

yes technology that works travels because humans are copy cats with only a few with imagination. and usually technology makes small incremental changes over time... let me ask you genius... how exactly did ancient egyptian lock designs even get to the middle of italy and magically skip over other cities as you claim?

From a technological evolution perspective, it makes sense. It is not unique because it skipped the areas in between (although that is possible; if they had a particular affinity or connection due to trade with Africa, it would make sense), it is unique because they still existed there. It very well could be that it did go through other places, but those areas phased it out when better alternative came around. Because thieves were able to defeat the locks, new and better designs were developed that were found more commonly throughout Europe.

So here is a much more logical conclusion: Mediterranean traders who didn't have key locks imported the idea from travels to Africa (alternatively, African traders exported it to Italy); they were useful, but the locks wer easily defeated by thieves; better locks were developed to defeat these thieves; either due to tradition, poverty, or because thievery was not particularly common in the area, San Benedetto retained the older style of lock. No magic, pure logic.

EDIT: JakofallTirades, you get +3 cookies in your choice of flavors: chocolate chip, oatmeal raisin, or snicker-doodles. But no Thin Mints. Those are mine, my Thin Mints :smalltongue:

[Joe dirt]

This may very well be the origin of the "second story thief" who enters buildings via windows on an upper floor. While you're all arguing about whether it's too much trouble (or even possible) to get through the door, he's already climbed up on the roof, found an unlocked window on the top floor, and burgled the whole place.

Then unlocked the back door from inside and let himself out....

yep... i like that.. :smallbiggrin:

[CantigThimble]

its called common sense, first of all you dont have the ability to use logic do you? according to you this one village in italy never did trade or commerce with any other civilizations nor did they spread ideas or imported technology... amazing

Not according to me, according to your source there's no historical evidence they were ever used outside of Africa and San Benedetto. Whatever assumptions you've made pretty clearly contradict the historical record. So, your opinions and the facts seem to contradict each other here. Common sense says that one of those two must be wrong. Common sense tells me that it isn't the facts.

[Joe dirt]

From a technological evolution perspective, it makes sense. It is not unique because it skipped the areas in between (although that is possible; if they had a particular affinity or connection due to trade with Africa, it would make sense), it is unique because they still existed there. It very well could be that it did go through other places, but those areas phased it out when better alternative came around. Because thieves were able to defeat the locks, new and better designs were developed that were found more commonly throughout Europe.

So here is a much more logical conclusion: Mediterranean traders who didn't have key locks imported the idea from travels to Africa (alternatively, African traders exported it to Italy); they were useful, but the locks wer easily defeated by thieves; better locks were developed to defeat these thieves; either due to tradition, poverty, or because thievery was not particularly common in the area, San Benedetto retained the older style of lock. No magic, pure logic.

EDIT: JakofallTirades, you get +3 cookies in your choice of flavors: chocolate chip, oatmeal raisin, or snicker-doodles. But no Thin Mints. Those are mine, my Thin Mints :smalltongue:

yes of course trade to and from different cities happened. this lock technology even spread to japan and BEFORE you accuse me of lying again read this

http://www.britannica.com/technology/lock-security

[Joe dirt]

Not according to me, according to your source there's no historical evidence they were ever used outside of Africa and San Benedetto. Whatever assumptions you've made pretty clearly contradict the historical record. So, your opinions and the facts seem to contradict each other here. Common sense says that one of those two must be wrong. Common sense tells me that it isn't the facts.

{scrubbed} no my opinions and the facts align son they was even used a similar one in japan according to this article
http://www.britannica.com/technology/lock-security

[RickAllison]

yes of course trade to and from different cities happened. this lock technology even spread to japan and BEFORE you accuse me of lying again read this

http://www.britannica.com/technology/lock-security


In the Middle Ages, great skill and a high degree of workmanship were employed in making metal locks, especially by the German metalworkers of Nürnberg. The moving parts of the locks were closely fitted and finished, and the exteriors were lavishly decorated. Even the keys were often virtual works of art. The security, however, was solely dependent on elaborate warding, the mechanism of the lock being developed hardly at all. One refinement was to conceal the keyhole by secret shutters, another was to provide blind keyholes, which forced the lock picker to waste time and effort. The 18th-century French excelled in making beautiful and intricate locks.

{scrubbed} This is the third source you have cited that has disproved your claims. I have no doubt it occurred in several areas, but it didn't spread throughout medieval Europe like you claimed.
{scrubbed}

In summary, I took your advice and read your third source. It, like the others, proved you were not being truthful.

[CantigThimble]

your mamma dropped u on the head didn't she? no my opinions and the facts align son they was even used a similar one in japan according to this article
http://www.britannica.com/technology/lock-security

So why did the first source you cited claim: "The only other place in the world where they use similar locks are in subSaharian Africa, for example in Sudan."

I'm not researching here, I'm just using the same source you used as evidence earlier in this thread.

And keep the childish insults out of it.

[Joe dirt]

{scrubbed}

from here
http://www.britannica.com/technology/lock-security


The lock originated in the Near East; the oldest known example was found in the ruins of the palace of Khorsabad near Nineveh. Possibly 4,000 years old, it is of the type known as a pin tumbler or, from its widespread use in Egypt, an Egyptian lock. It consists of a large wooden bolt, which secures the door, through which is pierced a slot with several holes in its upper surface. An assembly attached to the door contains several wooden pins positioned to drop into these holes and grip the bolt. The key is a large wooden bar, something like a toothbrush in shape; instead of bristles it has upright pegs that match the holes and the pins. Inserted in the large keyhole below the vertical pins it is simply lifted, raising the pins clear and allowing the bolt, with the key in it, to be slid back (Figure 1). Locks of this type have been found in Japan, Norway, and the Faeroe Islands and are still in use in Egypt, India, and Zanzibar. An Old Testament reference, in Isaiah, “And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David,” shows how the keys were carried. The falling-pin principle, a basic feature of many locks, was developed to the full in the modern Yale lock (Figure 2).

[RickAllison]

{scrubbed}

[Joe dirt]

{scrubbed}

[woodlandkammao]

This thread should probably be renamed "rogues in the real world could never pick medieval locks at night." Is anyone seriously suggesting that DnD has to be historically accurate? Because if so, I have some really bad news regarding wizards.

Edit: Also Elves

[RickAllison]

except the all the evidence you ignore

I have most certainly not ignored them. I have actually cited your "evidence" to disprove your claims. Your less-reliable initial sources both fully disagreed with you, and your Encyclopedia Britannica article I actually quoted to show that it disagreed with you again. It is not I who is ignoring evidence, it is you, and you are willfully ignoring the evidence that you have put forth.

EDIT: By this point, they are not accusations, they are evaluations.

[Joe dirt]

This thread should probably be renamed "rogues in the real world could never pick medieval locks at night." Is anyone seriously suggesting that DnD has to be historically accurate? Because if so, I have some really bad news regarding wizards.

some people think D&D should be historically accurate, i happen to not think this way actually but if this path is pursued then yes rogues would have serious limitations

[CantigThimble]

since you guys apparently cant read

I just demanded that you keep childish insults out of it.

[Joe dirt]

{scrubbed}

[RickAllison]

I just demanded that you keep childish insults out of it.

{scrubbed}

EDIT: Joe, listen to yourself. You claimed they existed throughout Europe and were in common use. The areas they remain in use today are not the medieval-early Renaissance Europe D&D is based on. Actually quote your sources and show where they indicated the common existence of the wooden locks in medieval Europe. We will wait.

[woodlandkammao]

{scrubbed}

[Regitnui]

except the all the evidence you ignore and accusations of being a liar

Joe, you're started on a flimsy premise; that locks can't be picked by a rogue, when picking locks has been one of the defining features of this class since the Grey Mouser. You're not going to lose anything by admitting fault. It's OK to back down. Would you really keep arguing this point were you physically speaking to us, without the shield of the internet?

[Joe dirt]

Sorry, but are you trying to say that a door locked from the inside cannot be picked from the outside? Every lock I've ever seen has a keyhole on both sides of the door. The other day I unlocked a door from the outside that was locked from the inside.


no i am just talking about a particular design of door common in the middle ages that needed a lock on both sides of the door to work if the lock that was on the inside was locked then no rogue could pick it... meaning when the residence was asleep then a rogue could not historically pick said lock because its physically on the other side of the door... this is not the way people in fantasy settings want to play nor am i advocating it... rather i am mocking the idea of destroying fantasy for historical accuracy

[Cybren]

I mean, realistically why are you lock picking at all? Break in with a crowbar. It's faster and who cares if you break the door? It's not your door.

99% of the time, when an adventuring party picks a lock, it's directly before or after murdering people with explosions, so stealth can't be the reason. It's just a genre thing.

[JellyPooga]

OK, I'm coming fresh to this argument, so my apologies if I recover ground that's been covered.

Setting aside the question of how ubiquitous these style of locks may or may not have been, there's a few points I'd like to make, with regard to the OP.

1) What has picking locks at night got to do with the price of fish? Don't make extraneous or misleading statements; it only undermines your position in an argument. If the lock is "unpickable", then the ambient lighting or time of day has little to do with it.

2) Your claim that it's "unpickable" is not true. The lock itself is very easy to bypass with the right tools. Heck, if I knew this style of lock was common, I'd carry a number of "skeleton keys" in my thieves tools; there are only so many iterations possible with that style of lock - number of pins and their width is about it - a handful of keys could probably get you past most locks of this type.

3) Assuming the owner has installed a lock on both sides of the door; only one side is ever going to be locked, unless (as you mention) someone is being locked in by another. This is functionally identical to barring a door and serves very little valid purpose outside of limited circumstances. So the function of the lock that you claim as "unpickable" (i.e. the fact that it can be locked from the inside) has nothing to do with the design of the lock itself, except where it shares similarities with other "unpickable" (and simpler) locking mechanisms (i.e. a bar). Further to this, a bar (or interior lock) is not impossible to bypass, it's merely different to bypassing an exterior lock.

4) An interior lock is only useful if the owner is in or you even have the capability of locking it from the inside. Good luck locking a chest or desk from the inside, or keeping people out of your house when you're not in and therefore, in most need for keeping people out. Thieves are notorious for not wanting confrontation; how better to avoid it than to wait for your victim to leave the house, not only avoiding their person altogether but also making it much easier to gain access to their property?

5) If this style of lock is so good, why was it improved upon? It's just a primitive lock. The first video you link in the OP even shows a door with one of these and a modern lock right beneath it! It can't be that good if it needs a second, better, lock to actually secure the door...

[Captbrannigan]

You keep talking about one sided locks and refuse to acknowledge that these are a less than 150 year old design. In the previous thread, I supposed that the most common locks are either simple keyholes (for which the key is used from either side) or bars (which are either too crude to need lockpicking skills for and the party auto succeeds through or can only be removed from inside).

That does not imply that there are two locks on every door and even if you unlocked the outside the inside is still locked come on guys you're having badwrongfun!

I think you may also be confusing door handles and latches. Modern door handles turn the latch, and the lock stops the handles from turning. Traditional locks directly manipulate the latch, and the handle is just for pulling the door open/closed.

[FaradayCage]

This argument is absurd from the start, but are you suggesting that a blob can slip through a crack where a thin piece of iron will not?

[JackPhoenix]

This thread should probably be renamed "rogues in the real world could never pick medieval locks at night." Is anyone seriously suggesting that DnD has to be historically accurate? Because if so, I have some really bad news regarding wizards.

Edit: Also Elves

But not dragons. There's one (http://www.brno.cz/en/tourist-leisure/history/brno-tales/the-brno-dragon/) stuffed in Brno's town hall. It just looks exactly like a stuffed crocodile.


2) Your claim that it's "unpickable" is not true. The lock itself is very easy to bypass with the right tools. Heck, if I knew this style of lock was common, I'd carry a number of "skeleton keys" in my thieves tools; there are only so many iterations possible with that style of lock - number of pins and their width is about it - a handful of keys could probably get you past most locks of this type.

His argument is that it's unpickable because it's on the other side of the door from you...just as it would be "unpickable" if it was in the next city over.

[Regitnui]

no i am just talking about a particular design of door common in the middle ages that needed a lock on both sides of the door to work if the lock that was on the inside was locked then no rogue could pick it... meaning when the residence was asleep then a rogue could not historically pick said lock because its physically on the other side of the door... this is not the way people in fantasy settings want to play nor am i advocating it... rather i am mocking the idea of destroying fantasy for historical accuracy

OK, so what's your point? Are you just arguing for attention or do you legitimately believe that the fact that this lock at some point existed in a small area of the world completely undermines every rogue's ability to pick locks in fiction and every locksmith's ability in real life? What is your end objective here?


This argument is absurd from the start, but are you suggesting that a blob can slip through a crack where a thin piece of iron will not?

Most Oozes can dissolve the door and/or the lock. It's why you make your sewer grates in D&D cities out of stone and magic.

[Rakoa]

{scrubbed}

[woodlandkammao]

Now you mention it, this does have a whiff of that old chestnut about it.

[Joe dirt]

OK, I'm coming fresh to this argument, so my apologies if I recover ground that's been covered.

Setting aside the question of how ubiquitous these style of locks may or may not have been, there's a few points I'd like to make, with regard to the OP.

1) What has picking locks at night got to do with the price of fish? Don't make extraneous or misleading statements; it only undermines your position in an argument. If the lock is "unpickable", then the ambient lighting or time of day has little to do with it.

2) Your claim that it's "unpickable" is not true. The lock itself is very easy to bypass with the right tools. Heck, if I knew this style of lock was common, I'd carry a number of "skeleton keys" in my thieves tools; there are only so many iterations possible with that style of lock - number of pins and their width is about it - a handful of keys could probably get you past most locks of this type.

3) Assuming the owner has installed a lock on both sides of the door; only one side is ever going to be locked, unless (as you mention) someone is being locked in by another. This is functionally identical to barring a door and serves very little valid purpose outside of limited circumstances. So the function of the lock that you claim as "unpickable" (i.e. the fact that it can be locked from the inside) has nothing to do with the design of the lock itself, except where it shares similarities with other "unpickable" (and simpler) locking mechanisms (i.e. a bar). Further to this, a bar (or interior lock) is not impossible to bypass, it's merely different to bypassing an exterior lock.

4) An interior lock is only useful if the owner is in or you even have the capability of locking it from the inside. Good luck locking a chest or desk from the inside, or keeping people out of your house when you're not in and therefore, in most need for keeping people out. Thieves are notorious for not wanting confrontation; how better to avoid it than to wait for your victim to leave the house, not only avoiding their person altogether but also making it much easier to gain access to their property?

5) If this style of lock is so good, why was it improved upon? It's just a primitive lock. The first video you link in the OP even shows a door with one of these and a modern lock right beneath it! It can't be that good if it needs a second, better, lock to actually secure the door...


this entire thread is mocking the idea of too much realism put inside fantasy so of course my fantasy rogue can always pick a lock not created by master dwarf kings that only open in the light of a specific moon

1 and 2 and 3 my claim that a lock is "not pickable" stems from the fact that a particular type of ancient lock was found so much it was used from ancient egypt to japan and the reason it was unpickable is because it was a lock found on the inside of the door where the thief/rogue is not... you can have all the skeleton keys you want if the door is basically barred from the inside... yes you would need a crowbar to equivalent to get past this kind of security and a strength check to get past and breaking apart a wood door is not going to be stealthy.

4 nobody is talking about chest, yes lock picks would work

5 the lock was made of wood which doesnt take weather well, and most people apparently want the type of lock on the doors that evolved overtime till today, today they are made of metal, key can fit in the hand and pocket easily, you can lock the same lock from the inside, you can lock the door from the outside without trapping people inside.... having said all that these locks ARE used in some parts of the world today according to this article which is the third time i am posting this

http://www.britannica.com/technology/lock-security

[Thrudd]

It doesn't matter how the lock actually works. The rogue has a skill to bypass locks. If they succeed at their roll to do so, it means they did whatever was necessary to get through the lock (relatively quietly aka without smashing the door down). "Picking a lock" doesn't just mean one thing. It means doing whatever you need to do, with whatever special tool you need, to unlock the lock. If the rogue fails the roll, then you could say that perhaps they lacked the right tool or the door was locked from the inside. If a type of lock is really common, then you can be sure rogues have thought about how to pick them and have prepared a special tool to do it.

[Regitnui]

this entire thread is mocking the idea of too much realism put inside fantasy so of course my fantasy rogue can always pick a lock not created by master dwarf kings that only open in the light of a specific moon

Ah hah! So it is basically just trying to be a mockery of the people who shot down your unseen servant shenanigans with that cursed common sense and logic.

[Moo, I'm Human]

Joe Dirt... please
{scrubbed}

Come on, be kind. I'll quote you one of your previous lines to show what I think.
"kind of personal dont ya think?"
And don't bring the bible into this, it has nothing to do with anything, that's centuries off the renaissance period where D&D usually takes place.

[smcmike]

A+ thread.

I had no idea so many words could be drawn out of the existence of deadbolts.

[Joe dirt]

Ah hah! So it is basically just trying to be a mockery of the people who shot down your unseen servant shenanigans with that cursed common sense and logic.

actually i am pointing out an double standard violation with their logic. and yes mocking them at the same time,

and no its not a shenanigan when u say unseen servant cannot open a simple door from the inside because of a lock from medival period on the inside then a 20th level rogue would have the same problem too

[CantigThimble]

actually i am pointing out an double standard violation with their logic. and yes mocking them at the same time,

and no its not a shenanigan when say u unseen servant cannot open a simple door from the inside because of a lock from medival period on the inside then a 20th level rogue would have the same problem too

You have yet to provide any evidence that the locks you have referenced were in common use in France, Germany, Spain, England OR Portugal in the medieval era. Or even in the next town over from San Benedetto. You ASSUME that they were, because that suits your argument, but you haven't provided any evidence.

"Unique to this one small village between Popoli and Navelli, along the Svolte di Popoli, are the wooden locks and keys. The only other place in the world where they use similar locks are in subSaharian Africa, for example in Sudan. How did the locks get here?"
https://abruzzoinmyheart.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/san-benedetto-in-perillis-and-the-wooden-locks/

"Locks of this type have been found in Japan, Norway, and the Faeroe Islands"
http://www.britannica.com/technology/lock-security

Both of these are sources YOU cited.

[Joe dirt]

Joe Dirt... please
"you dont have the ability to use logic do you?...your mamma dropped u on the head didn't she?...since you guys apparently can't read...apparently you have reading comprehension problems"

Come on, be kind. I'll quote you one of your previous lines to show what I think.
"kind of personal dont ya think?"
And don't bring the bible into this, it has nothing to do with anything, that's centuries off the renaissance period where D&D usually takes place.

i am kind and respectful to people who are also kind and respectful... {scrubbed}

[JackPhoenix]

actually i am pointing out an double standard violation with their logic. and yes mocking them at the same time,

and no its not a shenanigan when say u unseen servant cannot open a simple door from the inside because of a lock from medival period on the inside then a 20th level rogue would have the same problem too

The only faulty "logic" (if you can even call it that) is yours. When people shot down your ideas about Unseen Servant's abilities, you started whole new thread with no relevance to the original topic, because one type of lock (that was hardly omnipresent in the medieval period, despite your lies) can only be opened from one side. D&D is NOT set in our middle ages, it is NOT historically accurate and even if it was, the idea you're promoting (that the type of lock you focus on was used everywhere and was the only type of lock in use) is either false, or outright lie.

Unseen Servant can't pick ANY lock. The type is irrelevant. It doesn't matter on which side of the door the lock is...unless it have a key, it's out of luck. If the door isn't locked, it obviously can open it...if it can get to other side, which it propably can't... that was the whole point of the first conversation.

[GraakosGraakos]

Your opening message and half the replies you've made sound like you're very fanny troubled. If your DM says Unseen Servant can do all that OP nonsense you think it can, go for it, but RAW and RAI make it very obviously a magic Butler, not a rogue stand in.

[OldTrees1]

Why don't we all ignore the irrelevant claim about if these locks were used in Europe and look at a more interesting question:

Rogues of the Playground:
I have a door that is locked with a bar on the inside. Please unlock it from the outside.

I have a door with an exterior only lock(say one of those wooden locks). I have been locked inside. How can I unlock the door?


Personally I have a time consuming answer to #1 but I am looking for better answers.

[JoeJ]

Why don't we all ignore the irrelevant claim about if these locks were used in Europe and look at a more interesting question:

Rogues of the Playground:
I have a door that is locked with a bar on the inside. Please unlock it from the outside.

I have a door with an exterior only lock(say one of those wooden locks). I have been locked inside. How can I unlock the door?


Personally I have a time consuming answer to #1 but I am looking for better answers.

The locks in the video have relatively small bolts, maybe 2 inches wide by 1/2 inch thick or less. A thin saw blade slipped between the door and the frame would be through that in a matter of minutes. Powdered chalk will help keep the saw from binding and make things go a little faster. If the bolt were made of metal instead of wood you'd want a saw with smaller teeth and some light oil as a lubricant. It would take a bit longer, too, but still not all that long.

edit: This assumes, of course, that you don't care about being able to lock the door again once you're done.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rogues of the Playground:
I have a door that is locked with a bar on the inside. Please unlock it from the outside.
Slide something thin and possibly bladed between the door and the doorframe and wiggle in the correct direction, or even saw through the bolt. Looking at the locks in the video there looks like there should be plenty of room for, say, a small saw that could easily be part of your thief's tools.

Not to mention the fact that if the door can be locked from the outside, presumably the mechanism is accessible from both sides.

[Darth Ultron]

sorry but if you want historical accuracy then there is no lock picking at night, you cant have it both ways.



There is a lot of history from a lot of places. Not just Europe. And for ever 'wild unique extreme' lock, there were a hundred basic ones.

Even in the modern day you can get all sorts of locks.....but 9 out of 10 you encounter will be the same.

[Spiryt]

Slide something thin and possibly bladed between the door and the doorframe and wiggle in the correct direction, or even saw through the bolt. Looking at the locks in the video there looks like there should be plenty of room for, say, a small saw that could easily be part of your thief's tools.
.

Sawing trough the bar is simple and obvious enough, I believe that we're more interested in actual 'picking' of such simple lock from outside.

Which indeed seem extremely hard.

Also, ff the door and door frame are a bit interlocked, so the space between them, and the bar are covered, it's pretty much impossible to even saw it off.

Thief would have to somehow destroy the wood part of door/frame covering the bar. Which is a lot of additional work.


Thieves are notorious for not wanting confrontation;

Well, 'common people' also generally dislike confrontation with thieves, besides, if a thief picks lock silently enough, he can still rob you without confrontation. While you sleep, for simplest example.

So a lock that works only from the inside still has plenty of utility.

[JoeJ]

Also, ff the door and door frame are a bit interlocked, so the space between them, and the bar are covered, it's pretty much impossible to even saw it off.

Thief would have to somehow destroy the wood part of door/frame covering the bar. Which is a lot of additional work.

Drill a hole to stick a small saw blade through. It's a bit more time consuming but not hugely so.

[Spiryt]

Drill a hole to stick a small saw blade through. It's a bit more time consuming but not hugely so.

Yeah, although it would likely have to be rather large hole. Allowing enough range of motions to actually saw trough any wider locking beam.

And in object that's better protected than some ordinary home, one could easily expect keeper spending some money to protect the edge of the door with something that's not very easy to drill trough.

Some cast-iron would be obvious enough and used in ancient doors from that reason.

[Joe dirt]

Why don't we all ignore the irrelevant claim about if these locks were used in Europe and look at a more interesting question:

Rogues of the Playground:
I have a door that is locked with a bar on the inside. Please unlock it from the outside.

I have a door with an exterior only lock(say one of those wooden locks). I have been locked inside. How can I unlock the door?


Personally I have a time consuming answer to #1 but I am looking for better answers.

thank you for the rational response, i got a lot of hate mail for pointing out certain things... you have hit the nail on the head of the key question

[JoeJ]

Yeah, although it would likely have to be rather large hole. Allowing enough range of motions to actually saw trough any wider locking beam.

And in object that's better protected than some ordinary home, one could easily expect keeper spending some money to protect the edge of the door with something that's not very easy to drill trough.

Some cast-iron would be obvious enough and used in ancient doors from that reason.

Which would definitely take longer, although a determined thief with tools will get through eventually. (I speak from the experience of having once cut a hole through the cinder block foundation of a house with hammer and chisel in order to install an air conditioner.) The point of static security, of course, is not to stop burglars, but to delay them long enough for somebody to notice what they're doing and put a stop to it. And at some point, it's less trouble to just wait until your target comes out.

[Belac93]

{scrubbed}

Although, I guess this is a D&D forum. Realism doesn't come into it much. If we want pick-able locks, why are you saying we can't have them? Why not just remove them from your games?

{scrubbed}

[JackPhoenix]

Although, I guess this is a D&D forum. Realism doesn't come into it much. If we want pick-able locks, why are you saying we can't have them? Why not just remove them from your games?

Because he wants to have super-Unseen Servant and we shot his ideas down because that's not how the spell (or even the general rules) work

[Captbrannigan]

Why don't we all ignore the irrelevant claim about if these locks were used in Europe and look at a more interesting question:

Rogues of the Playground:
I have a door that is locked with a bar on the inside. Please unlock it from the outside.

I have a door with an exterior only lock(say one of those wooden locks). I have been locked inside. How can I unlock the door?


Personally I have a time consuming answer to #1 but I am looking for better answers.



Thieves’ Tools: This set of tools includes a small file, a set of lock picks, a small mirror mounted on a metal handle, a set of narrow-bladed scissors, and a pair of pliers.
Proficiency with these tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks.

#1 Find another entrance/scale the wall. Wait for morning to ambush the first person to come out. Use a crowbar and Athletics to pry the door off it's hinges/break it down.

#2 Welcome to jail! Persuade the guard. Fake your death and ambush the guard. Serve your time.


Depending on circumstances those options could work. I'm of the opinion a well barred door would require significant strength or time to break through, neither of which sound like applications of dexterity or thieves tools. In many circumstances I imagine a door barred from the inside is effectively impassable, and an alternate path is likely to be more efficient.


Let's say type A doors are barred/blocked/jammed from the inside and don't open from the outside without a battering ram. Type B doors require activating a switch/lever from either side, and would otherwise have to be broken down. Type C doors have a padlock/keyhole that's only accessible from one side, and again require brute strength over dexterity to bypass. Type D doors have a keyhole or the padlock is accessible through a crack and can be lockpicked or battered down. Type E have no lock and are simply opened/kicked down for fun.

Type A: 15% of cases. (ex. Armoire against the door).
Type B: 4%. (ex. Portaculis).
Type C: 1%. (ex. Safe door).
Type D: 80%. (ex. Cemetery gate).
Type E: n/a. (ex. Closet door).

[bid]

You keep talking about one sided locks and refuse to acknowledge that these are a less than 150 year old design.
Padlocks are way older than that and fit the description.

[georgie_leech]

Padlocks are way older than that and fit the description.

They also tend to not be the sort of lock that you can unlock from the other side, what with them not having another side in the first place. The one sided locks he was referring to are the sort you find in modern doors; he was arguing an US could move through a crack or something and unlock doors from the other side. Thus the current sarcastic stretch of using unusual locks as an argument that no locks could be picked anywhere if you want historical accuracy.

Putting aside the debunking going on about that upthread, I couldn't care less about historical accuracy anyway. Themes are important though, and modern style locks clash with the medieval aesthetic anyway, so...

[Vogonjeltz]

some people think D&D should be historically accurate, i happen to not think this way actually but if this path is pursued then yes rogues would have serious limitations

I mean, Quest for Glory II: Trial by Fire covers this pretty routinely in that most locked doors are barred from the inside, requiring a character to either wait till the owner is out (and thus can not bar the door) or kick the door down (forgoing stealth entirely).

[CantigThimble]

I mean, Quest for Glory II: Trial by Fire covers this pretty routinely in that most locked doors are barred from the inside, requiring a character to either wait till the owner is out (and thus can not bar the door) or kick the door down (forgoing stealth entirely).

This does make sense historically. Thieves weren't interested in confrontation and wouldn't be breaking into places that were currently occupied.

[JackPhoenix]

This does make sense historically. Thieves weren't interested in confrontation and wouldn't be breaking into places that were currently occupied.

To OP's credit (shocking, I know), his example uses an assassin trying to get inside locked house to kill the owner, not a thief.

[Elderand]

This does make sense historically. Thieves weren't interested in confrontation and wouldn't be breaking into places that were currently occupied.

You say this as if thieves don't exist anymore or that modern ones seek out confrontation.

[CantigThimble]

You say this as if thieves don't exist anymore or that modern ones seek out confrontation.

That was not my intention, I was talking about barred doors, not the nature of thievery.

[Professor Gnoll]

{scrubbed}

[Theodoxus]

"Rogues in D&D could never pick medieval doors at night" because rogues in D&D aren't in medieval times... pretty straightforward there.

Nothing to see here, certainly nothing worth 4 pages of "discussion".

[Professor Gnoll]

{scrubbed}

[RickAllison]

I think the question here is if an epic-level rogue could unlock the secrets of Joe Dirt's thought process.

I think that's a DC 40 check, one that cannot be completed without the assistance of the gods. These are things man was not meant to know.

[JellyPooga]

1 and 2 and 3 my claim that a lock is "not pickable" stems from the fact that a particular type of ancient lock was found so much it was used from ancient egypt to japan and the reason it was unpickable is because it was a lock found on the inside of the door where the thief/rogue is not... you can have all the skeleton keys you want if the door is basically barred from the inside... yes you would need a crowbar to equivalent to get past this kind of security and a strength check to get past and breaking apart a wood door is not going to be stealthy.

*Buzzer* Nope. Assuming you're having to deal with a lock that's on the wrong side of the door; the type of lock is irrelevant. A modern-day real-life lock with 32 pins and a code combination is just as "unpickable" if it only locks from one side. In that case, the only thing that matters to the potential infiltrator is the quality and substance of the bolt.

A simple thin-bladed saw will do the trick for these simple wooden locks. No crowbar, boots or significant noise required to bypass a wooden bar on a door and realistically, that's all we're talking about; a relatively small bar on a door. In fact, you'd be better served by a larger, heavier and/or denser bar than this type of lock if you're locking yourself inside a building.

If you don't fancy taking the time to cut through a bolt, then you can always try lifting the bar. On a large double-door, this may not be a prospect, as the bar will inevitably be too heavy, but for the casual home-owner? I'm thinking their bar isn't so heavy that dedicated tools won't be able to fudge things "just right" to loosen that particular lock.


4 nobody is talking about chest, yes lock picks would work

I thought we were talking about rogues infiltrating residences at night. If I want to protect my valuables, I'm putting a lock on more than just my front door.


5 the lock was made of wood

Which is one of the many reasons it's not infallible, by any standard. This style of lock is bad. Your claim that rogues couldn't possibly infiltrate a house because of them is patently wrong.

[RaynorReynolds]

{scrubbed}

[Joe dirt]

to all my haters, just asked my 2 dms what they think of the current thread and found out who cares they rule locks work like todays lock... unseen servant and typical assassins for the win!!!

[RickAllison]

to all my haters, just asked my 2 dms what they think of the current thread and found out who cares they rule locks work like todays lock... unseen servant and typical assassins for the win!!!

Yeah, they can rule like that. As a DM, one could rule whatever the heck they want via Rule 0. That does not, however, make it right as the rules are written or make your arguments correct. Basically, all the commentary from your DMs indicate is that you are allowed to do with those DMs. Nothing more.

My DM rules that Mage Armor gives +1 AC when combined with other armor and that Tavern Brawler upgrades the damage dice of monks. It's not RAW, but it is his ruling. If I try to state that as fact on a public forum, BS will rightfully be called on me because that is not how the mechanic functions.

Be happy you have such permissive DMs, because that argument is not going to fly for anyone who follows RAW or RAI.

[JackPhoenix]

to all my haters, just asked my 2 dms what they think of the current thread and found out who cares they rule locks work like todays lock... unseen servant and typical assassins for the win!!!

So, you're conceding defeat, then? Because unless you forgot, it was YOU who brought the ideas that the locks in D&D can't be picked because they are based on some obscure medieval type. Oh, and Unseen Servant still can't open the locks unless they are unlocked or it's got a key.

[MBControl]

hmmm hhmmmm . . . . Booooooooo!

[Regitnui]

I don't get it. Is Joe going home now? Can we get either one of his DMs on here to read the threads he put up; "I had an awesome idea" and "screw you that idea was awesome"?

[Professor Gnoll]

{scrubbed}

[AvatarVecna]

This is the best thread since the Sorcerer King.

I dont' know about anybody else, but JD's posts have been pinging some pretty similar posting idiosyncrasies (in regards to spelling, grammar, and particular capitalization) that remind me of the very same threads...but I'm sure it's an unrelated issue.


I think that's a DC 40 check, one that cannot be completed without the assistance of the gods.

While I certainly understand the joke being told here...DC 40 is literally impossible? Since when? Rogue 20, expertise in the appropriate ability check, relevant stat pumped to 20, and an Ioun Stone of Mastery gives you +19; even a single other point from somewhere (such as from getting something to boost the stat to 22, or having a friend pop an Enhance Ability spell) would do the trick. Sure, it'd be a low chance, but it's hardly impossible.

And now you've got me wondering what the absolute highest DC one can reach is. I'm off to find out.

[Professor Gnoll]

While I certainly understand the joke being told here...DC 40 is literally impossible? Since when? Rogue 20, expertise in the appropriate ability check, relevant stat pumped to 20, and an Ioun Stone of Mastery gives you +19; even a single other point from somewhere (such as from getting something to boost the stat to 22, or having a friend pop an Enhance Ability spell) would do the trick. Sure, it'd be a low chance, but it's hardly impossible.

And now you've got me wondering what the absolute highest DC one can reach is. I'm off to find out.
Actually, my sources say that you're wrong. Such as this one right here, which clearly states that I am right:

Rogue 20, expertise in the appropriate ability check, relevant stat pumped to 20, and an Ioun Stone of Mastery gives you +19; even a single other point from somewhere (such as from getting something to boost the stat to 22, or having a friend pop an Enhance Ability spell) would do the trick. Sure, it'd be a low chance, but it's hardly impossible.
Guess you were dropped on your head as a child.

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, my sources say that you're wrong. Such as this one right here, which clearly states that I am right:

Guess you were dropped on your head as a child.

I knew I shouldn't've dived into the shallow end so many times!

[Azreal]

I would like to thank Joe Dirt for this thread and the massive amusement it brought to me.

Sorry you all were dropped on your heads though.

[Keltest]

{scrubbed}

[AvatarVecna]

{scrubbed}

[Keltest]

{scrubbed}

[Angelmaker]

Its not as good as the thread about "perception and ranged attacks", which went on for solid 50 pages. It took me days to read. :smallbiggrin:

[smcmike]

His style actually reminds me of KenM, the famous and brilliant troll. Same sort of sideways logic and odd grammar.

[Douche]

Simple solution: lock door from outside as it is inaccessible from the inside. Set the house on fire. Inhabitants escape out the windows. Go inside as it is burning down and grab whatever trinket you were planning on burglarizing. Abscond into the night.

Unfortunately, all the lockpicks in the world will do nothing to stop the insurmountable technology of a deadbolt. That's why the only thieves tools I need are a crowbar and a 2nd level "silence" spell

[Kish]

Who wants historical accuracy?

[Joe dirt]

Who wants historical accuracy?

i suppose some people do... i am not included

[woodlandkammao]

Our beloved joe has returned to us!!!!

[GraakosGraakos]

Here, have a link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD) It's got a good mix of hilarity and solid char-op advice/tricks.

How did you poor forum goers even retain your sanity after that incredible onslaught of his logic and rules mastery?

[Serket]

If you want to get tediously realistic about it, then the door should probably be barred while someone is inside. Barring a door is really simple in terms of engineering, relatively cheap to do, and really secure. You can't pick it because there's nothing to pick. The downside is you can only do it while you're inside.

If you lived in a world with arcane tricksters and other sneaky magic types, you'd probably pay a little more to put some pins into the bar, so that you could pin it in place and they couldn't mage hand it out of the way. Again, not expensive or hard.

But realism is pointless unless we're aiming for it. If a group wants their game to feature night murders, then the group needs to set up IC cultures and technology to enable that. And if they don't, then barred doors and shutters will stop most would-be invaders.

[Serket]

Unfortunately, all the lockpicks in the world will do nothing to stop the insurmountable technology of a deadbolt. That's why the only thieves tools I need are a crowbar and a 2nd level "silence" spell

Yeah, that. I should really take Silence.:smallsmile:

[RickAllison]

Yeah, that. I should really take Silence.:smallsmile:

Had a monklock with that. This last session, when he was lost to another plane, the rest of the party opened up his bag to find he had more money and potions than the rest of the party combined (including group funds).

[Theodoxus]

I'm at work and have to sneak around the boards, so can't take the time to search, but I thought there was a big old thread about how magic and mundane castle types don't mix well. That people living in a magically capable universe wouldn't bother with castles as we know it - teleportation and invisibility make siege-warfare pointless (among a lot of other magical effects).

I'm sure the same applies with locks. We don't put a lot of thought into how "mundane" magics would affect day to day life. Even JK Rowling missed a lot in her descriptions of the Weasley's day to day magic life... it's rather difficult to think up the unknown.

Point is, when you're trying to keep your things from being burgled and you're facing off with what we would consider a 'high-tech' thief... knock spells and silence; LOS teleportation, gaseous mobility, even simple illusions and invisibility... the only practical way to ward yourself is either not own more than you can carry, or surround your property in an anti-magic zone and spend the money for strong locks and guards...

Just as we have a technological war of one-up-manship between locks and robbers, so too would the magical thieving worlds we like to play in.

[Kish]

i suppose some people do... i am not included
You puzzle me, dude. Was this entire thread about "D&D shouldn't care about historical accuracy because it would wreck the rogue class if it did?" I can think of significantly more immediate problems for spellcasting classes.

[Regitnui]

lPoint is, when you're trying to keep your things from being burgled and you're facing off with what we would consider a 'high-tech' thief... knock spells and silence; LOS teleportation, gaseous mobility, even simple illusions and invisibility... the only practical way to ward yourself is either not own more than you can carry, or surround your property in an anti-magic zone and spend the money for strong locks and guards...

Just as we have a technological war of one-up-manship between locks and robbers, so too would the magical thieving worlds we like to play in.

Another reason why I like Eberron. The average thief is an Expert, not a PC Rogue, and therefore can't be a living lock destroyer.

[Demonslayer666]

"Who wants historical accuracy in D&D?" - accurate or not, this lock is extremely simple to "pick" and is far from proof that rogues are unable to easily get past this. If modern locksmiths can pick today's locks, this would be trivial. This looks like something you could open by tapping the bottom of the lock and moving the bolt back if you had access to the mechanism.

"Doors locked/bared from the inside are impossible to pick." - this is completely false unless all other means of access are completely prohibited - the door, frame, and walls would have to be made of indestructible material with seamless gaps. Picking a door that is locked/bared from the inside simply means you have to gain access to the locking mechanism. You could bump the door, slip something between the gaps in the door, drill a hole to gain access to the bar or its supports.

Rogues don't limit themselves to only using lock picks to unlock doors. They use all manners of tools; shims, acid, lube, chisels, files, drills, saws, magnets, string, snips, needle nose pliers, ball peen hammers, cutting torches, etc. Ok, maybe not cutting torches, but you get the idea.

[krugaan]

How did you poor forum goers even retain your sanity after that incredible onslaught of his logic and rules mastery?

proficiency in wis saves.

[RickAllison]

Rogues don't limit themselves to only using lock picks to unlock doors. They use all manners of tools; shims, acid, lube, chisels, files, drills, saws, magnets, string, snips, needle nose pliers, ball peen hammers, cutting torches, etc. Ok, maybe not cutting torches, but you get the idea.

Challenge accepted.

[AvatarVecna]

i suppose some people do... i am not included

...hence why you were arguing that rogues can't pick locks because it's historically inaccurate?


How did you poor forum goers even retain your sanity after that incredible onslaught of his logic and rules mastery?

To be totally honest, I'm not sure I did; that particular mess inspired me to create Khepri (the build in my signature, so named in honor of Our Lady Of Perpetual Escalation).

[Regitnui]

"Doors locked/bared from the inside are impossible to pick." - this is completely false unless all other means of access are completely prohibited - the door, frame, and walls would have to be made of indestructible material with seamless gaps.

The old "fighter's lockpick"; the lock might be made from adamantine and made by dwarves, but the door is still wooden.

[pwykersotz]

The old "fighter's lockpick"; the lock might be made from adamantine and made by dwarves, but the door is still wooden.

Unless it's adamantine too, in which case use the walls.
Unless those are adamantine too, in which case use the floor or ceiling.
Unless those are adamantine too, in which case set up a large enough pulley system to remove the impenetrable room and sell it to the nearest kingdom.

[CantigThimble]

Unless it's adamantine too, in which case use the walls.
Unless those are adamantine too, in which case use the floor or ceiling.
Unless those are adamantine too, in which case set up a large enough pulley system to remove the impenetrable room and sell it to the nearest kingdom.

Thus began the legendary "Adamantine Legion' whose bloody reign lasted twelve centuries.

[krugaan]

Unless it's adamantine too, in which case use the walls.
Unless those are adamantine too, in which case use the floor or ceiling.
Unless those are adamantine too, in which case set up a large enough pulley system to remove the impenetrable room and sell it to the nearest kingdom.

Then someone with a bigger pulley comes along and steals the whole kingdom. It's an endless escalation that doesn't benefit anyone but the pulley salesmen.

Let's have a gentleman's agreement: I stop using adamantium if you'll employ rogues to deal with doors, mkay?

Oh wait, apparently rogues can't pick locks or open doors.

[georgie_leech]

To be totally honest, I'm not sure I did; that particular mess inspired me to create Khepri (the build in my signature, so named in honor of Our Lady Of Perpetual Escalation).

I've never heard that title for her before, but it's now my favourite :smallbiggrin:

[Demonslayer666]

Adamantium walls, lol. That reminds me of a story...

"The double doors to the temple are 8 feet high and a foot thick and made of gold." ~ DM
"The doors are solid gold?" ~us (4th level characters)
"Yep." ~DM
"We take the doors back to town."

/dmfacepalm

The rest of the night degrades into crunching numbers trying to figure out the weight of the doors and converting it to gold pieces. We never did explore the temple. (yes, this actually happened in a game session of ours)

[AvatarVecna]

Then someone with a bigger pulley comes along and steals the whole kingdom. It's an endless escalation that doesn't benefit anyone but the pulley salesmen.

It's a circle, man!! We're all prisoners, man!!


I've never heard that title for her before, but it's now my favourite :smallbiggrin:

And yea, did Our Lady descend from the heavens, riding the shoulders that once held up the sky. And lo, did she smite the multitude before her, that multitude which would not acknowledge her divine purpose, and the Sun of the sky descended at her command, to burn away all that was displeasing to her sight!

[Theodoxus]

Unless it's adamantine too, in which case use the walls.
Unless those are adamantine too, in which case use the floor or ceiling.
Unless those are adamantine too, in which case set up a large enough pulley system to remove the impenetrable room and sell it to the nearest kingdom.

Wasn't this a scene from Terminator: Genesys... or at least an Arnold movie... goes through the wall instead of the steel reinforced door...

[Keltest]

Adamantium walls, lol. That reminds me of a story...

"The double doors to the temple are 8 feet high and a foot thick and made of gold." ~ DM
"The doors are solid gold?" ~us (4th level characters)
"Yep." ~DM
"We take the doors back to town."

/dmfacepalm

The rest of the night degrades into crunching numbers trying to figure out the weight of the doors and converting it to gold pieces. We never did explore the temple. (yes, this actually happened in a game session of ours)

Ive got a quote in my signature to that effect.

[Serket]

"Doors locked/bared from the inside are impossible to pick." - this is completely false unless all other means of access are completely prohibited - the door, frame, and walls would have to be made of indestructible material with seamless gaps. Picking a door that is locked/bared from the inside simply means you have to gain access to the locking mechanism. You could bump the door, slip something between the gaps in the door, drill a hole to gain access to the bar or its supports.

Emphasis mine.
No, because context. The context was housebreaking. The door doesn't need to be completely impervious to stop you using it. It just needs to be difficult enough that opening it takes too long and/or makes too much noise. Maybe you could find a crack (genuinely unlikely in context, cracks in doors are not normal in places that are cold) and slide a tiny saw through and then saw through that bar? Okay, but that takes a lot of time and makes a distinct sawing noise and frankly, how long do you want to be stood in front of a door doing something suspicious? You could bring a portable ram and have your str 20 mate smack it a couple of times too, but either way the householder probably knows you're there and the night watch might also be on their way.

Now sure, if it's a locked door in a dungeon, and it's just in your way, then (ludicrous adamantium and magic defences aside) you'll get through eventually. But "it is possible to get past this" is not the same as "getting past this whilst being stealthy is possible in a reasonable amount of time".

The "casting silence" plan is better. And the "wearing a disguise and legging it after a very short visit" is also better.

[Vogonjeltz]

To OP's credit (shocking, I know), his example uses an assassin trying to get inside locked house to kill the owner, not a thief.

Interestingly enough one of the scenarios for QFGII is where the owner comes home in a drunken stupor while you're burgling his safe. If the motive was to break in and kill them, I'm pretty certain the method used would have worked fine: Enter while they're out (and thus can not bar the door if they themselves wish to get in) and then wait.

Boring maybe, but functional.

[theMycon]

found out through some research that medieval doors needed to have locks on both sides of a door or at the very least a bar on the inside, meaning if the lock/bar on the inside was locked the rogue could never get to it to "pick it"... breaking fantasy art rogue fans hearts the world over... the mental picture of a rogue picking a lock and sneaking into a house in the dead of night to assassinate the owner is pure fantasy.

maybe rogues could get in some other way but not by lock picking, sorry skyrim fans.

the doors could be locked from the outside buuuuut this would trap anyone on the inside and would be only done if everyone in the house had to leave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zp2Xi5OnUM

and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4peBi5Bg7YQ
Since I got tired of reading the bickering after two pages, I didn't finish reading the thread. Here are ideas I figured out on how to defeat the deadbolts in the lock shown in video 1, while watching the video.

Put saw through opening between door and frame. Push saw forward. Pull saw back. Repeat as necessary. You now have two pieces of wood, one on door and another on adjacent wall.
Locate deadbolt. Stick dagger through wood. If deadbolt is significantly thicker than dagger, move down 1" and repeat. Instead of a thick piece of wood, there is now 2+ thin pieces of wood which will break/cut easily.
Find nails holding the slab of wood which catches deadbolt when closed. Using a metal cylinder about as thick as the nails, push them out. Catch is no longer attached to (pick one: door, adjacent wall).
Get long piece of metal, straight but with a right-angle bend near one end. Pull locked door just enough to create a crack you can slip this piece of metal through. Now, push deadbolt. (ever see someone use a coat hanger to open a car lock? same principle.)
Go through window.

Since the lock mechanisms are just simpler versions of normal locks today, I'll assume we can all figure those out.

[JumboWheat01]

How did you poor forum goers even retain your sanity after that incredible onslaught of his logic and rules mastery?

Sanity's over-rated anyway.

[Demonslayer666]

Emphasis mine.
No, because context. The context was housebreaking. The door doesn't need to be completely impervious to stop you using it. It just needs to be difficult enough that opening it takes too long and/or makes too much noise. Maybe you could find a crack (genuinely unlikely in context, cracks in doors are not normal in places that are cold) and slide a tiny saw through and then saw through that bar? Okay, but that takes a lot of time and makes a distinct sawing noise and frankly, how long do you want to be stood in front of a door doing something suspicious? You could bring a portable ram and have your str 20 mate smack it a couple of times too, but either way the householder probably knows you're there and the night watch might also be on their way.
...
The "casting silence" plan is better. And the "wearing a disguise and legging it after a very short visit" is also better.
This easily applies to housebreaking. You do not need to be completely silent. Small saws make very little noise, and can be quieted with foam, paste, sawdust, etc. If it takes a lot of time, then just work on it over a few nights. Acid is silent. If you are attempting to pick a lock under observation, you are doing it wrong. In that case, pick their pocket and get the key.

Silence is a great plan, but I never claimed there were not better plans. I simply said how easily a rogue could get past this lock.

[YCombinator]

Hello,

I am a lock picker, DM, and an owner of one of those wooden locks here.

First of all, I agree with what a lot of folks have said about historical accuracy vs. D&D. We try to be as accurate as possible, but when inaccuracy makes the game more fun, we go for the historically inaccurate version every time. Examples include Fireball, Feather fall, and women being attracted to us. ;)

Secondly I own one of these wooden locks. I bought it at a Kasbah in Morocco. The owner and tour guide spent his time making replicas of the wooden locks that used to be used when his Kasbah was actually in use hundreds of years ago.

The doors that had these locks usually had holes in them for your hand to go through. You would reach into the door with your hand and the key and slide the key into the lock, which was mounted on the back of the door. How, then, was there not a giant 3" x 3" square that someone could shoot arrows through or spy through? Generally there was a wooden box around the hand hole that, at least topologically, made that area part of the outside of the door.

Given that construction, it's very easy to imagine picking one of these locks from the outside and yes, they could be actuated from the inside as well using an opening on the other side in some cases.

There's definitely a possibility that a person uses just a giant bar and locks it from inside. Locking themselves in and no key could open it because there is no key. It's just a bar. I am not a historian, so I have no idea how likely this is, or how many people opted to do that over using locks. I suggest DMs use both depending on how hard they want it to be.

[Aldarin]

Did he ever say he wanted historical accuracy? He seemed to be saying the exact opposite.

I know I don't want historical accuracy, I'm in Faerun, not medieval Germany. It seems fine to me to say that the 'requires key from either side' style locks are much more common in D&D than they were historically for whatever technological or economic reason.
Amen to that

[Flickerdart]

Point is, when you're trying to keep your things from being burgled and you're facing off with what we would consider a 'high-tech' thief... knock spells and silence; LOS teleportation, gaseous mobility, even simple illusions and invisibility... the only practical way to ward yourself is either not own more than you can carry, or surround your property in an anti-magic zone and spend the money for strong locks and guards...

None of this is really necessary if you're not going to be a target in the first place. The kind of people who cast knock and silence and turn into mist and teleport are not the kind of people who are robbing wooden shacks. As an owner of a wooden shack, the bar on the door will work just fine.

[Alejandro]

Tool that my rogue needs: A pet rust monster, that has been shrunken down to the size of a mouse, kept in a wooden case. :D

[krugaan]

Tool that my rogue needs: A pet rust monster, that has been shrunken down to the size of a mouse, kept in a wooden case. :D

... Pokémon?

[Alejandro]

... Pokémon?

I'd name him Bolt Cutter :)

[Lvl 2 Expert]

A bar on the inside? Sounds like there's a good chance you can "flipper" (I have no clue how to call this in English, pinballing just sounds all wrong, but I mean sticking something thin between the slit to push the bar up) or fish (getting a loop of rope through any sort of slot or window and pulling the bar up) it. It's significantly more difficult with a bar that slides rather then just dropping into a slot, but if you get any sort of grip, you can move it. Along with crowbars (or even just a sturdy screwdriver) and lock bumping those two are probably the most commonly used ways to get past a lock in the real world. About half of modern people don't know how these super simple methods work and what to do against it, I can only imagine how many medieval farmers were into the finer points of breaking and entering.

I don't suppose you'll believe me if I claim I don't know any of this for the wrong reasons?

[theMycon]

I don't suppose you'll believe me if I claim I don't know any of this for the wrong reasons?

As an American who assumes that you're also American & the reference to tulips in your location/English as a second language doesn't place you in The Netherlands; I would assume you've called AAA at least once.

Or, possibly, your jerkface cousin locked you in a barn once.

Those're how I figured them out.

[Serket]

This easily applies to housebreaking. You do not need to be completely silent. Small saws make very little noise, and can be quieted with foam, paste, sawdust, etc. If it takes a lot of time, then just work on it over a few nights.

Small saws are also fiddly and annoying, and take longer than large saws. If the bar on the back of the door is 2'*3' (which is not especially large, since this is the most basic level of security here), then sawing through it with a good sized saw and a decent sawing position would take a significant amount of time. Sawing through it with a needle saw that you've slowed down (and damping it with any method will slow it down) to avoid noise is going to take ages.


Acid is silent.

It's also a pain in the arse to work with. Acid isn't like it is on the tv. You don't just pour it on things and watch as they conveniently melt exactly as much as you need them to, in a useful length of time.
You need different caustic liquids for different target materials, so you need a selection. And they tend to create noxious gasses when used. And availability is an issue. And they're not cheap - at the level where you're trying to break a single wooden bar, the cost of an acid vial is so high that it could wipe out your profit for the job. You might also need to drill into the target to get your acid to stay in place and do it's job, which might ruin this as a method for some applications (a door bar being specifically one of them). So when the application doesn't do the job, but the weird smell does wake the dog, you ditch it and plan to come back. But now you're 10gp down and the homeowner can probably find the damage (if htey have a sense of smell) and fix it (it is, after all, a bit of wood).


If it takes a lot of time, then just work on it over a few nights. If you are attempting to pick a lock under observation, you are doing it wrong.

The longer you spend doing a thing, the more chance there is you'll be observed. When you're in a place with lots of people, you have no guarantee you're not being observed. Doing the job quickly is important because it minimises the number of chances people have to spot you. Coming back a second or third night is the opposite of a good idea.


In that case, pick their pocket and get the key.

That's not a bad idea, if you know where they live. Of course, if you're just burgling places at night, you probably don't have an association between the owners and the location.


I simply said how easily a rogue could get past this lock.

It's easy in a game only because the person running the game lets you. And the person running the game only lets you because that's the kind of game you've agreed (whether explicitly or implicitly) that you want to play.
A barred door is by no means an insurmountable defence. But it is really cheap, and difficult enough to defeat that it will put off casual crime. And if someone can defeat it practically, then they're in the next league up and are wasting their time on this peasant bull**** - they should be robbing a place where they can actually make a profit. If you're burgling places whose defences consist of a single door with a single bar on it, then you're at the bottom end of the market. At that level, there's no point burgling a specific house unless you have some inkling there's more in there for some reason. If you're hitting random places, you don't bother with the one who barred their door. You find the one that didn't. The one where the owner passed out drunk and left the door open. The one who forgot to close the shutters. You pick the easy target.

The possibility that you could break into a place if you spent three nights risking your neck and arrest by climbing up onto the roof and slowly sawing through something only makes sense if the place you're breaking into seems to contain a valuable enough payoff to justify three nights of really tedious work. But if it does, then it's likely to have more defences than just that.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread locked for review.

This has gone way off-topic now and I don't see it getting back on track. Thread closed permanently.